Interesting, do you have solid examples of drummers rushing the parts he likes, or slowing down too difficult parts? I don't mean songs, I mean scientific data.

@@jean-christophearsenault2104 No, I've only anecdotal data. Which means, that I see it all the time analysing old records and/or my own experience playing in a band. We switched from a real drummer to an MPC (like Samael 🙂) and the challenges started: Parts were unplayable for the guitar player, the machine "was not tight" etc. Newertheless: this would be a nice paper. I just tried to imagine the interview with the musicans: - "So, why do you think you s##k when you have to play tight to a click?" - "Why do you change the speed by 5bpm within 32 beats, when it is not part of the composition?" Long story short: a band is a system - each elemet will change its behaviour. If you introduce a maschine (or a metronome), this will have a great impact...

@@derived-doom Interesting, thanks for the talk!

ooh I like that! Hadn't thought of that.

DESPACITO!!

Liturgito

Damn you beat me to it, I posted something similar haha

Yeah the "sloppy pivot pulse modulations" (which is what I've been calling them in my notes) definitely happen-the simple version is like when you have a section in "double time" that goes from 100 to 210bpm, where it's clear what they were going for but they got excited and overshot a little. But I don't think that's what's happening here, for two main reasons (should have made a bigger point of this in the video). The more important one is that in this riff they're off by a lot-the actual tempo of the fast parts is roughly 156, and if that were sixteenth notes, eighth note triplets would be at 117, but in this riff the slower sections are around 136bpm. This is more than 10% off (which is kind of the threshold of hearing different note values, I've found), and it's enough that at least to me they sound too wrong to be able to count them like that-I'd have to hear the sixteenth note/eighth note triplet relation, but then stretch it beyond recognition anyway. The "slow" and "fast" tempos are also not all the same even within this section. The other is kind of an "if a tree falls..." argument, in that there's no connective tissue actually in the riff to hint at the pivot pulse. You can mathematically relate any two tempos to each other, of course, but I argue that it only counts as a pivot pulse modulation if the band actually makes it feel like one by using the pivot value in the context of both tempos. So like in my Wormed video (and Entheos video too, and maybe others) I talked about a clear tempo modulation where they use a dotted quarter note as the pivot, and you hear it in both the context of the old tempo and the new tempo. But without precision, and without any music that connects the pivot value on either side of the tempo change, I think that these riffs are definitely direct tempo changes. Also what I was getting at later in this video is that they definitely didn't track this with a click-I think they started using a click at some point in their career, maybe around 2005, but there's no way they tempo mapped this album.

@@metalmusictheory5401 I agree about the tempo maps, there is no good evidence to support that they used a click track. My earlier point, which after re-reading I realize I made poorly, is that these "quarter note/triplet note" modulations, are probably more of a "feel thing" then something planned. That "quarter note/triplet note" modulation" is probably something that was used during a chops building phase, and internalized to the point where it appeared as a natural expression later, akin to how a shred guitarist might practice building speed with a metronome.... Keep up the good work btw...

Same reply as to the similar comment: Yeah the "sloppy pivot pulse modulations" (which is what I've been calling them in my notes) definitely happen-the simple version is like when you have a section in "double time" that goes from 100 to 210bpm, where it's clear what they were going for but they got excited and overshot a little. But I don't think that's what's happening here, for two main reasons (should have made a bigger point of this in the video). The more important one is that in this riff they're off by a lot-the actual tempo of the fast parts is roughly 156, and if that were sixteenth notes, eighth note triplets would be at 117, but in this riff the slower sections are around 136bpm. This is more than 10% off (which is kind of the threshold of hearing different note values, I've found), and it's enough that at least to me they sound too wrong to be able to count them like that-I'd have to hear the sixteenth note/eighth note triplet relation, but then stretch it beyond recognition anyway. The "slow" and "fast" tempos are also not all the same even within this section. The other is kind of an "if a tree falls..." argument, in that there's no connective tissue actually in the riff to hint at the pivot pulse. You can mathematically relate any two tempos to each other, of course, but I argue that it only counts as a pivot pulse modulation if the band actually makes it feel like one by using the pivot value in the context of both tempos. So like in my Wormed video (and Entheos video too, and maybe others) I talked about a clear tempo modulation where they use a dotted quarter note as the pivot, and you hear it in both the context of the old tempo and the new tempo. But without precision, and without any music that connects the pivot value on either side of the tempo change, I think that these riffs are definitely direct tempo changes. Also what I was getting at later in this video is that they definitely didn't track this with a click-I think they started using a click at some point in their career, maybe around 2005, but there's no way they tempo mapped this album.

@DreamPurpleFloyd What you mention is a much more common technique called "metric modulation". That's when tempo changes in integer ratios: 2:3, 3:5, etc. Changing tempos to non related ratios is also common in metal. What's not common and covered in this video is changing tempo back and forth between non related ratios.

That's awesome, amazing interview! That thing about taking the Rolling Stones as an influence is interesting, I hadn't really thought of all the predecessors of this sort of thing outside of metal or in other metal... someone else brought up that Obituary were big into Mercyful Fate, which I had no idea about

@@metalmusictheory5401 We talk about it in both interviews, but I think I may have had in mind the other, older one. He talks about the click track explicitly here. Like a train almost coming off the rails or something like that

*subconscious attempt* i think sounds awesome 😊😈

Yeah a couple other people pointed this out and I had a long response, but basically, I think yes to both-it could be that this was how these changes started and then they drifted, but also I think the cool weird, abruptness is because they're off by enough to be noticeable