I love how humble Penrose is at the end when he alludes to "those impossible triangles...like Escher." They're called Penrose triangles, named after and popularized and independently discovered by Penrose and his father.

One day this humble brilliant minded person will win a Noble Prize.❤

I believe that Penrose is one of the greatest thinkers today. He did so many brilliant contributions to general relativity, but still he has bigger picture in mind. I admire him.

Watching these Rodger Penrose videos puts a smile on my face.

This is a brilliant and inspiring discussion. I love it when a scientist/mathematician such as Penrose admits there are mysteries about existence and consciousness. All too often these days so many physicists and philosophers are rather mindless materialists, and seem to lack the imagination and curiosity to face these enigmas. Perhaps there is a certain amount of mental pain involved to doing so. William James regarded the thought about "why there is something rather than nothing" as the darkest emotion evoking thought we humans can have. And the issue Penrose mentions of whether the mathematical world has an independent existence is in my opinion a real issue, but I would wager many contemporary particle physicists and cosmologists would not even understand it….or, if they did, would dismiss it as silly. Well, maybe these questions cannot be answered in any satisfactory way, but to me it is a source of wonder just to contemplate them. I am very glad there are people like Penrose.

This morning I was thinking about Monism & Dualism hoping for a third option. Here it is, Trialism, sprinkled with a little bit of humour to make it fun. Thank you, Sirs!💯

"...Even most of the time mathematicians are thinking about other things." LOL

Makes sense. 1) We can see mathematics exists, even if it is not tangible. 2) We know we are conscious (cogito ergo sum). 3) We can see physical reality exists. Mathematics explains physical reality. Our brains are constructed by material reality. The consciousness which arises therein has access to mathematics. All three realities must exist independently of the other (or in their own right) in order for the other two to be coherently explainable.

funny that the interviewer says "Escher - like" impossible triangles, actually Penrose and his father made these triangles popular and escher took inspiration from them. It is also called "penrose-triangle"

Thanks for presenting.

I love listening to Penrose!

The way I look at things is that there is a physical world, an abstract world, and a conscious world that bridges the other two worlds. With consciousness we can see things in the abstract world and reify them in the physical world.

Great discussions on this channel. I'll be back for more!

Plato's cave comes to mind!

Fantastic.

There once was a lady named Bright, Who traveled much faster than light, She started one day in a relative way, And returned on the previous night! What shape is the Universe in? The Universe is in Great Shape for an Old Universe!

The question is a value judgement! Everything exists, and we value some things over others.

I like this dude...

Very surprising that Roger would paint matter, mind and mathematics as though they were separate realities. Mathematics describes a set of relationships within the physical world. The mere fact that it can be done independent of any material context does not mean that it is a separate reality. He says that at around 9:00, yet his language before that suggests something else. He also uses the term "kind of existence." That makes a bit more sense to me but I still don't see much value in the distinctions he seems to be drawing. The very framing of the question is problematic: "What Things Really Exist?" The first question could be "exist in what sense?"

Roger Penrose is the most theoretical-physicist-esque name ever.

This analysis is intimately connected to whether senses arise out of physical reality, or vice versa. Intutively, a camera can't see itself seeing. Why should brain?

Probably a unified understanding should overcome the apparent separation between observation (physical world), conceptualization (mathematics) and observer/conceptualizer (brain), as from this rise mysterious concepts like matter, universe and consciousness in the first place.

A great example of intellectual dilemma comments: eg "beginning of time" and "timelessness"; "the mind could not have constructed the universe because there was no physical reality at the beginning of time". Such dilemmas come from the relative mind trying to figure out non duality. Only contradiction appears, even for wonderful intellects like Sir Roger. Clear validation for those in the process of transcending the world of duality. Consciousness is infinite. Material reality ebbs and flows.

Thanks be to the goodness, Sir Roger Penrose, the three realms assume be in the correspondence with Planck world, Dirac Sea and Metaverse the Divinal.

me pierdo algunas cosas,por que no funcionan los subtitulos?

If we are the conscious then we have no place to say it is everything or insignificant. In truth it is all we have.

They should broadcast *this* instead of the BS evening news! We don't need any more simpletons.

Roger Penrose is an excellent philosopher, independent from his other gifts in other fields. Maybe he is also good at slam dunking, making his native geniuses a trifecta.

Thanks for the discussion . However to be more comprehensive such concepts as subsist ( abatisthasti), tistati (exist) ,atiitisthati (overexist ) and adhi tisthati (superexist ) and such concepts as illusion (mayika) or shadow (chhaya ) or kaya (embodyment ) etc etc need to be discussed at length

Logic does have its limits, I will grant that. There are a panoply of paradoxes in pure and applied logic. A canonical case in point of the latter being Gödel's first incompleteness theorem. But it is hard to deny the rational or Leibnizian character of existence.

The universe behaves more like a song than an equation. A song contains mathematical properties but math does not resemble music.

You are the eyes through which Creation sees itself. When you wake up from a dream, you realize that everything in the dream was you. You were creating it. It's no different in what we call "real life". Each and every person is you. The one consciousness looking through every eye, under every rock, within every particle. ~ Excerpt from the documentary "Inner Worlds, Outer Worlds", by Daniel Schmidt I am the other you. We Are All One. #SacredGeometry #UniversalGeometry #LanguageOfLight #Mathematics #UniversalMathematics #Math #Philosophy #Art #Geometry #Symmetry #Fractals #Cycles #Universe #Harmony #Vibration #Frequency #Energy #Hermeticism #Life #Manifestation #Alchemy #SpiritualScience #UnifiedScience #Consciousness #Education #Knowledge

what is fundamental? consciousness, matter/energy, or math? which one can exist without the others? thats the one that really exists.

Phenomenon. How can you confuse the singular with the plural...

Mathematical realism is probably the way to go in my opinion. What is astonishing and overlooked is that we live in a Universe described by mathematical equations, abstract relationships that arn't actually physical. Actually everything we use to describe the universe is actually physical, its thought, and ideas. It reminds me of a quote from Niels Bohr where he says "The thing we call real are described by things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasnt profoundly shocked you

Can anyone upload the full interview please?

Sweet

Penrose - Probably the greatest mathematician that ever lived

I think that the explanation here is that there is a conserved quantity based on the principle that we consider only a part of the total realm of Nature, and that that part has been "educated" by the selection means provided by the principles that can be afforded the segment involved in our observation into enacting the processes of consciousness. Like the person seeing by use of his eyes to take in a landscape which is his main awareness while most of his substance contributes more indirectly to the act of seeing, the appreciation by minds of the universe, including appreciation of this sentance, is only the awareness inherent in the part of the universe that constitutes the mind's experience. The rest of the entire universe is participating indirectly in experience, for instance stochastic support by being the background for the anthropomorphic principle. The reason this is logical to believe is that there is the precedent of the evolutionary process on Earth, in which evolution sorted behavior of formerly inanimate matter, by sending some matter down into the inanimate while sending the other matter/behavior into a state enhanced by trial, untill there was the onset of aware matter. The phenominon of evolution is an example of the natural shaping processes which without any obvious intervention produced an apparent inequity that there is both the highly invested (with having a history of being luckier than the other), aware part of the universe, and the unaware background that is the rest of the universe, including all of the mathematical structures. Like the superspace of particles out of which is selected by physical evolution only the dimensions which are involved within particles in living things, The entirety of (let us call this) Nature is participating in awareness of this sentence.

I can't help hearing an echo of Lacan's Real (physical), Symbolic (mathematical) and Imaginary (mental). Are Penrose's three worlds and Lacan's three orders both reflexes of some more basic ideological distinction?

LA REALIDAD ES EL CONJUNTO DE HECHOS U ACTO QUE POR SU PARTICULARIDAD DEFINEN LA SINGULARIDAD Y SUPONE PARA EXPONER LA INTERACCION DEL SER HUMANO

I ask if mathematics could exist without us. I think of it as there being things that have no existence but we can give them existence because it shares the existence of our lives.

would prime numbers exist outside our universe or in other universes? do they have to match reality of universe where they are observed or not? can we have a math system where 1+1 = 3 and match rules of physic of other universes?

This is one hypothesis that addresses all 3 mysteries: Fundamentally the universe is composed of many independent, heterogeneous (varying number of internal states, information processing rates and connective abilities) but connected conscious entities. Connections between them are initially random or individually caused but eventually come to be consciously modified by consensus among connected entities. Each entity experiences different connection states as different qualia. Qualia can vary greatly between entities and no direct communication of one's qualia are possible to another entity. Therefore some common language is required if they are to maintain or modify their mutual connections and the only substrate for that language are the connections themselves. Counts of qualia are available as a common language even if each entity learns to identify the same connection pattern in different ways. Maths therefore emerges as the means to agree mutual connections when the only view of those connections available is the first person via unique qualia. So the physhcal laws naturally evolve via evolution of mathematics as a shared language and so when we come to try to decode the laws of physics from our high level but nonetheless 1st person perspective on the universe we use various forms of the same language we and other fundamental entities use to generate the universe in the first place. Maths is 'unreasonsbly effective' because it is the underlying fundamental method of organisation. Consciousness is universal and fundamental but its exact nature from the first person depends on the exact connections each entity is involved with. Hence our particular conscious experience is so closely tied to the underlying fundamental connection from which our brain emerges. I.e. our consciousness doesn't emerge from what we can perceive from our 1st person view of the brain as we see it from outside. Rather that brain structure and function emerges from the underlying conscious decisions of a multitude of fundamental entities of which we are only one such entity with one specific connection pattern commensurate with our particular intetnal capabilities. The physical universe apparently ruled by deterministic laws and apparently fundamental is actually ruled by evolving but mutually agreed language conventions and emerges from the application of that language to the changing connections between fundamental entities. Im not saying this is correct, it's just an idea. I have no special knowledge of the inmer workings of the universe as a whole 😂

This interviewer's got one hell of a radio voice, damn!

SALUDOS

Consciousness is the only real thing

Imagination - Process of Pure Creation The process of creation starts with thought - an idea, conception, visualization. Everything you see was once someone's idea. Nothing exists in your world that did not first exist as pure thought. This is true of the universe as well. Thought is the first level of creation. Next comes the word. Everything you say is a thought expressed. It is creative and sends forth creative energy into the universe. Words are more dynamic (thus, some might say more creative) than thought, because words are a different level of vibration from thought. They disrupt (change, alter, affect) the universe with greater impact. Words are the second level of creation. Next comes action. Actions are words moving. Words are thoughts expressed. Thoughts are ideas formed. Ideas are energies come together. Energies are forces released. Forces are elements existent. Elements are particles of God, portions of ALL, the stuff of everything. The beginning is God. The end is action. Action is God creating - or God experienced. Hang on. There's one thing more I have to tell you. You are always seeing what by your terms you would define as the "past," even when you are looking at what is right in front of you. I am? It is impossible to see The Present. The Present "happens," then turns into a burst of light, formed by energy dispersing, and that light reaches your receptors, your eyes, and it takes time for it to do that. All the while the light is reaching you, life is going on, moving forward. The next event is happening while the light from the last event is reaching you. The energy burst reaches your eyes, your receptors send that signal to your brain, which interprets the data and tells you what you are seeing. Yet that is not what is now in front of you at all. It is what you think you are seeing. That is, you are thinking about what you have seen, telling yourself what it is, and deciding what you are going to call it, while what is happening "now" is preceding your process, and awaiting it. To put this simply, I am always one step ahead of you. My God, this is unbelievable. Now listen. The more distance you place between your Self and the physical location of any event, the further into the "past" that event recedes. Place yourself a few light-years back, and what you are looking at happened very, very long ago, indeed. Yet it did not happen "long ago." It is merely physical distance which has created the illusion of "time," and allowed you to experience your Self as being both "here, now" all the while you are being "there, then"! One day you will see that what you call time and space are the same thing. Then you will see that everything is happening right here, right now. This is....this is....wild. I mean, I don't know what to make of all this. When you understand what I have told you, you will understand that nothing you see is real. You are seeing the image of what was once an event, yet even that image, that energy burst, is something you are interpreting. Your personal interpretation of that image is called your image-ination. And you can use your imagination to create anything. Because - and here is the greatest secret of all - your image-ination works both ways. Please? You not only interpret energy, you create it. Imagination is a function of your mind, which is one-third of your three-part being. In your mind you image something, and it begins to take physical form. The longer you image it (and the more OF you who image it), the more physical that form becomes, until the increasing energy you have given it literally bursts into light, flashing an image of itself into what you call your reality. You then "see" the image, and once again decide what it is. Thus, the cycle continues. This is what I have called The Process. This is what YOU ARE. You ARE this Process. This is what I have meant when I have said, you are both the Creator and the Created. I have now brought it all together for you. We are concluding this dialogue, and I have explained to you the mechanics of the universe, the secret of all life. Okay. Now as energy coalesced, it becomes, as I said, very concentrated. But the further one moves from the point of this concentration, the more dissipated the energy becomes. The "air becomes thinner." The aura fades. The energy never completely disappears, because it cannot. It is the stuff of which everything is made. It's All There Is. Yet it can become very, very thin, very subtle - almost "not there." Then, in another place (read that, another part of Itself) it can again coalesce, once more "clumping together" to form what you call matter, and what "looks like" a discreet unit. Now the two units appear separate from each other, and in truth there is no separation at all. This is, in very, very simple and elementary terms, the explanation behind the whole physical universe. Wow. But can it be true? How do I know I haven't just made this all up? Your scientists are already discovering that the building blocks of all of life are the same. They brought back rocks from the moon and found the same stuff they find in trees. They take apart a tree and find the same stuff they find in you. I tell you this: We are all the same stuff. (I and the Father are One Energy) We are the same energy, coalesced, compressed in different ways to create different forms and different matter. Nothing "matters" in and of itself. That is, nothing can become matter all by itself. Jesus said, "Without the Father, I am nothing." The Father of all is pure thought. This is the energy of life. This is what you have chosen to call Absolute Love. This is the God and the Goddess, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. It is the All-in-All, the Unmoved Mover, the Prime Source. It is that which you have sought to understand from the beginning of time. The Great Mystery, the Endless Enigma, the Eternal Truth. There is only One of Us, and so, it is THAT WHICH YOU ARE.

The mental and the physical are one in the same. All mentality is rooted in the physical brain.

Really exist is the elements of the Nature.

This only proves that even with the smartest people, the question of "what really exists?" always devolves into a discussion that revolves around semantics, that has no real purpose or importance at all.

Free will is not free will to change events OUT THERE....all things will have happened....But you can come out of it with come free will over your own emotions and acceptance....In the end....you come out of it just as previously determined....but with a different mind.

One might also add logical existence to Penrose's triadic list if one supposes that mathematical existence is a universal totality then this Platonic totality is itself a logical obj. or proper class consisting of a union of all logically consistent sets.

If we're only matter, what's the difference between a dead person and a sleeping person? Sleep and death can't be the same except from the metaphorical visual, which is very unspoken and really eternal. Math doesn't just involve physics; it also to me refers to voids from creations since we're experiencing colors and lights for our reason. Brain activity is often eternal since we may or may not have the instincts realized through prejudice and judgement.

I like his talk. Very interesting. But i also think that the brain uses just a smart algorithm to understand objects which cannot be expressed in first order logic. Therefore it is (in my humble opinion) no Mystery that we can understand the set of all natural numbers or other holdingproblem-like situations. I think Intuition just tricks us in believing that we know something which cannot be known for sure. Altough i would have no problem if he proofes me wrong.

Could human mathematics be based on the dynamic geometry of the Universe?

We really don’t have a clue about what math really is when even Penrose is baffled by it.

Penrose's description of mathmatics is him describing God lmao

Pure mathematics is composed of relationships within the language called "mathematics" much like discovered relationships in language systems.

The Eternal Soul - The Spirit of God I mean, no soul has regrets that the current physical form is changing; is about to "die"? The body never "dies," but merely changes form with the soul. Yet I understand your meaning, so for now I use the vocabulary you have established. If you have a clear understanding of what you wish to create with regard to what you have chosen to call the afterlife, or if you have a clear set of beliefs that support an after-death experience of reuniting with God, then, no, the soul never, ever has regrets over what you call death. Death in that instance is a glorious moment; a wonderful experience. Now the soul can return to it's natural form; it's normal state. There is an incredible lightness; a sense of total freedom; a limitlessness. And an awareness of Oneness that is at once blissful and sublime. It is not possible for the soul to regret such a shift. You're saying, then, that death is a happy experience? For the soul that wishes it to be, yes, always. Well, if the soul wants out of the body so bad, why doesn't it just leave it? Why is it hanging around? I did not say the soul "wants out of the body," I said the soul is joyful when it is out. Those are two different things. You can be happy doing one thing, and happy then doing another. The fact that you are joyful doing the second does not mean you were unhappy doing the first. The soul is not unhappy being in the body. Quite to the contrary, the soul is pleased to be you in your present form. That does not preclude the possibility that the soul might be equally pleased to be disconnected from it. Why is there such a delay between thought and creation before we die, and no delay at all after we die? Because you are working within the illusion of time. There is no delay between thought and creation away from the body, because you are also away from the parameter of time. In other words, as You have said so often, time does not exist. Not as you understand it. The phenomenon of "time" is really a function of perspective. Why does it exist while we are in the body? You have caused it to be moving into, by assuming, your present perspective. You use this perspective as a tool with which you can explore and examine your experiences much more fully, by separating them into individual pieces, rather than a single occurrence. Life is a single occurrence, an event in the cosmos that is happening right now. All of it is happening. Everywhere. There is no "time" but now. There is no "place" but here. Here and now is All There Is. Yet you choose to experience the magnificence of here and now in its every detail, and to experience your Divine Self as the here and now Creator of that reality. There were only two ways - two fields of experience - in which you could do that. Time and space. So magnificent was this thought that you literally exploded with delight! In that explosion of delight was created space between the parts of you, and the time it took to move from one part of yourself to another. In this way you literally tore your Self apart to look at the pieces of you. You might say that you were so happy you "fell to pieces." You been picking up the pieces ever since. That's all my life is! I'm just putting together the pieces, trying to see if they make any sense. And it is through the device called time that you have managed to separate the pieces, to divide the indivisible, thus to see it and experience it more fully, as you are creating it. Even as you look at a solid object through a microscope, seeing that it is not solid at all, but actually a conglomeration of a million different effects - different things all happening at once and thus creating the larger effect - so, too, do you use time as the microscope of your soul. Consider the Parable of the Rock. Once there was a Rock, filled with countless atoms, protons, neutrons and subatomic particles of matter. These particles were racing around continually, in a pattern, each particle going from "here" to "there," and taking "time" to do so, yet going so fast that the Rock itself seemed to move not at all. It just was. There it lay, drinking in the sun, soaking up the rain, and moving not at all. "What is this, inside of me, that is moving?" the Rock asked. "It is You," said a Voice from Afar. "Me?" replied the Rock. "Why, that is impossible. I am not moving at all. Anyone can see that." "Yes, from a distance," the Voice agreed. "From way over here you look as if you are solid, still, not moving. But when I come closer - when I look very closely at what is actually happening - I see that everything that comprises What You Are is moving. It is moving at incredible speed through time and space in a particular pattern which creates You as the thing called 'Rock.' "And so, you are like magic! You are moving and not moving at the same time." "But," asked the Rock, "which, then, is the illusion? The Oneness, the stillness, of the Rock, or the separateness and the movement of its parts?" To which the Voice replied, "Which, then, is the illusion? The Oneness, the stillness, of God? Or the separateness and movement of its parts?" And I tell you this: Upon this Rock, I will build My church. For this is the Rock of Ages. This is the eternal truth that leaves no stone unturned. I have explained it all for you here, in this little story. This is The Cosmology. Life is a series of minute, incredibly rapid movements. These movements do not affect at all the immobility and the Beingness of Everything That Is. Yet, just as with the atoms of the rock, it is the movement which is creating the stillness, right before your eyes. From a distance, there is no separateness. There cannot be, for All That Is is All There Is, and there is nothing else. I am the Unmovrd Mover. From the limited perspective with which you view All That Is, you see yourself as separate and apart, not one immovable being, but many, many beings, constantly in motion. Both observations are accurate. Both realities are "real." And when I "die," I don't die at all, but simply shift into awareness of the macrocosm - where there is no "time" or "space," now and then, before and after. Precisely. You've got it.

Math handles discrete values. Does Math need to 'fudge' the handling of continuous variables? [fudge==approximate or perhaps...??..] thanks

A lot of the mystery around mathematics comes from the artificial distinction we make between quality and quantity, a distinction that does not exist in the real world.

No one has claimed math is a metaphor. Mathematics is a special language for expressing quantity, relationships and behavior in nature. I didn't say mathematics was the same as a traditional spoken language which you assumed. Regarding "change," that really isn't a point. "and" means "and" always, "a" means "a" always. "c" stands for the speed of light always. We are free to change the notation at any time if it become convenient to do so.

Wouldn't it be correct to say that mathematics is a description of certain things? I think there tends to be this over complication in our perception of mathematics. It's not a separate thing it is the thing that it's describing. Sorry if I'm being not completely clear.

I love a game of rouse ball. I wonder if the professor would consider going a few stirrings with me?

This is an interesting and sophisticated version of the so called fine tuning problem. It’s a semantic game based on some logical wrong turns. Minds emerge from neurobiology, mathematics emerges from minds. The universe was in process long before minds emerged to observe it and even longer before those minds developed languages like mathematics to try to describe, understand and explain those processes. I guess it’s yet another example of a genius being really excellent at certain things and not so much at others?

The Entirety Of Nature Is Organized In A Very Sophisticated Way. Physics And Metaphysics.

I take Pi as evidence that the universe doesn’t obey mathematics, rather maths approximate the universe. Pi is, after all, an irrational number. You will never get a correct answer for the circumference of a circle by multiplying its diameter by Pi, only increasingly precise estimates based on the number of decimal places to which pi has been calculated.

Empirical reality doesn't need our math or our minds to exist. Math and our minds are just how we understand the world, and math only explains a sliver of things we know

Sophisticated and subtle mathematics from the point of view of our ape minds.

If we're allowed to imagine a multiverse, then physical law, however simple we can make it in the coming years, is not a 'law' per say, but rather an effect of its own environmental surroundings, 'pushing away' the mystery of its existence and specificity to a greater mystery--maybe the reason gravity is so weak for us is our proximity, or however imagined, to a dense field of it somewhere outside the Universe, maybe "all around" the Universe, causing it to expand toward it... I don't know how we can ever know what's beyond the observable Universe, though I guess we shouldn't say we know everything to discourage ourselves... if we theorize about things that make their existence from other universes known to us, maybe dark matter or energy being two such things, we may be able to know what drives the whole of it. Could science become as extremely far from a new kind of gathering of evidence for a multiverse as religion is from science today? Would a new science, figuring out in some ultra-direct way, say, that negates the importance of old methods of observation and experimentation, be as viciously assaulted by science? I think honest scientists would hop on board if amazing things were to come of such a new method, but there would be, by that time, incredible interests in keeping old ways, maybe even the same interests at stake as with religion (control of population, debate over morality/ethics of practicing 'new science', etc.) It's hard for me even to imagine that observation based on cause and effect and mathematics, and ultimately simpler logic might one day be shown to be more or less a 'story' we've allowed ourselves in crude observation of one small part of EVERYTHING, but it might one day happen. I'd definitely opt for a greater truth at that point--you won't see me clinging to something that doesn't apply to a new, broader landscape, where Newton and Einstein might seem to be as superficial to our satisfaction of reality as an old book is...

What!!!.........mathematics doesn't "control the universe"..........surely, its just an incredibly precise way of describing the universe.

240p we meet again ... It's been very long

[Human Consciousness, Truth, Reality, and Physical World] In order for us to properly talk about reality, we need to understand correctly about what both the facts and reality are and what the relationship between them is, and how humans’ perception and understanding occur. Truth is a logic that is always right regardless of the physical world, fact refers to the phenomenon or change in the physical world, and reality means that truth appears as a fact through matter. In human consciousness, three parties are involved: human (observer), target object and intermediate information conveyor. In order for human perception and understanding to be completely correct, all of these must be complete. Complete is normal and imperfect is abnormal. First of all, the observer, the conscious person, must be complete. The observer must be able to properly interpret and judge the given information. If he is incomplete, no matter how much the object provides enough information and the information carrier completely convey the information, the object cannot be correctly recognized and understood. But basically human is imperfect in physical existence and ability. Human perception-understanding functions are sometimes very inaccurate and may malfunction. The ability of the five senses is so limited. The base information and knowledge for the interpretation of the given information may be scarce or distorted. Sometimes the brain cannot properly handle the given information, can construct illogical things at random or distorts what it is. The brain can also be disturbed by the body and peripheral circumstances that prevent it from concentrating on the object. The way in which humans are maximally perfected is to improve their own abilities through education or training and/or to raise the lack of senses and judgment ability through the help of the tools. In judging the information given from the object, it is necessary not to be disturbed by concentrating to the utmost and not to be distorted by influence of his desire, minimizing the deviation from the greed and self-center. Even if the conscious person is perfect, the intermediate communicator may be incomplete. A delay or distortion may occur on the way of information transmission about the object. The physical world is an imperfect world with many limitations and conditions. It takes time to transmit the information and limits the power at the distance and distort it by the noise. The object must also provide sufficient information. The object may not give enough information or may be changing continuously. Some materials, such as black holes or dark energy, do not give information to the outside at all. In particular, the problem may occur as uncertainty in the micro-physical world when energy is on the process of accumulating to particles. The object that is not physical existence but pure logic, is not related to the communicator. This is the reason why it is possible for the brain of the best state to do the truth without physical interference. Since the truth is always right without being constrained by the conditions of the physical space and time, if problem does not arise in the human brain to recognize, it can be clearly realized. (That is, because the truth remains the same everywhere all the time, it can be confirmed right wherever any time the perceiver's brain works properly.) But in the case that the object is physical, human consciousness, fact and reality are interdependent each other because those three are tied together by the physical world. The physical fact and reality that have already occurred will keep themselves without disappearing or changing, but when they become the objectives of human perception and understanding, they will become related to all three parties, being affected by identity imperfection, continuous change and inter-connectivity of the physical world. The way to grasp the facts and reality that happened in the past is to keep track of the changes of the physical world through the laws of physics. At this time, it is necessary to make sure the physical identity of the object and the conditions of the transmission media. The logic of backtracking is made through unchanging truth hidden in the laws of physics (eg mathematical logic). (Keep in mind that no backtracking is possible unless absolute truths that do not change are not backed up.) Therefore, the first problem in physical facts and reality is the precise identification of the existence of the material. For example, if the motion or change of a particle is the subject of understanding, a clear identity determination of the physical presence of the particle is required. If the identity of the particle is unclear, it is impossible to tell the facts and reality about its movement or change accurately. This is related to how fine the particle changes in the micro-world. Currently the smallest size for this is known as the Planck size (Planck length: meters, Planck time: seconds). Particles, however, exhibit uncertainty of existence and wave-particle duality and quantum entanglement phenomena centering on this size. (I believe that this size is the smallest particle in matter and is made by the balance between the energy viscosity and the diffusing force of vacuum, while occurring at the mapping of the finite amount of energy to unlimited depth and size of vacuum.) In addition, from the viewpoint of information transmission about the object, the memory of the transmitted information and the propagation conditions such as delay by the electromagnetic wave (or light) propagated at a finite speed of 300,000Km/sec and the distortion due to noise in the physical space that is bent while being influenced by gravity, become the considerations. Furthermore, conscious person can affect the objects by changing the energy field when thinking in the brain or looking through light. For these reasons, recognition and understanding of physical objects cannot but include delay and error rates, and they cannot escape subjectivity and relativity according to each party in the pursuit of common objective perceptions and understandings. As such, consciousness and reality in human beings are related to that the physical world is finite, incomplete, imperfect, ever-changing, temporal, and relative as the secondary world, and the world of truth is perfect, never-changing, always right, permanent, and absolute as the original world, while being opposed to the physical world. Also, consciousness and reality are related to that truth manifests itself whenever and wherever while being hidden in the changes and laws of the physical world, and that those who do the truth live as being worthy and without question and shake in life as they realize the truths. The way to approach perfection in human perception and comprehension is to maximally deviate or compensate for the physical constraints of all three parties of the physical worlds. Those who do absolute truth are not limited to the finiteness and not drawn to the chaos of change, transcending the imperfect physical world, but are always in a free and peaceful state transcending bodily death. OnCharm Lee (Author of the Book "Humans, God, and Truth - Human Life is the Awakening Process")

In this case unrestricted Platonic existence would be quaternary and thus teleologically a totality in keeping w/ the unus mundus of Jung and Pauli.

It is all there. To be there it has to have a network of parts that work in pattern. We are part of that pattern and we are the only mental pattern that tries to study and understand the pattern itself. Our evolutionary pattern enabled us to adopt our own way of approaching the workings of a pattern that already exists. We are just in the infancy period of attempting to grasp the reality. Depending on how universal our attempt to understand the universe is, it is possible that we are at a stage where we can't continue any further. Is our choice going to face a gridlock? The trouble is we don't have the capacity to know that unless another evolutionary path directs the coming generation a better way, which I think is in itself a gridlock for us.

Three mysteries....but (applying a hypothesis as in empirical investigation), if consciousness is considered to be "timeless", by definition, it would have predated the "mysterious" start of the universe, and would legitimize the statements made by some spiritual masters (I consider Pythagoras to be such an individual), whom have stated that everything "trickles down" from consciousness. To add validity to such a hypothesis, would it not be reasonable to add that such "general consciousness", separates into individual units of consciousness (the parallel being our cellular expansion)... ie you and me, and from our unique experiences as individuals, rediscover that original "reality" by also discovering, and identifying those mysteries Roger referred to? Makes sense out of the Py statement (Know Thyself...and know the universe). Also explains why we are "hell bent"..pun intended.. on always looking deeper...and why some say they have experienced "enlightenment".

time and energy quantum reality with mental world beneath physical planck space?

The collection plate really exist for all religions.

Penrose and Max Tegmark takes similar stands on this issue.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” - the things God has prepared for those who love him- 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”But we have the mind of Christ. Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne ... everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:28-29) “The soul consciousness can say … “I and my Father[Spirit] are one.” The deluded ego consciousness says, “I am the body; this is my family and name; these are my possessions.” ~ P. Yogananda “Soul is the essential radiance of God, the Divine Mind; and individualized souls partake of that same reality, though by their connection to body, they are confined to time and space. These souls, enamored of the material world, become disoriented, bound by their own attachment to matter; but by a deliberate reversal of its intention, an individualized soul is able to look within, examine itself, and ‘see’ its Origin, its higher Self, thereby regaining awareness of its true, eternal identity. …… And he is capable of directly experiencing that Divine Identity within himself.” ~ Swami Abhayananda “When in inner union he is beyond the world of the body, then the world of the Spirit is found where man possesses all - for he is one with the One.” ~ Svetasvatara Upanishad “I am nothing else but that supreme Self which is eternal, pure, liberated, one, unbroken Bliss, undivided Existence, and unlimited Knowledge.” ~ Shankaracharya “A drunken man does not notice whether he is wearing his shawl or whether it has fallen off, so the Realised Man is hardly aware of his body and it makes no difference to him whether it remains or drops off.” ~ Ramana Maharshi “Being is the eternal, ever-present One Life beyond the myriad forms of life that are subject to birth and death. However, Being is not only beyond but also deep within every form as its innermost invisible and indestructible essence. This means that is accessible to you now as your own deepest self, your true nature. But don't seek to grasp it with your mind. Don't try to understand it. You can know it only when the mind is still.” ~ Eckhart Tolle “Insofar as the genuine mystic is totally emptied of “self” and becomes a pure instrument of God, he or she may honestly and truly declare “I am awake,” as did the Buddha, or “I and the Father are One” as did Jesus, where the “I” refers not to the human instrument, but to God.” ~ Thomas J. McFarlane “Thou art He, without one of these limitations.” ~ Ibn Arabi “Is this living Splendor, this beaming Sun of Life, beyond the slightest touch of earthly sorrow, suffering or pain, my real Self? O wonder of wonders, am I this immortal Being, happy beyond measure.” ~ Gopi Krishna “Before the world was, you were, and when the world is no longer, you remain” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj “You yourself are God, the Supreme Reality.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj “We are not only permeated by God’s Consciousness, we are made of His essence; we are projections of His light. And our consciousness is essentially identical with the Consciousness of God.” ~ Swami Abhayananda “A visiting Irish journalist asked her, “Am I right to believe that you are God?” to which Sri Ma replied, “There is nothing save He alone; everyone and everything is a form of God. In your person also He has come.” ~ Anandamoyi Ma “Right knowledge, destroying ignorance, dissolves the ego-sense consciousness of oneness with the immortal Atman, seated in your heart, and pervading all life and form in the universe.” ~ Papa Ramdas “Forget not that you are the immortal and blissful Spirit.” ~ Papa Ramdas “Consider not that you are merely a perishable and changing being; you are the absolute, immortal, changeless, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient Truth.”~ Papa Ramdas “Throw off the mask that enshrouds your real Divine nature and reveal yourself in all your magnificence.” ~ Papa Ramdas “Since most of us exist on a lower level of consciousness, we do not experience ourselves as the divine Self; instead, we experience ourselves as individual souls with distinctly unique attributes, and we deal with others as individuals with unique attributes - though in fact, there is only the one Divinity living and acting in the world as individual souls.” ~ Swami Abhayananda “At the highest, or deepest, spiritual level, there are no souls; there is only the divine Self ... it is realized by enlightened sages as the highest truth, the sole source and origin of all the manifest planes of existence, and everyone’s ultimate identity.” ~ Swami Abhayananda Quotations on Comparison of ego-consciousness and god-consciousness “You see yourself in the world, while I see the world in myself. To you, you get born and die, while to me the world appears and disappears.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj “Mind is consciousness which has put on limitations. You are originally unlimited and perfect. Later you take on limitations and become the mind.” ~ Ramana Maharshi

Down at the Planck lenght all is 'impossible' triangles, and Consciousness is an emergent and inherent part of matter and space-time. We still need to find a few other particle fields beyond the Higgs, and perhaps LIGO and such can find the reverberations of inflation before the 380.000 year mark. Entanglement will explain why dark stuff, gravity and other fields permeates the Universe through multi-dimensional connections. Roger Penrose is a genius. :)

I believe this: the world of eternal source is the world of truth corresponding to the divine or God world and the physical world is the secondary and temporary world that is always changing and sometimes does not exist. The human body comes from the physical world and goes back and the spirit feels the physical world and interacts with the God world (usually called consciousness). Accordingly, the master of the human is the spirit as God is the owner of the physical world. And thus the life is the process of getting close to God who does not die forever while realizing the truth and growing the spirit. OnCharm Lee

To be is to be perceived. You can't have 'things' first and then consciousness arising/evolving from them. Where and when would the universe be without an observer? A 'self' is the guarantor of reality. Phenomena aren't phenomena if they don't appear........

IMMHO, Platonism is the very problem: mathematics is a language, it is inductively established, and just potentially it is "all there"... and, there we have our bridge! Then, as for the mysterious effectiveness of mathematics, I would rather object that our understanding of the material world, and all the more so any formalisation of that understanding, is one thing, a different thing is the material world in itself. Namely, that effectiveness is just illusory, totally internal to the theory: it is the effectiveness of the observer observing his observation. Not per chance, the ultimate truth is that which cannot be told, i.e. the ultimate truth is never theoretical.

The camera is out of focus

Talks of "the universe was there before consciousness" doesn't take into consideration that maybe the Universe is timeless? And that time is irrelevant on some basic level? Maybe its time we move from bottom up to a top bottom approach on some questions?

omg I'm so mental

The more interesting question is, "Why to things exist?"

Better camera work in this one

Greetings as Mathematics produces Language to conceive/learn /understand they live life in D so as D's are in every M's can be understood.

I disagree. Subjectivity is merely objective things in the context of something else, or someone else. Objective things as filtered through human beings become emotions like love, and the subjective seem different merely because of the lack of understanding for the point of view we experience, what it truly means to be a conscious being.

Chaos reinforces the limits of the mathematics that humans have designed to define our knowledge of the physical world.

He is missing it regarding mathematics existing. It hinges on the question, "Is mathematics discovered or invented." Had humans not created mathematical notation which is just a vocabulary for expressing relationships of the physical world, then mathematics would not exist. The laws, theorems, relationships, symmetries and so on would exist, but not the mathematics. That's just an invented language.

Name of the interviewer?

Why does youtube still even allow 240p content to be uploaded

I tend to agree with Mr. Penrose about the pre-existence of mathematics in some way. The laws of nature are rules and rules is a mental concept itself since it involves choice. If the Universe came out of nothing then how did nothing know to apply any rules at all if there wasn't any rules before that? The question "why is there something rather then nothing" could sound like "why are there any rules rather than no rules at all'? But a lot of scientists today seem to mix nothing with something at all times (or purposely ignore the problem), saying that nothing is in fact a field or a state with its own characteristics etc. I find it very annoying and lazy. I would ask then "why is there something in that nothing rather then nothing at all"?

But without mentality there would be no mathematics or materiality. Without a knowers there is no known. It seems axiomatic.

This video needs less resolution..... Were all videos this pish back in 2013?

I would like to see a interview with an Advaitic teacher, not just the Western way of thought,although I am in ow by the way things don’t get explained by the Western point of view.