I hope you first asked the owner if the vet has seen the mare prior to your work with her. I don't know what breed she is, but by the way she is trotting she might have multiple issues with her legs (maybe navicular, ossification of the hoof cartilage, sacro-illiac issues, arthritis in hocks, etc) as she is very stiff in her movements and slightly irregular. The other thing that might cause her to have such irregular blow outs are ovarian issues. She might have multiple cysts on her ovaries that might be very uncomfortable or painful during her heat, which can cause her to buck and explode occasionally and not every day. This mare needs a vet appointment then the training may resume. Nonetheless, amazing and soft work with her, very nicely done without brute force which im used to see with these kind of "problematic" horses here on KZfaq 👏👍

Did the tail twitching when you started riding her around mean anything?

@@bearsmartdurango I do not see the reason behind such a reply, but I will play dumb and get over that. I was curious about the history of a mare, because I've seen many owners have difficulties with horses, but didn't know that a horse had a chronic issue that was causing occasional pain that they couldn't predict/understand. I'm also a veterinarian interested in lameness issues in horses, and if my question was out of line, and you would like to keep the confidential information safe, you could have simply said so. I also don't understand why such a stand off answer, as I complimented the way you worked with the mare and she seemed to have responded beautifully to your time spent together. Good luck in your further endeavors and I'm sorry to see how my previous question offended you so much

@@sacriface777 Great information in your post! As one reading this, I appreciate your information. I notice the way my horse moves she's stiff especially in the hinds and I've wondered about girl issues, she's rather moody and when she was younger, was constantly in heat, not so often now. Had many appointments with the vet with various lab tests, always normal. Last year had issues with lameness with no positive diagnosis but she was overweight but we helped her with that (we live in areas with harsh weather, snow/ice with no indoor arena) with increased exercise and feed adjustments. Again, thank you for the information.

I'm chiropractically minded. High head carriage and stiff spine, looks uncomfortable for her. Maybe the owner has had a chiropractor check her. I wud do that.

She handled all of that beautifully.. that’s a lot to throw at a horse all at once and she took it in stride!

I seen the same....she doesnt seem to move freely in the rearend i noticed most every third stride she'd give a slight head bob.....??recently i red an article on how the rear trimming of a horse can have every thing to do with their posture and movement. The trim Being just a smidging off can affect everything...new studies have shown . i will look for a link to this article anf get back to u!! If you eould ike ?? Its awesome to see this mare deginstley does lack in care from you. Where i live nobody believes in natural horsemanship. Chiros or massage or even listening to the horse!! Good trails yo you and thanc rtan for video

All of those admitted reasons for the horse to display exactly what she displays. And then a pile of "new" things thrown at her for an hour. Why? Because "that's what I wanted to do." This "more, more, more " method is why sensitive horses go sour -- some will become dangerous because their encounters with humans are so rude and unfair -- in a hurry. This is a classic "the ends justify the means" method. The horse's "voice" is ignored. If I did this to a client's horse the ghosts of those who trained me would be up and out of their graves and chasing me down with a twitch.

@@emmawillard1832 Because most are more willing to criticize instead of offering help 😉

@@horsefun123 Missed the point of the horse's communications. Which is the same as criticizing the horse's point of view and rolling over or ignoring the horse's voice as either unimportant or unworthy of attention or offered without justification, i.e., the horse is characterized as a "complainer" or some other insult of the horse's character and unwarranted motivations. Confirms my point as advocate for this unsound horse and every horse. Offering help: bring horse -- as long as it is finally sound -- and stay at least a month at my expense. Leave the "attitude" at home or learn why that approach is so destructive to learning from Ben upon arrival.

Had a mare the same she had more than one but they were small , but she really was uncomfortable. Poor girls , such a shame and must have been in agony, had an ovarian cyst myself so can sympathise a lot .

I had a mare that would tend to buck when in heat. There wasn't anything "wrong" with her, but being that I've always had rough cycles, I felt like she might very well too. I think she just didn't feel well at that time in the month. So I broke her to drive, and one week in the month we drove instead of riding. She was perfect in harness. She just didn't want anyone on her back.

We had a boarder at our stable years ago that had that same issue. With mares, it's always a possibility.

same I had a mare that passed a vetting 100% until they ultra-sounded her ovaries. The one on the right looked like 1950's TV snow! She had bucked off a buyer.... they read me the riot act for it. Accused me of everything. How would I have known. The next spring she US'd clear and was actually ovulating on that ovary at the time! Next buyer swoped her up.

Exactly. Sore in more than one place.

Seems worse on left hind being stiff

@@jesrabbit5162 Short strides front and rear. Shoulders are limited. Toe stabs. Toe catch / foot stumble in soft footing. Absence of hock flexion. Hips do not rotate. Gait irregularities. More indicia of pain after being forced to buck and tear around on limited radius. Horse is obviously not sound just being hand walked. Should never have been saddled much less mounted / forced to carry weight. Edited to add: A professional's first responsibility is to the horse, NOT the owner.

Good point

High head, head tilt, short step and toe first landing, big issue in back left and probably somewhere else

I'm glad you mentioned that I too saw something possibly with left hind, I'm no expert either, just wanted to put that out there. I agree back end seems not 100%, could be spine, S.I. joint, doesn't seem to be tracking up well underneath. Wishing the owner all the best with this lovely mare. I'm glad the owner allowed everyone to watch this session as we all never stop learning.

That's correct. She's lame. The tail and the hind legs are in a constant move,too. This is a hint for a neurological problem. A shame the trainer didn't notice, didn't even consider about anything like that.

I agree. The trainer needs to know when it’s lameness or pain. Does anyone think it could be PSSM?

@akat1203 yes I agree, super lame LH and surely some SI issues and possibly hamstring.

First thought when I saw the mare.... Her topline is off. I think there's a vertabra out, where the saddle lays, you can see the bump at certain angles. She needs a chiropractor of sorts, and "belly lifting" exercises in the meantime.

I immediately thought the same thing. Ovulation can be painful for some females both human & animal. I would start tracking her cycles to look for a pattern.

I never thought of that.

I agree! She looks quite swollen in that area. A friend's horse died of coluc from fat wrapping around her intestines, and her stomach area looked like that.

It could be a cyst/mass in her reproductive system, those are more common than we might realize.

The owner gave this fine mare ulcers. I was not liking her from the start.

I have heard allergy to alfalfa can cause severe gut pain and erratic dangerous behavour.

I felt this also.around the time he saddled her, she kept kicking at something like a mare going into labor .She also holds her tail at a weird angle and constantly swishes it.

To me she mostly seems a bit older and out of shape. She's probably spent her whole life using her body incorrectly so i wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit of soreness.

@@badlander2000 - compensatory mechanisms defo affected me adversely after yrs of getting away w them (running or playing football) so can see how it would be the same for any animal

Hmmm, I noticed that too, at first I thought she was in estrus 🤔

Assuming pain has already been ruled out my guess would be this horse was not trained by a professional. You can see so many holes. Everything from desensitization to collection. The stiffness you see is she’s not collecting her self. At the trot the legs drag behind instead of being engaged. You can see it even more prominently when she canters. The legs are practically being dragged by the front legs no engagement. You’ll see a lot of comments about her being out of shape. It’s inherently difficult for horses to gain muscle and get fit without proper engagement. And with out engagement there is limited balance. You ad a child with out effective balance themselves, improper desensitization, lack of engagement causing lack of balance and that is where the claustrophobia is coming from. When a horse is unsure within its own body it is very hard for them to be sure with a rider. Hence the bucking at canter. The trot is already disengaged and unbalanced so when you up to a canter and it created a glaringly obvious issue.

Yeah. I noticed her swishing tail and she was sweating a lot too!

I noticed this and wished someone like the Animal Cracker (Dr. Doug Willen) was close enough to check her over. She is definitely not okay.

@@amandajarboe1131She needs a vet check before a Chiropractor can safely work with her, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a chiropractor could help. She’s a very small horse, I have a feeling she’s having too much weight put on her.

I agree. It's a shame he didn't see that at all.

I didn't see that. That's why I always check out the comments to get the benefit of more experienced eyes. Now, I've got to go back and replay that until I can spot it also. Thanks for sharing

This problems most on the right side maybe is connected to the stomach?!?!

Yes, surprises happen. I rode my gelding just about every day and he was solid. Then one day I got on him bareback and he reared straight up. But once he came down he was fine. I guess it just felt that different to him.

@Kelpie. I loved your comment. Ohh the yrs when we were kids & jumped on any 🐎 we could ride. I was curious 🤔. Ya think it's time for you to switch to an electric horse (atv) like my kids are bugging me too😉⁉️✌️❣️🎄

I bought my 1st horses last July, and he was also not as advertised . Idk if maybe he was sedated when I tried him or not, but as a new rider, despite not riding him myself at all yet except at purchase, which sucks, the best thing for him was to be with an experienced trainer who could get him more confident on the ground and under the saddle and in Nov it was 1 year with her! I boarded him there and chose to keep him with her a year, knowing that he'd have over 250 rides by the time I ride him, and that's actually in 2 weeks!!! I'm so excited!!!

it shouldn't matter to a properly trained horse, I literally did everything from roping/reining to showjumping and carriage driving with my Arab lol. If tack matters that much to them (as long as its fitting properly) someone screwed up majorly.

⁠@@saltylikesalineicurnI bought a “bomb proof” horse for my friends and little cousins to ride. When I looked at her and rode her, she seemed like what they said: laid back, nothing bothered her, did what you asked, rode her under saddle and bare back, was not a bolter (kinda slow and lazy -which is what I wanted for them). She was barn kept there, and I have to assume was there most of the time, and was slightly underweight. She seemed sad. I felt sorry for her, and had to bring her home. Jump forward a couple of month, and she got good weight on her, out to pasture the majority of the time with her buddies. My LORT, that horse transformed to a piss and vinegar, wild woman. I truly believe she was depressed and broken at her old owners. I had to work extensively with her, and definitely was not “bomb proof” 😅.

I think ulcers (along with what Ryan had said.)

@@Velcro1997 probably! But she is built long backed like every cold backed horse I ran across, and when she said she didn’t tolerate a second rider it clicked for me. If there’s no ulcers just have a vet check her. It’s easy to fix and work with these days and not as bad as an ulcer. Whatever the problem may be, I hope it gets straightened out for her.

Cold backed is the term used for a horse that'll likely buck, yes. But not for a deformity like you suggest.

Being cold backed is not a deformity

@@ladyfarrier5949 yes you are right. I was thinking more of the kissing spine version of cold backed than other forms.

Thanks

Yes it was!

Same here.

His calming patience is impressive.

"breaking"is a bit of an outdated term. "Starting" is a better term for what you're doing with your horse. 🙂

@@CommonSense14537 It comes from like breaking in your shoes. Getting them shaped and fitted and tuned into you. Not breaking them in half or spirit

@@RoanAndRoaming The term still insinuates force used. Doesn't mean that anymore.

Only crazy bronc riders do! Lol

It sounds like they brought her all the way out there for help from him and he’s recommending something that is more affordable and/or closer to them. He’s definitely a pro!

Thanks for watching! Glad your enjoying them.

She’s obese. Don’t mean this in a mean way. She can hardly move out. Her body is super stressed by her weight. Back up on her grain and more exercise. Her ribs are so stressed. She’s cute but so fat.

Me too...love love your techniques and mannerisms. Wish could get you to KY. Your #1 KY fan.

Glad it was helpful!

What are your recommendations for a horse not “in work?”

@@rnjewl1749 Horses are all individuals. Age, breed also play a roll in feeding. My best advice would be to go to some nutritional seminars from your feed company or local university. They are free and very informative.

@@rnjewl1749 Hay. Caloric density commensurate with horse's level of activity and access to fodder other than in the stable.

That's exactly what i was thinking, the bracing in her legs during the canter when he rode her looked very uncomfortable. Not a full buck, but you could tell she was gonna blow soon.

😅

How can it be said that a "trainer" did "a great job" with an obviously unsound horse?

It’s not a fancy business card! 😉

^^^

Us too. Except we need more than a few minor points. Riders need far more training than the horse. Particularly me as horse has pushed me and senses my nervousness around him. I’m not strong enough to get into pushing contest with a twelve hundred pound horse.

@@finngamesknudson1457 I agree! A ride is great when things are good but things can change really quick (a good spook). When that happens, we've gotta think fast without overreacting ourselves or over correcting. I used to say, well that's a good training opportunity but now I say, "I'm too old." When I feel like I'm starting to get nervous, I intentionally do some deep breathing, "force" myself to relax being aware of any tension I'm carrying and hope (and pray) for the best. Like you said, trying not to get into a pushing contest, the best I can. However, it doesn't always work that way.

@@katie195 Nope, ignore the fancy cards, lol.

Seemed to me that yes, the mare was sweaty, and looking at her nostrils her breathing was very elevated as well. My conclusion was that this horse is in very poor physical shape.

Horses can sweat from nerves/fear, as can people. She's nervous enough to buck.

Sherill, I wondered the same. Maybe just her general anxiety?

She acts like a whole lot of green horses I've seen when they're first getting started -- except for the excessive tail swishing. Most likely someone sold her a green horse and called it a "kid's horse". They may have even sedated her. Never trust a horse trader. I told a family I knew NOT to buy a horse without me looking at it first. Their daughter called me all excited about a "kid's horse" they found. Then told me it was an off-the-track thoroughbred COLT that had just been gelded and was two years old. I asked where it was and realized a horse trader I knew had him. When I told her that was a horse trader's place, she didn't think he was. He seems like such a nice guy. I phoned him and when he recognized my voice the first thing he said was "oh, she doesn't want that crazy horse -- he jumped out of the round pen today". He did have a horse that would have been perfect for her, but her family couldn't afford it. Another time i ran into someone in a tack store asking about tie-downs. The owner wasn't in that day and the girl didn't know. I asked what she wanted it for and she said to keep the horse from bucking. I replied that horses put their heads DOWN to buck and the tack shop offered me a job. lol The worst case I ever saw was a family who bought a 2 year old colt that had just come out of race training. I asked if they rode the horse. No. Then I asked if they saw anyone ride the horse. No. If you are at a training center and no one is willing to get on the horse they're trying to sell you, it is NOT the horse for your kids! Fortunately, I was able to talk the place into giving them their money back. And advised them to go look again at the horses that were old and fuzzy and had years of training on them. Yes, sleek horses coming out of race training are prettier, but you don't trust your kids to pretty stallions that are clearly not trained. OLD horses make better kids horses. And NOT thoroughbreds which are hard keepers, have poor feet, and are usually more high strung. (I have TBs and QHs - very different horses!) Horses are easy to buy and a lot harder to sell. Buyer beware. Get experienced advise from someone who can check the horse over and make sure it isn't sedated and is what you are being told. Look at it. Then leave and tell them you'll think about it. And then show up unexpectedly to see if the horse acts the same way. (You cannot always tell if they're lightly sedated, especially mares. Come back in a hour or two or another day and compare.

Owner said it was a recent development and only happened a few times