I wish you had gone into a lot more detail about why whole fat dairy like cheese and fermented whole fat dairy like yoghurt are better for you than, say, saturated fat from meat or butter.

Very interesting. My diet certainly has far more saturated fat than government guidelines recommend, but it also has far less refined carbs and it almost always comes from dairy or nuts, with full fat Greek yoghurt and cheese being the primary sources. I realised how ludicrous the guidelines were when I saw that my walnuts were given a red traffic light for their saturated fat content.

Jonathon, I listen to alot podcasts, and I have to say you are one of my favorite interviewers. I like your sense of humor and you do such good summaries in the end. Keep the great content coming. I was in the Predict 2 cohort and love seeing all the great observations your work is bringing to light. I am curious if you are following any subjects to see how dietary changes shape their microbiome going forward and then how their response to foods change over time.

Please could you put timestamps in the description for key points? Helps to retrieve info later.

Not sure this added a great deal to human knowledge, beyond: 1. Eat a balanced diet, restricted in amount, 2, avoid processed food, and 3, steer clear of the mainstream media.

More content like this please. All these podcasts are not only interesting they help me understand what we should be eating and why. Result!

What else were the people eating who were having a higher risk of disease with the saturate fat? What were they eating full stop? Fresh food? Processed? What countries and what was their general lifestyle like? What about all of the people removing inflammation and other diseases from their body on Keto or Carnivore? What about the "clear" evidence to the contrary?

That's me; a newly independent adult of the 90's. I chose the low fat meat options and upped the pasta & rice, which I love. I'm now classed as pre-diabetes. I blame the UK Food Standards Agency (FSA). The fact that there are scrotes out there who will mislead people and create health damaging foods to increase their profits, is a given. The FSA has failed to confront them.

I’m doing an AIP (auto-immune protocol) diet long term. That means I eat zero ultra processed food. Instead, I eat fresh vegetables, steak, chicken, or fish from the supermarket. I often cook without oil, but when I use oil it’s extra virgin olive oil or extra virgin coconut oil, or beef fat. Also no grains, and I limit my intake of carbs, but it’s not “keto” low. Sweet potatoes are welcome. The result? Pretty low cholesterol (total 160), very low triglycerides, low blood sugar, zero calcification of my arteries, low blood pressure. Of saturated fat, (ultra) processed foods, and sugar, in my experience, it is the processed foods and sugar that should be avoided. Saturated fat (again from non-ultra processed sources) doesn’t seem to cause a problem in this experiment of N=1 which is me.

When talking about "the sum of the evidence", we need to consider the quality of evidence, to see how admissible it is. Any "evidence" that is based on LDL cholesterol levels is not evidence at all, because it has never been established that high LDL cholesterol independently causes heart disease. It has been known for quite a while that the only LDL particles that correlates with heart disease and other forms of metabolic syndrome is damaged LDL particles that are too small and oxidized to be recognized by the liver and recycled, so they stay in circulation until they find some trouble to get into. The body actually uses healthy LDL particles to patch lesions in the arteries, but when damaged particles end up being part of the plaque, things only get worse. These zombie LDL particles are NOT the result of eating saturated fat; they are the result of eating too much linoleic acid and refined carbohydrates, or eating too much fructose when their liver glycogen stores are already full. I think that the "balanced diet" target that Sarah and many other diet experts like to talk about is a big part of the actual problem; our mitochondria do not deal with a high level of both glucose and fat available to them at the same time; either one has to be low for the mitochondria to work properly, otherwise, they create less energy and more hunger, causing people to eat or snack when they are already saturated with energy. Linoleic acid, BTW, is burned at half the rate of monounsaturated and saturated fat by mitochondria, which clearly indicates that it is NOT intended by the body to be used as fuel. It is called "essential" only because the body does not manufacture it from other molecules, and some is needed for construction of cells. It is in no way "essential" that we seek it out, because it is already overly abundant in just about every whole food item available, plant or animal.

An interesting discussion on many levels, thank you both. Could you direct me to the RCT evidence which you refer to please? Maybe not all of the hundreds, let’s say your top three to give me a flavour. I didn’t get the impression that you were saying any of them showed any causal link between saturated fat and disease, only some level or other of association with health markers - is that right? I’m puzzled why a nutrient which is essential for life and health (saturated fat) can be considered bad in general, good if it’s in dairy, not so good if it’s in coconuts and terrible if it’s in a sausage roll. Is it possible that these good bad or indifferent outcomes are not about the saturated fat at all? I don’t think the information presented here is sufficient to confidently direct a consumer away from any food just because of its saturated fat content. I’m open to being convinced otherwise. Just out of interest, are either of you two Vegetarian? Thanks again, Lowri

The number of people I’ve heard say they consume coconut oil with every meal for its health benefits scares me. It’s even worse when I try to tell them that this might not be the healthiest choice and see how blatantly close-minded they are.

Eating a piece of cheddar while watching your video, my net carb count for today is zero , lunch today will be a frittata made from eggs, cream , onion, bacon bits net carb count of 3-4. I’ve been keto for four years, blood tests all normal, weight and waist measurement the same as they were when I was 24.

The problem has never been about saturated fat, but the mass majority that have been taken for a ride by the medical establishment and eventually lost their basic common sense and well being and soon followed by their disappearing bank account. Many victims have died broke, without knowing what and why.

I hear from the Keto guys that it is saturated fat that gives you energy. Personally I have a weight problem….trying to keep it up, as a long distance runner, so needing an energy source that is not refined carbs.

I was shocked when she said she taught on fat for the past 20something years, as she looks so young for that

So now listeners are going to inadvertently eat more Omega-6 fatty acids. It’s going to happen. This is going to increase inflammation. I don’t think nutrition should be dealt with in shorts. It cannot be made simple.

It *****s me off that British butchers and eateries trim the fat (which is the best bit) off steaks and pork chops!!! *_R_* 😎

I have switched to intermittent fasting and avoiding processed food including refined carbs and sugar for the most part. Eddie Abbew was actually my initial inspiration for this (i know he's maybe not a qualified nutrionist). I am now eating a lot of eggs and red meat but I'm also eating oily fish, avocado and nuts and starting to add in some more cheeses like feta and halloumi. I still eat carbs but try to eat things like sweet potatoes / new potatoes instead of pasta and processed bread. Plus im eating a ton of spinach, broccoli and kale. Haven't done any blood work but so far I feel great and have lost a load of belly fat + not getting tired, hungry or sluggish.

Get your saturated fats from meat, eggs, fish and dairy. Don't eat ultraprocessed crap, regardless of what it's label says. Just eat real food.

These podcasts are so illuminating. I despair sometimes at the contradictatory and polarised views that are expressed in many nutrition channels and it's a treat to see a balanced view which is well supporterd with facts and research. Absolutely love it.

When I go to a supermarket I see shelves and shelves of vegetable oils. Not much animal fats. So the majority of the population is using vegetable oils. And probably the majority of people in hospital with heart disease have cooked with vegetable oils. Also over 100 years ago they cooked with lard and tallow and heart disease was very rare. ( only with people who drank a lot of alcohol). Heart disease increased when vegetable oil came on the market. And increasing further as people moved away from saturated fats and used vegetable oils. So how can Sarah say vegetable oils don’t cause any chronic diseases? There are scientific evidence that proves one side or the other. One thing is certain- we can’t deny our history!

Fun fact: the main fat in beef is oleic acid 18:1 (around 48%) the second fat is stearic acid 18:0 around 30%. Beef contains Omega 6 and omega 3 polyunsaturated fats. Most of the stearic acid is converted into oleic acid i our bodies. Studies show that stearic acid does not raise LDL like palmic acid 16:0 does. Olive oil can contain as little as 55% oleic acid, and as much as 18% palmic acid, although it usually has more oleic acid and less palmic acid than this.

Would really like to have some in depth on lipids/cholesterol and inflammation in relation to saturated fats. Have seen so much conflicting information recently citing studies where the mortality rates from cardiovascular disease and strokes is higher in those with lower cholesterol. Could the inflammatory markers Sarah Berry refers to be not due to the saturated fat but do with other factors in processed food? So a Short on the cholesterol debate would be great 😊

The trouble with cheese is it is full of fat and it can pack on the pounds. And it's hard to just consume that one inch square that is considered a serving.

Many of the calories in takeaways & processed foods are from the omega-6 rich sunflower oil. If the ratio of these PUFAs in diets is too high compared with omega-3s, a cascade resulting from prostaglandins produced, leads to increased inflammatory responses including weight gain with higher levels of fat deposited in adipose tissues

Could you please talk about the chemicals that come out from oil that is boiled several times like in chips and a lady told me about 40 years ago that produced cancer. So oil should not be boiled for a second time. My father used to have a pot with oil that never discarted and fried chips in it. He developed bowel cancer. In the UK adults and children are eating boiled oil several times a week even in chips in bags. I wonder why tbere is so much cancer in the UK Please could you comment on this?

Question for knowledge is water kefir health when you add sugar to the water I know it ferments the sugars but we are told that wine and beer can damage your health yet are also good for you in moderation

Any comments on trans unsaturated fats? I’m not sure whether it’s true, but I read a few years ago that these had a worse impact on health than saturates. Trans unsaturated fats can occur when unsaturated fats are partially hydrogenated whereas most natural unsaturated fats are cis-. Chimes well with the advice to avoid highly-processed foods.

I wish Zoe would talk about women’s cholesterol test. We are lumped in with men’s results.

I would love a discussion about healthy grass fed beef fat v grain fed. Everyone glosses over it as most of the studies are about cow fat are from US and consider grain fattened cows. Wake up

Remember low fat high sugar. The elephant in the room -sugar Not properly addressing meat fat…?? How comes we have MMR next generation technology but still can’t answer basic questions. I do appreciate her moderate response and maybe this will change in the future Those who swapped carbs for omega 3 or 6 or saturated fats did better per comment did better in what exactly? I agree with carbs, we consume more since 60s and heart attacks and obesity risen. But saturated fat is still not clear at this point. Could it be that some people burn fat better than carbs and suit more saturated fat than carbs alongside omega 3 and 6?

I would like to know something about the process that makes saturated fat "good for you" when it is contained in fermented dairy, such as full-fat Greek yogurt and Kifer (and cheese, as it's briefly mentioned). As asserted within this video, as well as other videos, on this channel. This is contrary to other nutrition research that I've read from researchers.

So cheese, a processed food is a good source of saturated fat?

I’m very happy to reduce my meat eating to almost nothing but hell will freeze over before I swap butter for any kind of margarine even if it has healthy fats!

good video. How about getting all of that condensed on to one chart??

Fascinating stuff! I would love to hear a bit about differences between men and women and how diets affect us...Having been listening to the BBC radio 4 podcast 28ish Days Later I would love to hear some thoughts on how intermittent fasting for example affects men and women differently

Great video, as usual; thanks! Please can you advise about plant sterols? My LDL-C has gradually increased since menopause. I’m 57, lean and active. I eat mostly a plant based diet, but do like full fat dairy… BMI = 19.5 so definitely don’t need to lose weight. I’ve found that plant sterols/stanols reduce my LDL-C quite effectively, but are they safe? If so, are they safer in tablet form, or added to margarine, yoghurt drinks etc.? The latter have a high sugar content.

Please can you talk more about the different types of saturated fats. Also the the context of saturated fat e.g. Higher saturated fat from wholefoods but in the context of a low carb, high fibre and protein diet vs high saturated fat combined with high refined carb/sugar diet

@Seanonyoutube Again, very bold statement!....as a clinical/research scientist, I can say that your statement is unfortunately not supported by actual unbiased science. What do you mean by "enough studies"? How can you ascertain that they've established "causation"? Who exactly designed those studies? Were all confounding factors ethically highlighted? What kind of statistical tools did they use and how were the data interpreted? A considerable proportion of Pro-plant based studies are notoriously known to have close to zero scientific value due to conflict of interests. Easily around 50% of publications are afflicted by this so we have to be very careful when relying on "enough studies" to establish nutritional guidelines for the planet!. You say "I bet that even if they aren't as healthy as sardines...etc." Well plant-based fats (other than algae) do NOT contain essential DHA/EPA as a matter of FACT. Conversion of ALA into DHA/EPA is also extremely poor in humans at less than 5% or so. So plant-based fats are NEVER "good enough" as you seem to be assuming. Even supplementation with omega3 have drawbacks as they've been proven to be oxidised/rancid and/or also contain toxic aldehydes out of the box (there's a trial...look it up). Supplementation can never fully replace a species specific diet consisting of animal-based food, more so in the case of DHA/EPA contrary to what pro-plant based "scientists/clinicians" are always trying to say. They are guided by ideology first rather than actual science. You can be "ok" if you are very careful but it's extremely hard to achieve "optimal" health long term without eating a species specific diet and that becomes more apparent the older people get.

There is another factor not discussed here and that is the problem with studies which didn’t control sugar intake while studying fat consumption. Sugar intake causes the liver to stop converting LDL cholesterol into HDL. Although swapping fat for refined carbs was discussed here. Many meats which have saturated fare also have high monounsaturated fat.

Still a bit of hedging bets going on then. So is fat from meat ok or not if the meat has just come off the animal and not contained in a pie or such like? After this short still a bit misunderstood I think.

Is dairy the only exception? Is there anywhere I should go to find out more about why it's an exception?

Surprised that the low carb way of eating wasn't discussed?

Is C8 MCT oil the same as palmitic acid?

The latest fat villain is oils from seeds. But are they really dangerous, and if so, why?

How selective is the lady about tha fat.... cheese is good but meat is bad.....see the logic and reason....

Where can we view the disclosures that are relevant to any interviewees? Indeed where any funding comes from to producing the podcast.

Very interesting and I’m a little gobsmacked! Coming from someone who’s suffered with controlling high cholesterol and blood sugar the last few years, I’m sure I heard Zoe right, but just wanted to confirm. Basically saturated fat is fine if it comes from dairy but in moderation? My question is on my porridge I have every morning would I be better off having full fat milk on it and the skimmed I have?? Also, what spread would be best on bread. Are you suggesting proper butter would be better than the spread such as Bertolli I currently have which is supposed to help lower cholesterol??

Another great talk. Thanks ZOE

Is there any information on the effect of coconut fat on the body versus animal fat?

Hang on, what saturated are you demonizing? Refined or unrefined in the study? Are the saturated fat ever been stated at all?

Could be somewhat clearer advice? I took away: Avoid Ultra processed foods and refined carbohydrates . Hoping advice in paid Zoe health programme is a lot clearer than this podcast

Very helpful thank you. I would like to cut down on butter on my toast - what low salt healthier alternative would you suggest?

“Felton et al compared the fatty acid composition of aortic plaques with serum and human fat samples from post mortems. The blood and tissue samples reflected dietary intake. Their conclusions were as follows: “Positive associations were found between serum and plaque omega 6 (r=o.75) and omega 3 (r=0.93) polyunsaturated fatty acids, and monounsaturates (r=0.7) and also between adipose tissue and plaque omega 6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (r=0.89). No associations were found with saturated fatty acids. These findings imply a direct influence of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids on aortic plaque formation and suggest that current trends favouring increased intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids should be reconsidered.” “ The Lancet 1994. More info can be found in book “ The Obesity Epidemic “ by Dr Zoe Harcombe, available from Amazon.

I think you need to also mention more about context of how the food is eaten...high fat in combination with high carbohydrate consumption as per the Randle Cycle confuses the body as it can only burn one substrate at a time and store the other. MOST people eat mixed macro diets and so when doing interventional studies, it is very hard to mechanistically say that any high saturated food 'causes' a worse health outcome, unless the control trials take account of this. There is also emerging evidence that polyunsaturated fats contribute to hypertrophy of the adipocytes (fat cells) and also hormone issues....and certainly they are unstable when cooking. Again saturated fats are very stable when cooked.

What do you say about grass fed meat saturated fat still on the meat not processed ?

@Seanonyoutube Bold statement. Says who exactly? How can you assess/appraise the validity of these "outcome data" ? Do you actually understand the effect of oxidation on the body? A chronically high concentration of PUFAs with high double bond content that far exceeds the required pro vs anti inflammatory balance EXPONENTIALLY increases the risk of oxidation and damage. It is certainly NOT "meaningless". I would suggest some more research on the matter.

The next time you address this subject, please tell us why some people feel that butter isn't harmful at all.

Great series. Helpful info. thanks

Hi Zoe team, Jonathan and Dr Sarah. I would very much like to gt your insights on seed oils. Are they a peril to health or not, or of course, is it just more complicated than that? Thanks.

Once again Zoe health ‘experts’ peddling confusing messages about fats and foods. People don’t need to know about double bonds etc, they just need the message that if it still looks like the food in it’s natural, unprocessed form it is okay for most people to eat ie. Fruit, vegetables , meat, fish, eggs and dairy

I know you hate keto people, but I can tell you I eat more healthy than most of the people I know. Salmon, cheese, live homemade full fat yoghurt, grass finished meats and BIG salads. 👍

If saturated fat is so bad then why is it present in human breast milk?

Good video, plenty to think about 🤔

It is more nuanced. The studies are observational, asking people to fill in questionaires. So, utter bollox.

"good source" of SFA? Anyone with an evidence based mindset should ask for evidence for that claim. How is cheese a "good" source of something that increases the risk of CVD?

What about lard is that ok to consume ?

No need to decrease your intake of steak and eggs. Increase them, actually. Replace the highly processed foods with fatty cuts of steak and eggs. Coconut oil is healthy if unprocessed. Refined coconut oil is bad. Unrefined virgin, good.

This host has not asked the right questions. She should be pressed on 4-HNE, 9 & 13 HODE from the peroxidation of linoleic acid.

So eliminate most refined carbs, probably all ultra-processed foods. What do we substitute for saturated fats? Not clear.

Very informative! Thank you.

I like traditional foods including food from other countries so have for from animals as well as oils but have a preference like olive and rapeseed don’t like the taste of coconuts so no coconut oil

Skin-deep, sorry. Lots of 'this is good for you and this is bad for you' but no elaboration on the data and what it shows. For instance, coconut oil... most studies show it's not good for you? Okay, why? What do the studies show? What is it linked to? Same with fats from meat. If they are bad, why is that?

Thank you

My health has improved since cutting out milk/ yogurt still eat cheese tho..

Cross fit health watch seems like your one of the people fr.fung talks about

You are not clear on polyunsaturated fat. polyunsaturated fat is from vegetable oil (seed oil, used to be a lubrication oil, before the were highly processed so they were edible). Poly unsaturated oil; contains high levels of omega 6. This makes LDL sticky and causes plaque, then heart attacks. Saturated fat (from animals) does not have that effect and does not make you fat.

What about the French Paradox. Zoe Harcombe has shown a correlation between the average cholesterol level per country and plotted it again cvd and all cause mortality and shown a reverse correlation.

sat fat is most stable of all fats

Do you mean to say that what Nina Reichold tells us in her books and lectures about saturated fats is all completely wrong event though she seems to have a very solid ground for her statements?

You would have to wonder how the human race ever survived given the supposedly bad effects of saturated fats which would have been consumed for thousands and thousands of years. Also the carnivore diet appears to be the ultimate healthy diet.

Bread and pasta are important and great foods, as long as they are made of whole grains. It gets very confusing to hear these foods mentioned as if they are all refined and should be avoided. Also, dairy is not great, for many reasons. It should be treated like red meat so if eaten at all it should be very small quantities. My personal anecdote is that after being a lacto vegetarian for over 40 years I switched to fully vegan, got an autoimmune disease into remission, reversed my deteriorating eyesight, stopped having yearly colds, no more puffy eyes, etc. 11 years fully plant exclusive now, I just wish I would have quit dairy sooner.

This is out of date when she says should stay away from saturated fats. Bacon, butter, palm oil, eggs all great healthy saturated fats.

very wise words Sarah ...

Good morning health life truo

Trans fats? help! :D

When does Zoe address: A) the evolutionary aspect? Our systems developed before we farmed broccoli, oats , quinoa and lentils - when we were just starting to herd sheep, goats and (later) cows. Did we instruct the cave-frau to cut the meat off the chops and toss the fatty pheasant skin away? If not, why did evolution drive us to become morbidly sick from these products - at least according to Sarah, but not according to many other respected trialists. And B) - why do the vast majority of meta-analyses of RCTs (when corrected for blatant fudging, Cochrane or not) show that Obelisk was quite correct to want boar fat in addition to his loganberries and bean sprouts? Why did Hopwood's 2015 paper become almost an embarassment, and why was even her follow-up 2016 work also methodologically critisised - not just Patty Siri-Tarino's 2010) and C) why are fats that are more easily oxidised (go rancid) better for us than reindeer haunch or seal blubber - thinking ease of metabolic corruption? Jonathan, it would go a very long way to strive to settle this very annoying and unuseful clash of diametrically opposed "scientific" views by you facilitating an evidence-based well-referenced discussion between Sarah and (say) Zoë Harcombe. In fact it could be the hit nutritionist video of this century. Up for it?

Excellent advice.

Low level info

To say coconut oil is bad is really very very lame

PLEASE, SPEAK, SLOW DOWN

People aren’t going to switch saturated fats for olive oil and nuts. They are going to keep on using processed foods with soybean oil, canola oil and sunflower oil. You two don’t address this at all. You leave this entire nebulous area for people who don’t understand nutrition and never will be able to. You are inadvertently pushing them towards increased Low quality Omega-6 fatty acid consumption.

Zoe: Take a look at podcasts by Profs Huberman and Seuhelt who manage to deliver far more useful health content and clear actionable advice with less promotion of own commercial content. Cheeky observation: Prof Spector a much better communicator than your CEO

Whole plant diet.

It's all opinion. Nobody knows anything certain about these topics, fats, heart disease and the rest, especially experts!