So what scale tips do you folks have?

I've never actually found a video or tutorial of any kind that covers this subject this well, thank you Mel!

I've noticed the same thing in many computer games - they also use a kind of abstract scaling to make games be actually playable, and not just 'walking simulators' with occasional splashes of action. If one looks at a typical MMO(RPG), everything is scrunched up so that it's possible to run from a town, over a hill, across a stream and get to the bandit camp. In absolute scales, you'd be walking/running for hours just to get to the camp. Abstract scale also lends itself well to the 'cartoony' style of many games, where many terrain features and items are out of scale relative to the characters to lend a visual emphasis.

The Railroad system is based around names Lionel 'O' scale of the pre-war era. O is approximately 1:43, HO (Half-O) is 1/2 O scale at about 1/87. S scale is "Standard" scale used by American Flyer. G scale is Garden scale, designed for outdoor use, TT scale is Table-top scale (designed in the 50's to fit on the average American dining room table) N scale is called N for no real reason (originally called OOO or 1/3O for being at 1/160), and Z scale is called Z because it is the smallest possible scale (it's small enough that you could fit an entire layout in a briefcase!).

Oh well the nostalgia.. played with toy soldiers, in fact that’s what they all are, all my life. From the earliest playmobil, into roughly 54mm toyfigures, such as timpo, britains, starlux, elastolin.. Together with the many 1:72 plastic figures, 20mm as you call it. You know, airfix, matchbox, esci, revell, amongst many others. Then in the seventies started with making tin soldiers, mainly 40mm en 25mm. Prince august, the black rubber moulds and nürnberger meister zinn, the aluminium ones with yellow parts. Then a huge gap, because, let’s be fair, music, girls and alcohol, and just life in general. Only the hobby picked up again some 15 years ago. Now, the golden age of 1:72, 20mm and the whole new world of 28mm. So much to collect and to paint and to build! Keep up coming the nice vids mel, cheers from holland

"We don't Wargame in 54mm" Laughs in inquisitor

Two things I've discovered: 1) The Plasticville O-Scale buildings work amazingly well with 28mm models. If you're looking for buildings in the "Americana" mold, the Plasticville offerings are pretty excellent. They also use an abstract scale, using correctly sized doors and windows to create the illusion of true scale, while the buildings themselves are significantly smaller than they would be in real life. They also are very easy to assemble with removable roofs allowing access to interiors. 2) Though they should be massively oversized, I find that 1:43 scale cars work exceptionally well with 28mm models. True scale cars tend to look too small because the miniatures tend to have a base that adds height to the model, making them seem to loom over the cars, but that same base means they look nice standing next to the 1:43 cars. This is great for modern wargamers, because it means that cars can be picked up quite cheaply (I once bought a box of 24 police cruisers for US$10), and that there are a huge number of cars from movies available.

Hey buddy. I must start off by saying i am not into wargaming or model making but i seen one of your videos in my recommend feed and checked it out. I subscribed to your channel because your passion and enthusiasm is infectious. You seem like someone I'd buy a beer or two for just for the company. Also i know of your home town from one of my passions.... Strong man competitions. Last year's world strongest man Eddie Hall lives in the same town. Much love and many blessings from the U.S.

One thing when you mentioned Abstract scale that came to my mind was that some wargames don't even have an internal consistency to their scale! Flames of War has a 15 mm scale... Most of the time. Infantry, tanks, artillery, all a scale of 1:100. But aircraft have a scale of 1:150. Now, either that was done to make the planes smaller and more manageable, or there are more 1:150 scaled aircraft miniatures available, I don't know, but that's a fun little tidbit I think at least someone will have a chuckle at.

So we build our own...I accept the challenge...eventually... Gathering supplies, tossing ideas about. You got a cool channel, and this video was enlightening on scaling. Building a terrain piece so a vision impaired friend can get close to see...

And on a more serious note, if you assume a man is 5 foot 6 inches to the eye, then they would be a six foot tall man. So, in 4mm (1/76th) a man would be 22mm to the eye wargaming figure, which is approximately old school 25mm figure. And that is at the core of the confusion between wargame figures that are a height size versus figures that are a size from the scale ratio. The reason for some of the changes to proportions of the figure are due to the necessity of making smaller figures robust enough to be handled. Here's a link to an illustration that compares heights to scales.

Just a note, doll house scale is usually 1/12. Very good for creating details.

Brigade Models do a range of 1:1200 scale buildings across a variety of periods. A lot of historical wargames (pre WW1) use a mix of scales - figure scale (the size/scale of each figure), troop scale (how many men each figure represents) and ground scale (derived from figure scale and troop scale) Often the scale of buildings used will be somewhere between the ground scale and the figure scale, eg 10mm buildings for games with 15mm figures. Abstract scales tend to be for large skirmish sci-fi games and a certain historical one written by a former writer of a large skirmish sci-fi. Chain of Command uses a ground scale of 1:120, but artillery and mortars are off-table. For 28mm gaming, there are two potential sources of scatter terrain (furniture for instance) - architectural models and dolls house bits.

Excellent tutorial, spot on. I feel like scale depends a great deal on what you want to accomplish on the table or with the game rules. I think that this issue goes hand in hand with your Terrain Triad -- Scale can refer to so many aspects of the table: Figure scale, unit scale (how many men to a fig I mean), Ground scale, Time scale... I have found for example that rules designed for say 15mm Naopleonic stuff (large battles) with a ground scale of 50 yds to an inch, or even 100yds to the inch, look even better (and make much more visual sense) when played with say 10mm or even 6mm miniatures...that also adds to the possibilities for terrain. Another consideration for terrain is 'does it really have an impact on the fighting/soldiers - or is it just for show' in which case use something smaller. I have seen a table at a convention here in the states with some beautiful 28mm Sarissa buildings on them - the problem was that they dominated the table at the 'absolute scale' and made everything else look way too small for a skirmish level game.

I've been impressed with the few videos I've seen and this one is so informative! Subscribed!

One wargame you can totally scale right and still use a six foot board is GHQ micro armor, their models are amazing and scaled at 1/285th. Also GHQ has a hexagon terrain system that works amazing as both terrain and a way of measuring movement.

this is why I use 1/285/300 for all games that use any kind of armor, planes/spaceships and artilleries. I do mix&match models from bigger scales if i find it better suiting to my theme.

I'm an architect and it took me ages to work out the 28mm vs 1:56 thing, I'm so used to working in ratio scales

Very informative. I was looking at making a dio with a rail line in it. I asked a friend which scale I should use for 1/35 and was told "N" scale. Personally, I've never heard of "I" scale before, but that sounds like the ticket

Clear and concise. Brilliant!

I was born into 25mm with AD&D 1e and 28mm with Warhammer 3e, so these will always be my scale. Personally I like detailed gaming models and these scales provide the best details for humans, humanoids, and the like (though now expanded with Star Wars Legion at 35mm).

There are a few board games from Fantasy Flight that have 54 mil models for skirmish but they are usually just figures, not terrain models. Any terrain is usually represented abstractly with larger tokens.

I use 1/35 in Military Static Diorama Scale as opposed to 1/72 which is smaller model of course. ie a German Panzer Tank in a Diorama which still means I can scale down my buildings a bit watching your vids on the buildings. thanks again!

Just stumbled across this video. Thank you for explaining this as well as you did.

The N in N scale actually stands for Nine as there is 9mm between tracks, this is constant across the international variations in scale. There are 3 variations of N scale 1:148 UK, 1:160 US and most of the rest of world, and 1:150 which is used in Japan.

Great video , I also like that you bring up the railroad scale vrs terrain boards railroad makers have alot more leeway in their builds

I am going to be the constructive critic great job you really needed to bring out figure and terrain or structures for a visual it would have made the video so much better and engaging. Thanks nice work

Something quite important because it was talked about extensively: 1:56th scale vehicles will not fit your 28mm miniatures, especially the Bolt Action stuff! That may sound weird, but Warlord just made an executive decision to use that scale, and it's not a big deal if you just use it for wargaming. But if you want to create dioramas true to scale you're better off with the 1:48th scale (Tamiya has a lot, for reasonable prices) or 1:50th scale model and toy cars (etc.). That is also my tip for the day; for terrain and vehicles you can scour your local toy shops, dollar stores and ebay for 1:50th scale toys.If you want some cheap furniture and other good stuff, look up architect supply shops, they have stuff in 1:52nd scale in a wide variety for small money! Even toilets, sinks and bicycles!As always, love your video Mel, have a good one!

Thanks Mel, this was a really useful and informative video!

There's also special railroad set/scale of objects called usually "H0/TT". They supposed to be universal for this systems (so 1:87 and 1:120) and the scale is usually around 1:100. Trees and other natural things without exact sizes.

Thanks for this. I've been having the dissonance of scaling trying to build things.

Yet again, you have helped me Immensely.

This is an awesome video! My son plays warhammer, I like Star Wars legions. It appears they are both about 28mm. So we should be able to use the same terrains

Funny enough many 6mm systems which deal with tanks and so work on a different mapscale, so they can keep realistic weapon ranges (modern tanks shoot 2km or more so they would need a table over 7 meters for something to be out of range) So often you have a scale of 1 inch = 50m, use real world weapon data but your terrain still is 1:285/300 to look nice on the table. Battletech as a sci-fi game also does its minis in 1:285 but the maps are 1:1200.

railroad scaling has to do with the distance between the rails. Scale Scale Ratio Model gauge N 1:160 0.353 in (8.97 mm) TT 1:120 0.470 in (11.94 mm) 0.472 in (12 mm) 12 mm (0.472 in) HOn2 or 3.5 mm 1:87.1 7 mm (0.276 in) HOn30 or 3.5 mm 1.87.1 9 mm (0.354 in) (0.353 in.)

Love scales... playing with 6mm (1:300) while obstacles and buildings are in 1:600, to add larger towns. the rails are Z, and rule messurements are in inch, but I based the units on 2cm, rather than 2,5cm. The confusion becomes perfect after the gaming party desided to scale our messuring sticks up from 3 to 5 cm to speed up gaming, calling everything 100 foot. A total mess... but some how works. ;-)

great video sir. note to my other comments. I have been trying to make some terrain with stuff I find in the house garage trash bin or with material purchased. When I was young family used to go out to the desert by San Diego and we would collect rock specimens and we would buy some rocks from geological shows so I've got a lot of good hill n mountain pieces to work with to create obstructions in the field, or the Himalayas to your left flank...

The best way I've been described scale is like this: If it is 1/87 or 1:87 that means it is 87 times smaller than the original, just like 1/48 or 1:48 is 48 times smaller than the original. It does get confusing when people talk about scale in millimetres, just find out what scale ratio is related to the model that is in millimetres eg 18.5mm and find out what that ratio is which is 1/87 scale. So 15mm scale is 1/107 which is 107 times smaller than the original. To prove it is pretty accurate a 1:220 (1/220) tree that is 50mm or approx 2 inches tall, multiply the 50mm by 220 and that will give you it's actual height, of 11,000mm or 11 metres. To put it into feet and inches that would be 10 metres is approx 30 ft and there approx 3 feet in a metre that means the tree is approx 33 feet high (33'). if using feet and inches just remember to to convert accordingly. Another quick example is a model train that is 1/87 (1:87) 200mm or approx 8 inches in length, multiply 200mm by 87 and that will give you it's length of 17,400 mm or 17.4 meters or in inches 8" x 87 = 696" inches. Divide te 696" by 12" (which is 1 foot) and that will give you 58 Feet (58'). It is the usage of millimetres, eg 15, 23.5, 6 etc describing scale without using scale ratio eg 1/43, 1/56, 1/32 etc that confuses people sometimes especially when it comes to conversion. I still get confused too.....If a car is 5.5 metres long and you would like to convert it to a scale of 1/160, convert 5.5 meters into millimetre so it is 5,500mm then divide it by your appropriate scale of 160 which will give you 34.375mm for you scaled car length.

When Mythic Games' Time of Legends: Joan of Arc kickstarter delivers, there's going to be a bunch of 15mm terrain that gets released with it. IIRC, there's a medieval village pack, an abbey, a castle set, as well as a large inn.

What an amazing video, I have been modelling and wargaming since the early 60s and I learned so much from your instruction. If you want to get more of a background to the history of some of the scales get back to me and perhaps we could have a chat. PS. Is a dollar still 5 shillings/ 25p?

in years of wargaming i have only come across 1 game in absolute scale, Force on Force. an Argentinian with an FAL has a range of "Can i draw line of sight". the game balances this with Training being a huge factor.

Great vid Mel. Thanx for addressing this subject. I'm sure we are all now completely befuddled, lol. In other words, if it LOOKS RIGHT, go with it. BTW, we are still waiting for tutorials on smaller scale terraining. Hint, hint. ;-)

Most miniature manufacturers aren't even able to keep the same scale. Warlord for example is all over the place ranging from almost 25mm to 28mm somewhat heroic - and the vehicles and buildings are even worse. They will happily sell you 1:72 stuff for Bolt Action for example. My general rule for scale is: fuck it, as long as it looks cool it's fine

Even model railroad scales aren't set in stone. In H0 buildings there's a lot of difference too. Some buildings, even within a range like Faller's, are leaning more towards 1/100, meant to be (cheaper) background models that give a forced perspective. Auhagen even has a small range that it explicitly labels H0/TT. They are perfect for 15mm gaming, FOW.

A complex subject well handled. Good job.

Hey Mel you forgot Dropfleet Commander, the scale for that is 1: 15,000 ;) Great talk btw very informative.

Thank you so much for this video. I'm only halfway through it; I will finish it tomorrow (it's late) But I am trying to scratch-build some buildings and other terrain for 15mm and the scale was driving me crazy. I was trying to use absolute scale, and the commercial examples I looked at were too small. But anything I designed with realistic proportions was too big for the table.

Hey Mel, Nice vid for an introduction and explanation for new folks [as usual], although some other folks may be unhappy that you didn't mention their preferred scale [as usual]. I tend to hit the wikipedia mini scale page for a comparison of fractional scale, railway scale and eye-height mm scale: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes - I find it quite useful when working out how things will look when together on-table. IMO, 28mm minis don't scale that well with 1/56 vehicles, so I prefer 1/50 or 1/48 (even some 1/43) - although the range available is obviously smaller that the growing variety of 1/56 stuff from the recent explosion in interest in various WWII games at that scale. Thanks for keeping the good content coming. Cheers, mate.

Wow - that is a lot of info in a fairly short vid - GREAT JOB!!!!!!

Railway modeling does use letters to denote scale but they're actually just shorthand for fractional scale. O scale = 1:48, HO scale = 1:96, etc...

As you noted most wargames user a foreshortened ground scale compared to the height of the models. if a 28mm model is supposed to represent a 6 foot soldier then one inch needs to represent close to 70 inches. You need to consider something close to the vertical height of the model to ensure things like Line of Sight work. for 28 mm models you want to have the ceilings about 2" high so models look OK up against the eaves. You might want to scale down the footprint of a building to something closer to the ground scale. Although you might end up with something that look like it belongs in Noddy town or Roger Rabbit.

I use H-O scale and 25 mm in my Civil War minns. Because I use H-o buildings. In my fantasy use 25mm or 28mms. Trees are H-O scale.

Probably mentioned before, but S scale is close to 28mm

The Sails of Glory ships you showed are 1:000. A lot of other naval games use 1:200. There's actually a fair amount of buildings and such for those scales being made by companies like Langton and Brigade Models.

I want to say thanks. It is an important skill to have if you are going to buy or build for yourself. The purists are gong to complain but no one really cares.

Thanks, Mel. Good subject. I am used to it, but it would have been nice to have this info when I started. LOL

Heat wave lolol I am in Vegas...my cold is 26, and a pleasant 41 out. :P Keep up the great vids!!

Yup! Train scale is pretty much the distance between the tracks.

Great info as always. I build 1/56.

Disappointed you missed 20mm, possibly the widest selection for ww2 and napoleonic in plastic, Resin and metal. Big bonus is the buildings from model railway manufacturers.

I work in OO guage 4mm to the foot or 6 feet equals 1 inch or 1:76 ratio the dilemmas of scales. My partner is 6 foot so I have a perfect height pole when taking photos.

Great vid Mel!

I think that GW 8mm scale is for Adapetus Titanicus, which has the Imperial Knights as the standard unit, and the massive Warlord Titan as a special unit you can buy that's 6 inches tall. So if they did that in 10mm it would balloon those Warlord models to... 7.2 inches? I think. Darned things are $110 USD as it is.

GW started off 25mm, not 28mm, back when they were working with Ral Partha. And most roleplaying minis continue to be 25mm. The scale gets more funky when you consider that the mm scale is based on specifically a 2m tall human male standing upright in a neutral position. GW and many fantasy mini makers have a variety of races who may not average out to 2m tall, and as such those minis may be bigger or smaller accordingly. GW moved up to 28mm during the late 90s and early 00s; kind of... mainly only the Space Marines though initially since they're genetically engineered super human beefcakes in massive power armor. They needed to look appropriately bulky. The latest change started with Age of Sigmar moving straight up to "28mm Heroic Scale", which for most of the models is actually just 32mm scale, but allows you to keep using your 25-28mm WH Fantasy models. So lots more weirdness as a result. This new line is all digitally modeled instead of hand sculpted too, which means all the models are in-scale to one another. Now 40K is moving up to officially being 28mm across the entire line with Space Marines and other units, who are intended to be massive and chunky per the lore of the game, being in the 28mm Heroic/32mm scale. This is also being done digitally with all models being in-scale to one another, _except for vehicles_ which are slightly smaller than they ought to be. Ultimately, this leads to AoS looking larger than 40K even under the new scaling. And the digital modeling means all new models are much more consistent regardless of their pose, gear, etc. as well as having cleaner/sharper details for paint nuts like me :)

Thank you this has been so helpful

Hey Mel, I was just wondering what your thoughts on 1/72 scale. I recently got a bunch of medieval miniatures in this scale and am wondering what my options for buildings are. I see a lot on ebay but that tends to be the majority of the variety.

No mention of 20mm, 1/72 lot of WW2 in that scale.

Hello mate 28mm is the size 1/56 is the scale in Bolt action.

The Abstract Skraelings really confused the heck out of Leif Erikson and his Vikings in Vinland.

I'm pretty sure GW's Inquistor game was 54 mm scale. Also regarding Railway scales, at least in the US, you're very likely to find O (1:45), HO (1:87), and N (1:160) scales. Smaller you might be able to find Z scale (1:220), but I haven't seen much of it around. O is fairly common, and HO (which originally meant "half-O") is by far the most common. S-Scale (1:64) is great for gaming needs, but is basically not available in the US. Might be better to find that in Europe?

thats amazing,thank you so much for sharing.

54mm is common in old school war gaming using Britains or equivalent sized figures. It is a niche area but not without its followers.

I think I followed along?!

Very interesting ! 👍🏻

actually for 28mm...using train stuff you want to use "S"scale it's a perfect fit....

One thing you didn't really touch on is that most wargames figures aren't proportioned strictly to scale, they're generally a lot bulkier and chunkier. As a result wargame scaled figures and strict modelling scaled items don't look right next to eachother. You really have to judge things by eye, and take into account things like base thicknesses. I use 28mm minis and mix 28mm wargames terrain with O scale railroad buildings, with vehicles in 1:50, 1:48 and even 1:43 die cast cars. It really is best not to worry too much about the numbers and focus on the overall visual effect.

Actually, really useful

i work in 1:72 scale and its hard to find stuff to do my diarama's i realy have lernt a lot from you over the years ive been following you MEL thanks again mate , and heheheheh heat wave i wish it winter in australia at the moment and ive been getting high's of 8 to 12 degrees celsiouse cant wait for summer when we get high's of over 40 c, oh by the way im broke as so i have to make my stuff

So with this being addressed, im going to risk sounding like an idiot and saying that the Necromunda terrain walls from GW seems like they're off-scale to the rest of the 40k stuff. Is it just me?

Good job

God bless 3D printing. And printing in general.

28mm when you were 12? You missed out on the true 25mm minis then... all the original fantasy & RPG minis, like the beautiful sculps by Julie Guthrie and her like. I still have a load of those. I always thought the upscaling was because it was easier to sculpt in more detail. You also missed out 2mm (or 3mm) scale, AKA 1:600 or so, a common ship modelling scale, also now available for wargamers. You have to see the aircraft, tanks and even infantry by Oddzial Osmy to believe the detail they can sculpt in. Personally I'll stick to 10mm. Or 12mm. Or 1:144. Or 1:150. Or 1:160. Or N gauge. There's a world of possibilities there. I can game in a compatible scale all the way from dinosaurs (sadly outdated with no feathers) up to Star Wars...

You are awesome!

TMP indeed looks like nothing has changed since 1998, but I still visit it daily. There are loads of useful info, especially on message boards.

I think you could have said that there is "model scale" and there is "map scale" and they aren't the same. Of course some buildings are in "model scale" so you could say there's "map layout scale".

Warlord Games’ Doctor Who Exterminate skirmish wargame minis are 40mm, which is odd and irritating for building scale. What’s the ratio for that size of mini?

How's the heat wave treating you? I've heard some nasty stories from my sister living in London, as well as some folks I know in Nottingham.

You know American and Japanese have S Gauge and Sn3½ Gauge. Which is 28mm scale.

for fantasy gaming scale is not that much of a problem, if there is a slight discrepancy in eye level it is genetics/ethnicity or a region has a less nourishing diet. Also if you are not married to tolkein fantasy you can make up a monstrous race to explain away any sizing issues. :)

i enjoy all your showes, i am a beginer, only made 4 cabins useing maatch sticks and tooth pickes,could you help me by letting me know were i can buy details on how to work out a scale, and were i can purchas minetures , like cowboys, animals, plus if you know of were there is to be a large show, of dioramas, and modeling, my cabin are aroung 4 ft high, and the doors are 1 inch high, hoping you can help me , ime sure enjoying making the, i live in barnstable devon, thank you fred plews

It's 50c here💥

what about 20mm 1/87 1/72 1/76 there are large number of gamer that play games like bolt action in these scales and the old standard 25mm there are lot of gamers that still play in this scale and back in the day the main difference in hight of figs in the same scale was there was two schools of thought from ground to eye and ground to top of head now we use mostly use ground to eye for scale and to build thing a number of gamers use 1"=6' just to mix thing up some more

👍 🚂🚃🚃🚃 Sorry to burst your bubble, buildings & rolling stock in model railroading are usually scaled down to about 80%, and no one ever sees the difference 😸 the height of the rolling stock is usually absolute, the length abstract, due to the curvature of the track which is always far too narrow. Full scale length would make it virtually impossible to run a train without massive overhang or even derailing. There's almost always some sort of compromise between functionality and "correct" exterior design. 😼 🚂🚃🚃🚃

I new to this

I am finding that ploberm no with the scaleing

It's a damn shame 1/28 scale is non existent cause I'm really interested in building a scale ebisu for my rc drift car

It hard with sererpler like bandi etc

Scale in model railways are denoted by a letter and each letter corrisponds to the scale this is absolute scale 9/10 times, G scale for example is 1:32 as is what is commonly called Gauge 1, a example of the scales being a tad abstract is with the HO and OO scales. HO is a exact scale at 1:87 but OO scale which while using the same track as HO is 1:76 they are fully compatible but OO models will be a bit larger compared to the track which is 1:87 for standard gauge which is four foot eight and one half inches tall. As a lover of trains I have much of this committed to memory well the scale differences anyway, exact math I have to use digital means. Here is a way to tell if a railway model is meant to run on Standard gauge if it was a 1:1 scale, www.flyingscotsman.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Flying-Scotsman-in-steam-at-the-East-Lancashire-Railway-Liam-Barnes-1024x683.jpg see something like that it's standard gauge scale, i.ytimg.com/vi/FEEAmJQ8TOE/hqdefault.jpg something akin to this is Narrow Gauge. A lot tough to figure out if the models represent American locomotives since even Narrow Gauge engine were quite massive due to the needs of the nation. Personally I like European and British locos more (That includes Australia by the way.) Far more elegant in design

Cool...

6mm terrain stores based in the UK I think they supply worldwide. timecastmodels co uk and battlescale com