Beethoven wasn't out to channel the future, but he inadvertently did so. He was pushing the envelope, as he did throughout his entire career and yes, he ended up composing a small passage which happens to be the first piece of ragtime cum jazz ever composed. Regardless if one accepts it or not, it's what Betthoven did.

That sonata is just otherworldly… just a few bars of it and it catches my breath, and start feeling some beautiful anguish

Well that's his own interpretation...it's not like the students aren't allowed to disagree. But in order to teach you cannot be objective about something as abstract like music. He tells them what he thinks, then shows them afterwards...and they are allowed to disagree. He's neither absolutely rigth or wrong. There's no absolute thruth. But he is a man with great knowledge on Beethoven...and he's an amazing pianist!

i cant help but feel the swing

Those of us Americans, who have called it the "Boogie-Woogie Variations" ever since we ourselves played it, do so with tongue well-planted in cheek, so his objection, _prima facie_, is sustained. This music is radical. Those syncopations, hammered in the bass, at the 64th note, rock hard -- well past boogie-woogie. Late in his life, Beethoven explored other worlds. Amazingly, he somehow was able to report back to us in breathtaking style. Thank the gods...

A few years back, I had the great experience of attending one of Sir Andras' recitals in San Francisco. That, believe me, was indeed a masterclass in performance practice, and it was a deeply satisfying traversal of time and space that left we the audience feeling we had taken part of a sumptuous, nourishing meal. Bravo, Sir Andras, and thank you! 😁🙏

I arranged this whole last movement into a boogie---I will record it and post it on KZfaq. Andras Schiff cant face the fact that this piece DOES seem to sound like it is trying to swing. I don't trust a pianist who doesn't like boogie woogie either. LOL

Of course RAM would put this boogie-woogie in the title despite Schiff abhorring the comparison to jazz.

darkness, light, earth, heaven, stars, human spirit

The variations develop organically out of each other. If the third one resembles ragtime or jazz, it is because, as Schiff points out, we are looking back at Beethoven through all of the experiences we have had since then. But if someone wants to use this as an example of Beethoven being ahead of his time, that's OK too.

I've never heard this as boogie woogie because it's so clearly Beethoven.

There's nothin wrong in boogie woogie itself. But the problem is that the association with boogie woogie dims this sonata's meaning: it's a goodbye and a thanksgiving to everything and to God. Indeed the difficulty of the second variation is to NOT play it like a boogie rythm. This sonata is a "gratia".

lol@ all the commenters who are so offended their deep deep love of boogie boogie which they listen to 12 hours a day, isn't shared by a classical pianist. if you listened for the next minute or so you'll hear him explain that his main reason for avoiding thinking of other genres is because the piece has a deep spiritual feeling that needs to flow from beginning to end, and I totally totally agree with him (even if I do like jazz and boogie boogie lol)

@sunpowernatural I tend to agree. If some random composer of no merit would have made the 3rd variation, then sure you could write it off as a coincidence. However, we are writing about Beethoven, one of the if not THE (debatable, I know) most forward thinking composer who has ever lived, who pushed the envelope in so many directions (ex: Große Fuge, op. 133), that if he happened to be the first person to compose a ragtime / jazz - like musical variation, we shouldn't be surprised.

If beethoven was deaf at the time of composing this work, anything would have happend to sound jazzi. But it's pure genious nothing else. Bcz without having ears, he went deeper into his soul. 😍👌

First: Being famous and respected doesn't make everything one says apodictic and unconditionally true. Schiff may, being an experienced pianist and musician, have given the things he talks about more thought than someone else might have, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to blindly believe what he says without reflecting on it. Second: What you are talking about are not opinions, but facts. (continued...)

Beethoven was so advanced in his musical thinking he revolutionized music twice: his heroic period (3nd & 5th Symphonies, Pathetique sonata, middle quartets) and his transcendental period (late piano sonatas and quartets, 9th Symphony, Missa Solemnis). I disagree with Schiff, I think Beethoven, now deaf, was uncovering musical possibilities so advanced of his musical age that he uncovered ragtime in op. 111.

my friend and I were discussing this piece tonight. I admit, I understand very little about the technicalities of music; however, I think Schiff's notion is problematic: that the 'jazz' we hear is an issue of development not jazz: Beethoven is sublime, not jazz which is '...'. He doesn't say. 'A love supreme' is sublime, developmental and jazz. Rather, Beethoven has encountered, in this piece, what is sublime about jazz in romantic music. No contradiction.

"Can someone who has heard this music, I mean truly heard it, really be a bad person?"

EVER SINCE I heard this masterclass and Schiff's denouncing the near-universal admiration for Beethoven's spark of #32's small peak in the future, I have REFUSED to listen to any more of Schiff. It's a level of snobbery that ASTOUNDED me and turned me off to his recreations from that moment on. I haven't lost anything of value, Schiff has. ♥

BEETHOVEN IN A WORLD OF HIS OWN We all know that by the time this Sonata was written, Beethoven was pretty much into his own world. He was almost completely deaf and had miserable health problems. Schiff has a right to express his opinion of course and we have a right to listen or to not..or to pay or not. In any case Schiff plays this beautifully so he has a right to his opinion. In a very sad sense Beethoven's suffering was also our reward. sanjosemike

His last sentence sums it all up.

I disagree with you, i was very fortunate to have study with the great Arrau, and he was a fantastic unparalleled teacher, very practical, he used to say, this is WORKSHOP, and would explain from the technical point of view of how to do something, to the sublime, such as a story, or anecdote or some personal opinion of the piece; and as he was a walking encyclopedia about everything, he was a very intellignet and wise man, one always came out from a lesson uplifted and motivated to improve !!!!

Walvirck-- My own 2 cents, FWIW: I'm a jazz pianist who's also revered and worked up this Beethoven, and I completely agree with Schiff on the "boogie-woogie" nature of the third variation. I've always thought that its similarity to jazz is a misleading coincidence, and obscures the true nature of the variation, which is pure frantic godlike ecstasy. And I say this not because I reject jazz in any way! So this might not be evidence of Schiff disrespecting the wonderful art-form of jazz.

He says he doesn't like the boogie-woogie, but look at the way he swings while he plays it.

right or wrong about schiff's distaste for jazz, there are plenty of professional classical musicians who will come home from their concerts (no names will be provided, but they are friends of mine in the new york phil and chicago symphony) who absolutely love jazz as much as classical and use it to assist their technique/musicality in their classical playing(and vice versa.) Some have been on jazz albums. Even if schiff does not like jazz, he's free to choose what styles he likes, like anyone.

We,humans, are streams of inherited conciousness that has been trying to imitate what came before us without knowingly that what we tried to imitate is actually just an another mere imitation that tried to do the same which came before it too. In this sense, human ignorance of historical knowledge could be counted as blessing in disguise, that it helped create variation of music that came before in context of modern interpretation.

" This music has nothing to do with the miserable piano, we just hear the human spirit" I like him! :D

I realised this isn't a recital but a masterclass. I wasn't criticizing the fact THAT he is talking, I was merely pointing out that all he does is anticipating/reiterating the music verbally before/after he plays it. (continued...)

Brendan Kavanagh: But do you know boogie woogie? Beethoven: Ja.

Opus 111 is indeed life affirming. The fact that Schiff doesn't like boogie woogie bothers me not a bit. As humans we all have to tap our feet and keep warm from time to time. A bacon sandwich can be just as pleasing a 3 star Michelin meal.

The problem is it's offensive to say that the sonata sounds like jazz. It's the opposite. One genre of jazz sounds a little like a part of this masterwork. It's not elitist to acknowledge that Beethoven is the greatest human musical genius. He just is and this is one of his cornerstone works. That one genre of jazz sounds somewhat like a passage in the sonata isn't saying much. It isn't even convergent evolution, since there is no similarity of environment or niche.

2nd Variation makes you time travel

Boogie woogie = yes. Play it correctly and you will feel it

That's because you're ears are attuned to the vulgar and you cannot hear the deeper meaning in this music. Mr. Schiff is absolutely correct. I'm sorry to sound harsh but you should open your mind and ears to the more sophisticated and deep world of music that is Beethoven... in fact, this is music on the edge. It's far more groundbreaking and expressive than "boogie".

As others have noticed, it sounds more like ragtime than boogie-woogie, at least in my judgement.

Then explain his use of the word "iambic" to describe the first variation and his comparison of the second variation with "alle Menschen werden Brüder" from the 9th symphony. I've already made my point regarding the word "iambic", and as far as I know, there isn't any point in the 9th symphony where the phrase "alle Menschen werden Brüder" occurs in the rhythm that Andras Schiff has sung it.

Only when occasion calls for it does Schnabel distort the actual pulse. most of the time he alters values which occur between the main pulse. This is also mostly what Schiff does, and you are correct in saying that there are sometimes when it should not be done. However, if you can actually tell me the measure or time in the video when you think schiff violates one of these rules, let me know. I will tell you what I think.

I am surprised that Andras did not mention it,but if you want to hear real boogie woogie go to Andras playing the third;the third movement of the Waldstein Sonata,where one genius.is playing the music of a greater genius.

Those are some cool curtains

Love this Boogie oh yes

He practices what he preaches! And his Fortissimos are NEVER pounded out.

Great Rebel Schiff

Btw, I'm not even sure Mr. Schiff knows what he's talking about when he describes the first variation as "iambic" (apart from pronouncing it wrong - or have I misunderstood him? if so, please correct me), because a iamb is a short syllable followed by a long syllable, i.e. exactly the opposite of the rhythm in the first variation, which would be a trochee (long-short). I guess Schiff wanted to impress the audience by using technical terms. Problem is, he didn't seem to know what they mean.

@MMFmasterclass A true sense of humor and musical erudition ... I think i'll try to buy the CD. That doesn't sound like a boogie-woogie, indeed!

It could very well be the source of boogie woogie, Song Zero. Someone playing classical piano while learning jazz played it, and created boogie woogie out of it. I, myself, feel that Beethoven helped create heavy metal, too. It was a visit from The Doctor that caused no more of part iii to be written. By accident, The Doctor landed near Beethoven. The TARDIS makes noise that can be heard telepathically, and he slipped into the TARDIS. Next stop, relaxing in a jazz club. On the way, The Doctor discovers his stowaway, but they had already landed on Earth and a recharge was required. Beethoven was ordered to stay, but the TARDIS gave him ears for a short time, and he heard boogie woogie & elaborated on it, "This is how it should sound." The Doctor then returns to Beethoven's time and tells him not to write more because it hasn't been invented yet. But that one passage made it to sheet music first, and we have Song Zero. Cheers to Beethoven for slipping that in for us!

Also, I think you're confusing the "pulse" with beats. They are not one in the same. Schiff is actually not distorting the overall pulse much at all, but there are slight distortions in the subdivision of beats in between when the main pulse falls. In fact, since you think you are so knowledgeable about this music.. can you tell me on which beats the pulse falls? this will at least be a start.

@Haeronthegreat I think he often gives his own personal view of the music, which is just what he sees in it, and not necessarily a deeper layer of meaning put there by the composer itself. It is more like imagery that can be useful as guide for a particular form of interpretation.

Ludwig definitely swung in this piece,not so hard to believe;Irish Traditional music swings and did in Beethoven's day,I'm sure,and he may have heard it.Anyway,if he didn't,he was more than capable of introducing that triplet bounce all on his own,with such an unsurpassed musical intelligence.

Very well said

My opinion of Mr Schiff came down a tad bit because of this video

Regarding Beethoven's 9th, I interpret Schiff as speaking about an emotional, stylistic, or even philosophical quality in the music. Regarding the word "iambic," you are entirely correct, but come across as a jerk because of how you make your point. Schiff made a mistake. Oops. Doesn't invalidate his point or make him a shallow/stupid/etc. human being.

Eduardo Poblete de Chile, como Beethoven nos sorprende y nos maravilla con su creación, se adelantó a su época, con su creación de la Arietta, dió un paso revolucionario, sin lugar a dudas es Boogie Boogie, o si se quiere es jazz... Lo

I agree with you that information shouldn't be spoonfed interpration but to that I remeber receiving a lot of information from teachers about Beethoven and some stuff sticks but most don't but the benefit is it started me thinking or ideas and many times i could apply these to other pieces...I think it depends on the maturity of student to decide if he will be a carbon copy of his teacher or an individual because i know for fact that i dont play like my teachers and i wasnt harmed by his advice

to me this music represents nothing less than Creation itself.

Variation 3 [or is it really variation 2, with his first selection being the original theme?; I don't recall the sonata well enough to say] does not swing as Schiff plays it, but it could be made to swing. Would that be a good way to play it or a bad way? I love jazz but "classical" even more, so it's hard to say.

look at those cool drapes!

"Ecstasy yes, boogie woogie, no". Totally agree!

I just love the frenetic ecstasy of 2:33 onwards! Beethoven had the greatest musical imagination of them all, even if I still think Mozart was supreme.

It sounds like what it sounds like, a bit bluesy or boogie woogie.

This is a Masterclass. People are expecting him to talk abou the music. At a normal recital he just plays.

yeah you're absolutely right. I mean you should live and get the spirit yourself to play it nicely. it's not a simple work that anybody can get...

(...continued) That the phrase "alle Menschen werden Brüder" NEVER occurs in the 9th symphony in the particular rhythm that Andras Schiff has sung it in is an indisputable fact, making Schiff's comparison plainly senseless, because it is simply NOT like "alle Menschen werden Brüder" in the 9th symphony (again, correct me if I'm wrong). And the meaning of the word "iambic" isn't a matter of opinion either. And it's precisely these things that I'm criticizing, (continued...)

@beet31425 hmm obviously beethoven did not have some great vission of the future and wrote what sounds like a foreshadow of jazz. however, wasn't jazz just a natural expression that americans had back before it was notated. Didn't jazz come from the soul? i mean sure the swung eights and rythem is a distict notifier of jazz, but what beethoven wrote was wat he felt and like shiff says, "we jsut hear the human spirit" buut jsut my opinion.

by the way, Mozart Clarinet Quintet 1st movement really sounds like jazz, in my opinion.

What a lovely comment. Quite agree with you and suggest that you get the DVD. Almost 3 hours of this remarkable and inspiring analysis of all three of the late sonatas.

Well...what's wrong with boogie?

I think the third variation there needed to have been played with a bit more "boogie-woogie"! (I am joking - I instantly thought of rag-time/boogie-woogie the first time I heard this variation in piano sonata no. 32, but it is mistaken to impose a later musical category onto Beethoven, out of its own time.)

Does Schiff listen to Miles Davis? Just a thought. What about Sonny Boy Williamson. Considering stating the spirituality of the human spirit.

Of course it's tempting to think of the 'jazz-like' bit as some kind of ingenius visionary premonition on Beethoven's part. I have no problem with that but I do think it's going a little overboard. But still, what's wrong with boogie-woogie?

the rhythm in the passage bears only a small resemblance to boogie. I must stress that Beethoven never wrote a boogie woogie, though, although scores of under-educated music lovers will think he did. In a boogie, the rhythm is different, and much more metronomic (perfectly steady pulse). The reason why Schiff does not play like that is because the music demands a more careful treatment of the beats and in fact is much more sophisticated, and further-reaching in its vision, than a boogie.

for me the third variation is more frenzy than ectasy but I think I am in a minority (and perhaps quite a small one!)

Ragtime and Boogie-Woogie!! Yes, indeed!

A good musician should be open to all kinds of music. I bet he never heard or played a boogiewoogie in his whole life.

Probing analysis by a legendary virtuoso and educator

Both Beethoven and Boogie can be played well or badly, depending on the technique and self-awareness of personal expression. Improvising beyond cliché licks to produce a melodious solo that is both memorable and of perfect proportion - it's a skill that was valued even in Bach's day. Imagine if I never liked Beethoven because Schiff's interpretation didn't possess the emotion I expected...

For those who heard boogie-woogie in Liszt in my previous post, here is Schiff on boogie-woogie.

And now, come to think of it, what does the 2nd variation have in common with "alle Menschen werden Brüder" from the 9th symphony??? I'm now seriously wondering if he has any idea of what he's talking about.

I couldn't live with those curtains.

(...continued) I've heard the audio with the Moonlight sonata and he says some interesting things there, but not here. I don't need Mr. Schiff to tell me how music should affect me or how the contrast between the sections in the 4th variation is like darkness and light. If I want to know how the music sounds, I listen to it itself, rather that to Mr. Schiff talking about it.

Oh, gawd, Merdith Wilson stole it for musical Molly Brown, put words "i'll never stop loving you" to the tune. Look it up scholastic if you have doubt.

There is "boogie-Woogie" and also ragtime! Do not be surpised Mr. Schiff! All came from dances and popular rhythms: 2/4 or 4/4. They are very late dances but, i repeat, there are some "archetypal", universal, forms for rhythm. About "spiritual" feelings: Do not mistificate mr. Schiff. Pierluigi da Palestrina in his well known sacred music put popular dances as "gagliarde"...Buxthehude made the same the same with "Gigas" and many others dances...

@ Walvirck On one side you´re right. BUT meeting jazz musicians you will find similar ignorance against classical musicians. And in the end - to be very honest - of course there is a big difference in content between classical and jazz music.

Schiff would do well to listen to boogie woogie and jazz since he seems to have difficulty playing with a good sense of time. I can’t imagine Beethoven would write such a rhythmic piece but intend for it to be played with such fluctuation of tempo.

“Ecstasy”, “Spiritual” …. sounds like boogie woogie to me.

Good! The foundation of the boogie-woogie is in the bottle of water under the piano. Considering music is not words, the rest is much noise about nothing.

Nyílt levél Schiff András művész úrnak. Művész Úr! A The Washington Post-ban megjelent olvasói levelében súlyos kijelentéseket tesz Magyarországról, "a toleranciaszint szélsőségesen alacsony. Rasszizmus, a romák hátrányos megkülönböztetése, antiszemitizmus és reakciós nacionalizmus" kísért. Nem tudom, hogy Ön milyen tapasztalatokkal rendelkezik a mai magyar

(...continued) so I'm merely reflecting on the things he says and pointing out that they don't make sense to me. And that people give me the thumbs down, even on the comments that contain purely objective reasoning, is a sign that they themselves don't understand these things but are too stupid to say anything, because, surely, what the great Schiff says must be correct, and to question it can only be foolishness to the point of arrogance? Or why else can no one explain to me where I am wrong?

That's not pre boogie woogie. That's proto RAGTIME!!!

Lo and behold, everybody seems to give me the Thumbs Down, but no one can correct me objectively in my equally objective arguments and explain to me where I am wrong... So much for "criticize without giving the subjects some deeper thoughts"...

"that doesn't mean that everyone has to blindly believe what he says without reflecting on it." : I agree completely. "What you are talking about are not opinions, but facts." : Nope. I'm saying that if a particular variation reminds Andras Schiff of Beethoven's 9th, then, given his status (and role. He's teaching a Master Class), he has every right to make that connection without backing it up, and it may serve as insight to others, or it may not.

Notwithstanding Schiff doesn't like Boogie Woogie, the third movement is really like a Boogie Woogie!

it is too

Unfortunately this is just the pianistic tradition getting Beethoven's tempo markings wrong. The entire movement should have the same pulse (same duration for each beat). The pianistic tradition plays the previous variation too fast and this one far too fast. It should actually be a slow, lamenting aria in a dotted pattern, not a boogie-woogie.

Regime Jazz yes...... Boogie Woogie no.

I like boogie-woogie a lot, but I agree with his statement. I think that variation has a very distinctive joyful character within Beethoven's expressivity, you just shouldn't add a jazzy feel to it, it's so far from a correct interpretation.

Kind of confused by that statement...music teaching and playing music go hand in hand...when we perform we teach the audience about what the composer had in mind, how we feel about the music, why not put how we feel about it to words? Creating an interpretation is an important part of the music making process. Afterall its up to the performer to used it or create his own interpretation or use the teachers. I don't see how his playing with suffer from listening to someone who has so much knowleg

Sravinsky was responsible for the boogie woogie term

I'm so glad he did something with his hair...

Maybe you can enlighten me on exactly how Mr. Schiff's rhythm is atrocious, because to me, he seems to have an extraordinary sense of control over the pulse. If you are merely using a metronome to follow the rhythm and think it's bad because he doesn't line up perfectly... then you know nothing about rhythm! A big part of music is understanding how to control how the listener perceives the pulse, which often involves careful manipulation of the "in-between" beats.