Scraping For Flatness, a Denis Foster Machinist Straight Edge, Part 3

  Рет қаралды 733

Kevin Toppenberg

Kevin Toppenberg

26 күн бұрын

In this video we use a surface plate to scrape the machinist straight edge to precision flatness. It starts off over 25 thousandths (over 0.6 mm) off, so how to get this done? Come check it out!

Пікірлер: 23
@christinepryor5893
@christinepryor5893 20 күн бұрын
Those old photos of your family are great! I love stuff like that. Boy for someone with no patience, you sure have patience when it comes to scraping and sanding😂 The only way I can equate it for my world is preparing fresh herbs when I’m cooking- you def have to commit bc it’s worth it! You’d be good at breaking down a bushel of fresh thyme. 😄
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 20 күн бұрын
Ha! Only if working on said bushel of thyme takes 3 months, starting with snow on the ground. Yeah, the old family stuff is pretty cool. Also, one of the family legends is that when immigrating, they were supposed to travel on the Titanic. Not on the voyage that ended in tragedy, but a planned subsequent one. After the Titanic sank, they traveled instead on the sister ship Olympic. Thanks for watching. :-)
@gordonbarr6263
@gordonbarr6263 24 күн бұрын
My 2 cents are it would be nice if you added a grinder and old drill press to your inventory to restore . I am a big fan of watching restorations.you make good videos and I enjoy watching.
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 24 күн бұрын
I would love to have a surface grinder. I'll need to tell my wife that I just have to get one, "for the channel." Ha! I have an old drill press that belonged to my wife's grandfather. He was a man of many talents, one of which was helping start up the Little Debbie's (snack cakes) factory by helping build their machines etc. The problem with the drill press is that it doesn't have a crank for raising and lowering the table. So I don't really like it. But it would be easy enough to clean up, paint, and get looking nice. I'll have to think about this. Thanks for the feedback!
@MyLilMule
@MyLilMule 24 күн бұрын
Hi Kevin. Great story on your ancestry. And your Mom looks great (Happy Mother's day to her!). My Dad just turned 90. The straight edge looks great. I figure you were going to have to do a lot of work on it because of that droop in the table. Your method might be a bit unorthodox, but if it works, it works!
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 24 күн бұрын
I believe Steve Watkins quoted Richard King as saying if there was more than 5 'thou to remove, to just send it off to be ground. So starting > 25 'thou called for drastic measures if I was going to do it in my little shop. Also, I think my power scraper must not dig in as well as a real Biax one, because it only seems to take off a fraction of a 'thou each pass. So that is what led to the use of a belt sander -- which is terrifying. Anyway, it is great to hear that your father has reached 90 yrs! Those are the kind of genes you want to inherit. Thanks so much for your feedback. :-)
@zekestrom
@zekestrom 22 күн бұрын
I decided to try out the idea of using a spring-loaded center punch to make divots of similar depths so that one might use them as a guide for heavier metal removal using an angle grinder or belt sander as Kevin showed in his video. Interestingly using the punch with its sharp point not dulled at all produced remarkably uniform divots .016" deep. I wish I could post pics here. But suffice it to say I found a random piece of 1018 steel 3/8" thick and milled off the scale using a sharp 1/2" end mill and fairly slow feed rate to produce a surface that felt smooth. Then I made about 30 divots in that surface using the generic spring punch. Then I returned the piece to the mill and carefully milled off the punched area watching to see how uniformly the divots milled out Amazingly they all seemed to be within .001 of each other. I do think that could be a useful method to guide heavier stock removal. And by dulling the tip, less deep but uniform divots could be made. FWIW Denis
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 21 күн бұрын
It would be an interesting project to make a spring punch with adjustable spring compression such that one could dial in the desired depth. But I would think one would need a chart of the Rockwell hardness of the metal to factor in. After all, isn't this how harness testers work? The machine has known point harness, and known force, and then calculates metal softness based on divot depth? So if we have ([hardness] with [deformation force] ) ==> [divot depth], then to achieve desired depth, one has vary either the hardness or the deformation force. Thanks for working on this and posting. Best wishes, KT
@zekestrom
@zekestrom 20 күн бұрын
@@KevinToppenberg The constant point/varying spring compression would be an elegant solution. But it would take me a week to take the punch apart, "engineer" a practical variable compression mechanism and then fabricate it. Most likely at that point I'd find it worked pretty well but needed improvements. Now I'd be redesigning and refabricating while another week went by. And there might well even be another circuit of this prior to getting a workable and reliable punch. I would take the quick and dirty approach and just sharpen or dull the point a bit on a bench stone or grinder and then test it on a scrap. Once it was making about the right hole depth, I'd start poking dents.
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 20 күн бұрын
@@zekestrom Ha! And this highlights exactly why everything takes me 10x longer than it should. I always seem to do things the hard way. :-)
@zekestrom
@zekestrom 24 күн бұрын
Kevin, you have been amazingly persistent. Good for you! It occurs to me that you might be able to save some time if you had caused your flatness plane to gradually rotate so that the end already in pretty good contact could have been allowed to remain more or less as it was and concentrated on the end in poor contact get the most metal removed there with the middle getting a middling amount of metal removed. As it was, you seemed to have accepted the general flatness plane that first appeared and just slowly raised that plane away from the sole and toward the bow of the SE. I am not sure what I am saying makes sense. But it would be like having the plane of flatness connected by a hinge to the "good" end and then settling and hinging downward with successive passes toward the poor contact end. That might allow about 50% less total volume of metal removal and consequently would have been faster. I know you wanted to use scraper chatter marks as a guide to prevent going too far in any given area. So, I guess you would remove those marks nearly fully on the "bad" end, about half way in the middle and very little if at all on the "good" end. Since early on you were removing 20 thou in some areas I wonder if you could have made divots of uniform depth to guide abrasive removal of metal in quantity. What I am thinking about here would be using one of those spring-loaded center punches to make many divots of more or less uniform depth and then grind down to them. Mind you, I have never done that. By selectively rounding the punch end I think you could likely get it to make a dent pretty predictably to say, .005 or .010 depth. That could allow safe use of your belt sander (with a zirconia belt) to remove more metal in a single pass. It might also make too much local removal more likely. Random thoughts while trying to imagine options. Denis
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 24 күн бұрын
Thanks for the thought you put into this issue. I do understand what you are saying about picking one end to be the "good end" and working towards the bad end. Right off the bat, I don't understand how that would result in less overall metal being removed. But I may just need to think about this some more. You idea about using a spring-loaded center punch is very interesting. My concern would be to calibrate it, i.e. how to know how deep the divot was. In the end, if there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that I should have machined it with the mill, on it's *side*, as you pointed out. That way, as the table drooped, it would not have affected the cutting plane. Thanks so much for watching. I hope you like the next video when I get it all completed. :-)
@zekestrom
@zekestrom 24 күн бұрын
​@@KevinToppenberg Concerning the question of reducing the amount of metal removed by allowing the plane to hinge on one end: The volume of metal removed is more or less represented by a rectangular box 36" long, 3" wide, and .020 high in your case. In that case, plane simply slowly descends equally on all corners until the surface all prints, about 2 cubic inches of iron has to be converted to powder. It's easier to imagine the volume difference if you exaggerate the box, though, and make it 2 inches high rather than .020.". Now look from the side and draw a diagonal line from the top good end corner to the lower corner of the bad end. Imagine you remove metal down to the diagonal rather than removing the entire box of metal. Scraping to the diagonal would require half the metal removal compared to scraping away the entire box. Still you need to remove a lot of metal considering you are powdering it either by abrading it or scraping it. To calibrate the spring punch I think I would start by rounding the tip to look like a ball-point pen tip. Then, using a piece of 1/2x2x3" scrap soft steel (it is close to the hardness of soft cast iron) I would mill off the surface and make a bunch of divots. Then I'd mill off the surface in small increments to see if this system did in fact make more or less uniform dents and to see about how deep they might be. The tip profile could be adjusted to get about the depth desired. One caution would be to be sure to back up the steel by placing it on a heavy steel or cast surface as you want to simulate the mass of the casting and not just a small piece of steel floating in space. I am half-tempted to try that out in my shop just to see if the idea is at all practical. I kinda think it would work. Anyway, I mam looking forward to the next video. Denis
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 24 күн бұрын
I see what you mean about the best plane to aim for. And regarding calibrating the spring punch, that is a pretty good idea. Thanks for the helpful pointers!
@camillosteuss
@camillosteuss 24 күн бұрын
Shit man... I woulda tried using the Bridgeport to deal with that... A nice large flycutter, slow feed, even if it didn`t do perfectly, it would have to beat the 24thou starting point... Also, consider using narrower carbide for scraping... The narrower the carbide, the deeper it digs in, and the more damage it can do, but it can be used to great extent to cut down on the time spent, then you take a wide carbide and just level out the narrow furrows made by the smaller scraper... speaking of the plate, oh yeah, i see what you meant some time ago... That is quite some pitting, tho, i suppose that it could be taken out with enough effort, or at least reduced and corrected a bit... Tho, that would require some large diamond laps(a good project idea... some old weights, some diamond dust, a chrome roller, you know the drill)... Kind regards and all the best! Steuss
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 21 күн бұрын
I thought you had watched my earlier videos. I used my mill to my best ability, and still was left with that 24 thou'. Either I'm a crappy machinist, or my mill is crappy, or both! Ha! I didn't show it onscreen, but I did try a carbide with a more narrow radius. It didn't seem to do much better. I have been thinking also that I may need to pay attention to the bevel angle on the end of the carbide and see if that is correct. Thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the cringe. :-)
@camillosteuss
@camillosteuss 21 күн бұрын
@@KevinToppenberg Truth be told, i might have forgotten the previously seen videos... I`ll check out if i missed out on something, but at any rate, i`ve been a bit swamped with crap and i`m sleeping quite poorly in the last few weeks, so i don`t operate at 100%... I`m fine, just a load of stuff on a metaphorical bar feeder, running me like an automatic lathe, except for the fact that an auto lathe has 0 issues with such regimen, where we organics do... Best regards!
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 20 күн бұрын
@@camillosteuss Take care of yourself. You are the only one you've got! When I don't sleep well, everything goes sideways. Best wishes. 🙂
@camillosteuss
@camillosteuss 20 күн бұрын
@@KevinToppenberg Thanks for the kind words! I`m usually ok with less sleeping, at least in regards to performance, but i don`t remember stuff that i did with accuracy and sense of sequential progression for some time... Tho, i always had a shit short term memory... Once a few months pass, i start recalling everything, but recently observed or learned stuff is just put into the sorting machine and until it gets sorted, it`s lost... Oh well...
@MatthewRulla
@MatthewRulla 23 күн бұрын
You're not scraping deep enough with your home built power scraper and your carbide should have a much larger radius for this roughing process. In roughing, you should be able to pull up a curl. You are making "chicken scratches", as Richard King would say. Measure the depth of each scrape. Each scrape should be at least 2 thenth's deep. Map out your hollow spots with a sharpie marker, then make enough passes to "scrape down" to that level, then take it over to the surface plate. You are wasting too much time and effort. Denis's castings are pretty nice. I've scraped a few.
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 21 күн бұрын
Yeah, I'm nowhere close to making a curl. You said "larger radius." But did you mean larger curvature? I.e. smaller radius? I would live to try out a real Biax to see what it is about my machine that is not working well. I have tried putting a different piece of carbide in there, with about half the radius of what I showed in the video. And it didn't seem to make much difference. I wish I could attend one of Richard King's classes and really get some proper education on scraping. But I haven't been willing to commit to the expense of time and money to do it. And thus I continue to stumble around in the dark. Ha! Thanks for the feedback.
@MatthewRulla
@MatthewRulla 21 күн бұрын
@@KevinToppenberg Roughing needs a larger radius (bigger circle, almost straight) and you need about negative 5 degree grind on the edge. This will create a wider scrape. The tight radius is for pin-point scraping.
@KevinToppenberg
@KevinToppenberg 20 күн бұрын
@@MatthewRulla OK. It makes sense that larger circle would help remove more material at a time. But since I am having trouble getting the edge to "dig in," I thought you were trying to encourage me to concentrate the force. But I see what you mean about covering a larger area. Regarding the 5 degree edge, I think I have a much larger angle than that, and thus it might be part of my problem. I'm going to experiment with getting to 5 degrees for next time. Thanks for the info.
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