I don't try to persuade people anymore. I've learned that trying to win an argument with a smart person is difficult, but trying to win an argument with a lunatic is impossible.

I feel like I have to stop watching your content. Every time I watch, I have a new book to read and that list is growing rapidly. Thank you for the honest and open conversation. I greatly appreciate the dialogue.

My church (in Montrose, Pennsylvania) split over politics... It was 1839 and 46 members left because they felt the church had become too politically involved in the issue of slavery. Both sides thought slavery was wrong but the split objected to the pastor chairing the abolitionist society and one of the elders hiding runaway slaves in his home - and both men starting an anti-slavery newspaper. I wonder, will people 150 years from now be proud of how little we were involved in the politically charged issues of the day, or would they be ashamed that we didn't take a stronger stand?

Great discussion! A good mix of openness to fair criticism while also pointing out the problems with the criticism.

Thanks for this conversation Sean. Would love to see an interview between you and Con Campbell.

Thank you so much for this conversation! As an evangelical Christian, I listened with open ears and heart to hear where I am wrong and possibly need to think about things differently. We are all just people trying to figure it out and I get frustrated sometimes with those that just wanna point out all the things we’re doing wrong, but it is a good idea to Get constructive criticism at times and find out what you’re doing right and what you need to fix.

Thank you Sean and Dr. Scott Rae for this discussion! Great listen. Would you and Dr. Rae consider doing a 2 year retrospective on your April 2021 COVID 19 program? I think interesting ethical and scientific things have emerged regarding medical therapies at that time that would be good to address from a biblical basis now. Sort of like when Joshua and old testament spies were deceived by local tribe leaders to make peace even though they lived around the corner. Thanks for considering!

The "That's Fair" podcast. ;) Love the podcast Sean. Keep up the good work!

Thank you for this honest conversation.

Society sees making a moral assessment is equivalent to making a judgment I just needed to pin that when I heard it; very good point by Scott!

Sometimes your word is redefined under your feet. "Evangelical" used to mean pertaining to the gospel, gospel-related, etc. Now it means whatever the left politicos (?) and mainstream media want the world to hate..And politicos on the right want us to equate "evangelical" with "conservative"-KZfaq ministrIes commonly, pointedly use the words "Christian" and "conservative", as adjectives or nouns, interchangeably, and they won't tolerate correction about it, either. To some Christians it seems like no big deal, but to me, I can't help but see it as all too likely to be soft apostasy. If you think that salvation can come as easily by politics as by faith in Jesus to save us, how is this not apostasy? If gospel or no gospel doesn't matter, as long as moral or political good is done, how is that not apostasy?.

The first I remember the political shift was back in 1979-1980 when Jerry Falwell started the Moral Majoity. From that point forward, I have seen a continuous increase of the politicization of the Christian faith. Ever since it has moved the political right further and further right and evangelicals have been incredibly influential in that shift.

It’s “cool” to critique evangelical Christians at the moment and their involvement in politics. I’d love to hear how this guy thinks we should engage politics in the “right” way. The whole point of politics is to make laws and policy to shape society. It seems that people like this author just want to do it with certain issues and not others

"Most churches are too big to have any kind of meaningful mentoring." ~40:24 Perhaps this is the heart of the critique of Campbell being discussed? After all, as I look at scripture, including but not limited to Matthew 28:19-20, the church was charged with making disciples, not converts. A fair question may be "have we, the church, neglected our messianic charge in order to accumulate statistics that present a favorable image?" If we have gathered groups too large to meaningfully mentor those who are "coming to faith in Christ," are we actually making disciples? Simple food for thought. Thank you for your video and review of the book by Campbell.

To prevent abortions: Make maternal care free. Make under 18 healthcare free. Make abortions after 15-weeks illegal, but legal if there’s a threat to mom’s care. Pay a few thousand dollars if mom carries the pregnancy to the end and hands him/her for adoption. Etc. Just a start.

It’s the American business model brand that’s messed up the rest of the world. Like pastor Washer said, we don’t need to send out anymore missionaries with the American gospel 😂

14:28 Have we moved To The Right, or has the culture moved to The Left?

To call Evangelicalism "wayward" is an understatement. They are so easily blown about by every wind of doctrine chasing whatever new trendy thing that amuses them.

I have found Russell Moore's similar distinction between a theological evangelical and "exit poll" evangelical to be quite helpful. He has given me a new term for myself. "dissenting evangelical'

“The early church did not engage in any form of political activism…” Exactly the point! Our faith is built upon the foundation laid by the prophets and the apostles. That foundation does not provide a blueprint for navigating a particularly treacherous political landscape that is laden with individuals that will say anything in order to get your vote. Faustian bargains (deals with the Devil) are the best deals you can possibly hope for in this environment. The excuse that the early church didn’t live in a democracy is not a particularly strong case. Most evangelicals have prioritized political action over evangelization. I have seen this first hand. In fact most have taken the “by any means necessary” position. Whatever it takes to get political power - even if it means using carnal or sinful means to get there. That is what’s seriously troubling. We are trying to achieve the fruit of a mostly Christian society not by changing hearts but by political gamesmanship.

I used to think using all the tools and multi media to reach people in church was fine. I did it for a long time. But competing for people’s attention is not the job of the church. It’s to nurture, build up in the faith, and teach believers. Many churches could begin by just simply teaching how to read and interpret scripture. The word of God is the first most important aspect. The rest follows. Remember that Jesus could have put on amazing performances using miracles and his power but he was very reluctant to do miracles as to not get in the way of his ministry. He did them out of love and pity but not to compete with people’s attention. And in doing so they made his ministry more difficult.

I’m a bit off put but the small and unexplained mentions of CRT topics… And I also would largely disagree that the church has gone more right in recent years. It’s indisputable that both society, political parties, and the church at large in America, have all gone much more left. So he seems to be thinking of 1 particular group when he says that, and it’s a bit passive aggressive towards whatever group he is obviously disagreeing with, but not brazen enough to just say it. The repeated notes in the video that seems to be speaking against Theonomy and CN, are also concerning. I don’t know why any Christian would prefer a pagan sinful government and leaders, when given the choice to work towards a God honoring system instead. And it seems negligent to preach to the people that things like Theonomy and CN are somehow bad and to be avoided. In my experience folks who say such things usually just don’t know much about what it’s logistics actually look like. Because if they did… well there’s nothing for any Christian, in any denom, to disagree with.

I'm an Australian Christian. I was brought up Presbyterian, but feel comfortable in any church that preaches the core doctrines of the Christian faith. What seems to be preached in some evangelical churches in the USA, especially the more MAGA/Q-anon churches, is disturbing.

You should interview Jordan Peterson. I really believe he could learn a lot from you. In turn it would help a lot more people.

Has Campbell been invited to discuss his book and views? It would be great to have him at the table with the two of you.

So who am I in relation to Dr.Scott? I was his student and employee for twenty years.

Nailed topic fairly and biblicaly

Remember a pastor preaches on Sunday but our lives preach all week long. Be His hands and feet then when they ask you about the hope that is within you tell them.

I'm not commenting on the present subject, I want to ask about your father. I read a book that he wrote titled " More than a Carpenter ". Just so that you know, I heard this same message from Dr. Gene Scott before the release of your father's book. Did your father pleigeriz his teaching?

In a secular nation (separation of church and state), do I as a Christian have a right to force someone to became a parent against their will, if I see it wrong and they don’t?

What is the link between the Left and evangelicalism that was referred to?

Friends, what do we do with Acts 2:38 or 1Pe 3:21 or Rm 6:3-4 ? Help me, won't you please?

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." doesn't mean don't make moral judgements on people. It's a reminder to not do so hypocritically - hold yourself to the same standard you hold others.

Judge me oh God bc your judmements are ALWAYS true! I love your discipline to correct my path. People who generalize judgmentalism as bad without clarifying the Word rightly judges is controlled by another ideology than the Word. They will judge as the culture in the world does

I’m an evangelical been one for decades. My problem theses days is it’s all about the Holy spiritual and gifts . The Holy Spirit is suppose to point to Jesus not the other way around. I’m about sick of all the false prophets that act like psychics etc. I’m about ready to finally move away from the Charismatic stuff.

The title of the book is an immediate turn-off. If his heart was to appeal to Evangelicals rather than to those already disaffected, that was a bad idea.

Sometimes a group gets defined by outsiders based on their perception of the group´s members that shout the loudest, we must work to let people know that our principles are higher, but we don´t consider ourselves to be better than anybody else, or at least we are striving not to.

As a non-Christian, I have to say I appreciate this discussion. If there was more well thought out public discourse like this, we'd realize that we're not all that different. I'm not an atheist, but I'm an agnostic. I'm also a leftist politically (although not an absolutist), which I see as being closer to how Jesus would be if he were alive today. There are a ton of parallels between Christian beliefs and my own. I really wish that all religion could separate itself from politics, so we can focus on getting along with each other.

And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment. That ye may approve things that are excellent. That ye may be sincere and without offense til the day of Christ!

Look at recent history. 1900 to 2000. What has been the impact of the American Evangelical movement? What impact has it had on religion and Christianity? Has it born the fruit of a servant of God?

I didn’t finish listening, but was there any talk about Evangelicals devoted to Trump, their golden calf! Where is their discernment? Franklin Graham? Eric Metaxas? Discernment, hello!

I was raised in an evangelical Protestant, for which I am still grateful. When I eventually recognized the typical ingredients of current-day evangelicalism are IDOLATRIES, I had to reconsider where to place my fellowship. I'm now an Anabaptist--and rejoicing.

What do they mean by "evangelicals"? I thought it was just about telling others about the gospel? A willingness to spread the good news of Jesus taking our punishment on the cross? I love to do that 😊❤

Our Job as Evangelicals is not to worry about the results but to preach the word.

Regarding "Social Action," the author may refer to the tendency over the years, to move law-making from the Institutions and halls of justice, to the streets. In other words, law becomes the product of whomever can raise the largest demonstration, or shout the loudest, rather than the orderly processes provided for in the Constitution. This is a far cry from "church activity" focused on social issues and righting wrongs in intelligent, benevolent ways.

Good talk. I agree that large parts of the critique are irrelevant, not only at the ground level but even in Christian media. I'm not evangelical/nondenom, but most of the ones I know personally and hear from in the media have taken the criticisms of the first generation (judgmental/insular/obsessed with politics/favorite vs. unforgivable sins) to heart, in my opinion maybe a little too much. Like you gentlemen, they really are trying to reach people for Jesus, according to their understanding of His commission. Some have kooky niche beliefs or political animosity; who doesn't in 2023?

Amen to Sean at 24:24

Community service belongs in and from the church not the government. We as imagers of Christ have to stand strong for the sanctity of life, marriage and absolute moral authority of Jesus.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d] How does this 1corinthians 5 essentially say outside the church leave them alone?

No. you DON'T have to entertain the seekers. I attend a church of about 6,000 , one of the most loved and growing churches in my city. We have a beautiful, energetic choir with an amazing director of music. We have a worship team who actually worship while they're leading us. We don't have a light show, lasers, dance worship and people in ripped jeans onstage. We sing mostly classic songs mixed with some contemporary. The pastor usually preaches about 45 minutes and no one wants to leave. So since it's growing and ministering to every member of the family, why do we need to entertain again?

I think it is supporting Mr. T which is baffling for me too, having watched the channel for a while and having agreed with many positions.

I discovered your fathers pliegeris writings own my own.

The American evangelical intelligentsia, in which the author spent many years, has long been fond of straining Republican gnats and swallowing Democrat camels.

I'll try to keep my comment brief.

After a challenging, discussion , I like to leave people with other theologically sound materials they can look into - if they care - such as Sean, or Eric Metaxas, John Lennox, Nichole Nordeman, Keith Green, etc.

I would have said nothing if I heard anyone use Dr. Scott as a reference.

Not being American and now living in Australia I’m listening to what you relate about the author’s views and wonder what he’s going to find in the evangelical scene here is unacceptable. Its as if the author is deconstructing himself.

Have you been watching the Hillsong documentaries?!!

Because I don't worship the environment as a god, that makes me bad? I think that makes me Christian. We're called to be good stewards of the environment and to reign over it. We are not called to worship it.

I can't tell you how many people I've met who have decided not to go to church anymore or wear their cross necklace because they are recoiled by Christian nationalism, dangerous right wing Christian conspiracy ideas, and otherization. I have read several books on this and will probably read this one next. We need to be more focused on Jesus and loving each other. We will always disagree and need to be respectful as we dialogue. Thank you for the discussion.

Of course, he doesn't call out the progressivism influencing the Evangelical movement.

Scott states that "racist laws are baked into the system today" - without offering ANY evidence or examples. While he does try to soften this assertion by saying that it's not to the degree it was in the past, but he confidently declares that this is still the case today. If there are such laws today, then we as Christians must do what we can to change those laws, so please provide concrete examples. Disproportionate impact of a law on an ethnic does not indicate racism if the law targets behavior and applies equally to all. For example, if a specific ethnic group gets more traffic tickets - that is not necessarily an indication that the law has "racism baked in".

Hope this makes sense. My first church was Pentecostal. Never was Pentecostal. Now I'm a member of an Evangelical church. I've never understood what that is. Only thing I do know for sure is: I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Galatians 2:20

The only book that your dad wrote that I recommend is " Daniel in the critics den ". Even though his chronology is completely wrong.

Yes.

Sorry the Australian church does not stand up for the unborn. Tough hearing judgmental critiques from an aussie.

I find that these people who deconstruct are the most hypocritical while claiming Christians are hypocritical. We all need to examine ourselves before we look at others.

This became real fast

Well, there is the issue of judging others, which I personally believe is strongly discouraged in The Bible (James 4:11-12, John 8:7, Matthew 7:1-5, Romans 3:23, Romans14:10), but then there is the far more serious issue of going beyond just judging and actively working to have one's personal religious beliefs reflected in the laws of the land... for the purpose of "punishing" your enemies (anyone you disapprove of, or who dares to disagree with you), and to be able to limit or even take away the basic Human rights of those you hate (and yes, the word is HATE). This is unchristian in the extreme, and in direct opposition to The Greatest Commandment. THIS evangelicals have been VERY guilty of.

Maybe we need to redefine "Political" because I don't think it means the same thing anymore. Everything is very moral. This isn't just big government/small government anymore. We are post-political, if anything the "political" arguments sound extremely religious.

It is an interesting beginnings of a conversation that gets you nowhere. I think the author is wrong about almost everything. But who is having a serious conversation about the issues?

The best book/booklet on what's considered an evangelical is Martyn Lloyd-Jones book titled "What Is An Evangelical? But can we call one an evangelical if it's not theological?

Yes..

"We are perusing other things such as cultural dominance political power materialism...." Exactly what the church is doing wrong & is the main reason the church is so ineffectual. It's disobediently following a worldly agenda of power & wealth. The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. What has any of that to do with Christ? Jesus never taught us to do any such things as these, but to love the sinner, and do good to everyone caring for the needy, preach the good news & making disciples.

If Christians think that they should be establishing a highly theocratic state in the Americas, analogous to the ancient state of Israel, why didn't Lord Jesus establish such a state during his life in Judea? Lord Jesus differed with Judas on that issue.

If you both have been raised in a different environment then the discussion would not have been of christian faith. An almighty God would not allow this. Once a person decided to do and believe in something, its almost impossible to revert back however much the signs are there to negate.

We are presently citizens of two kingdoms so of course we should be politically involved. The train goes off the track, however, when we put our ultimate hope in the political system.

Sean don't take this wrong but can you use talking points?

"Evangelical movement has moved right politically" - Or is it that the political Left in the US has moved away from the center so radically that Evangelicals that were previously considered centrist or left leaning have found themselves no longer agreeing with the Left's politics?

Dr. William Eugene Scott, Stanford University PHD, Graduate.

Not an evangelical, but a Christian, and I think the assertion of "both side-ism" on this topic is not supportable. We have never seen anything like the merging of the Republican politics and Evangelical Christians in the US. There aren't nearly enough evangelicals on the Left to effect the same level of sick symbiosis. Especially with MAGA, the evangelical Right, I believe, has unknowingly but nearly completely abandoned Jesus. By their fruit... remember? I don't say this polemically. I say it sadly. The threat from the post modern Woke mob is very real. And real, loving, courageous, humble Jesus followers have never been needed more.

The problem with being involved in the political realm is that Christians are being used for a whole host of political positions that, in my estimation, are not biblical. With blind votes for anti-abortion candidates, at times, not always, that vote is for someone who uses that reliable evangelical vote to underpin an agenda not consistent with biblical values.

I guess people forgot the story of Jesus going to the temple and seeing what was rowing. The greed look into it it's in the Bible the hole book.

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world..." but He instructed us to pray "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven".

The doctrine of the Trinity is believed by Christians to be biblical, and those who believe it cite Matthew 28:18-20, “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” These verses are the modern-day rendition identifying interpolation, and so the question must be asked, “Did Christ in fact speak every word found in these verses?” The first Church Historian Eusebius (quotes Matthew 28:19 as it appeared in the early 4th century, Christ said, “Go and make disciples of all nations in My name” (Matthew 28:19, as it was originally quoted, Eusebius, The History of the Church, p. 68, Penguin Classics, 1965). Note, He never said, “...baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Which commandment did the disciples hear? It appears the latter quoted by Eusebius from an original manuscript of NT, for there is no instance of the disciples ever baptizing anyone “In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” according to the New Testament! On baptisms specifically in the name of {YAHSHUA}, Martin Luther notes, “The apostles certainly used this formula in baptizing in the name of Christ only, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles,’ citing Acts 2:38; 10:48; and 19:5” (Erik H. Herrmann, Paul W. Robinson, The Annotated Luther, Volume 3: Church and Sacraments. Fortress Press. p. 66, 2016). In a documented sermon, Martin Luther made this astonishing statement, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). The disciples of Christ, in the first two or more centuries, did not know of any doctrine of the Trinity. Historically, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the trinity-at any rate from him” (H. G. Wells, The Outline of History, Vol. 2, p. 499, 1920). The so-called Great Commission, as written is an interpolation: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19, the words in italics were added centuries later). The formula is mentioned in the Didache (7:1-3), and it is mostly accepted as authentic due to its supporting manuscript evidence (Everett Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church, 2013, pp.134-5). Nevertheless, some scholars have held the view that the passage in the Didache is an interpolation as it is absent from the first few centuries of early Christian quotations, in which case it is believed it would be part of an apostolic or early Christian oral tradition from which both the received texts of Matthew and the Didache emerged, however, the conclusion is the church only baptized in the name of Christ. The view of the passage as an interpolation was in recent times maintained, and this particular line of argument by Trinitarians is eisegesis, meaning the process of interpreting a text in such a way as to introduce one's presuppositions, agendas, or biases, that led to the Trinitarian formula, and interpolated verses added to the New Testament. Catholics and Protestants would agree with Protestant Theologian James White, who writes, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine…We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully completely Christian” (The Forgotten Trinity, pp. 14-15). And yet most other scholars know that the Trinity is beyond human understanding, “The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind, but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul” (Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, A Christian Handbook, pp,51-52, 1953). Nowhere in the New Testament is believing in the Trinity a prerequisite for one’s salvation. Nowhere in the Bible did the LORD ever reveal Himself as a Trinity, or Triune God. Interpolations exist in the New Testament, which are words added later to prove the Trinity. Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 are proven interpolations, and therefore not of the original Scriptures. 1 John 5:7 is known as “The Johannine comma,” due to a sequence of extra words in 1 John 5:7-8 which appear in later versions of the Bible, but not in earlier Scriptures. Compare these words below in italics in the KJV and the same verse from the newer ESV. "For there are three that bear record (witness) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:7-8 KJV). "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 John 5:7-8, ESV). These extra words are generally absent from the early Greek manuscripts. They only appear in the text in late medieval manuscripts, which were done by Trinitarians to bolster the man-made doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinitarian doctrine only existed since the 4th century! A religion unexamined is not worth having. Besides, most Christians when questioned about the Trinity prove to be Modalists (The Forgotten Trinity, p. 16).

Thank you for this content and I too feel the overtly political wing that started with the "moral majority" (sic) has done more to turn people from the cause than has brought people in..."What would Jesus do," also was a sentiment that has driven my search for God ever since. Fwiw, although I am not of the same religious view as Sean, I REALLY appreciate how he engages folks who disagree and are also seeking Truth.

Do you really want to live in a country where we’re no longer permitted to worship God? That’s what’s coming unless the Church stands strong. WAKE UP!

Modern Evangelicals represent a recent view. Christianity has far more depth and history than its shallow nonsense. But try telling them that and they just freak out. They don’t want to learn. Learning terrifies them and they distrust it.

Yeshhh .. !! Come on?! Nothing was confronted or delineated or greater understanding reached. That's called a waste of time! The can't say anything confrontation for fear of offending someone syndrome of the mamby pamby believers.

And now, a word from our Founders... "The gospel history of Jesus consists of a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticism, and fabrications." ~Thomas Jefferson “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for creeds, confessions, oaths, doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.” ~John Adams “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. ~Thomas Jefferson “I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.” ~James Madison “We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition. ~George Washington “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.” ~Thomas Jefferson “As strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by ecclesiastical bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.” ~James Madison “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” ~ Treaty of Tripoli 1797, signed by Founding Father John Adams

From my Australian perspective here the terms Evangelical is generally always used I the theological sense of the three version you discussed. Preachers from that tradition have often avoided politics. One of the best I heard it from this way, yes christians should be involved in politics so go out and join the political party of your choice because we need good Christians on both sides of politics. But kept their own politics quiet because they were not in a political role themselves, but wanted to help the biblical views of people of all political views. I think the concern we have when looking at America is it appears there is a view of churches saying you must be of this particular political persuasion or you are not a Christian.

It's got to stop somewhere, then things could cool down. Maybe start with pushing more racial and economic issues. Counterculture issues that we all know Jesus preached and non churched people could join.

The whole discussion halfway through about judgment was a straw man. Non-Christians don’t care if you morally disapprove of our life choices, we care when you use the government to pass laws that ban our choices. That is the issue, and it’s exactly what we don’t do to you. We don’t forbid you from living your own life as you wish, all while claiming that we know what is best for you better than you do. This is not a both-sides problem. It is your failure. You are the persecutors.

But see? Our north star should not be "American" anything. We can assess what we have done with the gospel, but in the end, we look to the actual, spiritual gospel; we don't conform to the sick thing, "Amercan evangelicalism", either for what it actually is, or purports to be, or is said to be by its enemies. We let all the garbage go, and look toward what is true, and alive, and real. The guideposts are in the Bible, not in our own misinterpretations of it. It isn't even patriotism to not hold our own country's failures and rebellions as what they are; look at the false and true prophets in the Bible. If we are sick, we need a physician. But the question is, do any of us American Christians know where we could find a physician?

I was enjoying this until he said"Jesus would probably have done this too"

As someone who grew up in and eventually left a non-Evangelical tradition, I can't get behind evangelicalism. In my experience, the American Church is more or less a Doomsday Cult more obsessed with "prophecy" than loving their neighbors. Further, most Evangelicals I've encountered have turned the Bible into an Idol despite not really knowing all that much about it.

I'm sorry, but "evangelical left" sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Who is your Lord? It seems most American Christians have a two faced view of faith. Most believe they can never lose their salvation. This is like going out to sea in an inflatable boat with a lead (Pb) coat of mail! It’s a false sense of security. If Christ is your Lord, then why don’t you obey his commandments and follow his example? 1Co9.23-27

I think people are leaving corporate church. The church roles such a as pastors and all this power and control that isnt mentioned in scripture. It’s turned in a crazy show that’s not led by the spirit of God. People are fed up with thag and religious garble and legalism. People are not leaving Jesus per se, the are leaving religion.

“Baked into our system?” Really? Give me a break.