In 1988, I started a professional training as a photographer (my dream job at that time). Six months later, I quit in disillusionment. I quickly understood how the wind blows. I later earned my living as an IT specialist. But my love for photography is unbroken - only I photograph for my family, for friends and for myself.

Praying for your mom. Your care for her is evident. Maybe your most important assignment.

Always refreshing to hear your thoughts. And I wholeheartedly agree with them. I only want to clafiry something that I also believe. It is still possible to make a good living as a commercial photographer. It is way different than when my studio was rocking 7 days a week, and that was before you even started. It is way different than when you started out. But that difference is just that... different. Success depends on what we define it as. For some, it means being at the pinnacle of the very top. The best, with the highest fees. But just like we have few supermodels today, we have few superphotographers as well. That ship has sailed, and the very few that remain are not bringing up new talent as they go. I am a commercial photographer. Shoes, towels, food, product... and the only editorial I ever did much of was fashion. (For the record, fashion is to commercial photography as soccer is to polo... boh use a ball.) Currently, I work with startup commercial photographers and I watch how they struggle to get a footing, but do indeed get that footing IF... That IF.... is a huge if. If they are willing to work harder than they would at something else. If they are willing to learn from mistakes. IF they stop taking advice from people who have never done it - and never will. If they put in the time and effort it takes to create a portfolio, maintain that portfolio, and show that portfolio to the right people. If they have the temperament to deal with setbacks and screwups, and the occasional business cheat. Working smart, working consistently, and not being a wimp about what we call "marketing" - that is showing people your work - can realizes a decent set of clients and I don't care where you live. Stefanie lives on a ranch 75 miles southeast of Tucson. She shoots commercial and industrial. She is getting 3-6 RFP's a month, and successfully closing more than half. All of them come from out of state. Tucson is not a market for her work. All of them pay national rates that are very handsome. She is as busy as she wants to be. She could be busier but prefers to live a more quiet life and pick and choose her clients. Greg is in Kansas City and lost his corporate design gig (paid about $85K) and is on track to get to that point early next year. He will surpass that and still have health insurance and more freedom. I have dozens more and - yeah - some would say they are anecdotal, but anecdotal is all we have. If they can do it, most anyone can do it (with all those "ifs" covered.) If you are measuring success as making $250K per year, then yeah, it is going to take a while to get there (or a lucky break you take advantage of). But if you are thinking that #150K with a bit of freedom is cool, then a good commercial photogra[pher should be able to do that no matter where they live. But getting there takes an understanding that the old guys hate the new business. Old guys pine for the days when... And those days when are went. The new business calls for multiple fronts of marketing and finding, as you suggest, multiple streams of income. Shoot. Learn to design. At least to the level of competent or good. Write. Expand your work on Medium and even Linkedin. Do not believe that these platforms will save you. they won't. But they will give you exposure. Teach. From community colleges to weekend workshops.... someone will be needing what you know. Shoot for wall art. Create gallery-worthy imagery and get it out there. And do not be afraid to shoot for access. I hear so many supposed pros saying "I never worked for free... ever". And I just laugh. Yeah, they did. We all did. And many of the successful shooters out there got started shooting for free or nearly free. The examples are too long to list, but we all know who they are. The important thing is to be shooting. One of my students took my advice and started shooting for a very small magazine in a very small community. She did it for tun and to meet people. And she did. She is booked for commercial work every week until after Christmas and is literally swimming in FRPs... because she shot for free. When you are visible as a photographer, other people see you as a photographer and you get to be asked to do photography. (Yeah, I know - everyone wants it for free. Not my experience. My experience is that you set expectations, and they are willing to pay. If you sound and look and act like you are not sure of what you are going to do.... then yeah, they don't have any confidence.) I am working with a client right now to put together a large library shoot for a chain of restaurants. It may be upward of #100K. They are not haggling money, just working on logistics. There is money to be made if you are very good, very focused, and can deal with the ups and downs of a creative life. Too long... I know. You ought to hear me pontificate sometime... heh.

Very sorry to hear that about your mom, wish her the best. Thanks for the video - as always it's full of great food for thought.

100% agree on point of Social Media being a strong Bargaining Chip. Best of luck on the new journey.

When I was considering photography as a career, my year 11 art teacher asked me 'You love photography but would you still love it if you had to make your living from it every day?' I never became a professional photographer.

How good was that! Thank you!

You nailed it! Good vid. I guess many people don't realize it, but you can make a living off of your own website

We truly need your voice man. Thank you for speaking up the way you do. I GREATLY appreciate it.

Sorry to hear about your mum Dan. Very insightful and honest vid which has helped me out with some shifts I'm going through regards Photography, so a big thanks from me. Great series. All the best. Neil.

Daniel love your channel! You are so real and have a lot of true information. I have started doing photography and video back around 1990 when I was 17. People fail to understand all that’s involved in running a photography or videography business. It’s a business, has all the issues associated with running a business. Great clients, crazy clients, liability etc. I had found it to be 10% photography and 90% business. There have been so many changes over the last 30 years. I used to enjoy freelancing for news and tv outlets, most of that has seemed to faded away. My sister did modeling back in the day, I had seen how narcissistic, egotistical, rude and discriminatory that the commercial world is or was. I knew that I never wanted to be a part of that. I would say if people have sensitivity to comments or feeling easily hurt, commercial work may not be for that person. Photography has always been competitive, but more competitive than ever! It seems that opportunities were greater back in the day.

A strong dose of realism. Very beneficial. Probably your best video yet (and I've watched all of them).

Daniel, I just want to start by saying that I’m a big fan for your channel. I watch your videos more than once, sometimes even twice because there are a tons of information that my brain needs to comprehend. I think we can learn a lot from your personal experience, especially like you said that you’ll never sugarcoat anything because you don’t have to. And that’s fantastic. I live in LA and I hope one day I could meet you in person and have a one-on-one conversation with you. I wish you all the best.

Well Dan this is categorically the most informative film I’ve watched on the ‘tube. Thank you! As a forty something mature student doing a photography degree with an eye on fine art and lecturing for my future, you have given me some absolute gold today. Much appreciated! With the exception of your dodgy Captain impersonation at the end 😂👌

Always love love what you have to say. Thank you!!!

Didn't fall asleep. So it was good. Thanks! This re-inforced my conviction of staying in the amateur world. The occassional daydream of going professional will stay a daydream.

S.P.E. was a valuable tip for me. You are doing great work. Thank you

You're films are becoming better; not saying they were bad at the beginning. This one was very interesting; didn't feel like 50 mins!

Wow! What a kick in the plums! Rose colored glasses off, wine glass filled. Thanks for all this information. Hugely informative. Thanks so much for doing this!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with us. Very informative. :)

Loved it man! But regarding the "do i have an ego"? The answer is yes. Check how many times you've mentioned the word 'I'. But it's okay, we all have it and need it, without it we would not be doing anything here on earth. The difference is you are aware that how much of your ego is in the "front seat" of your life, and that's good.

Just found your channel tonight and it is something I really needed. Just one question; Has anyone ever seen you and Rob Lowe in the same room at the same time? Jokes aside thank you for the refreshing content!

As always, Thank you.

Quite so. I shoot what I want. The work has diminished, but I’m much happier. And the freedom to reject work is liberating.

great vid Milnor. as always, love your no-BS take on the world. just lost my mom to an 8-year battle with alzheimer's. as brian wilson says, 'love and mercy' to you and yours.

Another extremely refreshing piece Dan. So relevant to the current photography climate. I've been a photographer and lecturer in photography at adult education colleges and a university for over thirty years. Making a difference to and seeing my ex-students making successful careers in photography still gives me a buzz and a reason to continue on that road.

Very good man! Thanks a lot.

Keepin' it 100 per usual! Loved this one...focus breathing not so much but but the brain put the Ganzfeld on like 5 in and I was good. Thankfully your leading lines and framing helped as well. Seriously though few have the independence or the toes still in the water to call it like it is. Cheers.

That is crazy just watched Tombstone last evening by stumbling across it on TV and of course completely sucked in to the end… thanks for dropping the knowledge on us but can you go deeper and explain how “formula driven” photography is now seen as the norm…every sunrise and set is perfect light with glow or the portrait all have same look. Your statement about buyers and I would add consumers just take what is given. I enjoy searching out the creative or original work, even with my photography. But the wide world just falls into the generic look of Instagram...the real creative stuff requires effort find.

Great movie reference, tombstone. Val Kilmer was fantastic..

I enjoy making money online,there is this good feelings it gives me

As interesting and insightful as ever. I’m a quarter way through Lynsey Addario It’s What I do. Also a great eye opener to the world of photo journalism. Good read. Thanks for the tip.

Enjoyed. Maybe one of the best vids you done here. As I sit here listening to you with my feet up , staring out the window watching the bird feeder, I sat to myself, this would make a great pod cast. ( this is coming from a person who only listen to about 3-4 pod cast)

Your like my own personal Yoda, thanks for another great video

That might’ve been the best description of the fine art photo world I’ve ever heard. It is one of the most appealing sides of photography but also the most disgusting, discriminatory, gate kept, acceptance driven, fickle genre ever.

More useful than so many “trying” to be a KZfaqr. Maybe should call it UsefulTuber. Smart advice. Although the tools have changed, at the end of the day either you is or you isn’t. Good stuff!!

WOW! definitely feel you!… I've come to dislike shooting for people of late. I tried to run, and put obstacles in front of my last client for weeks, in an attempt to put them off, but they were determined to hire me to shoot video at a one day conference. I caved and agreed to shoot, but just hand over the footage and take the money… It's easier… Then they decided they liked the way I edit, and convinced me (ahem) to produce a rough edit from the footage. I did the work they way I see it, sent the rough edit, and haven't heard back from them for about a month. I feel a fight coming on!… grrrrr When you shoot for people, you have to dumb down, and over the years, that has taken it's toll. Also because Covid stopped a lot of work, I've become used to doing my own projects and pleasing myself for last year or so… 🙃

You know this video reminds me that most of the legendary photographers who made iconic images, made those pictures as amateurs. By amateur I mean pictures done just for themselves, personal work, NOT on assignment or in service to anyone else. Henri Cartier Bresson did a lot of shooting in Mexico including assignments for Mexican newspapers but the only pictures from then that we've see are those he took for himself. I would also say the same is true for Andre Kertesz as another example. Funny how it is THAT work that editors want to see, just before they assign you (hopefully) to shoot something totally different (or so I've heard).

I was a funeral photographer, yeah-not as sexy as it reads-relatives/loved ones would complain to me that the deceased didn’t look “Alive” enough which didn’t make sense because the person was literally dead in a coffin and it was in the years before digital, so film. I did my time, learned how to use a camera-made my $$ and got out of the business as soon as I was able-nowadays I take photos for myself and never introduce myself as a photographer; because I’m afraid people will want to hire me to photograph their whatever-event and I’m not interested in engaging in that manner-I enjoy collecting books, photography, paintings, etchings etc from other artists.

I feel like I just had an enema. You never mention the Time Magazine Friday afternoon cocktail cart perk!

In every such sector, there is a *(a)* top 2% that makes a lot of money, a *(b)* 25% that makes a decent living, and *(c)* the rest who rely on inheritances and spouses. My question would be how much money does category *(b)* make? I'm talking about people who actually take photographs and sell them (from wedding photogs to whatever, as long as one sells files or prints). Because, considering that even people who only push gear are considered "online photographers" (in reality they are merchants), the so-called photography industry seems chaotic in terms of who earns what. If we exclude those who sell gear or are pure brokers or are selling cosmetics etc through photographs, how much money do you think *actual photographers* make in the *(b)* category?

Just subbed to this channel. Would you have a link to that Times article you mentioned? Great video

They hear you, Dan, but are they listening? …Perhaps they’ll listen now…

Thanks for video, super informative - what is the name of photography at palm spring? Thanks

Stripes. Classic. 👍🏼

Hi Daniel, great insight/video. Yet again! But question, isn't 'fine art photography' a completely unnecessary genre in photography? Don McCullin famously said (ok, maybe not famously..) that "fine art photography' was totally fabricated by 'Americans' and it's nothing but another way to make money. What makes a photograph a fine art photograph?

Bottom line: Unless you're a very good photographer or good at telling people you are and are business minded, have some capital to "tool up" are sociable within the right circles, have rock hard self belief, determination and s following wind.....Photography doesn't consistently pay enough money to; Get a mortgage, run a car, have a family, and in the US get good health insurance and a retirement pension.

CGI has the potential to obliterate commercial photography. It's already eroding it. But it's not just chip packets, drink bottles and cars. It's models themselves. CGI models have existed for at least a couple of years. No need to book models, no need to fly them from Slovakia to Hawaii, no need for even the smallest amount of retouching. And no need for expensive cameras. So. I have no doubt that some photographers have seen the writing on the wall. And they are most of the way to mastering Blender, or Maya, or Cinema 4D. It's not for me, but it probably should be.

Do great work, share online, build following, then leverage for deals with traditional business. Got it. But what about perfume modeling? Still a valid career track, or is it dead? 🙂

You were a fragrance model? 😱

The wonky angle on that table is driving me mad.. great video though ;-)

Twitter is as cretinous as FB is. I just realised something. No one talks to me for 50 mins straight like you do. Does this mean I need to send flowers?

I want to become a pro so that I can get a Nikon Z9.

The online photo world is revolting. You’re harassed because of what brand camera you use. Sony is marketing towards influencers and youtubers is creating a powerhouse of loyal supporters.

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