Abe knew, the moment they assigned him the Yukikaze as escort, he was a dead man. In any battle the Yukikaze is in she survives with narry a scratch and everyone else dies screaming. She was there when all the carriers were lost at Midway and she was the escort for both the Musashi and the Yamato when they both were sunk. Had she continued serving in the ROC Navy, Taiwan would probably be part of China by now.

Fun fact that was not mentioned is that initially, the U.S. Navy’s reaction to Commander Joseph Enright’s report of sinking the Shinano was one of disbelief. The Office of Naval Intelligence did not have the Shinano on their records, as Japanese secrecy had been so tight that they were unaware of its existence1. They thought all Japanese carriers had been accounted for, and it was only after the war that the report was verified and acknowledged as accurate

When USS Archerfish sank the Shinano the US Navy refused to accept his claim of Commander Enright. They gave him credit for sinking a cruiser. Only after the War did the Navy brass realize what Archerfish had achieved.

HIMJS Shinano. Her service life was measured in hours and was the largest ship ever sunk by a submarine, the USS Archerfish. She made world history in that way, despite never having a single plane launch from her decks.

Shoki Fukae, a Japanese actor who played villains in movies and TV show, is one of the surviving crew members. He was rescued after drifting for 12 hours at the time of the sinking.

I love how Simon compares the Yamato to the Texas, which at the time was the oldest battleship in the US fleet. He ignores entire classes of US battleships which were active during WW 2.

When you said little is known about the Shinano, I can completely understand this. Having worked for a major Japanese company for 5 years, I learned that everything is on a need to know basis. If they felt that you didn’t need to know, you weren’t told. That’s just how they roll.

A bit odd to compare the Yamato to the Texas. The latter might have been modernized to fight in WWII, but at her core she was still a WWI era ship. For context, the Texas was commissioned barely a decade after the Wright Brothers' first flight. I understand not comparing to the Iowa class, as that was also a massive late-war ship, but a better comparison might have been the King George V or North Carolina.

There's actually an outstanding account of Archerfish stalking and sinking Shinano in Edward "Ned" Beach's classic nonfiction book, "Submarine!", which chronicles the exploits of various USN subs during the Pacific War. I highly recommend the book to anyone interested in the subject.

That’s not a sonar picture of Shinano. It’s a blown up overhead photo, possibly from the reconnaissance flight. No expedition has ever been recorded or claimed to have found the wreck.

9:15 - Ah yes! The Battleship New Jersey! My wife and I were visiting her daughter in Philly years ago, and decided to take a tour of this ship. Hardly anyone was there, so they just gave each of us a tape recorded "guide", and off we went on our own! What a hell of a ship! Just standing on the bridge and looking out over the bow was incredible! It was an awesome time!

It was a huge aircraft transport/ferry with an asw carrier airwing. Carrier usefulness as a frontline deck in WW2 had more to do with the ship's speed than tonnage... Shinano's Yamato class battleship heritage gave it a top speed of about 27 knots. Frontline carriers required 30+.

Actually, the IJN's mentality for much of the Pacific War was that, at some point, the USN would attempt to breach their defensive perimeter and a huge Jutland-style battleship-centred battle would eventuate. So, the IJN carriers did most of the heavy lifting early on, while most of their BBs were kept back waiting for this expected big battle. Unfortunately for them, the Allies and their island-hopping strategy did not really play into this plan. So, when Japan's BBs finally did begin sallying forth as a last resort, it was mainly on suicide runs, whether intended or not.

Geez, you don’t even mentioned the book written by the very submarine captain that sank her! Which by the way had a hard time getting credit for sinking her.

The Shinano, despite it's size was designed as an auxiliary carrier, not a front line carrier. While was supposed to have a small air group of its own, it was meant to carry replacement aircraft, ordinance and fuel for other carriers. So basically, the the time it was launched, it was a white elephant since the few carriers that Japan had left had no aircraft or trained pilots. I wonder what they would have done with it had it not been sunk by the Archerfish. I can imagine them loading it up with Kamikaze aircraft and sending it on another one way mission like the Yamato, perhaps in at attempt to strike a U.S Naval anchorage.

The Shinano wasn't a supercarrier It was a Fleet floating Warehouse, It was meant to be the hub for other carriers to supply from along side garrisons. Like of it as the Carrier verison of the Uboat TypeXIV milkcows.

All the battleship videos you've done but none on The Iowa Class Battleships?...

Despite being spooked by the 1 Nov 1944 B-29 recce mission over Tokyo (actually an F-13A, a photo recce version of the B-29), the IJN ironically need not have rushed Shinano out of Tokyo Bay to the Inland Sea. It's apparent the USAAF's XXI Bomber Command HQ on Saipan wasn't aware or wasn't interested that the F-13's photos contained a picture of a carrier. According to the book "Strategic Air War Against Japan" by Maj Gen Haywood Hansell, USAF retired, the F-13's mission that day was to photograph aircraft and engine plants in the Tokyo area. Over 7000 photos were taken, so IMO it's not likely the USAAF photo interpreters at Saipan would have wasted their time looking at ships at Yokosuka Naval Yard/Base or in Tokyo Bay in general. They would have prioritized identifying aircraft manufacturing plants to bomb. Those would be the initial priority targets of the newly arrived B-29s in the Marianas, not IJN naval vessels or installations. Interestingly, Hansell states that all copies of the photos from that mission were sent to Admiral Nimitz's command at Pearl Harbor. So the US Navy also apparently overlooked, misinterpreted, or ignored this photographic evidence. Since Shinano was built in such secrecy, the USN had no SIGINT on the carrier and therefore thought it had accounted for all of the IJN's remaining carriers. Of course, the IJN couldn't have known any of this and had to assume Shinano was spotted and therefore vulnerable to B-29 attacks. Even if Shinano's departure from Yokosuka had been delayed a few days as its captain had requested, it probably wouldn't have made any difference.

Built in Yokosuka Naval Shipyard, in drydock #6. The area around the drydock had (has) steep, rocky, vegetation-covered hills and cliffs, which contain tunnels dug for the purposes of cover and concealment for the workers. When I was stationed there, there were still remnants of the tunnels as well as tall poles supposedly used to support camouflage netting during the building of the ship (so I was told back then). I was also told that the workers were basically sequestered during the building of the ship as a security measure. Great video! Very detailed, especially considering the lack of information available.

Captain Enright went on to co-author a book about this experience (also something of an autobiography) titled "Shinano!", subtitled The Sinking Of Japan's Secret Supership". Quite interesting read. It should be noted that the recon flight causing Shinano's sudden move had not triggered any sudden responses from Allied commanders. Such was the quantity of information coming in by then, that these specific photos only got attention retrospectively, days after Shinano was well and truly sunk. Btw, as a special point of pride, USS Archerfish's crew always referred to their vessel as 'USS Archer Fish'.

While there isn't a formal definition, Forrestal (and the follow on US classes) are supercarriers because they are *fleet carriers* , who could operate a *larger air wing* and *larger aircraft* than their contemporaries. They need the "warship" range and speed to do offensive missions. Shinano's origin as a battleship hull design, and the fact they had fitted out the armor and the lower decks spaces and equipment for that role before finsihing her as a carrier meant she was *severely* compromised as a carrier (and the vestigial battleship armor is the reason for her "biggest carrier until Forrestal" status). Shinano was built as a *support* carrier to ferry aircraft, more akin to a really large, fast, heavily armored version of the US "jeep carriers". She couldn't undertake a fleet carrier role, despite her size, speed, and survivability, bevause she couldnt support and maintain a *working* airgroup commensurate to the effort of having out there. Her pruporlse was not to be the tip of the spearhead - it was to keep that spearhead sharp by dragging along 120 aircraft that basically couldnt be used operationally *from* Shinano - they would fly from Shinano to their new home carriers and operate from there.

She made a lot of firsts in her short life and one of them was having the most internal open holes in commissioned warship during wartime conditions while underway.

Additional information: While Shinano was converted into a carrier from a battleship, at the time of her conversion work to begin, 'Some" Portions of the 400mm main belt was already installed before her battleship design was discarded. Those portions of the lower and upper Armor belt was kept IF they were already installed before the conversion work, everything else after was greatly reduced, in some areas the armor belt went from 400mm (15.7 Inchs of armor) where the main battery barbettes used to be, to around 6.9 inches of armor everywhere else, (Flat armored surfaces could range from 3.5 inches to 7 and a half inches thick). Shinano despite loosing tonnage from her conversion, Her Machinery and remaining 15.7 inch armor belt still provided pretty good stability on the lower hull, Additionally a proper torpedo Protection "Bulge" was added, which the Battleship design lacked, BUT the Armor belt joints behind the torpedo protection were still vulnerable to damage from torpedoes strikes, which as found in the Yamato and Musashi's service life would cause the Armor plates to Buckle from the force causing the armor to become undone, which was a design flaw Shinano inherited from her sisters design. But when it came to the superstructure and Hanger deck, lessons learned from the Carrier Taiho design, Shinano along with the Taiho had the sides of their hangers unarmored in order reduce top heaviness, but an Armored flight deck was carried just like Taiho to provide protection from bombs. To prevent the situation that caused Taihos Downfall, ( a Build up of Aviation fuel fumes caused by a submarine Torpedo that ruptured her fuel tanks, and since Taiho had a fully enclosed hanger deck, the fumes could not be purged from the ship fast enough and after accidently sucking up the fumes into the ventalation system, a spark occurred somewhere in the then fuel air bomb Taiho, caused her to Explode) Shinano was built to have an open hanger deck with open and closable shutters that could close the hanger deck off to the elements or battle if needed.

I like you providing the book reference at the end. It’s good to acknowledge relevant work and its author.

Interesting how I randomly searched for this channel and a brand new video was uploaded 15 minutes ago

"The water pipes and their sealing? They won't be installed until Tuesday." Archerfish's crew stated for years they sank a massive carrier. Intel people kept denying it as they didn't think Shinano existed. 'You may have sunk a tiny carrier, but nothing the size you claim.' Took decades to confirm the kill as a Yamato-size carrier.

They really should look for her wreck, the ship was such a mystery and could teach us much. Just think, if her hull is in one piece she will give us the only example of an intact Yamato class hull, worth looking for her just for that.

One thinks often of this sinking. It didn't have to become the tragedy represented by enormous loss of life. But as you imply, Abe unduly delayed the order to abandon ship, leaving most of the crew trapped below. One can only imagine their horror as the waters rose up within the hull. While there is satisfaction in a great naval victory as scored by USS Archerfish, there is simultaneous grief for the many lives that were lost, most of which losses were unnecessary.

The Shinano wasn't a super carrier, it was just a big carrier, and it was more of an aircraft transport than aircraft carrier. The Midway Class was closer to a super carrier than the Shinano.

Interesting video, but I'm not sure why they keep using a World War I era battleship in comparison to the Yamato class

Shinano will never be forgotten by me

It wasn't that Shinano wasn't "built properly". She was incomplete and being moved to a drydock further north to be finished out of range of bomber attacks from Okinawa. When you said she had a service life I was already raising questions-- because she didn't _have_ a service life. She was never completed or commissioned. The fact that she wasn't even finished is a large part of why the crew were unable to control the flooding, with watertight seals not all installed yet and several doors stuck open due to equipment/cables from onboard work crews.

I’m Team Forrestal because I served over three years as a fleet sailor aboard her in the early 1989s.

Wouldn't the Iowa class have been a better comparison to the Yamato class?

the Oka's were not her 'air group'. they were cargo.

Damage control? In our moment of triumph! I think you over estimate our damage! - Toshio Abe

Whether or not she was a supercarrier, she certainly was not a super carrier

KZfaq stopped serving me notifications for MegaProjects and I forgot to check updates! I have now rang the bell but I have a few months of videos to Binge! 🥰 Thank you for putting a video out that KZfaq wanted to push to me more than the others for some reason 😅

Awesome episode! Thank you for all the hard work 🤘😝👍

The order to move Shimano never made sense to me. Like think about it. The IJN knew subs were in the foastal waters by this point. They knew that the bombing raids thus far had only used incendiary bombs and bombs lighter than 1000 lbs. The worst a bombing raid would do it damage the ship and the port. Botg of which can be repaired there with little extra space. Verses losing the ship they spent two years converting. Its madness

`In a book I read about this, the author speculated that one of the torpedoes, when it exploded on the armour belt, shoved a girder, used to separate the inner and outer hulls, into the ship itself. After that, all it took was time for its demise.

The Archerfish was awarded (post ww2) the largest amount tonnage sunk by a US sub from a single ship during all of ww2. The reason why it was awarded after ww2 the Admiralty didnt believe the sub sunk such a large ship.

Fascinating topic! Thank you.

Wow! Surprised to wake up to a Shinano video! Cool!👍

Yeah, pointing out the known unknowns is always a good look.

Finally! Such a underated story I wish there was more youtube videos on the amazing story this ship and submarine had. Thanks for the content!! :)

Pardon how nitpicky I am but here are things I noticed 0:57 ‘May I present the IJN Shinano’ *proceeds to show footage of a Yorktown-Class Aircraft Carrier, most likely USS Enterprise* 4:09 *shows Akagi prior to her second refit which made her topmost flight deck longer and got rid of her other 2 flight decks*

I would say the Shinano was more of a hybrid type carrier rather than a - "Supercarrier". She was like you pointed out a battleship Yamato class hull that really wasn't suited for a supercarrier. At best Shinano would likely have carriered 50 or so aircraft and Japan was planning to use her as a support carrier. The USS Forrestal on the other hand was the first large scale designed carrier with mainly jet aircraft. It would have been more interesting if the Shinano had been completed as the 3rd Yamato class BB rather than as a large incomplete flawed carrier. Would she have been at the battle of the Philippine sea and would she have survived that battle or had been sunk like the battleship Musashi? Shalom

Your opening video of the Shinano is actually of a Yorktown class (look at the funnel and director tower).

Shinano lacked the capacity of even a true fleet carrier and while commissioned, she was never completed. So no, not a supercarrier.

Wow Simon, thanks for filling me in on a story I've known about since I was 9 years old. I even had a 1/8th scale model of the thing back in 1963. Digging deep for stories these days I see. Whats next, the story of flight?

A more apt comparison might have been to show specs for Yamato- and Iowa-class battlewagons, both of WWII vintage.

Comparing Yamato to Texas seems weird, Texas was laid down in 1911, Yamato in 1937. Comparing it to the Iowa class makes more sense and would put the two ships much closer together in technology.

Texas is a nice ship but wouldn't an Iowa make a better comparison? We even have multiple still as museum ships.

Solid! Top KEK! Peace be with you.

I've heard about this before but not embellished with all the great details!

Calling the Shinano a super carrier is a stretch. Even if the ship had been used as a carrier, it would have not scared the USN, as they had well over a dozen Essex carriers, each of which could carry around 100 aircraft. All three ships built on the Yamato class hull proved to be great targets.

Apparently there was one other ship that sported an 18 inch gun, the Lord Clive a British monitor that had one 18 inch gun fitted for shore bombardment. It was used in the D Day campaign iirc

Very interesting and informative.

Cool vid! Thanks folks!

Strange that Yamamoto who advanced IJN aviation allowed those 3 behemoths to be built. Japan's worse mistake other than failing to finish off Pearl Harbor, was in not taking Midway a week later. Had they done so that Dec. it would have prevented the Doolittle Raid and the Battle of Midway. Saving their carriers.

Archerfish visited Sydney in the mid 60s. I had the pleasure of going to sea in her for a day

Shoutout the effort for transparency and factual reporting sourcing ❤

Ironically, Shinano probably would've been more effective as a battleship.

My dad was on archerfish , you got the story down pretty good. One point my Dad said was the shipyard workers uniforms looked like officer uniforms, so the crew was confused on who to listen to.

Thanks for this video, you did a remarcable job and paid tribute to those ones who fought for their country. SHINANO BANZAI ¡¡¡¡¡

Loved the mention of the Texas, any chance we could get a full video on her? Especially with her currently undergoing restorations.

At full displacement Shinano was 71,890 tons when Forrestal was 82,402 tons That’s almost 11,000 tons heavier (10,512 exact) Plus why compare Yamato to Texas ?, because the Iowa Class were a much bigger threat to both Yamato and Musashi as they had 50 caliber 16 inch MK7 Guns Also Shinano is likely forgotten as there’s very little information and details about her less than a month voyage and unlike Yamato and Musashi her wreck has yet to be found

I wish that one Yamato class would've survived. Too bad it wasn't meant to be. 2/3 sacrificed to the altar pride and hubris.

that's the most in breaths i think I've heard from Simon. New mic?

Shinano's biggest problem was her slow speed. The Yamato Class battleship had a top speed of 27 knots, which is well below the 30 knot minimum speed required to be an effective fleet aircraft carrier.

Can we get the Fletcher Class of DD’s?

Not an aircraft carrier, let alone a super carrier if you never fly off an aircraft.

the film footage is not the Shinano, more like a Yorktown-class; the still image is the Shinano.

That WAS FANTASTIC!!???????!!!! Bob

The Texas was a pre WWI dreadnought class ship. A better comparison would be a New Jersey class battleship.

The crypto folks who broke Germany’s enigma and the Japanese Purple had a major impact on shortening the war. Simon is a great narrator.

Why compare the Yamoto to the Texas, a much older ship? Comparing it to the Iowa would make more sense (especially with that sneaky photo of USS New Jersey that was used).

The captain who was in charge of the Shinano relocation is basically to blame for the loss of the ship and who made history that day, not the Archerfish. If we talk about incompetence and overconfidence than it is definitely Toshio Abe performance during the trip. It is very similar to the Bismarck being engaged by Hood when the admiral just did not care and it was the captain who eventually gave the order to return fire. Sure she would have been sunk later in the war, but had the destroyer made her attack run, the outcome would most likely be different than what it became known for.

Should have just reached out to Drach, he is the maritime man after all.

Why pick a WW1 battleship instead of a WW2 battleship?

Shiinnano was actually supposed to be an auxiliary carrier. She wasn't even designed to have her own flight wings. As far as her sinking, no ship survives 6 torpedoes while not even being fitted out. She barely had a proper crew and still had dock workers and builders on board when it. It's actually a testament to her design she stayed afloat as long as she did.

Dear Simon, I am very happy that you give both metric and imperial measurements for items. Kudos for that! But might I ask you to not alternate back and forth about which you voice? The numbers are on the screen, but it get’s confusing when you speak one and then a short time later you speak the other. Thanks for your consideration.

My Shinano? Wasn't that a song by The Knack? Christ I'm old....

At least there was an attempt

Simon You are the Greatest Of All Time (GOAT)!!

Now I have to see Drachinifel weigh in on this. Unless he has, and I’ve missed it.

Ah yes, the sleepy floof. She wouldn't exactly classify as a supercarrier with a rather small aircraft capacity for the size. Only the size of the flight deck and armor would make it "super". Most of the tonnage would have been inherited by hull armor alone. Even if she has been properly completed, still would be nothing in front of the plentiful American carrier groups, their vasty improving air wings and the ship crew damage control ability. Being a gunship carrier conversion, it makes Lexington and Saratoga seem extremely advanced...

Those 18 inch shells have almost more range than your average EV, and have just as fiery ending

I was unfamiliar with Shinano until a few years ago, thanks to 😬Azur Lane. Since then ive tried to learn as much as I can, cause by far my fave of the sakura empire characters 🥰

Actually, the idea of not completing Shinano as a battleship had been around before the end of 1941 as a result of Force Z finally getting the IJN to realize they had screwed up and shouldn’t have built the Yamatos (though they were hardly the only ones to have done so: this was a problem endemic in WWII navies in general). As a result all work on Shinano was suspended temporarily, and construction only resumed just so they could launch her to clear the dock.

The US Navy's Enterprise (CVN-65), the Nimitz, and Gerald R. Ford class carriers definitely deserve to be referred to as "Supercarriers".

Yamato: Sunk by aircraft, 1945 Operation Ten-Go. 10 American aircraft lost. Musashi: Sunk by aircraft, 1944 Battle of Sibuyan Sea. 18 American aircraft lost. Shinano: Sunk by submarine, 1945 prior to sea trials, Sea of Japan. No American losses. People talk about the waste of resources that was the Atlantic Wall, or the fanciful V weapons of the n*zis, but the three hulls of the Yamato class netted basically nothing of any military value during the entire war for the Japanese Empire despite their enormous cost.

It's odd to compare the Yamato to the Texas, a pre ww1 dreadnought, and not compare Yamato to her contemporary the USS Iowa.

The term "supercarrier" was not applied to the Forrestal because of her tonnage. It was applied because she incorporated new design features that made her a different beast than previous carriers (much as the "superdreadnoughts" were a different beast than the older dreadnoughts). One of the keys was that Forrestal was built to handle jets - the first such carrier. Older carriers could handle jets to some degree, but lacked the 4 catapults and robust hydraulic landing wire system needed to operate jets at the tempo of older carriers operating piston-engine aircraft. Shinano belongs nowhere near the discussion of supercarriers, whatever her tonnage.

A "Supercarier" is a 100k tonne war grave waiting for one piece of cheap munition to get through to the hanger deck and send it to the bottom.

Shinano was not a supercarrier. Shinano was a heavy armored escort carrier. Big difference. Just because a carrier is large doesnt mean its a supercarrier.

Thanks!

The yamato's might have been the biggest battleships with the biggest guns (460mm) and the thickest armor(400mm belt), my money would still be on the Iowa class wich had only 406mm guns and 305mm belt. Why? Because the Iowa class had gun fire control radars. Yamato could in THEORY outrange the iowa but its mechanical computers & optics ment it could only start getting an accurate firing solution at 25km. While an Iowa could start firing at 35km and even further (wich they did against japanese destroyers). Not only that, Iowa would get an accurate firing solution after one or 2 salvos while a yamato would need to this mechanically & with brain power. And Yamato's thick armor was not of great quality. In reality both Iowa & Yamato could pierce eachothers armor, wich was proven post war on a spare belt armor of yamato vs a 406mm gun (with reduced charge to mimic long range). Now add in a 5 knot speed advantage for Iowa, she could dictate a battle. Yamato could not. Yamato is overromantized simular to the Tiger tanks of Germany.

Shinano was many things, but a supercarrier was not one of them. The IJN decided that Shinano would carry reserve aircraft, fuel and ordnance in support of other carriers rather than a being a fleet carrier. She was too slow at 27 knots and although heavily armored, carried only 47 aircraft. The comment that she weighed more than the USS Forrestal is misleading due to the fact that you are stating standard displacement and a large percentage of Shinano's displacement was due to her armor. Full load displacement of the Shinano was 72,000 tons whereas the Forrestal displaced 81,000 tons at full load, so Shinano was not heavier operationally. Finally, what historians are you citing when you estimate her air wing at 100 aircraft? I have never seen that figure or anything even close to it anywhere. Most sources quote about 47 aircraft (including spares).