Modern dominating lower ranks and slowly getting "worse" as you go up the ladder i think is an indicator of it working exactly as intended.

I remember showing my nephews a bunch of fighting games for the first time over the holidays who are all like 9-14. They loved DBFZ and Marvel 3 but really didnt like MK, SF5 or DNF. I think having simple abc combos and auto combos goes a very long way towards making new players have fun. also for the most part, all the special moves are just quarter circles which is the easiest motion input probably. They could even have fun getting beat up by me in dbfz and marvel 3 since they at least felt like they could hit a combo when they get in and they could feel like they were playing properly.

Hey Kizzie - thanks for the discussion as always, love to see JM on the show. Since you're covering a lot of sort of meta topics on here - one thing I'm curious about: how do different pro players choose the game(s) they commit their time to? Is it where they can win the most cash in tournaments, is it a kind of loyalty to a franchise like Street Fighter, is it what feels most fun to them or game that have a larger player base, etc. I'm sure there's plenty of reasons and more than one might apply to any given player. Maybe you can ask/elaborate in some of your future videos. Thanks!

The thing with SF6's Modern Controls is that, it's very much designed with intermediate-level play in mind. Meaning it's busted at lower ranks, okay, at the middle ranks, and kind of a handicap at higher ranks. And balancing something like that entirely depends on a game by game basis based on a specific game's system. Other fighting games can't just follow SF6 and call it a day. The thing with a lot of fighting game's simple input systems is that a lot of them takes control away from the player. A lot of them are designed for the most casual of the casual audience and handholds the players too much, which instantly diminishes their usability as an alternate control scheme. I can point to Tekken 8's Stylish Mode as an example.

JM & Kizzie should start a podcast together. I would 100% listen to that.

Ngl, i don't mind motion inputs, i like them a lot, but in games with one button specials I genuinely find myself not missing them. I think we're a little stuck in our ways in that regard.

It's never stated outright in the video but it's implied that Modern = motionless control scheme but actually, and maybe this just isn't known by many, Modern in SF6 has the full range of motions(qcf/b, double qcf/b, 360s, 720s, half circles, & dps). And I don't mean motions in a gbvs sense where like yeah it's there but it's kinda strategically pointless to ever do them over the shortcuts. No, the motions in Modern actually provide utility as in they do moderately more damage than the shortcuts and give access to the varying strength levels, plus certain specials&supers in Modern can only be accessed by motion command like Jamie's Palm.

I think you guys hit the nail on the head right off the bat. Modern controls allow less experienced players to immediately assess the meat of the game. The mind games. The spacing. All these elements that aren't just about hitting a bunch of buttons with very precise timing in the right order. You pay a price because you have fewer options and the damage limit and all kinds of things. It is overall less optimal way to play. But it lets you experience the game. As all the pros have said over the years, it's not really about knowing how to do a combo. It's snowing in the matchup. It's snowing your options. It's snowing how to make use of all the mechanics and keeping them in your head throughout a match.

I think Modern Controls in SF6 have been added with the most care imaginable. I don't think every game should have them because I don't think they can be something to just throw in without much thought. But in SF6 they're just perfectly implemented.

Thia is such an interesting discussion Ive been conceptualizing a FG for a few years now and the one question i always come back to is "do i need 3 different control types or just make the controls easy to learn?"

Most ppl play FG on pad. Even in the recent T8 poll Harada put out, it wasn’t event close. I feel like controls designed around pad first will increasingly become the norm, and FS will disappear into a micro-niche, while maybe Hitbox will be the more mainstream “pro” input. So perhaps not specifically SF6 modern controls, but I feel like the entire genre is going to move in this direction over the latter half of this and into the next gen.

To me, Smash Bros actually presents an argument for motion inputs. Terry and Ryu have the same number of moves as everyone else, but you still have more options because you can use the motion inputs for different strengths on attacks. Imagine if EVERY character was like that, it’d be crazy.

I think the biggest challenge mentally when I was new to the game is the idea that I have no choice but to play someone who has access to certain things that look hard to do with little to no effort. In a ranked setting I’d like to know we are playing with the same rules. As I grew and learned to master my characters I was phased less and less. I think for ranked it would be cool if there was classic only or modern only modes. Maybe it’s more feeder ranks and then it’s blended when it’s not as broken. Idk. I think explaining that you’ll have to spend more time on the game if you want, and new people shouldn’t be forced to take the disadvantage.

7:33 JMCrofts - "Auto combo's don't really make sense in Street Fighter, I don't really know how they would do it." Has he ever played Modern controls? The biggest draw to modern controls isn't a 1 button fireball, or even instant supers, it's the auto combo button. I've played fighting games since the SNES/Genesis. But I've never been able to actually perform proper combo's at even an intermediate level. Modern's auto combo button is by far the strongest part of the tool kit for me. It also allows you to be able to play on a multitude of characters, and perform at a similar level, versus trying to spend countless hours, learning frame perfect timing's for one characters combo's. Then giving up when you can't hit those combo's in an actual match online.

I think all fgs should have some sort of secondary accessible control type. Not exactly the same idea of SF6 though, because it might not necessarily work well in every single game. But in a broad sense, yeah, "something like SF6". A clearly positive side of SF6's modern controls is that it's a separate control type, compared to the accessible system of KOF 14-15 and DBFZ, that is the one button autocombo that is forced on the player. To me all these things must always be a secondary option. Doing things that way was an actually good contribution from SF6... that luckily has been influencing other games like T8, and the upcoming Fatal Fury will also not have a forced accessible control stype. Doing the favor of leaving accessible controls outside the default gameplay is the right direction for the fg industry.

It all comes down to the the game's design. While this wasn't even necessarily purposeful, the difference in competitive depth of Melee vs any other smash title is pretty titanic (All the titles post Melee being watered down was purposeful because Nintendo seems to truly hate their fans, competion, online...). As someone who played Melee mostly and started branching out into traditional fighters fairly recently I personally didn't want to use modern on SF6 in particular because of the limitations and because it just didn't sound/feel like Street Fighter in particular. I will say I probably would have quit if I hadn't gotten a leverless pretty quick after starting because things like accidently jumping when trying to quickly double QCF or something drove me nuts. It's still a bit daunting and rough to get the hang of (properly chaining into supers in the heat of a battle is my bane and still so inconsistent for me) but I knew what I was getting into and don't mind taking it slow and just let the progress come slowly but surely. I don't really like Modern in the sense that they tend to hurt me as a still learning, lower ranked player, but if it brings more players to the game and balances out in the end it's fine(and impressive to pull off). I think 2XKO's success(with all the hype, major name FGC developers with the finicial and manpower backing of Riot, having plenty of alpha builds for top players and influncers to try out and give their feedback, I'm more than comfortable already saying success) will cause a wave of more modern control fighting games that will suck if they don't have the depth(or potentially just get overlooked if they don't have a pre-established characters/franchise unfortunately) or have potentional to be an extremely popular game if they get the depth with very intuative with a low floor and high ceiling in my opinion. Does that mean that QCF, etc input fighting games will die off? No, obviously, but I do think they will continue to try and weave in more macros together with special attacks inputs. Innovation and experimentation is never a bad things with video games and is sadly much less a priority thanks to suits having way too much input on things they no nothing about.

I see it as Work smarter, not harder!

I've been playing fighting games for a very long time and in SF6 I prefer playing modern in most cases. New players (in a general fighting game sense) will always mash and spam at first. They're trying to find what works and can develop from there. Modern isn't teaching you anything in SF6. You aren't going to learn to do a DP by not doing DPs. If you want to learn something, you will have to learn it. Even in Modern. Modern controls in SF6 still use motion inputs. Honestly, the big diff. between low rank modern and high rank modern is the integration of both directional and motion inputs in their gameplay. I try to use motion inputs mostly so I don't lose damage in some scenarios, but in other scenarios I will use directional for speed or accuracy. I think the biggest hurdle for Modern SF6 is that the value of the Modern character is pre-decided by the devs. Does the character have any decent set-up auto-combos? Are there any decent meterless auto-combos or are they all too meter heavy? Does the character lose way too many of their best classic tools (ex. Modern Blanka loses his overhead). I would love to see a little more player agency with Modern SF6.

If its there its there, if its not then I don't care. I think that any game should be played as intended by its established controls and that includes if it has modern controls from the start. I'm not sure if every game needs this but I'm not the one using it, so I don't care for its implementation to enjoy a game. Like If they go back and add modern controls to SF2T what would people think? I feel games during the height of its popularity is remembered the most by the experience during that time, and also think games are enjoyed for simply playing what is available to the game.

I see y'all using the DotoDoya FighterZ clips!

I think it’s cool how viable modern is in street fighter ranked and I’m overall for it but honestly nothing on earth is more tilting than losing to a modern player by dropping a combo or missing an input then getting one button super’d

I can do all of the motion inputs fine, but coming from anime fighters I prefer having less buttons and just combining shoulder buttons with face buttons to get the various alt strikes. Plus if you are still getting use to links over magic series or gattling combos it helps to have a couple of fall back auto combos.

No game should have invencível supers with one button. It's madness.

capcom should have an online dynamic control mode

Modern controls are fine. If you're getting washed by Modern, you either don't know the MU or are too predictable. One thing I will rage about is "modern reactions"/ one-button DPs/ supers but that's a me problem not realizing the moment for it.

Rather than giving games modern inputs, they shouldve remove the motions altogether like 2XKO or do it like GBFVS which has cooldown on it. But if it can be balanced and implemented nicely as SF6, modern is good too tbh. The one that ppl has most problem is instant super and DP, which can be solved if done like GBFVS. I think yea GBFVS so far the one who done it the best. Still keeping motions, while giving ppl to do specials and super without motions.

I don't want no discourse about Modern being busted, even on low ranks. SF6 was the first fighting game it took it seriously to learn. Started with literal ZERO LP on rookie. I've 4 characters on mid diamond and slowly grinding do master played it all on classic and never had an issue facing modern

I wouldn’t be against it but definitely just depends on the game and it’s mechanics. Modern Control is really simplifying the controls but what if they’re already simplified? Ironically, you can switch to quarter circle motions in NRS games through the control settings; but I’ve never see anyone use it 😂

Hoping to see some FOMO Boys merch at available

Ryu + Ken, Mike Ross + Gotecks, Ultra David + James Chen, T. Steve + Sajam, Brian F. + Robtv, Kizzie Kay + JmCrofts

Commenting on every video requesting Makoto’s BBCF combo trials, video 97.

SF6 does Modern right. Most games don't. Granblue for example, every character is Modern by default and there's next to no tradeoff to the simple inputs, if you're not using 1-button inputs you're handicapping yourself. SF6 it's a real choice, as a beginner Modern is helpful but as an experienced player it's usable but not optimal. Capcom did a really good job on it.

It’s inevitable that all FGs in the future will have some kind of M control system or just be solely that. It’s less of an issue if they’re built with that in mind and imo complexity should come from how ppl interact with the game systems and their decision making anyway. Thats the real meat of fighting games not quarter circles

yes they should, for the memes alone

Motion inputs are what balance out moves. If you can’t do a dp that’s too bad just get better at the game. I hate modern controls

I hate 2D Fighting Games that have no Motion Inputs at all. Just takes the whole fun aspect for me. I play on Fight Stick. Doing a DP Motion is fun. Quarter Circles for Fireballs are fun. I lost interest in 2XKO & HunterXHunter said it was just all Directional Inputs. I think Games should give you the option to have both. Thank God for SNK for staying Hardcore. Fatal Fury: City Of The Wolves is the only Game I'm looking forward to.

Nah MK is the same as Tekken we say numbers instead of actual controller buttons lol

Yes so people can shut up about it,and yes have separate matches modern vs modern classic vs classic mode again so people shut up modern was mostly made for controllers while classic is built for arcade controller that utilizes all six buttons of attack,plus if you really lose to basic autos your just bad.

I read the title as "SHOULD ALL GAMES HAVE MODERN CONTROLS?" and immediately thought of Modern Counter Strike: click anywhere on the top half of the screen for a headshot. I want that.

I love the controls for Injustice 2 and Dragonball FighterZ. I love the mixture of both classic amd modern these days. Just feels better to play.

NO

For sf6, If they defined about how modern controls are in ranked, i wouldn't be tripping. Also, i think the approach is the assist in making things easier to execute things in the game, i feel that will open up the fighting game world more for all people. To this day, inputing QCB twice to do a super art in sf6 isn't convenient. Something that would help, rather than going the modern controls route, maybe provide a SA button assist button to perform supers and maybe make a three button input with QCB perform an alternate way to do a super art. That way, the stigma being assisted with modern controls would be lessened.

No

Yes.

i am sure sf7 will be only modern. just like majority of new fgs

Honestly, difficult inputs should not be a hurdle to get into fighting games. It just reduces your audience.

I don't really think modern controls are good or even should be in some games it fundamentally breaks games it's a shitter idea to say I don't know how to play a game so gimme different controls like shooters don't have an issue like this and we got some super complex control schemes that can't even fit on a pad so personally to me people need to get better. Note that no other genre has ro deal with this and therefore its people not the genre.

No.

Modern Controls biggest problem is one button supers and DPs If supers could be done with one button for every control type then it wouldn’t be a problem

making a game with easy controls is fine, but shoving them into older games is pure cancer. and it doesn't even work. RIP DNF.

brutal reality: Classic Controls will keep fighting games a niche, oldhead, genre. The Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft generation and beyond will never play fighting games if they still have to QCF.

I look forward to a day where new fighting games come out and no one even expects motion inputs to be there.

sf6 is the best modern controls can be implemented, and it still sucks. the modern control fad needs to die, it's not good for fighting games

modern controls are wack

No learn how to motion

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. To the people who are upset about modern/simple controls existing in fighting games. Stop getting mad that companies are implementing these. They are an option. They don’t make the game worse. Project L may be the game that might change that because that game is basically modern controls all around. But I’m sure there’s still depth to it. People wanna play how they wanna play. Let them enjoy it.

Thats a great to ruin fighting games . SF6 is trash bc of this option .

if this happens fighting games are dead

Modern must no existing at all 🤮😡

Should ALL Fighting Games Have MODERN CONTROLS? That's easy. the answer is NO. Save yourself 20 mins and skip this video. We know the answer.

No.