Find someone who looks at you how Mike looks at Chat Bubbles KEKW... So the debate surrounding addons and 3rd party tools rages on both in WoW and FFXIV - some of it reasonable... and some of it not so much. What's your position on addons?

as far as FFXIV goes, it's key to remember the ToS has not changed since it was introduced a decade ago. Addons have always been against it, but it's not applied universally and sometimes they look the other way. The race had too much though and I assume they felt they couldn't not do something. I don't think the team is going to start banning people for accessibility plugins and ui decorations. They gave us an inch, and some tried to take a mile.

With regards to FF14 banning addons, besides just the philosophical objection of wanting the game to be fair and be played as it's designed, I think there is an element of legal protectionism and paranoia which is common among Japanese companies. They don't want you to mess with their product, and they DEFINITELY don't want to be held responsible for HOW you mess with their product, or what happens to you if you do. They are not just thinking about situations where someone installs something that trivializes the game. They are thinking about situations where someone installs malware thinking it's an addon, and then blames the company for saying addons are okay. They are thinking about situations where they say mods are okay and then people post their big titty catgirl nudie mods all over twitter with the implication that the company approves of this. They are thinking about situations where someone mods in copyrighted material and the copyright holders decide to hold Square Enix accountable because they allowed it.

Since FF14 has no official API, it's kind of impossible for the devs to regulate addon usage which makes drawing lines about what is and isn't okay a lot harder since they can't enforce strict boundaries. It would come down to how they worded their rules and I think they fear that any concessions towards allowing addons would quickly get out of their control and could potentially cause problems not just for the game but for the company. Whether they could even implement an API is another matter since the game was never designed with addons in mind like WoW was, they might not even have anyone on staff who could make one. There are plenty of innocent addons in FF14 but there are also lots of really, really bad ones. Way worse than anything WoW has ever had, because there is no regulation and no anti-cheat. That stuff could cause a huge stink if it ever even got a whiff of addons being "approved for player use". It makes sense that the devs just don't want to deal with the situation when they have so little control over it themselves.

I can't imagine playing WoW these days without addons, but I will say I love how I don't have them in FFXIV. Obviously the encounter design is different, but it is so refreshing to not have to rely on things like dbm and weak aruas. I set my HUD, and that's it. I've no problems with visual/QoL stuff, but I can see the issue SE has. I think we're all praying for chat bubble implementations, though.

At the very least, FFXIV will never endorse addons as long as there's a console version. No amount of player outcry will make them budge on this, imo.

I hope they add chat bubbles to the game officially because the Crawler's stage play, one of the greatest player created things I've seen done in the game, would not have been possible without them.

I hope FF14 will take in a lot of feedback from what people want in add-ons to improve the UI and accessibility options. I've never liked downloading add-ons for WoW and I've really been enjoying FF14 on console. Not having to think about stuff like updating add-ons or worrying about damage meter performance has been so much better. I would love to see chat bubbles added too, it looks so much better than looking at a chat window.

I'm of the opinion that everyone draws the line at a different place so a true middle ground is impossible to meet. In saying that it's also the developers job to review criticism and rule breaking to find the root of the issue. Whatever compromises the Developer makes at the end of the day will only appease some people. Two things I personally don't like. 1. In WoW the competitive PvE race is determined to some degree by a software race external to the game which gives large organizations an advantage. 2. If you develop with addons in mind, you are creating a problem for players to solve external of your game which to me feels like backwards thinking, If you need an addon to reliably find a solution maybe you should rethink the problem.

14 also has to contend with Console players who *can't* use mods. if they want to keep the playing field fair, there's inherently less room for nuance.

As with most things, the sensible position appears to be the middle ground. Most people don't care about QoL/graphics mods. A game whose endgame is almost exclusively intricate dance fights, don't cheat the dance.

SE has listed what they priorotize in investigations... I don't think any streamer will ever get directly banned for damage meters or chat bubbles, the problem was things like automated call outs. People forget that the banned players actually got an "I told you so" from his team for streaming with ACT callouts function which is what likely actually got him banned (making the game easier, the very top thing they investigate).

When he started talking about using just one single addon, I knew immediately which one it is, and it's honestly surprisingly common for people to get the entire idea of using addons because of the lack of chat bubbles. I use many more addons than just chat bubbles, but I might never have started using them if the game had chat bubbles for players natively.

I think it's also a disability issue at play here. In my over a decade of wow, I met deaf players who used weakauras cause they couldn't hear the raid leader's call, I had people with mental problems and neurodivergent people who just, through no fault of their own, lost focus for q bit and needed sound queues to come back. All of those people were capable of raiding at the highest level the game had to offer at that time, none of them could have without addons. They either need to change the game to be as with the boss you mentioned, where the raid leader was obsolete, or they need to keep addons in for people who are capable, but unable to handle the convoluted mess wow makes bosses sometimes.

There's an interesting discussion about accessibility features for ppl with disabilities being abused for other players to have an easier time or to cheat. You could probably argue from a disability accessibility standpoint that wow is at its strongest right now. This could be effected by any changes made. Any changes made should be paired with more accessibility features added to the base ui/settings.

Seeing Preach & the crawlers going through Amarot was all the convincing I needed to know that Chat Bubbles NEED to be in the game. Soon Pleeeeeeeeeease!

That intro knocked it out of the park Mike, more of this please

In regards to addons, I think non-combat related addons should be fine. I'd prefer they incorporate it into the main UI as I *really* didn't like having to manage addons in WoW and I am one of 3 people who actually really likes the FFXIV UI, but I also realize that itself is a glacial process and unrealistic. Whats going on in WoW right now is the logical end destination of what happens when you don't have guardrails or restrictions on combat addons in games like these and I absolutely do not want to see FFXIV come within a 1000 miles of that place.

I'm vanilla but I would love chat bubbles. Watching your streams with them made me realize how handy and how much they enchance the game. Its definitely the kind of mod I expect to get officiially added because in Yoshi-P we trust. I would imagine that.. going forward whatever gives even the SLIGHTEST aid IN GAME to help clear a fight, its off limits. Yoshi-P was very smart and careful not to name the world first cause he knows it was 'tainted' with these mods. In the past they likely thought it was fine but their stance changed. Discord is fine - it doesn't interact with the game (even though you could make it that it could but thats the difference). Cosmetic mods also completely fine - like the chat bubbles non the wiser knows you have them.

the beginning was-- [chef's kiss] m'wah. must've taken a month. idk i've never edited a clip that extensively

My biggest problem with WoW addons is that Blizzard haven't just created some sort of steam workshop equivalent to download them through.

The first MMO raid I had ever done was Gruul, and when my guild beat it for the 1st time, my thought at the time was, "I want to try fighting him without DBM." There was another time when I overheard a conversation between two other people about another raid (can't remember which) where they were saying how the raid is easy, my thoughts that I wanted to say to them were, "Then why not turn off DBM to give yourselves more of a challenge?" The issue with addons to help with the boss fight is that part of the game is to learn and memorize the mechanics. Think of it this way; playing a game of pairs while writing down on paper what you found while playing. While some would see it as a clever way to help win, others would see it as cheating because it goes against the whole point of the game: to memorize what you found and match the pairs with the least amount of mistakes made. My personal perspective on the situation is keeping the definition of what a game is in mind; 'A challenge based on a set of rules for amusement, enjoyment and entertainment.' If there are elements in the game that is counterproductive to me rising up to the challenge, then it's on the devs to fix it, however, if the issue is that I'm simply not up to the challenge, then it's on me to make a decision: Either improve on what is keeping me from succeeding or call it quits.

the production quality is perfection. should've watched this in IMAX

I really enjoyed this video. I've drifted away from WoW, so it's been a while since I've seen your content. You seem a lot less stressed than I remember. I look forward to seeing more.

I used to raid in a world top 30 guild from mop through nighthold and I always found it sad that even at that level that everything was pretty much figured out for us before we ever got to a boss. Full boss mods and weak aura suites all set up to make the most difficult content as easy as possible. Which to me completely undercuts the entire point. I feel like having all these addons effectively playing the game for you cheapens the experience by a ton and requires less skill out of everyone. So blizzard has to design more punishing as opposed to challenging mechanics to make up for it. And punishing fights just aren't fun design.

A significant point that's being overlooked in this debate is the fact a large portion of the playerbase is on console. If I recall correctly, the majority of Japanese players are on the PS4 and 5, PC gaming is not as big in Japan as it is in the West. They cannot install any addons at all and there is a serious concern for Yoshida about the kind of unfair advantage this would inevitably create, the worst case scenario being the rest of the playerbase excluding console players from content (there is a small precedent for this: back before the network improvements in ARR, console players were often being kicked from Titan HM parties because the lag on mechanics made it so avoiding them was much harder for console players.) At the end of the day Square Enix is a Japanese company, so for better or worse the feedback of Japanese players will always be the first they receive and take on board, and this has been apparent throughout the game's development (majority of liveletter questions have been from the JP community, for example.) I personally have no issue with any non-combat addons, I use a number of them myself and would be saddened if they decided to pro-actively start banning all of them, but I understand their position. Here's hoping this spurs them to implement the UI mods like chat bubbles into the game proper like Yoshida said, even if I don't use them myself!

Hey Mike, loved the video, and I hope everything is ok on the homefront. I do find it telling that Holandris, of the few boss fights where an addon is of little use, was one of, if not the most interesting part of the most recent WoW RWF. It's where a lot of guilds were given the opportunity to close the gap, and, at least in my mind, shows how limiting DBM effectiveness made for a more interesting race. I saw a lot of people giving the FFXIV grief for not immediately congratulating Neverland on the world first clear, but I think the recent crackdown highlights why. They make what is considered the hardest fight in FFXIV so far, groups start to clear it, and their kill videos are loaded with ToS violations. You can clearly hear the audio callouts of mechanics. That puts the devs in a really awkward spot because validating their clears would also be a tacit endorsement of the methods they used to accomplish those clears. Its a really delicate situation.

The thing with "there has to be a middle ground" argument is that it not like as if the situation is a clear cut left, right and center. That center/ middle ground is still wide and will still be hard to have a definite point where to draw the line specially when it's 3rd party stuff we are talking about. Without giving a suggestion that gives a definite, complete and clear cut border on as to where and how much an add on can function (not counting the tasks of monitoring and keeping these addons in check being they are 3rd party softwares) SQEX will always maintain that generalize blanket stance on no addons both for sanity and legality's sake. Chat bubbles? Better UI? Those things can and should be tackled on the suggestions section for future in game improvements, devoid of the addons argument. You said it yourself, even a simple, supposedly innocent addon can be taken too far (case in point are those mods that went too far with changing looks and went into lewd territory already). I know people love their QOL addons and its understandable, in fact SQEX has always, always been lenient when it comes to usage of this things (even dps meters) as long as A. For personal use only B. Never discussed or advertised. I understand content creators will take a hit specially on B but SQEX has to make a stand and content creators do have the responsibility to abide with the TOS of the game. We have to remember anyway that the reason addons have been an issue lately is more so because of game mechanics related add ons (similar to the one in wow showed here by preach and basically any other addons that give more information about the mechanics way more than what was intended by the developers). One can clearly see from Yoshi P's post that it was their main issue specifically (even have a specific bullet point about it and even mentioned not releasing content they havent cleared themselves without addons obviously). So just steer clear of these types of addons and just keep on suggesting those in game UI improvements. As for QOL addons? If you are using them alreadt then continue again as long as you keep it personal and never shared (sorry preach, i guess you can just enjoy chat bubbles during off stream gameplay).

I'm a console player so I can't use add one anyway but the add one I find myself envious of are things like gshade, chat bubbles and other UI stuff, I'm not interested in anything that makes encounters easier because half the fun of ff14 is learning the fights and optimising your uptime around the mechanics. I haven't tackled any ultimates yet but I have done extremes with nothing more than practicing until I've learned the fights and have done savage with discord for voice chat. I don't think add one that make combat easier are necessary but there are UI tweaks I can agree with. Luckily they've said they will look into adding official versions of UI mods into the game.

Having a bit of dev background, I think a middle line could be official in-game addons library, where they are submitted and then checked by dev team, accessible API is managed through “client keys” and addons signing. A little bit more work for game developer to manage it, but also allows “crowdsourcing” component and console support.

U get a like from me sir just for that intro alone...plus the lighting on u seemed cool and ominous

my fave addon in wow is a keybinding addon that lets my bind buttons to a button rather than a spellbar so i can place abilities wherever i want on said spellbar and its binds are unique to each class/spec, having to use the same keybinds on all classes in xiv is frustrating to no end. i dont mind not having addons in xiv but some elements do need some work after so long

Some add-ons are fine, but ones that figure out the whole encounter/fight gimmick should be removed

in ff it's a "no" because we have console players who just aren't able to install those things. i myself are fiercely against the use of addons but chat bubbles really aren't the problem here. i've been suggesting things to be added to the game ever since 1.0 and all of it is in the game by now. so i am sure they will implement your chat bubbles sooner or later and everything will be fine. that's the way we do it in ff. we send feedback. the feedback is always read. so if what you suggest makes sense and more people suggest it, chances are it will be implemented whenever the dev team finds the time to do so.

Great video Preach. I’ve watched it 3 different times the first with you. Hopefully we get chat bubbles

Insane vocal minority that went on a witch hunt. 14 UI is passable but not great and they know it. Hopefully see some additions soon. I agree with no battle add on for 14 and I would like to see wow slowly move away from them if possible. I can't stand the toxicity that gets created around DPS meters. I really want developers to come up with a unique solution to having something in game that allows the player to get better with their class/ability.

These are great points. One suggestion, if you aren’t already…. turn on Japanese subtitles. I remember Yoshi P asking English speaking content creators to add them so they can watch and understand.

One big thing with Square is they are doing the most protective policy possible for them. One of the main issues with 3rd party tools is the legality and what some people do to characters in this game. There are various adult mods for this game, and various characters which are not over the age of 18. And combining those two things would make the game very very excessively illegal in a fair few countries. That is why even out of combat mods are not allowed by ToS.

YO that intro meme was amazing. Had me dying lmao

That intro is absolute perfection.

Definitely feel you on the chat bubbles... To me it makes the world feel more alive, and I've always wondered why NPCs have them but players aren't able to use them in an official capacity. Of course, I realize not everyone likes them, which is why if they were to be implemented, I'd prefer them to have an on-off toggle.

There's certain addons that I think should probably make their way into the main game (like chat bubbles being an option), but the issue is that without an anticheat in the game, Yoship only has so many options with how to deal with it, and the community's consistently ignored his "just play nice and don't cheat" pleading for years now as they lean more and more into the kinds of gameplay advantage UI mods that exist. So, his hand's been forced because he can't officially give the OK to any one addon since they're all against ToS. If I had the choice to deal with a nuclear option banning of all addons, or a game that eventually becomes WoW DBM (or worse), I'd take the nuclear option in a heartbeat.

I'm glad that the topic is at front and center, so devs can be aware of it. Non-combat related stuff, cameras, chat bubbles, housing placement systems.

Great video, and I'm glad someone understands the middle ground. I'm seeing far too many go "just break everything" or "just allow everything" and both are wrong. I actually wrote a big post about this a after the ion interview that you should check out. Addon take from an addon author. I'd also love to talk to you on this topic if you want.

Combat addons are the ones of concern. I don't like them. Fights should be designed with clear communication from the encounter to the player. No blue balls on blue floor on blue void zones. I played the game without any combat addons from 4.3 to 6.2. 6.2 broke this streak. I needed addons for mythic HFC. These fights were not doable without them. Other addons such as custom UI's, auction addons, quest addons, automation addons (leatrix), item management addons, atlas loot, altoholic etc - these are fine.

I’m generally fine with add-ons that improve the HUD and general QoL. It should be obvious which ones these are. If you want some bigger fonts or message boxes, improved lighting, or something like glamaholic, then why not. That being said, the line exists where the add-ons interact with the core content of the game. The parts where the most effort is demanded of the players. In FFXIV, this is combat. Therefore, add-ons which tell you what to do during a fight, feed you information about party member cooldowns, or show you splash zones for attacks that don’t have them - and of course the damage meters - all cross the line of changing how the game is played in a drastic way. When this happens, it is not unreasonable for the Devs to feel the need to drop the hammer and enforce the rules that they put in place a decade ago.

Old school runescape has started promoting a 3rd party client on the website since it provides a boatload of QoL plugins(including an HD mode). And they're slowly but surely incorperating those plugins into their main client. There's been some bad blood between the client and the game devs, but its nice they're getting to the point where they're doing more than tolerating eachother

I see the micke desk in the background, bring me back to working in ikea

You're giving Blizzard wayyy too much leeway in this argument imo. Why can't they make the Jailor have unique animations for each of his attacks? Why cant they have standardized raid markers for similar mechanics? I blame Blizzard for essentially outsourcing the game design and UX to the addon makers instead of actually doing a decent job designing a good and understandable boss encounter. If they were able to step up their game, then addons would no longer be necessary, its a crutch, not a necessity.

FFXIV will have the "give an inch take a mile" situation which is why I don't think they should allow any and im pretty sure its the reason they dont want to deal with it.

That intro, 10/10 perfection!

That intro is top tier

Addons for me have always been about tweaking the imperfections of a game. As an example wow's UI customization has been terrible for a long time, addons let me better customize my ui, FFXIV doesnt support mouse over casts by default (yes macros exist but those come with a whole host of issues) so I use an addon to allow me to mouse over cast. I've never been a huge fan of automation addons, stuff that automates your leveling experience, or your raiding experience, or whatever else, as I feel those take away from the game rather than add on to it.

Add-ons always exist because the game itself is lacking something, even for a small subset of people. Usually QOL or customization. Whenever possible, devs should look at what popular add-ons are being made for their games, because they often show what might be lacking in their game and development of said game. Most people I see using mods in FF14 are purely cosmetic or UI/UX related, telling me people want more options for cosmetics and character customization and more QOL for their UI. WoW is like 90% UI add-ons, because blizzard has refused to actually improve upon their base UI and experience outside of very small changes per expansion, on top of combat add-ons that tell you more about the fights due to how the fights are designed and visualized (imo, not always very well, especially with high end fights with not very good indicators for mechanics). I think not having any officially helps ff14, though the ones that exist exidt for a good reason; but I think wow's culture of NEEDING add-ons to do pretty much anything endgame due to how it was designed to be very hands-off in that regard. The best and most reasonable answer is ofc somewhere in the middle, and I wish WoW would ban combat add-ons and make them only UI related.

personally i agree that there is a balance to be had mods that give you no game play advantage but improve small areas of the game such as chat bubbles, filters for screenshots or hats for viera are things that I hope get added into the game as we move towards 7.0 but in the mean time i can understand why people will want to continue to use these to improve their experience there is definately needs to be more to the discussion than just mods good / mods bad as the answer lies somewhere in between.

That intro was PURE GOLD!

My stance is and always will be, if the add on trivializes the mechanics of an encounter then it is bad, otherwise all should be fair play. Not big on Damage Meters because I've seen their effects in both ffxiv and WoW so I would rather they don't exist but that's more personal than anything.

The biggest problem with addons is if you give people an inch they tend to take it a mile.

Wait, I was a paladin in the video of Sindragosa he used - good old Royal Vanguard on Dragonblight! I had to do a double take as I remembered a gnome mage called Mirko and suddenly realised! Thats a blast from the past, didn't expect to see that today!

That intro is perfection.

This along with Mr. Happy and Zepla have the most reasonable takes I've seen. Totally agree with all three. Addons for FF only become a problem when they either trivialize an encounter or are used, as Preach says, "as a weapon" against other players. As a long term wow player who swapped to FF in the last year I can say that one of the most refreshing things is the lack of widespread DPS meters. Make it so that I don't have to constantly feel like I'm playing an esport when I play with a group and that is a very nice thing. That said, for those who want personal improvement, dps meters can be a useful tool. IMO they should be permitted so long as they are not "visible" or used to abuse other players.

If I was going to get one thing added into the FFXIV experience, it would be the chat bubbles. I miss having them from other games that I have played and would really love it if it could be a thing that the team brought in.

Intro was amazing

That intro was PERFECTION

I kind of agree with square. The game and devs already do their best to ensure that every game can be beaten without addons. It is impossible for them to police every addon to decide which is good or not. I don't want ff14 to be another WOW because its always a slippery slope. The responsible thing to do is to make a discord or community that deals with this and contacts the devs. The devs are responsive to feedback so I don't see why they would ignore quality of life feedbacks from the players.

I honestly think the best stance is what FF does, for as long as it's possible. Like, I think it's fine if people sneak addons during progression or whatever, I just don't want it to become the mainstream that it would be by endorsement. Honestly this is the serious issue with WoW; anything WF raiders use bleeds down to be mainstream even in pug runs, not as serious but it's still there. That said I think it is also a thing where MMO devs tend to underdesign the UI side of the game, omitting easy non-intrusive options that other games might have, where you just don't get why it's missing. This I really would like to see improved, not just for me but also for as you say, streamers using actually useful and non-intrusive addons. :)

Good honest take here, much appreciated to see honestly

the intro was fire

I really hope ffxiv adds chat bubbles. Npcs have them so they can do them. It’s one of those Qol things that need to happen. Have them able to be turned off ofc though. Also well the TOS is the TOS witchhunts are one of the dumbest things ever. Hopefully this dies down soon enough and we can return to some sense of normalcy. That one add on that showed area of effects for attacks that are visual based though was bs and should definitely get people banned.

Just to inform that, this things is always happened every time there is a big race in the game. The reason square Enix stand on no addons whatsoever that interact with the game is because FFXIV is cross platform game, player in PS4/5 can't have the benefits of PC player does and this is automatically become unfair advantage to console. But giving a suggestion to add this system from the addons that improve QoL like chat bubble, buff timer on party list, and difference of magic and physical dmg numbers can be considered. Ff14 had their big CD numbers before but for some unknown reason they downscale the CD number to the size of ants.

solid position, Mike. I agree with your take. UI? QoL? sure. mechanic nullifiers? no.

That intro was... Perfection

couldn't imagine wow without addons anymore, specially being on an RP realm, so RP addons add so much more character customisation and immersion by letting you describe your character so much. I've got Weakauras as well and such, though weakauras for me is to replace my UI rather than encounter specific stuff. e.g. my health bars are weakauras, character power like mana, combo points, soul shards etc... and my hud's for procs as i prefer progress animations that empty out the lower my timer for say my pyroblast proc is, rather than the standard one from blizz themselves. the most intricate weakaura i have, would be the outlaw rogue roll the bones one, to see if I should reroll or not, depending on what my own buffs are. Wouldn't class that under gamebreaking.

One of the reasons in WoW for the "need" to have addons that trivialize an encounter is the size of the given raid. Having 20 people coordinated for an extended period of time is a massive increase in difficulty over lets say 8 -10 people. Another aspect to it is that the human mind almost always gravitate towards the path of least resistance, hence addons that make things easier. Be it UI, Chat Bubbles, Action Bars, Cooldown / Buff information addons. There will never be a game that do not have people that want to modify it to their specific liking, because just like in real life we are unique individuals with unique taste. The addon question is not a black or white question, it's a muddied grey area that is basically impossible to make a fit everyone area.

Jesus this intro. Chris, you madlad.

Being left handed, and playing with mouse on left, and the ten key for my action bar, Bartender, and that 3x4 configuration to match the ten key is vital.

I had recently started playing WoW a few weeks ago. and was surprised when I asked what the mechanics were to a boss was and the answer my friends gave me was that I should get DBM. because they just followed DBM. honestly I find DBM and GTFO and addons of that sort kind of ruin the point of a fight. it litterally just says "hey, do this" when a mechanic happens. I think the only way WoW can combat this is adding consistency to fights. markers or distinction to attacks that tell the player whats going to happen just be looking and paying attention

Between the two options I prefer by far a strict no addons policy, although things like accessibility, chat bubbles, gshade, hrothgar hats and hair enablers, etc. obviously don't bother me and should be in-game in the first place so whatever. Also, I'm against DPS meters in general, but I think attacking a striking dummy or entering a Stone, Sky and Sea instance should pop one. I personally couldn't care less what color my parse is on fflogs (a clear is a clear) but it doesn't mean I want to be a deadweight or "carried" in a party. If I'm performing so badly that I'm consistently forcing others to compensate, I want to know and I want in-game tools to help me get better.

Your hair looks excellent, Mike! Plus, I've got my damage meters, UI stuff, etc., but I hate that I need them. I feel blocked off from content because of the insane quantity of addons, and I have always been terrified of Logs because I'm worried that if I mess up, or don't accrue high enough Logs that I'll have a stain on my character. Further, if I don't have Logs, I can't get into a raid group to get them easily. I know there are ways to get around this, for sure, I'm aware I don't see the whole picture. However, the fact that I feel this way at all, and can't just let my in-game results be enough, and that I have to maintain this 3rd party record is the biggest turn off for me. I just wanna login and play, man. I don't wanna have to curate my Logs, and stress over not parsing purple or blue.

A little late to this video, but SE did actually kind of do this, with 6.3 dropping in like 2 weeks they are going to be adding timers for buffs/debuffs for the party in the party list so you can look and see how long a party member has on a buff or help if they have a debuff for some mechanics. Which until now was not in the game.

I personally hate Addons, and way back in TBC I helped design a RP Addon that had almost a million downloads. I personally want chat bubbles, Viera hats, and a few Quality of life UI improvements. But what I hate is ACT, and the FFXIV version of DBM. They make the game easier, and can be used for toxic purposes.

I think they're at a point where the code is so massive it would be like taking out a jenga block and that's a coding nightmare. Kinda hope they're just working on WoW 2 with some clean code so they can modify stuff like that on the fly. With the game being this old and most of the original coders gone I'm pretty sure it's hard for them to change anything. Hence no ripcord

Anyone that would watch the play that the Crawlers put on and say "Yeah, we need to get rid of those chat bubbles. Report Mike..." is the type of person that would claim that everyone ELSE is having fun wrong. I agree with your take. Personal preference enhancement = fine. Group encounter enhancement = just learn the fight. FFXIV gives you all the tools to do so.

Totally unrelated to the video...somewhat, but I really want to see that theater in more detail and see if someone has something similar in the Crystal Data Center, because that was simply fantastic!

I am a big fan of addons in the sense that it makes it possible for some people to play the game who would have otherwise not been able to... WoW has an addon that enables controller support for those who can't use a keyboard and mouse and even FFXIV has some addons that greatly improve the color blind modes. I really hope they take a good look at those kind of addons and implement those changes in the future... QoL addons are nice and all, but accessibility addons are just a must sometimes!

I played WoW from launch through MoP with all the add-ons I could get my hands on, and I played FFXIV from ARR's launch to present with no add-ons. The latter is so much better to me, aside from no chat bubbles and a housing / apartment system that doesn't allow coordinate precision. Side note: 2:50 "Vocal notifications" are not simple, they are often using data to tell you about a mechanic before it starts being telegraphed to players. It's quite obviously cheating.

Got me on that intro! Hahaha

That intro is perfection tho...

Personally, I think that FFXIV's standpoint on addons is mostly fine for everyday players while WoW is WAY off on the deep end of not fine for everyday players. In FFXIV for example, an everyday player could use things like chat bubbles or the camera improvements or whatever and literally nobody would know, nobody wipes on the raid and then is immediately saying "Hey everyone instead of improving at the mechanic lets trivialize it by installing this weakaura.". You are affected by things like this because it is the negative portion of "streamer privilege". You are streaming your gameplay and everyone can see that you are using them but that is NOT the everyday player experience. Personally I dont think that the rules should be altered with you, asmon, pyro, bell, etc in mind front and center. WoW on the other hand is WAY WAY WAY on the other hand and is affecting literally everyone that engages with the end game portion of the game. It isnt just UI improvements or AH improvements. The combat addons have to go. If that breaks auctionator along the way sucks to suck. You are expected to have DBM, and MRT, damage meters, logs, weakauras with multiple auras already installed before even walking into the raid/M+/PvP (I know pvp has their own addons outside of what I listed I just dont know them cause I suck and dont do it). If your raid wipes some asshat will look for a WA that will immediately make whatever you all just wiped to a thing of the past. But just as players have gotten to reliant on add ons in WoW so have the dev team. Can someone tell me why the tank has to have an addon in a M+ run that announces that he is being targeted by a frontal? You see in EVERY OTHER GAME (FFXIV, ESO, GW2, SWTOR, etc) there is just a yellow or pink or some other obnoxiously bright color that says "Hey bro dont stand there or you ded." or even better, if they do telegraph the mechanic it is light blue on a light grey floor or a tiny red whisp blended in with the rest of the player and enemy spells popping off at the time. Why is by a mechanic that can wipe the raid dictated by Johnny hopefully noticing a tiny box at the top right corner of the screen mixed with 10 other small boxes? Yes. I agree there is room for XIV to improve a LITTLE but WoW needs to disable them entirely and see just how bad the game is for both everyday questers and end game pushers. Yes I realize that XIV has logs and damage meters as well. It sucks that you have to sort of tip toe around a player underperforming giving vague statements on how he/she can improve without outright saying what the problem is or you risk getting banned OR instead of tip toeing you just outright kick them because they are doing bad and you have a TIGHT damage check you have to meet to kill the boss.

I love FFXIV so much. But I find it absurd that accessability Addons are considered against TOS. If it's not giving you an advantage or being used to alter in-models or harass other players, why ban it? What's the harm in a chat bubble addon? Or color-blind addons for people who are colorblind? FFXIV is notoriously bad at options for colorblind players from what Mr. Happy has said. I understand console players can't use addons but why punish streamers with accessibility issues or people who want to harmlessly alter their ui to be more comfortable?

For WoW, I doubt they’ll ever update the UI because community addons will always be superior to what Blizzard will update. ElvUI looks amazing, so I use it and I enjoy the project that comes with tweaking my UI to my liking.

No mods period. Set number of people allowed into the event per Team including a coach. Get good boys

It depends on the game. In wow addons are fine because they have decided to create the encounters around them and everyone can use them. In FF I don't think it's fine to allow addons that make the game or fights easier when half the playerbase is on console and doesn't have any way of making use of them. They banned them in tos for a reason, and i think that reason is logical. Fights are designed for us to not have addons in this case, and can be beat without them. (of course this doesn't apply to visual addons. I don't think that's interesting discussion to have, because of course those should be allowed. The problem is that you can't allow some and not others)

As a console player, I never understood the whole add-on/mod sentiment. I was able to clear unreal, savage & ultimate fights (DSR not yet). All the while just playing vanilla FFXIV. I understand the many in the PC player look down on console players. As console players are limiting the upgrade and improvement of the game. How do I know?! Because, even, members in my own FC says this as they agree for they are PC players. Most players, console or PC, could care less as they just enjoy playing the game. But you do have plenty of toxic try-hards who know full well what the rules are but will “rationalize” why they shouldn’t have to follow it. But there are the toxic Yoshi P sycophants who literally take anything Yoshi P & devs say as gospel. Both groups are equally toxic. That toxicity is usually hidden just beneath the overall happy FFXIV community.

I definitely agree on needing middle ground. It would be great if they could simply target specific addons to nullify them, but as we know it isn't that simple. I don't know the solution as I'm not an expert regarding API, but would expect it to take time and development to hone in.

Mike! These intros are on point!

It's a difficult subject. On the one hand, I use mods that improve the graphical experience of FFXIV in ways that I would consider absolutely vital to my enjoyment of the game. When the new graphical upgrade happens, I may let those addons go, but that's still a ways down the road. On the other hand, having come from World of Warcraft, I want to scream to the fucking heavens, "Don't bend on this, SE." Add-ons ended up being such a cancer to WoW's design. What started as simple QoL fixes devolved into addons that were necessary to even complete content, and eventually even a way for people to gatekeep you from said content, at their discretion. That's complete shit, and WoW is worse for their existence. So as much as I'd like to stay on the fence about this, I can't: SE needs to enforce their rules. If that means someday I may have to give up my graphical mods, so be it. At least I know graphical enhancements are on the way, and I'll find the patience to wait for them if it means keeping the addon cancer out of FFXIV.

You didn't even mention the most important part of the entire discussion. Almost half of FFXIV's player base is on console.. Without the ability to even access add-ons of any kind. SE has to keep this in mind and make sure the experience is balanced across both pc and console. The fact that raid teams think it's OK to use mods, triggers, etc to compete for a world first completion race while KNOWING they are against TOS and while KNOWING that a large portion of competitors have NO access to these things is ridiculous and completely unfair. People are really crying over the fact that SE is cracking down on this!? It makes complete sense that they would.

My view on the matters comes from my profession as a nurse meeting people with various disabilities every day at work: As long as it's not for competitive content, I don't think programs that help players get through the world the developers build for us is harmful for anyone. For a lot of people it's not a matter of ''do better/read the tooltips/memorize it/react faster'', they literally can't because of circumstances out of their control. I feel the accessibility options some of these programs offer is the major reason why they've not been cracked down on harder before. And that players who really need them to go through normal content are discreet about it.

Preach: 60% of WoW screen is covered in Addons.LazyPeon: WoW has the best minimalistic clean UI. Me: U wot mate? Have you seen this shiz?