*Riding the Emirates Air Line* 'Yeah I'm on the tube'

As a wheelchair user, having Thameslink on the tube map is a massive help as not only are all the stations accessible unlike the northern line that sort of follows it, the platforms for all the central london stations are raised so I don’t even need to get someone to put a ramp down to get on/ off. Had you told me 10 years ago id feel liberated and cry at being able to get on/ off a train without staff help, I wouldn’t have understood. I wouldn’t have known the line existed if it wasn’t on the map and I’m very grateful it’s on

Crossrail should actually be called "Thameslink" as it links places along the Thames from Woolwich to Reading. Thameslink should actually be called "Crossrail" as it crosses London and the other rail lines (and the Thames).

The current tube map currently folds out into '4 vertical rectangles'. If TFL just add another fold, they have 25% more map for Crossrail (the Elizabeth Line) and it will only be thicker by 1mm and it will still fit in your pocket.

Someone once made a 'London S-Bahn' map consisting of the Overground, Crossrail and Thameslink. When you look at that perspective, it certainly makes sense.

1) yes it should 2) yes TfL should operate Thameslink. Govia is an absolute disaster

TfL is a public service which they fail to remember. They should be providing a map which is useful, not just one showing their services

Who else is watching this video cause it's now on?

I have an old paper map showing the tubelines etc and all the British rail services that stop and start out of London. It is really useful since if you only leave London occasionally by train, it tells you by what mainline station you need to use etc. These maps with all the lines on are especially useful when they are strikes because it shows alternative routes instead of trying to get in an overcrowded bus!

1988... 'We're going to roll forward a year...' and it's December 1998. Has Geoff accidently revealed his secret that he's actually Doctor Who? :D

I stayed in Cricklewood for a month in 2017, and in my naivety I had no idea about the wonders of Thameslink. I jumped through so many hoops getting to London Bridge, when I could have just walked up the road and jumped on one of those fantastic trains. I always use the full rail and tube map now, but back then the big map was just confusing. Loads more people would use Thameslink if it was on the tube map, so decide whether that's a good or bad thing. A lot of newer arrivals to London, or tourists don't know about it, as it's only on the huge spaghetti rail map.

"A few problems" understatement of the year lol also yes it should probably be on the Tube map as many people in central London seem to forget it exists

I always imagined that the average user of the "tube map" is a tourist, like myself. I think I have one that is folded up with my oyster card and I use it every year when I visit. I would hate to have to use a larger map, the little trifold is so handy and fits inside, when folded in half, my oyster card wallet. I have to say, however, I am unfamiliar with Thameslink and what it really offers and perhaps that is because it is not on the tube map. If the job is moving people from one point to another, seems to me TFL can unbend a little and put this line on the map so people have options on their journey choice.

I think Thameslink should go on, but then all railway services (Southern, Southeastern, GWR) within the London boundary should go on. So perhaps it is time to replace the Tube map with the 'London Rail and Tube services' map

Thameslink should be on the tube map, and so should National Rail lines covered by Oyster. There's no discernible difference in service pattern between those and many Overground services. Let's not discriminate here.

love the fact that you saved old tube maps. that is just one of the reasons why I think your videos er so good.

I believe once the 'TFL Rail' line is Crossrail then they should rename the current map the 'TFL Rail Map' and have a sperate Tube Map with just Underground lines that have a symbol for each other TFL service they connect with like national rail is in the map now.

0:30 We start with map 1 from 1988 1:13 "We're gonna roll forward a year." Out comes map 2 from... 1998 1:44 Still on map 2, "But here, in 1989..." 1:56 Finishing up with map 2, "So this is December 1998." I'm confused... As for the argument, I don't think Thameslink should be on the Tube map but I do agree the Tube map should be renamed the TfL map. I also think the Rail & Tube map needs to be more visible, as I can't say I've seen it on the network much and it seems a lot of people don't even know it exists.

I know I'm (exactly!) a year behind on commenting on this, but as a Swede planning a trip to London, I like your videos about "trains, tubes and trams". It makes me get into the mood for my trip and I learn a lot. I find it weird that you have different companies for ordinary public transport in London. Over here in Sweden it's one company per county owned by the counties (There are more companies for trains and buses if you travel on a national level.). Stockholm is a far smaller city than London of course, but we have all the trains, tubes and trams on one map and the same travel card goes for all of it and there are no zones so same prize wherever you go. (Not sure there even is a map covering all the buses though.)

All Airport Express Services should show on the tube map. Like at Farringdon, it says Trains to Gatwick and Luton Airport. Doesn't have to show the intermediate stops

I love your videos, and I especially like that you show old Tube Maps for context and to show how it evolves. For an "outsider" who is not too familiar with all the tube stations, it would be great if you could highlight what you are explaining when showing the maps fullscreen. On a phone, I have no chance of finding out where I need to look at. Anyway, keep up the good work!

I'm not from London (not even from the UK !), but two things I'd note : 1. The map is... pretty full, as you said in another video. 2. There's the TfL Rail & Tube services map. 3. TfL is about to operate services well beyond M25. Based on these two, I'd argue for a "London" local map and "Greater Greater London" map... one for stuff well within the M25 and the other for stuff up to well outside the M25 but is a significant outer suburb for London (ie. Reading, Medway valley, Southend, even Brighton). One would replace (or augment) the current TfL map, one would be an entirely new map that shows all the opportunity people have for their journey to London.

I'm more than willing to race you from Kentish town to Elephant and Castle!

So I went to London this weekend (fantastic city btw), and when I took the Tube map it felt too crowded. Personally, I didn't need to know that the Overground, the DLR, the Trams, "TfL Rail", Thameslink, etc. exist, or even the outermost parts of the Tube, but I understand this is important both for the destination of trains and for people actually going there. So what I propose is to have multiple maps: one that is available at all stations (both from TfL and from the National Rail) in which all services (Tube, Overground, DLR, Crossrail, National Rail, etc.) are shown, and "specialised" maps showing only the Tube, the DLR, Overgound, Crossrail, or the Trams. Those could be available at TfL stations, with less maps of the services not going through that station. So, for example, at Stratford there would be many more maps of the Tube, Overground, DLR, Crossrail, and National Rail than maps of the Trams, while in stations like Burnt Oak or Hornchurch there would be many Tube maps and some of the Overground. This way, the Tube map would be much less congested, becoming much mor user and tourist-friendly, and all services would have their own map, either with all other rail services (great for efficient travel), and on their own. Also, TfL already has made all the maps: tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-rail - The one with all rail services tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/dlr - The map of the DLR, which shows routes better than the actual Tube map tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/overground - The map of the Overground tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/tram - The map of the Trams, which as the DLR one shows better the routes tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/tfl-rail - And the map of TfL rail, which now is a bit pointless but when Crossrail is finished, and specially if Crossrail 2 is built and/or Thameslink taken over by TfL; it could be very handy So no, Thameslink should not be added to the Tube map, or at least to this "version" of it

2:24 so weird to see massive gaps in the old maps such as between Highbury and Islington and Stratford, and also from Hammersmith to Paddington and from Richmond to Shepherd's Bush.

I agree....it is utter confusion! Thanks for bringing this up! Great video Geoff!

It takes a couple minutes longer with the Northern line, but considering that the National Rail station is a bit further away from Elephant and Castle itself than the tube station, it evens out a little

Thameslink and Crossrail (especially with upcoming Crossrail 2) is clearly turning into an RER style network, it makes perfect sense for the three to be operated together

I see no reason to not have Thameslink, with a "continued beyond" symbol on the extremes where it leaves the Greater London area. What I would like to see is the Overground, organized into individual lines, so it is much easier to understand, making Overground the mode, just like Crossrail is the mode.

Don't get rid of the tube map, Just add a second map with the majority of London services and place it right next to the tube map in stations, Call it something like Extended tfl map

If TFL take over Thameslink, they would undoubtedly do a better job - but, should services to Brighton, Horsham, Peterborough etc be run by the London Mayor and the assembly when it’s well outside their jurisdiction!

Possible answer: Only services valid for oyster/contactless for the whole length are shown on the map. So if you can use contactless at Reading for Crossrail, fair game. If Thameslink wants to appear, roll out contactless to all the stations and it goes on. I expect TFL gets a cut of fares if they are handled via the Oyster/contactless payment system, so it that would help with the argument over it being a competing company.

The last time Thameslink services appeared on the tube map was in February 2003. This was when the Central and Waterloo & City lines were closed due to the 1992 stock being modified after the Chancery Lane derailment. The Thameslink was put there as sort of compensation for the Central line being closed.

it feels like this came out yesterday 🥰 Edit: changed emoji smh

Thameslink occupies the same niche as Crossrail, a commuter railway service with "tube-like" frequency running through Zone 1. So it would make a lot of sense to fold Thameslink into TfL as it is basically already a north-south Crossrail line.

Isn’t it interesting how on old tube maps, the lines under construction are shown but we don’t have this today for Crossrail?

Things are becoming much more blurred now. Until TfL was created, LT rail services were very definitely separate from BR and kept that way on the maps. Only connections were shown, such as Thameslink and the GN Electrics line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park. The original plan for Crossrail was for it to be a BR service, but with track/tunnel/stations shared with LT, running two separate services. LT Tube only running in the main zones. But then Ken Livingstone wanted an orbital rail service and created the Overground, incorporating the East London Line into the North London Line, after the extension of the East London Line (as a Tube line) had been announced. So now the map's becoming complicated and really, there should be two now, the Tube Map and an Overground Map, that should include the National Rail services such as Thameslink. The Overground services need to be separated into their own named lines as well, so having it's own map will free it up to do so.

Is there a Beck style map of all rail services in London? That could be quite a useful thing to have, even if it might need to be the size of a small paperback.

Hi Geoff, love the videos. Did you know that when TfL took over the Overground and changed the old BR double arrow symbols for LT roundels, that TfL was acting illegally ? (When BR was privatised @ 1993, it was agreed that all BR stations (and new ones like Tweedbank in Scotland) would display the BR double arrow symbol so that passengers would know what stations BR tickets were valid on.) I bet that was a bit of consumer info that you missed ! LOL.

Let the selected lines that continues outside London end with arrows where the map (TfL) ends. If we are looking at maps at the website they might as well put all local transport on it and have boxes that you can tick on/off types of transport (Buses, Tram, DLR, Tube, Overground, Crossrail, Commuter trains)

The Tokyo metro map is like that, it has a number of different privately owned railway lines on it and is a full sized page.

Also, strictly speaking, the line from Moorgate to Finsbury Park is mostly a "tube" line, as in the trains go through cylindrical tunnels, it's just, since October of 1975, hasn't been a "Tube" line. Most of what's in tunnel still has 4th rail, although out of use. And they still, or at least did until recently, use the Tunnel Telephone system, inherited from the Tube (There's also Tunnel Telephone wires still in Overground's East London tunnels)

The arguement you make about the Oyster services map raises another point. At some point, that switched from the more helpful "which London terminals do these trains stop at" (which is the version you showed on screen at 5:28), to the less helpful "which trains companies run trains to various places", and that just added meaningless colour mess to the map, and made it harder to see where you need to go to get somewhere outside of London...

You used to get a paper map called London Connections which showed everything in London. Haven't seen them in years

Also can we really call the old cut and cover lines (Metropolitian/ Distric Line ect.)tube lines since they don't move though tubes.

Thameslink definitely belongs on the "Tube" map. I think of the Tube map more as a high-frequency getting around London map - and on that basis, Thameslink is the fastest way to do several north-south journeys. A lot of the Overground and suburban routes don't provide the same high-frequency convenience, so I'd take them off/not add them. They'd still be on the larger London Connections map (as I know it - Geoff used a different name) though, and calling it an Oyster/contactless map would make a lot of sense!

I think TFL need another map for all those lines like overground and whatnot but maybe add additional interchange roundel for national rail stations to show that you could connect to those and maybe a very faint line for Thameslink services so that people know the line is in the "zone" but not quite.

I live near Washington DC. Here, CharmCard (Baltimore) and SmartTrip (DC) cards are used interoperable on: Washington Metro, MetroBus, VRE, MARC, Baltimore Metro, Baltimore Light Rail, and 10 other regional bus services. One region, one form.of payment for all transit services. VERY easy. Just make sure enough is in your card to cover the service you're using. Oyster should work like that for at least Greater London, if not the larger region IMHO. We here in Washington-Baltimore want more cities' transit to intereroperate for contactless payment.

I can't believe that the 1998 (or 1999) tube map looks like the tube map we have now!

Yes, it should be there. The distinction between TfL and non-TfL services, and even between underground and normal railroad, is very interesting for railway nerds like us watching these videos. But the key idea is to allow people to go where they want to quickly and efficiently, regardless of mode. Thameslink is functionally the same kind of thing as Crossrail, and to an extent Overground. For both of those, the fact that people don't know that it's a rail line instead of a tube line is really feature, not a bug. It's about extending the easily understood, frequent and reliable model of tubes to other services. There's no part in this that does not apply to Thameslink (except for reliable right now...). It might make sense to change the small folding map so that it only shows zones 1-3 (or something), with a big map with everything also available.

Given increasing numbers of passengers have Smartphones, perhaps in addition to the paper map, there could be an App version of the Oyster map, with the option to show any combination of 'layers' of services (Underground, Overground, Wombling Free, DLR, Thameslink, Crossrail) - maybe even a journey planner where you tell it where you want to go in London (using Location Services to determine where you currently are), and it shows you the top 3 combinations of routes to get there (maybe even including buses and walking).

You're right Geoff! It was more than 20 years ago! Even those passengers ac-complaining Thameslink and other rail services cause big time! Like Cancellations, Delays, and Destruction Services with Summer Railways Timetable of May 2018 - are hell for all of us as we face all our nightmares!

Well the oyster map has arrows for further destinations but within/around London (Gatwick and the like), all rail services can be navigated by oyster-card. If TfL were to take over Thameslink I'd hope I could get from the end of the line to London with an oyster-card.

Geoff i was just wondering, have you been around West Croydon up to roughly Epsom since the changes? The auto announcer's keep calling the southern services Thameslink services, its kinda odd right?

The tube map has always been a quick guide to London travel links. It should be a public service guide containing every link the visitor needs

I have a large 1999 version of Central London Journey Planner (I think it was put inside the carriage) which interestingly, has both the Thameslink (and Northern City Line) and Jubilee Line Extension

“TfL Journey Planner” for future pocket maps? Then ALL services - Tube, DLR, Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, London Overground, Thameslink - could feature. Oh and yes, we DO want a pocket size fold out Map....unless you want to create a smartphone app for us, Geoff...

The Thameslink is essentially an express version of the Northern line between Elephant & Castle/London Bridge to Kentish Town, however the line belongs to a rival network: Thameslink itself so TfL won’t put it on the map for that reason, they don’t want naive tourists or visitors to know of a faster version of the Northern line that isn’t operated by TfL it’ll mean loss of revenue, Crossrail is different since it is TfL owned so they, yes Crossrail is a express version of the Central and District lines, but it’s not as extensive, as you said Thameslink goes to loads of places far beyond London, Crossrail’s furthest point is Reading, I think Thameslink should have their own rival map: The T-Link Map and display the map in TfL stations.

I wish Waterloo East was still shown on the map, linking with Southwark station.

Yes, it is on the Map now

2:18 - When the Stratford to North Greenwich section of the Jubilee Line opened, it seemed like such an oddity - a line that just took you from one armpit to another armpit! A bit like having an airline between Scunthorpe and Tashkent.

Greg, if Thameslink were to be added, would you then not to have to includes the SouthWestern, Southern. etc. services that are in the Travel Zones you can tap in & out of? With showing the Elizabeth Line (sorry..) on the map, will this be run by TFL? Great vid, as ever.

Great angle with rail map in shot. Nice to see you're an OS map fan!

I always used to like the old "London Connections" map that showed every rail service in London. That map was also good in that it had two sides: one side for the dense services in the core, and the other side for the outer suburban rail services. Perhaps they should bring that back, rather than trying to squeeze everything onto one single map?

Me: Sees Aldwych Branch on the thumbnail ready. Also me: *instant click*

Hello. You’ve just reminded me. What app / map did you use for the ‘All the stations’ series on your phone? Cheers.

i kinda feel like for a lot of people these maps aren't necessary, because apps like google maps make planning a journey so much easier

Great video Geoff and Thameslink should appear on the map as it goes to two airports and other key places.

It is obvious that Thameslink is part of the Central London Rail network, and should be on the "Tube" map. If we take Paris as an example, Thameslink and Crossrail/ Elizabeth Line are equivalent to the RER lines A and B. RATP (Paris City Transport) show both lines which they operate together with lines C, D, and E which are operated by SNCF (the French national rail operator). RATP produce a Metro (Paris city) Map and a larger regional Paris map showing all commuter lines. On the Metro map, the RER lines are just shown as going further out with an arrow. It is not rocket science Crossrail is based on the Paris RER system we just have to look at how that is reflected on their maps.

Yes, the Thameslink core (Elephant to Kentish Town or even West Hampstead seeing that it's an important interchange) should be on the Tube map. It's ridiculous to exclude such a key service from the map which many visitors rely on, but include services to the likes of Cheshunt instead. When Crossrail opens, a key interchange station will be Farringdon. Incidentally the Moorgate to Finsbury Park line should also be on the map (it has a key interchange with the Overground at Highbury & Islington), but that's another topic!

0:53 why doesn't the map show thameslink services to West Hampstead. Is it because the station hadn't opened yet or is it because the two sttions are relatively far away from eachother

Is there anywhere I can buy that all the stations poster behind Geoff in the video?

I wouldn't mind if they got the stations to a certain point and then just had an arrow that would read, for example, "Towards Bedford", outside of the London region

Well, it's an open secret that TFL want to add all the suburban services out of the remaining London terminals to the Overground network. The passengers using them have a higher customer satisfaction than Southern or GWR for example. I believe that the Overground should have its own bespoke map highlighting where passengers can change for Crossrail, tube or DLR, otherwise the map would be incomprehensible. The tube map works as itself, a topographical map of the underground. However with the DLR, Overground and soon the whole of Crossrail added, the map will be so cramped that something will have to give

Geoff you’re channel is awesome

I've got the 1988 Journey Planner on my phone as a case but it's got Stratford international on it.

Unfortunately Geoff, you made a minor geographical error. You said ‘to the north towards Bedford, Horsham and Peterborough’, however Horsham is south of London and you take the branch line just south of Three Bridges station to get there. For the maps, I think every scheduled service to/from/in London should be put on what is currently called ‘the Tube Map (the TfL map)’ and that the companies could pay money to appear on the map (like advertising). Alternatively, it could be like a rail services map just for London in any case where all the train companies work together to create the map with TfL. For example, if you were travelling from St Pancras (northbound beyond Bedford), the map could read ‘East Midlands Trains - Sheffield/Nottingham’. Another example, if you travelling from Victoria station the line to Brighton could read ‘Southern - Brighton’.

Why not have two maps? One map for tube, DLR and tram where the mainline trains (Crossrail, Thameslink, Overground) are only shown as thin lines without stations, and one for the big boy trains where it's the other way around. I saw this in Hanover and found it pretty clever.

And on the 1998 map aldwych was shown plus shoredich nut there abbandoned right?

I for one am surprised to discover that Thameslink isn't a TfL service. I've been treating Thameslink as if it's the Tube for years. I'm also in agreement that if TfL were to take Thameslink over, that it should come into the same category as Crossrail and Crossrail 2 (whenever that happens), since it is the same type of service running on (roughly?) the same type of trains. And then of course they should appear on the map!

In April 1999, my eyes bled from the gap between the Victoria and Central lines.

Tom Marshall is pure banter

I'm not a Londoner, I'm not even British. But as someone who has lived in New York City, I will say it is mighty convenient when all of these services are indexed and mapped accordingly. Maybe it shouldn't be TFL's job to draw up the tube maps.

One thing I’m stuck here wondering is why Crossrail (or LizRail as I like to call it) is not just part of the Overground. Does it have to do with train length? However, to fit with the growing services (TFL taking over GoVia would be nice), I think that the overground should not be split up into many ‘Railines’, and they could still call Crossrail the Elizabeth Line, But they should modify it to be the ‘Elizabeth Railine’ instead. Although I would prefer TFL to make it the ‘Readfield’ railine or the ‘Readwood’ railine (Reading to Shenfield or to Abbey Wood).

Last year I found it annoying that I was charged more to use TFL rail from Heathrow to the city than I was charged on the tube.

The Thameslink quality of service is a different matter, but it should be on the map as it's one of the rare modes that goes through the centre of London without being the tube.

Did I miss the poll? Istr probably wrongly that city thameslink is the only station in zone 1 that doesn’t have a corresponding tube service. So a tourist wouldn’t know how to get to it using the TFL map.

I thought it made sense to add Thameslink to the Tube map and not to take it off -- it's included for information as it's a rail link that runs underground and connects Blackfriars, Farrington and King's Cross (as was, now St Pancras) and it connected to the original Moorgate-King's Cross branch line (now closed) which ran alongside the Metropolitan Line. It doesn't make sense to include it all the way to Bedford or Brighton, just across central London. I'm not in favour of including every TfL rail line (e.g. the old Great Eastern suburban line), just the Underground and a few connecting rail services in and around central London (hence the inclusion of the old GN Electrics from Moorgate to Finsbury Park, which used to be an Underground line).

2:41 JUBILEE BOY IS RUNNING

I've always liked and used the all area Tube and Rail map, even easier now with PDF versions, it used to be called The London Connections Map, I have some early versions. With Gatwick and Shenfield now under Oyster, it makes sense to have a combined map as standard.

@Geoff Marshall at 01:45 you made a mistake. This map you’re reviewing is from 1998, not 1989

If TfL took over Thameslink, it would be logical for it to be part of the Crossrail network. The Elizabeth Line would 'cross' London from west to east, and the Thameslink line would 'cross' London from north to south. They would both have a purple roundel and would be shown on maps by the purple parallel lines. However, since the whole of Crossrail as it stands today is now branded the 'Elizabeth Line', how do you think they would integrate the north-south line into the system? I would propose that they replace all Elizabeth Line roundels for Crossrail ones, keep the Elizabeth Line name for the east/west route and give the north/south route a different line name under the Crossrail mode. But then again, North London Line is never signposted on the Overground.

As someone that lives on the Thameslink line, I'd say it should be, especially as they're still arguing for the Oyster zone to be extended out from Elstree & Borehamwood to Luton Airport Parkway, and would probably make things a lot easier for passengers/tourists arriving at Luton. Also, Horsham definitely isn't north, sorry

No, shouldn’t be on the tube/TfL map. Thameslink is just connecting up a series of Suburban railways north of London to a series of Suburban railways south of London. I’d expect that the vast, vast majority of passengers on a Thameslink service from say, Peterborough, will have alighted before the train departs London Bridge - the train will be busy with other passengers it has picked up through the core that want to go on to Croydon or wherever - but as a mode it exists to reduce the requirement for terminus station space in London, there aren’t enough stops in the central section for it to serve as a mini metro line from London Bridge/Elephant to Kentish Town/Finsbury Park. With the possible exception of London Bridge there aren’t really any other feeder services where people would want to change *on* to Thameslink - most punters will already be on Thameslink services to get to the limits of what you could viably put on a Tube/TfL map. Crossrail/Elizabeth Line on the other hand has many more stations in its central section; and while it is also ultimately taking over the lions share of local Suburban services into Paddington/Liverpool Street, both stations will have sizeable majority of its passengers arriving on longer-distance services that terminate there and then changing onto Crossrail.

I suppose it’s where do you draw the line in including National Rail services on the map. I can understand Overground lines being included because while it’s a NR service, it’s confined within London and forms part of the London ‘metro’ rail network along with LU, tram and DLR services. However, with Crossrail services within the London area being included on the map perhaps the precedent has been set and that all NR services within London should be added, not just Thameslink. But how crowded would the map become! It’s already a bit full with Overground and Crossrail on it.

1:53 JUBILEE BOY IS BACK

For us non Londoner’s how is the Overground different from the underground apart from being over ground and with different stock? Are the services not offered as frequently? Are the trains longer?

There should be two maps. One with the underground, dlr and tram and other with overground, Crossrail and national rail services. On both maps you would still be able to see the connections between the routes on either map as the routes on shown on each other map will in overground orange parallel colour

New office position works. Having the map behind you fits. Perhaps they should return to the journey planner name for the foldouts. Personally I'd prefer it on the map, but not being there due to different ownership does make sense.

If the Elizabeth Line is going to be put on the map, logic dictates Thameslink HAS to go on the map