Vote now: kzfaq.infoUgkxNQz6sUUDcWm4r97t76XXaCGHlRZJZgqr

How to buy genuine original keycaps: Step 1: Be lucky enough to hear about the group buy while it's running Step 2: pay hundreds of dollars upfront Step 3: wait literal years for the keycaps to be manufactured and sent I'm fine paying hundreds of dollars for my plastic, but I'm not waiting actual fucking years holding out hope that MAYBE they'll do a second run. If I like the color scheme and I like the novelties, am I supposed to go buy a completely different set I don't even want, just out of principle? I would want to pay the premium for the higher quality keycaps, but I literally can't. I guess I could go pay 2x the original price for a second hand set, but doing that doesn't support the creator any more than buying $60 clones

Pretty much agree with Shirogane's take. If your product doesn't even exist anymore and I can't buy, I'm sorry, I just can't care thatuch if clones get made. You put a product into the market and then get mad when clones are mad. If they're that big of an issue, maybe the keyboard community needs to rethink how they operate, especially as it increases in size every day.

One aspect that is not addressed is the fact that there is a large portion of your audience who purchase clones, who would not be GMK, SP, etc customers anyways due to the pricing delta. Example - buying a knockoff Gucci bag. That person more than likely purchased because they love the design but cannot afford, or justify, the price of a real one. Therefore, they aren't a stolen customer. I would say many times, the clone and authentic markets are not stealing from each other, but rather exist in separate spaces. I do think stolen art work is a no-go from me though. That is where I draw the line.

Clones like keycaps exist in many hobbies that I am a part of so I've had this debate for a long time. First of all, I will never ever support counterfeits, which are clones trying to pass themselves off as the real thing, and scam customers. With that out of the way, I would say that a lot of people don't consider that even though buying clones won't pay recognition to the artist or designer, sometimes that's not possible in the first place. If I wanted a GMK Darling/Mizu set, I would have to pay hundreds of dollars for a used set, since it is not being produced and I have no way of knowing if it will be produced again. When I buy aftermarket, none of that money goes to the original designer. Once the product is sold and no longer made, it doesn't matter if people buy clones or real sets second hand. If a keycap set has been run and is no longer being produced, I couldn't care less if there are clones made. You can't buy the real thing anyways, and I'm not going to tell newcomers to spend $500 on a base set of Darling from a guy scalping the set on reddit. I've always had the thought that if someone has the money and the time for the real thing, they will get the real thing. Someone who doesn't have the money or the time, and buys clones, was never going to be a customer in the first place. There's no one who can afford GMK sets and buys clones just because they're cheaper. As long as someone is EDUCATED, if they turn to clones they were never going to buy a GMK set in the first place. They're not loosing customers, they were never going to be customers to begin with. You can't be mad if people are buying clones of discontinued products, end of story. Yes, I do agree that there are many fantastic affordable sets in the hobby, much of which I will recommend to many people before I suggest clones.

My stance on clones relies heavily on availability and disclosure. Selling clones of a set like GMK Red Samurai I disagree with, as you can buy the official sets on Drop right now. However, many sets run for 1 or 2 group buys and they're done. If you want an official set you're going to have to pay mechmarket prices which don't go to the creator regardless, all you're doing is spending more money and changing who profits off it - the reseller from the clone manufacturer. The way I see it, when the group buy is done, the designer has made their money from the set. I still whole heartedly believe you should disclose that they are clones, just educate the customer that they are reproductions and that the official set may go back on group buy in the future and/or the designers name so they can choose later to support the official work. Hipyo's Rolex analogy was good, but I see it more like emulating retro games. Super Nintendos aren't in production and if the developer of the game you want to play aren't offering any way to play it legally (like the Mega Man collections) you're gonna have to buy on platforms like eBay where the rights holders are getting no profit regardless.

I always found it bizarre how there were/are people in the community that believe copying a color palette is somehow theft. Talk to any normal person outside of the hobby and they'll probably say how utterly insane "owning" a colorway is.

I completely agree with Hipyo take on the color palette. I really see no problems having the same or similar colors on the keycaps, but if the clones feature the same novelties artwork and branding themselves with the same name as the original then it become problematic and i wouldn't personally buy those. That said i do understand the appeal for some of the clones when the price of the originals are nuts.

The clone keycap market serves to prove a few things. 1) That Keycaps aren't that small niche market anymore and are no longer what you would call a novelty item. 2) It proves that there is enough capacity to produce these keycaps without having the very long lead times. 3) The knock-off market can be also classified as competition and this shows just how much insane profit margins some manufacturers put on keycaps, where as on clones we can see what a cost based margin is like, and it's almost atleast half of the retail price, this should encourage manufacturers to lower their level of perceived prices for these items that are no longer rare or niche. It's always a hard conversation because each sector may have different motivations. Customers will always take bias on the side that gives them good value for money. Designers will always protect their brand from copies and will always stand firm on authenticity. Retailers will, for their survival, lean on items that drives sales. For the cloners, it's naive to say they are just out there to deceive and make something that passes for original. It's very rare to see stores or items that don't indicate that they are clones, if there are then those stores should be shut down. But there is an argument that maybe associated with the Originals vs Clones that we see in Apple vs. Xiaomi... See, Xiaomi has been well known to make their phone designs very similar iphones, but do we ever see apple sue them. The point is that Apple and Xiaomi don't directly compete in the same regions, and have thus coexisted and grew in their own sectors. But the thing about xiaomi is that they then evolved to become a brand of their own despite their shady roots. So the takeaway for retailers is this, if you are a store, that has partnered or stocked with a particular brand that actually caters to the market or region you are in, then don't carry clones of those designs. If you have clones of other keycaps that do not cater to the regions of your store, and you don't hold supply of their originals, they keep holding those clones as you are not interfering with the market of the original manufacturers anyway, you are doing the consumers a favor by making such a thing available to otherwise inaccessble regions. If in any scenario, that those companies expand and they now cater to the region and can supply to your store and reaches out to partner woth you, then it's time to stop. But that's all excusable behavior in these trying times, in truth, much is expected from different sectors of this hobby. These clone fabs have proven that they could infact create a product that is near identical if atleast passable in quality, then they could either make their own designs, or reach out to the originals to have their "clones" be adopted as a regional variant of the design, and get recognized officially, and the proceeds get divided accordingly. These original manufacturers too have to recognize that it's slowly becoming less and less of a niche market, and adjust their prices accordingly, because clones prove that they maybe indeed carrying too much margins, or they're putting a fixed markup price on Reseach and Design, even if those costs have already been broken even after selling a few batches. Alternatively, they could adopt the clones as regional variants and thus regulating them and these the designers get their cut out of the "clones" as well. Retailers will always be pressed in the middle and will always strive hard to work for legitimate products, or at the very least be transparent about what they're selling and not passing a clone for an original. As for us consumers, well, there will always be a price to pay for shiny things, but be educated that diamonds aren't not a rare stone, and is driven by child labor, so be wise about expensive things that may not be of sound value. But if you find that something is of good value for money even if it a bit more pricey then pay the price for that quality, usually these are from orignal manufacturers. But if we are still poor, then we really can't be choosers.

Honestly the things going for clones are the price, availability and accessibility. Especially if you want to cater to the wider crowd, having these "clones" (or "reproductions" as some call, as the colour-ways are no longer run) would greatly help them. It would turn potential customers off often especially when they are not being run, or they are in GB-state with a 1-year lead-time, being sold as in-stock with a big mark-up, or even being scalped on 2nd-hand market. I have an issue with thievery, not cloning, as what HipyoTech mentioned. For cloning, they just recreated the colourways, and sells it with the same name with the set it was based on. People can find these easily especially when they were looking for these keycap sets online. I genuinely feel it’s fine especially if the set is no longer ran. Sure, people might feel robbed of their exclusivity for owning the originals but the hobby should be more inclusive, not exclusive. At the bare minimum, the keycap colourway can still be attributed to the original creator of the set. Though for novelties, only if they’re licensed to the creator. Thievery, that’s when the manufacturers copied the colourways AND novelties, and/or markets it under another name. That’s just bad in every possible way, and I think it’s rather obvious in a way. To me, in Singapore, most people who are new to the hobby would probably easily find these clone manufacturers either by recommendation or just searching online. I don't see an issue since people would easily get them anyway. BUT what I do hope that in working with the clone manufacturers, make new and original colour-ways. Expand the hobby than just running GMK sets. I feel like the quality argument can’t work anymore nowadays, even these other manufacturers got keycaps that are better feeling than recently-ran GMK sets. My 1.25u right shift, 2.25u left shift and stepped caps came shiny from GMK.

Leave it to Hipyo to finally ask the question that was burning in my head for more than half the video: "What is the definition of 'clone'?" Without that premise being clear, people's stances become muddled and inconsistent.

Gabe Newell quote about piracy does apply to many fields, including keycaps. It's a service issue, if you want to beat clones then provide a better service than what clone manufacturers do. Which is in most cases not the price but availability.

The biggest problem with original sets is that most of them are availabe only in GB. Tbh GB is a very anti consumer practice. When keycaps are excellent quality i'd say it's fine, but this is my main concern. You have no idea of what to expect. I bought a few sets and they were great... but. I bought milkshake keycaps in a GB spent 140 euro waited half a year and recieved shitty keycaps. Yeah these are terrible for that price is unacceptable every single keycap longer than 2u is crooked and even some 1u are twisted so they don't align. If it was 20 euro ok sure but 140 come on... I saw many people on Discord complaining about this too so I'm not the only one. The worst part is that you can't even do anything about it because GB cannot be returned. I cannot justify it only for the sake of being "fair buyer". If keycaps are in stock sure I can buy it but if they are in a GB i won't buy it at all or buy clones. Sorry. We cannot put all the resposibility on buyers! Keycap manufacturers and vendors should take more responsibility because in the end it's their responsibility. Not ours. Many vendors nowadays have resources to sell it in stock it's just easier ans safer for them to run GB and that is not acceptable.

i agree with the take that if a set is qualified as a clone, in the storefront there should be information about what the original is

I support clone keycaps because of the limited run nature of GMK and other "big keycap" corpos. In my case, I missed out on a lot of group buys due to getting COVID. Certain sets are selling for twice or even triple the GB price on r/mechmarket. That's literal insanity. More designers need to consider the "budget" brands and manufacturers to put pressure on "big keycap" to lower prices to a more reasonable level. Also, Binge hitting the nostalgia button making me miss the old days of CM Storm boards and Frosty Flake controllers lol.

Are the keycaps of good quality and they don't blatantly rip off artists while claiming to be their own originals? Sell them!

i think if i'm making the point of physically going to a store, it's likely because i'm not 100% certain on what i'm looking for. in that sense, maybe not selling clones (since more affordable options are becoming more common now) might be feasible. as a customer, i would probably choose from whatever is available, and if i was new to the hobby, i couldn't really want something if i didn't know it existed in the first place. that being said, personally, i don't see an ethical issue with clones of keycap sets if they're no longer being made or only being sold secondhand. at that point, my money isn't going to the people who originally designed and created them.

One thing missing here is designs that aren't owned by the "designer". There is no "Dolch" clone for example. Dolch was a computer manufacturer and every Dolch set, even GMK, could be called a "clone" of Dolch's design. There is zero issue with selling something like that. There's also designs that are, let's face it, basic. Your purple text on black cap set isn't special or unique to you forever. Someone else can use the color purple. I also can't feel a bit bad about buying a clone of a set that hasn't been sold for 4 years. Me buying a used legit set for $500 off eBay financially supports the designer just as much as buying the clone.

I guess my main question is why designers can't work directly with the clone manufactures? If the "authentic" manufactures require several months to over a year to produce and deliver a set of keycaps, but the "clone" manufactures are able to keep their sets in stock and reasonably priced, then unless I'm missing something, it sounds like the authentic manufactures just suck and shouldn't be supported. Or to put it another way, why do designers seem to exclusively work with terrible manufacturers?

Well i am not willing to spend that kind of money in GB and than wait for months, even a year. Keycaps are very much expensive, often more, than keyboard itself. So if the quality of clones is OK by the buyer, than yes, take the clones. But if you have the money, you should definitely buy original set to support the company or artist.

Hipyo Tech made a good video about keycaps, GMK and Group Buys. I'm sorry but as someone who entered the hobby about a year ago, seeing anything good just out of stock, a single run, praying for a second run group buy that won't deliver for another year? No thanks. I've got everything ready for a new board... except the Group Buy keycaps that probably won't deliver until next year. Keycaps and their availability are a significant problem.

Wasn't there a thing when GMK Olivia designer gave approvals for a clone manufacturer for their Olivia clones? So what if other designers followed did the same thing? I'm not fully sure if it was like that but I remember a video somewhere about the clones thingy

Taking into account the various creators interviewed I agree with Shirogane the most as once they are already sold out and you aren’t looking to make anymore such as a r2, then clones are alright. I personally won’t buy clones cos the quality of the originals do resonate with me (GMK better font yadayadayada). Also, hot take: can’t copyright colors or a combination of colors. Cloning novelties I cannot get behind as it’s like stealing art.

As the community and demand grows, economies of scale will become more and more relevant, which will hopefully phase out any and all group buys along with clones purely based on accessibility and value. Currently to the average consumer there aren't enough innovation or quality difference between clones and originals that justify the value of the originals.

considering the majority of designer keycap sets run a groupbuy once and then they can never be bought again without going to third parties, I'd say clones are harmless bc the designers weren't going to be making any more money off of those sales anyway.

Do they meet your quality standards? Yes:Yes No:No.

One thing I am surprised I haven't heard from the video is the option to add some small amount to the price of clones to pay the original artist. While I understand that this provides validity to the clones that creators may not want it can still provide the creators with money for the work that they put in while still supplying beginners with a keycap set that doesn't break the bank.

The way to go is kinda what wuque did, they found a manifacturer for PBT, and they got approval from original GMK designers, so now they produce pbt variant of gmk sets, which are not stolen. Either do that, or design few of your own, and get them to produce it

I don't own a full-service custom keyboard retail store so I'm probably not coming from the correct perspective, but we are completely different in terms of none-GB keycap availability than we were just a year ago. There are so many great none-clone options out there right now that you don't have to wait an eternity or spend a fortune on. NicePBT, NovelKeys PBT, various GMK sets on Drop, PBTFans (they're on fire), DMK extras. Could you store not simply carry some of these in your inventory instead of the clones? Many, many other retailers do without having to resort to carrying clones.

Remember kids: Pirating all Adobe software is justified, also intellectual property in the tech space is a fallacy.

I've been into the hobby for awhile now myself, stalking ever since 2017 and made big holes in my wallet too. In my opinion, pricing is honestly not the biggest factor in this discussion. Availability is. Take Apple's products as an example. They almost always upcharge with each release cycle and yet crazy demand persists (yea I know branding and trends matter too, but it doesn't change my point). Speaking purely from the overall consumer's perspective, there will always be those who want the ultimate budget option, those who want something nicer but not spend more than they can justify, and those who are solely in it regardless of prices. Apple provides all three. The mech keyboard space does too. The difference comes in availability. Apple has each cycle of products stocked for about 2-3 years, which is PLENTY time for consumers to decide whether it's something they wanna get. Even after that, the aftermarket exists, and baring collector pieces, sell for cheaper than MSRP most of the time. All this while quality still remains top notch and clones can never get anywhere close. It's why they can't be competed with, like it or not (again, not mentioning other factors like branding, trends, lock-in, HUGE supply chain, etc.) The mech keyboard space is 100% opposite of this. Extremely limited availability timeframe (often limited quantity as well), an aftermarket that guarantees MUCH higher resale prices, relatively accessible and sometimes good (subject to opinion) QC compared to originals that all leads to a thriving clone industry. Long story short, I get the stance from the creators, but with all that rambling above, its no wonder why clones are so prevalent right now and getting better as time progresses. Just my 2 cents! Edit: Honestly, if we can have more of something like GMK Red Samurai's availability, then clones just can't compete anymore.

Plastic being hundreds of dollars is really stupid. If these designers aren't happy that people are copying their designs, maybe they should fix their business model.

any sneakerheads here? virgil abloh once said, if they make your fakes, you've made it !!!!

As a french liking keyboards (maybe not a real enthusiast per se) finding the right set of ISO-FR keycaps sets is a real challenge and sometimes clone is my last resort

Like many in the comments have pointed out, I think the big keycap manufacturers need to change the way the sales method is done. GB sales is really inconvenient for consumers. No way am I paying scalper prices for an original set (that i missed out on and cannot buy) and no way will I choose a different colourway just to "support original". The presence of counterfeit goods is really not the fault of the consumers. It, in my opinion is 100% on the manufacturers/creators. If they wanted to constantly be able to rake in profits, then stop making it a GB only. I would assume that production capacity is limited hence the limited resources on keeping it on permanent production, then the manufacturers could I feel select those hot selling ones and continue production. As a store, I believe that properly informing consumers is the best way. Let them decide for themselves. The responsibility does not rest solely on the store. That said, blatant copies should not be supported. Just those that have similar colourways would be the best middle ground for now I guess. The KB community needs some changes on the method of sale. GBs really suck tbh.

My point is this: 1. Just like patents, there should be an expire time for designs to be completely public and accessible to everyone. It will be unrealistic to stop someone from cloning a design from a long time ago. The timeframe of expiration though is a completely different question and I can't give any suggestions. 2. If you want to grow your store and your brand, selling these keycaps are just against your long term business. So even it's just a "minor cloning" without novelites, you should know that a noticeable portion of the community and keycap designers will not support you. I don't think as a growing business based on hobby, this is a right path to choose. That's why I don't think a survey will help, since this is your business and you should consider what is best for you. 3. Why not spend the extra time to either contact the designer to collab on a R2, or hire your own designers to do your own sets? Even to the very least, ask the designers for their consents. In the end, it's about your reputation in the business. And when you want to build up a brand, don't let short-term profits damage that reputation.

Just as piracy is a service issue, not price, so is the issue of clones, which operates in a rather similar fashion. Most people coming into the hobby are not cheap, at least not in the traditional sense. They at least has the understanding that they would have to pay, often reasonable amount higher than your typical off the shelf. Biggest problem with most "original" keycaps is inaccessibility. Besides the obvious group buy keycaps, many keycaps sets and profiles are locked behind specific vendors (like drop), specific sites, or some international main vendor (with ridiculous shipping feeds/time) + small local vendors (that are basically not findable unless you're already at least knee deep into the community) It's why clones are so common place. Jump into any e-commerce platform, hit a few keywords, and boom, u get them. If even stores like Mecha who are so well connected are having issues with stocking enough non-clones to make good business, what does it say about the state of keycaps for the average newcomer? The second issue is waittime. An enthusiast with a couple of keyboards we can use probably has no issue waiting. A newcomer who just wants a solid new mechanical keyboard would not be happy to wait even a month with a half completed keyboard sitting in the house without keycaps. At least that's what I get from most friends trying to get boards. Clones bridge this timegap with their availability and part of the equation is due to low-cost and being very easily in-stock. It's not a issue that will go away any time soon imo. Which is why i am definitely ok with Mecha carrying clones. That said, there is no conflict in also doing stuff to help reduce the demand for clones by making original sets more available, and more accessible. You guys got the biggest platform in the community here afterall

Sell clones but remove the novelties and make sure you inform customers that they are clones. It won’t completely appease the original designers, but no one really owns colors (unless you’re a multinational corporation or something), and you won’t get into too much trouble with stealing artwork if you don’t include novelties. I’m no lawyer though and I’m too busy travel to Singapore anytime soon anyway!

I'd consider myself an enthusiast and even then, I will always support and will always actively choose clones over GMK keycaps. Even if it means keycap designers will be screwed over out of incentives off their designs or whatever. Artificially created "hype" or "FOMO" in order to drive up value will always rub me the wrong way, even more so when they actively choose to limit plastic options to sh*tty ABS keycaps that will start to shine and look oily significantly quicker than PBT keycaps. Just the fact GMK keycaps are strictly only ABS will forever drive me away from them, price isn't even an issue, but if I'm paying for a premium, I would prefer something that's lasting instead of something that would lose its "freshness" within 6 months or maybe even less when it wasn't a stretch to say that you could end up waiting up to 2 years for your keycaps, only for it to last 6 months of use before looking gross and shiny? No thanks. Not to mention the changes they've made to the trays they were using, the new ones that means your keycaps may not look presentable upon unboxing, the one that you might end up finding a few keycaps scrambled into random positions when unboxing. Yes, the one that you may end up finding cockroaches/silverfish in because it's made of potato starch. When the whole point of these "Designer keycaps" was for it to be displayed and/or held onto and flipped for a higher value in the future when selling in the first place. For a company that's making you wait ridiculous amounts of time and charging you premium costs, limiting plastic options to the worst kind and packing your $200+ keycaps in trays that have zero longevity, it just ain't right. Don't want clones? The answer is always available and it's pretty damn simple, work with "clone makers" or other reputable keycap producers. PBT Noel, PBT Olivia etc. these exist. Ultimately the incompetence falls on the greed of a keycap designer for being adamant about sticking with GMK because GMK is the company that will pay them well because of how much they make. No respect and no sympathy for the ones that intentionally limit options as a result of their own greed. Either way, I already purchase my own parts and build my own keyboards, so perhaps I wouldn't fall under the category of "potential customers" for your retailer business. But I think this goes for anyone really that even if you refuse to carry clones, customers will just go look somewhere else for them. There are plenty of options readily available with relatively fast shipping time these days anyways. And hey, maybe I'm just an outlier or a contrarian that loves opposing others' opinions. But I think enthusiast "purists" that are hell-bent against clones and actively seek to create separation between themselves and "newcomers" that may or may not support clones, are a bunch of a-holes. It's a collection hobby, not a sport or a competition, and gate-keeping someone's options because YOU spent hundreds of dollars and waited YEARS for keycaps makes YOU, a piece of sh*t. Whether you were willing or are just coping with the idea that you /were/ willing to spend that money and wait that duration when the reality is that you just want other people to pay the price you paid or waste the time you wasted, you are NEVER entitled to telling people how THEY should enjoy THEIR hobby. The bottom line is that if designers simply reached out to manufacturers outside of just GMK and decided maybe to just, idk, work with these "Clones manufacturers" then they wouldn't even be clones anymore, they'd just be the designer's work but published from different manufacturers. It's not that difficult.

The way I see it is clones are only okay for sets that are not readily available or have no plan for re-runs. I can imagine not many people will want to wait for an unknown amount of time for another run on a particular set that they want. If the set I want has already ran, then too bad. I just use a cheap set like Domikey WoB while I wait for another GB or if I'm lucky, I can snag up a set from the extras. I think ideally if the clone manufacturers could start producing original design on keycaps then I don't think people would be so against it.

when the gmk vendor status?

U should check out the praxis im

so when will this community be big enough that there will be no more GBs and everything will be in stock and price will go down?

Yes but inform them

Or maybe you could encourage licensed designs. Sure you cant really copyright a color scheme but if you copy artisans and novelties then that is straight up IP theft, and designers should be paid for their work.

I'm missing why there's not much shitting on the companies producing the original keycap sets at either too low of a volume or selling for too high a price. It seems like that would be the first step to getting rid of clones which would be optimal imo.

yo gimme that good morning deskmat tho

I really wish that more designs came out from clone manufactures from artists who will get proper credit. I think the hobby has moved long past the need for Group Buys for every little thing. Yes, the higher end stuff like GMK can keep that model if they want but I don't think that everyone should push for GMK for their designs. Would be nice to see more budget friendly options out there, especially for new comers who may not understand any of this without doing significant research.

How much does the designer get from resellers? Nothing -if it's out of group buy already - buying clones does nothing to hurt the designer. First take is the best, designers should be looking to work with 'cloners' or to manufacture cheaper alternatives to their sets if they really care.

Personally I vote no. I definitely support you having affordable and available keycaps for your customers, but there are better ways to do it than directly supporting counterfeit goods. I would even support you buying sets from those same people who are making clones, just aim for the ones that are original to the best of your knowledge and abilities. Vote with your wallet. I definitely agree with multiple people in the video as well that if you do continue to sell them it should be made clear that they're clones and show the originals as well. I would feel bad if I bought a cheap set only to later find out that they were clones and I bought them unknowingly.

Designers should work with different manufacturers.. those who want gmk can get gmk.. those who want just the design can get the "clones". Not everyone can wait for 6 months or more or willing to spend premium. Ultimately, it's a win win for both parties.

desoldering tutorial pls !!

As a newer entry in the hobby, the whole "in stock" thing is a MAJOR issue. Sure part of it is cost... I don't feel like I want to pay $200-400 for a real deal set of a particular GMK I want for my build especially if it's just a colorway. A lot of the GMK colorways are pretty straightforward but the "genuine" sets are quite impossible to actually buy or have a long groupbuy period. If you want to build a new keeb, you can't do that going with a real GMK unless you're willing to pay scalper costs.

I'm new in the hobby and I'm French. Finding caps for french keyboard is just impossible -_-

Can Mecha give the original designers of the clones a cut? So that kinda gives back to the designers. Also give clone makers feedback to collab with designers.

clones are good for the consumer, but if i designed keycaps i would be pissed if someone was profiting off my design. Maybe maybe two sets at a time, a budget option and a premium set.

Nice vid

Why not offer both when possible? Users pick a clone, and you place a disclaimer like "For the original set of keycaps, click here"... And a disclaimer comparing the two and why It is a good idea to buy originals. The thing is, many clones exist because originals are not available. It is not always a price thing. For example, I bought a set of es-ANSI clones just because keycap makers don't seem to mind about foreign languages (ABNT2, es ANSI, es ISO, etc... the world speaks other languages besides English :P)

So many keycaps out in the market now which are available with great colours, the extra's are still coming in hot with a lot of the vendors. The options are better now than ever and designers DO NOT OWN COLOURS! You don't even own the novelities if you just ripped the icons from the internet. One question you should have asked is what about when consumers get keycaps which aren't great quality and colours are off? GMK Bread, Less Is Butter, etc Rolex Vs Cheaper Watch...Clones Vs GMK....Rolex has a lot more going on than coloured plastic but I get the comparison of entitlement.

I personally could not care less, even about the novelties. Yes it may be IP theft but if the set I want is already sold out and the only option is resellers, I see no problem at all since I am not harming GMK in any way if that is the case. If GMK has a problem with that, they can start actually selling the damn keycaps instead of GBing every single one of their products.

I prefer PBT over ABS, due to better sound, texture, and shine resistance. I own clones of my GMK sets and ended up prefering the clones over the original! If designers want to stop clone factories from stealing their work, they need to do as some designers already have (cannoncaps, nicepbt, NK) and link up with vendors/factories to create affordable PBT versions of their designs. It makes zero sense to me to insist on doing a GMK set when it is 2-3x more expensive, ABS, poor QC, terrible lead times, and high risk (just look at all the GMK sets that never got sent due to vendors exit scamming). And for people who prefer PBT like me, there is no real option other than clones!

As a store, you should still carry clones. Imagine a customer walking in, purchasing every single part they want and not being able to finish the board because the keycaps is in groupbuy that will only be fulfilled in 12 months.

omg Kaster "Kaster" Kaster

I can easily spend 200-300 for GMK keycaps but I just don’t

Sell the clone keycaps at cost

Informing the customer is great, but why not go further? You could contact the designers of the original sets, try to get their OK and arrange a royalty payment. Also, clones of sets with bright colors are generally atrocious. NK Vaporwave haunts my dreams.

its easy to say Drop the clones when in a way the are part of the problem. how many of them have run more than 1 or 2 group buys? when they do they limit the amount they produce and to make it "rare" or be valued more . As for wait time of 6 or 12 months why not order more than the group buy and have it stock oh you guys dont want to risk(invest) your own money to provide what the people want.

3:00 actually a funny bit

Maybe for now, just limit and reduce the one with novelties. That’s theft like Hipyo said. Colourways are in a grey area but for a store, it’s necessary I guess. How about reach out to other cheaper alternatives like Nicepbt, Xiami, 21kb etc

Clones aren't bad especially with all the big name manufacturers taking forever to produce. IMO best for the clones makers to credit back to the OG designers.

No. There are plenty of non clone keycap sets available these days.

Clones with the novelty copied imo are the hardest clones to justified, but those without and are just color ways are easier imo to buy. Also label them as clones, as andy nyguen made a video about glorious cloning and how they affects the community, mostly with making designers less likely to make sets

Yes, but just not from HK gaming.

for us budget consumer for me, I prefer clones because it's affordable and it can deliver us a same satisfaction as for someone who could buy the original. and i'm using clone gmmk wavez, it's not the same as the original but it gives the vibe out of it. or if I have the means or the sources of course I would buy the original but the fact is the clones are much easier to grab. Hipyo Tech is right thou.

You should definitely stop selling exact copies, but similar color schemes etc. I think it is fine.

Couldn't you just stock keycaps that aren't clones? BoW, WoB, Beige, or simple color combinations that aren't clear design rips? (clone manufacturers are also who I have the most issue with. Their attitude is rather distasteful from what I've seen.)

The individuals that talk around the 15min mark. The issue is if they drop clones completely they are creating a hole for a competitor to undercut them by carrying clones and creating a market for those that don't have as much money

clones ftw

Yes or I'll just go to someone who is for cheaper

Given the work and cost to the designers and that this hobby is a community, it's best to avoid clones. We're at a point where you can get decent and even good sets for middle of the road to even budget prices and even have then custom made and branded for your store. I would love to see some Mecha branded sets instead

Just double posting my comment from the poll but I also think saying you put it to a vote is a bit of a copout: There's plenty of cheap sets to sell without helping others profit off of theft. The hobby needs to change, but excusing theft of intellectual property because it's already happening is just amoral. That said I think colour combinations and font choices do not constitute IP. Just as it doesn't in the graphic design world. Putting a vibrant blue and white theme on your ABS caps isn't stealing. It's making a blue keycap. Things like novelties and icon mods are off limits though. I know someone is probably going to say that colour choices take time and consideration and are part of the process. Which they are. But if you can have two bathrooms with the same green subway tile, two houses with the same stone archway, and two websites with the same grey background and sans-serif font, then you can have two keycap sets with the same colours. But using the profile from GMK with the colours from a known set with the same legend placement and novelties? Yeah maybe don't sell that. So from me it's a no with a but.

literally no one is stopping theses designers from licensing their designs to 'clone' manufactures. Hell i think the manufacturers would welcome them with open arms and are willing to pay a small royalty fee. its not about the money. its about the prestige, clout and fame

I only buy clones lol sorry but idgaf. I love my boards but goddammit at the end of the day there just keyboards not cars lol

When I was new to the hobby there were plenty of sets that I wanted that were no longer available but instead of crying about it or buying cheap knock offs I focused on sets that I could buy. GMK R2’s, extras etc. Also now there are TONS of in stock items that are available so IMO there is absolutely no need to buy counterfeit designs, especially in western companies. It is clear how desirable a lot of GMK designs are and with good reason, they take the time to get the colours right!!! Sometimes taking years of prototyping!!! Group buys are not the normal way of seeing a product, we see the product before it’s even been prototyped so obviously it’s going to take a lot longer than products that have already gone through that process and are already on the shelves. So all the moaning about the time frames are very naive IMO, yes some times are getting to the point of ridiculous now and the need for GB’s is getting less and less but even so people have to understand the real reason as to why we have to wait for the GB time frames. People say “oh but if a clone set can be made so quickly and cheaply then why can’t GMK?” Clones don’t have to go through and pay for the colour matching and prototype process, clones don’t have to pay the designer and clones are completely different in terms of quality. There is so much entitlement when it comes to this subject, just because something is not available doesn’t give people the right to own any design they want and or steal it and resell it. If a painter paints a picture which is a one off do you have the right to copy it and sell it on the internet? NO!!!! People often say “oh it’s only 3 colours, no one can say they exclusively own this” If it is so easy to make a set as desirable as a popular GMK set then why aren’t all the in stock sets just as desirable??? The reason people love them is BECAUSE of all the extra time spent designing, colours matching and prototyping, marketing etc, the themes are often the same and it’s just blatant theft. counterfeiters don’t have to do any of this extra work and just come along and steal all that without a second thought. If we want designers to keep making these sets that we love then stealing them and selling them without commissioning them is not a good way to encourage and support this hobby!!!! F&@k clones!!!!!

No

I've had conversations with one or two of my viewers in my own channel and I've summarized my points as follows: From an enthusiast POV: What a lot of people don’t understand is that this hobby is not for the poor. I’m sorry but it just isn’t. Having the ability to own a mechkey is a luxury. Do you need a Rolex to tell the time? Nope. Do you need a Keycult to type on at work? Of course not. So saying that we as a community should cater to “young people” and “newcomers” who “don’t have enough money” to buy keycaps is, in my opinion, supporting piracy. No one is praising anybody for buying a fake Rolex or downloading pirated movies, so why provide an avenue for people to buy clone keycaps? Instead, earning your keep and saving your way up to a GMK or SP keycap should be glorified and encouraged. It just sucks that long wait times are part of the deal. Do I wish my 3 months old child can grow up to be 18 so he can be independent and I can communicate with him easier? Yeah but life doesn’t work that way. Why then should ethics bend as you wish? Piracy is piracy, no matter how someone tries to argue it. From a designer’s POV: Binge, Wade and Hipyo already pretty much covered this which is basically - don’t copy the artwork that I painstakingly did, go ahead and copy the exact pantones, alpha placement, font but not the artwork. From a business owner’s perspective: What’s the core of your business? What values do you stand for as a team and company? Who are your customers? Is it profit-driven? Is it community-driven? Are the bulk of customers newbies with low cash savings or rich-enough people who buys every other week? While I can’t and won’t answer these questions for you, I’m pretty sure mecha has enough capital to run a few popular colorways (colorways, not artwork) on your own, be it DMK, Aifei, NicePBT, ePBT or otherwise. Many studios and retailers have produced their own keycaps - Dixie, Rama, Monokei so of course I think Mecha can too in the near future. It’s tough (and expensive) to stand for the right values but doable. Tough, but doable.

chapstick dude

Clone keycaps are dope. Can't afford real ones

considering the fact that so many keycap sets are limited runs, and will not return for another run. the only way to legitimately get your hands on a real set is to pay the crazy upcharge on mechmarket. at that point the original designer will never see those gains, some guy on mechmarket will make more than the og artist