one advice: start looking in to the MM's and when those are "en masse" not possible there is only one conclusion. You still can play as you wish though. Plus: whole beat is not half as fast as played today, we very rarely hear single beat

He is talking specifically about Czerny's metronome marks and not that of other composers or editors of compositions. As for Beethoven, a great friend of Czerny, some his metronome marks are impossible and maybe this is explained by this video.

Preach it, John!!!

well you certainly do that well...! Czerny writes at the same time never to use rubato before being able to play the piece completely exactly in tempo. People just read whar they want to see. Sadly enough...

@@AuthenticSound You haven't addressed the point: embellishments cannot be played nor practised with the metronome, which is a perfectly reasonable and nuanced position on Cerny's part.

you didnt understand the video

Another Two Set fan!! 😄

He was not so bad, at least he said you could play slowly 😉

If you can play Czerny slowly, you can play it quickly. It is nice to see Two Set fan here.

What a colliding of worlds this comment is.

Even the legendary Ling Ling, after practicing 40 hours per day, would not be able to push his Steinway to these speeds.

Who needs Czerny? Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Couperin, Handel et al ALL did pretty well without him. I personally think that he was a "failed" comoser so he was compelled to make his mark somehow so he chose to be a pedagogue.

@@baxter5431 it's how I was trained as a child, develop technique based on lots of scales, and etudes (mostly Czerny). I can't argue if that's the absolute best way to do it, because I'm not any kind of pedagogue. But that's how I was taught, it appears to have worked, and there is no point in changing that routine when I'm 50 years old.. ;)

@@markrcca5329 I think to each his own. Yes, Czerny & Hanon help with building up strength in the fingers & hands, no doubt, but it still doesn't apply, much, to playing Louis Couperin or Froberger et al.

@@baxter5431 I don't think he is a fail composer , He has some really good music. Also he was the best teacher in europe at that time.

@@wolfie8748 exactly. And usually it is really less frustrating to study the technique and repeating endlessly on lesser great music...

🙄🙄😳

note how Viertelnote is singular and schlage is plural, so... quite literaly whole beat

@@AuthenticSound I understand the singular/plural distinction, and that is not what I am discussing. Czerny's text clearly shows that your interpretation is incorrect. You are not at all addressing the points I made above.

Still, all your examples could be interpreted as "metronome beat = full cicle". Just to be clear, I'm not saying he's right, just pointing out that there's no contradiction if "audible beats" and just "beats" have different meanings for Czerny.

For the fun of it? :-) Enjoy the ride... Just kidding! This applies to all instruments and not just keyboard instruments.

that...is so not true and so eeeeeasy to find out yourself....!

I do believe that relief and comfort were the whole point of music. I mean, life was grim enough, more than what it is today.

I agree. Playing music now feels to me like a refuge, a space of meditation and beauty.

Glad it was helpful!

Oh, he did. He got plenty of ridicule from his contemporaries. The AMZ reviews (the satyrical "Neue Kreisleriana" included) of op.337 in 1835 and op.365 in 1838 were extremely vitriolic towards his insane metronome numbers. This seems to indicate that at the time of Czerny, single beat was the norm and (apparently) the tradition. If double beat were still practised, it is reasonable to presume that the allergic reaction of his peers would've been less intense. Also, Czerny himself would've drawn attention to it, which he did not. Au contraire, he clearly gives a single-beat instruction which, if you don't believe me, you can see with your own eyes in the english edition of op.500, book 3, section C, chapter VII, pages 66-68).

@@oliviu-dorianconstantinesc288 Thanks for that, I shall look to see if IMSLP has an online copy. Czerny's metronome marks are the strongest of Wim's arguments (particularly his Bach editions), however I no longer pass comments since it became evident that Wim was censoring counter evidence (relating to how to play Schubert). At least your comment got through. p.s.I had a look. On the face of it 'a beat' seems to mean one tick. There is something odd though a dotted minim = 88 is described as "the true time of the Waltz"; this would make each crotchet as 264, which is not possible, so I do think there is something odd.

@@martinbennett2228 That's because Czerny's talking about the viennese waltz, which is up to 4 times faster than the regular, slow waltz. If you look at the motif structure, it spans 4 bars, 2 cells of 2 bars each. It is written like 6/8, but in 3/4 on a 2 bar structure.

@@oliviu-dorianconstantinesc288 Czerny gives 4 bars but it I cannot see an equivalence to 6/8. You might just about squeeze the first two bars in to that, but not the next two. I do not think I have even heard Chopin's minute waltz that fast, not even to try to fit it into a minute. On the other hand Czerny has a few bars of an adagio, that is more andante at his marking, but certainly would not go twice as slow. Then there is a mark for a presto that is fairly brisk at half tempo but would not make much sense at the marked tempo. It is an interesting topic, but it needs to be investigated in a dispassionate and academic manner, rather than as a religious cult.

@@martinbennett2228 If you count each crochet as a quaver and look at 2 bars as one, the structure becomes apparent.

You should discuss playability from behind the keys of your piano, not those of your computer...

no problem, but look again, the instructions are written by Czerny, so to stop the often used fake argument that his tempi are only targets. They weren't

@@AuthenticSound I don't see an answer to my perplexities in what you say. From my point it doesn't matter who wrote the instructions.

@Chlorinda Hi. Are you saying the same as I did, or contradicting it?! To be honest I've forgotten what Wim was on about, and though an excellent chap he's so prolix I can't be bothered to revisit his argument. As far as I'm concerned (to cut a Gordian knot) old metronome marks are really not very interesting. Well, quite interesting to know how fast Beethoven played his own music, if it could actually be established, but that needn't, and shouldn't, be any more than a very dispensible guide for contemporary performers.

@Chlorinda Me too! I'd only say: some early metronome marks are clearly bonkers; mechanical metronomes are inaccurate and VERY inaccurate at low speeds; play your Beethoven piano sonatas at any speed you like. Beethoven himself would say 'Gosh! That's given me a new insight into my own work!'.

Well. One of my teachers just did that with op 299 🤣

Also an organist (harpsichordist, too), yes "you play the room" but the tone's duration after the initial strike fades fairly quickly, and does not affect the perception of speed.

Understand your point. But he didn't, it was a real tempo, as all the others are, for real normal students

@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Not really, the ambiguity remains in the sentence. If Cherny wanted to associate the note value with two ticks, he would have written as I said above "each crochet must be played with two audible ticks". If he wanted to have single beat he would have said "each crochet must be played with each audible tick". But he wrote the vague expression "with the audible beats", hence the source is pretty useless.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hK6hY66b3MzYmIk.html

That's called tactus inaequalis, you'll find a bit more info in this video kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hK6hY66b3MzYmIk.html or here kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mpp7mJif28zYips.html

You are correct that the construction the piano of the time Czerny was different, but you're are wrong in your assumption. It was more difficult to play at speed than the modern piano, in fact the pianos of Vienna were harder to play than those of Érard Piano's in France with its double Escapement (key didn't have to return completely to re-strike the note) Patent issued in 1821, and these are too slow an action for single beat Beethoven or Czerny. Érard pianos of that time are slower than today's piano. I have played on antiques off and on as opportunity presented itself for over 50 years.

Mabye yes, truth is that so few people really seem to realize how many of these 'insane' tempi we have from that time, where composers as Beethoven and Chopin are in fact even 'moderate'

that would have been the case than for thousands of MMs

yes! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bKuXgLOZxNKVcn0.html

or yet, this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seconds_pendulum

Didn't the clocks have 12 hours am & 12 hours pm? Weren't there 60 minutes per hour? Wasn't 12 noon set when the sun was @ it's peak?

The Metres-Kilo-Second is now "SI" (Sistema Internacional - Spanish - equivalent to the French). Since Galileo's famous "Time Period is Proportional to the Square Root of the Quantity of the Length divided by Gravity", the second has been well-known, and it has not changed. The Metronome was invented in 1816 (patent), and in the mid-18th century, John Harrison was busy perfecting his time pieces using siderial days (watching a particular star over a roof top to check his clocks). The "second part of the hour" of time then is equal to today's by using the period of a pendulum whose length is roughly 0.24849 m. The frequency of that pendulum is also one second. It has two vibrations at 120 beats per minute. I hope this helps.

@@stevenreed5786 Quite right, Steve. the clocks - as often as they had cloudless skies - were set by the "noon mark". They were not interested in seconds at all, and most clocks were void of the minute hand. If you wish, get a cheapo clock, and pull the seconds and minutes, and you can "reckon" the time - with some practice - quite nicely with just the hour hand. The equation of time had to be reckoned with as well, so being pinpoint accurate was not a practice till very recent times. I have an 1891 "Mantle Clock" without seconds. It has a "recoil" escapement (not particularly accurate), and it stays within seconds per day compared to my quartz clock.

:-)

I'm just imagining someone coming back with something like "Only the arrogant quotes themselves" - Me.

The only difference between an "expert" and the rest of us is an "expert" (note the quotes) has a very narrow field of study and is very good at hiding his/her mistakes. You pointed to an expert the he did in fact make a mistake and he is truly infallible. Oops! There is a human behind that curtain!

@@Clavichordist And behind ALL the curtains, Monty Hall (not dating myself), we have - you guessed it - human beings!!! :D

@@emperorjimmu9941 Sure, Jimmy. He erroneously equated the velocity of sound through a solid and sound through a fluid. I had asked if sound travels faster through warm air or cold air. He incorrectly concluded that colder air being "denser" - like a denser solid - must allow sound to travel faster. Oops! The fact is that as air warms, the molecules in that air mass are able to travel faster (that is why the temperature increased assuming the volume and pressure remain constant). Since the air molecules travel faster, they can "bump into each other" faster. This idea is why adiabatic lapse rates are so interesting, and cause thunderstorms, etc. I wasn't being "dogmatic"; he refused the proof that I had sent him. To tie this back into music, specifically the Metronome, the correct way to read the Metronome is exactly the same way that you read a pendulum (because they are one and the same). The pendulum requires a distance of 2 Pi in order to find the time period. Ignoring isochronism (please, I don't want to discuss the brachistochrome issue), the pendulum of 0.24849 - ish meters will give you the time period of exactly-ish one second-ish; however, setting your metronome to "60" believing that it's a second causes you to play your music twice as fast. Conclusion: the whole beat interpretaton does not cause you to play 1/2 times too slow; the half beat interpretation causes you to play music 2X too fast. :D I hope that helped. - Tom

Republiccooper, you were "disclaimed". Thank you for playing hide an seek with me.

John Citron '

MM are documented everywhere to be exact tempo indications. No problems for the 19th century musicians, only to ...us

Scott Joplin indicated on his later printed scores, that ragtime is not to be played fast. His school of Ragtime admonishes that the effect of Rag Time is lost by playing too fast. By 1905 he put the words Slow March Tempo 1/4=72 beats per minute (Top speed for Andante moderato) His indications were initially Tempo di Marcia (March Tempo) not Cut Time (double quick time march) (March Tempo equals 3.4 miles per hour or a 17.64-minute mile. Double Time is essentially a jog that uses a cadence of 180 steps per minute. That equals 5.1 miles per hour or a 11.76-minute mile. Most people play as they are attempting to break the 3:43.13 record for the mile or 17 1.3 miles per hours.) Although there is artistic license, interpretation, but completely ignore the score's indications and you dishonor the composer. Would you repaint Da Vinci's Last Supper in Fluorescent Poster Paints on a crushed black velvet "canvass" and exhibit it under a black light. If Great works of art are for all time, would you put a handlebar mustache on the Mona Lisa? As to composer "aren't the best interpreters of their own music," that's horse manure. However, how many concerts of John Williams Movie Scores exceed the Composer at the baton?Rhetorical question. Or why performances by composers of their works in any genre are given such prominence in recording? According to their contemporaries J S Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and Liszt for example were unequaled in their interpretations of their own works.

@@Renshen1957 Drawing analogies between the arts is always risky, and doesn't work here, because a painting, or a novel, is fixed, whereas a piece of music is created anew every time it's performed. One way in which it DOES work is that any work of art, once published, passes out of the ownership of the creator (except perhaps in a purely legal sense). He or she has given it to the public, or to humanity, to use as it wishes. You don't expect a novelist to say 'You've GOT to like my character X! She's supposed to be NICE!' And I don't believe an artist fully understands his or her own creation (if that means anything). For instance, I really believe I could sit down at the piano (this is supposing I were a competent pianist!) and play Beethoven one of his piano sonatas, and when I'd finished, he'd say 'Hm. I liked that. It's not quite how I thought of it, and it's not how I play it myself, but you've shown me things in my music I hadn't realised were there.' As for composers as interpreters of their own music - just do an experiment. There are plenty of recordings of Rachmaninov playing his own music. Ask six concert pianists whether, when performing his music, they try to imitate him. When they all say ' No'', ask them why not.

@@hermoglyph2255 Except in a parody, plagiarism or satire work, any work not in the public domain does not belong to humanity. Whether one likes or dislikes a work, is a subjective choice of a rational being. As to the six concert pianists, not one would dare to imitate Rachmaninov, as they would always pale in comparison, and Rachmaninov's Ghost (as recorded) would be the victor. To date (50 years and counting), not one virtuoso pianist has won the accolade of playing better than Rachmaninov, only different. Beethoven's quotation on the subject of performance, he wasn't so concerned with missed or flubbed notes, but rather if the pianist played with expression and emotion (which he learned from C P E Bach's Essay on Keyboard playing). Beethoven would only take pupils that met his high standards of performance and talent, Czerny became his pupil on his performance. From Czerny's biography: "At that time an old man named Krumpholz (brother of the inventor of the pedal harp) visited us nearly every morning. He was a violinist and as such had a position in the orchestra of the Court Theatre; yet at the same time he was a musical enthusiast whose passion for music was carried to the most extravagant lengths. Nature has endowed him with a just and delicate feeling for the beautiful in tonal art, and though he possessed no great fund of technical knowledge, he was able to criticize every composition with much acumen, and, so to say, anticipate the judgments of the musical world. "As soon as young Beethoven appeared for the first time, Krumpholz attached himself to him with a persistence and devotion which soon made him a familiar figure in his home, so that he practically spent nearly the hole day with him, and Beethoven, who ordinarily was most reticent with everyone regarding his musical projects, told Krumpholz about all his ideas, played every new composition for him time and again, and improvised for him every day. Although Beethoven often poked fun at the unfeigned ecstasies into which Krumpholz invariably fell, and never called him anything but his jester; yet he was touched by this attachment, which led him to affront the bitterest enmities in order to defend his cause against his adversaries, so numerous in those days. For at that time Beethoven's compositions were totally misunderstood by the general public, and all the followers of the old Mozart-Haydn school opposed them with the most intense animosity." "This was the man for whom, day by day, I had to play Beethoven's works, and although he knew nothing of piano playing, he was, quite naturally, able to tell me a great deal about their tempo, interpretation, effects, characteristics, etc., since he often heard them played by Beethoven himself, and in most cases had been present when they came into being. His enthusiasm soon infected me and before long I, in turn, was a Beethoven worshipper like himself, learned all that Beethoven had written by heart, and, considering my years, played it with skill and enthusiasm. Krumpholz also invariably told me about the new things Beethoven had "under pen," and would sing or play on his violin the themes he had heard in Beethoven's home during the forenoon. Owing to this circumstance I was always informed at a much earlier date than others with regard to what Beethoven had under way. Later this made it possible for me to realize how long, often for years at a time, Beethoven polished his compositions before they were published, and how in new works he used motives which had occurred to him many years before, because our friendly relations with Krumpholz were maintained over a long period of years up to his death, which took place in 1817." (Note Beethoven had high standards as to his compositions) "I was about ten years old when Krumpholz took me to see Beethoven. With what joy and terror I greeted the day on which I was to meet the admired master! Even now this moment is vividly present in my memory. It was a winter's day when my father, Krumpholz, and I took our way from Leopoldstadt (where we were still living0 to Vienna proper, to a street called der tiefe Graben (the Deep Ditch), and climbed endless flights to the fifth and sixth story, where a rather untidy looking servant announced us to Beethoven and then admitted us. The room presented a most disorderly appearance; papers and articles of clothing were scattered about everywhere, some trunks, bare walls, hardly a chair, save the wobbly one at the Walter fortepiano (then the best), and in this room was gathered a company of from six to eight persons, among them the two Wranitsky brothers, Süssmayr, Schuppanzigh and one of Beethoven's brothers. Beethoven himself wore a morning coat of some longhaired, dark gray material, and trousers to match, so that he at once recalled to me the picture in Campe's 'Robinson Crusoe,' which I was reading at the time. His coal black hair, cut a la Titus, bristled shaggily about his head. His beard-he had not been shaved for several days-made the lower part of his already brown face still darker. I also noticed with that visual quickness peculiar to children that he had cotton which seemed to have been steeped in a yellowish liquid, in his ears. At that time, however, he did not give the least evidence of deafness. I was at once told to play something, and since I did not dare begin with one of his own compositions, played Mozart's great C major Concerto, the one beginning with Chords. Beethoven soon gave me his attention, drew near my chair, and in those passages where I had only accompanying passages played the orchestral melody with me, using his left hand. His hands were overgrown with hair and his fingers, especially at the ends, were very broad. The satisfaction he expressed gave me the courage to play his Sonata Pathetique, which had just appeared, and finally his 'Adelaide,' which my father sang in his very passable tenor. When he had ended Beethoven turned to him and said: 'The boy has talent. I will teach him myself and accept him as my pupil. Send him to me several times a week. First of all, however, get him a copy of Emanuel Bach's book on the true art of piano playing, for he must bring it with him the next time he comes,' Then all those present congratulated my father on this favourable verdict, Krumpholz in particular being quite delighted, and my father at once hurried off to hunt up Bach's book.( C P E Bach's Essay on Keyboard playing)"" (Thayer: 226-28; [siehe auch: Cooper: 103] ). Czerny had been given insight as to how Beethoven played his pieces by Wenzel Krumpholz, and delighted that the 10 year old understood his works. Had he played the work differently, to show Beethoven (the master) something in his works (which he slaved over before publication), is beyond the imagination that Beethoven would have taken him as a student no matter how talented. Besides Czerny, George Augustus Polgreen Bridgetower Afro-European musician Violinist (Beethoven dedicated Violin Sonata No. 9 in A major (Op.47) to Bridgetower, with the goodheartedly mocking dedication Sonata per un mulattico lunatico), Teréz Brunszvik (most likely candidate for the title Immortal Beloved), Dorothea von Ertmann, and Ferdinand Ries. I won't give you a laundry list of J S Bach's students, but one who made a mistake in one of his compositions, Bach through his wig in frustration and said, "You had better have been a cobbler!" Compositions are like children to composers. Let's just say in my subjective opinion, I disagree with your assessment. I might add that Dance, an art form, must be recreated anew each time it's performed. Woe to the Ballerina that does not follow the choreography.

yes, and only possible in short runs. You have a similar passage in a beethoven sonata - will come back to that one- 28 / s is impossible by default.

It is perfectly in line with the Maelzel instructions: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bdqZrbqoq8_Fe5c.html

the chopin is quite impossible I'd say keeping strict time. Hammerklavier : kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qbygqLqT0rzcc6c.html

even not him

that must be...a joke, right?

@@AuthenticSound yes, it was!

Thank you!!

:-) time must go slower than to give us the feeling that that early music is so fast

Whole beat in music, half beat in commenting! :D

@@lemonemmi You are one of my favourite people, Ms. Emmi! You know, there isn't a Metronome setting far enough down the rod that would beat my enjoyment of this community and Wim's mentorship. It's virtual - sure - but I know you are real people, and you are wonderful people. God bless you.

@@thomashughes4859 Aww that is so sweet! I truly enjoy the community aspect of this channel too. It truly is a group of dear friends, gathered to learn and enjoy most beutiful music!

@@lemonemmi

he shared our nerve and muscle system, so: no here is the intro to the 'solution': kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bKuXgLOZxNKVcn0.html