Thank you so much for these videos. Are you able to do a video explaining the distinction between the terms "fashionable" and "respectable" in Austen novels?

Yes, great point. Perhaps learnt from the Gardiners? All three are confident in themselves, and in their abilities (even if Lizzy is slightly knocked by the Darcy / Wickham affair), which we can see when they visit Pemberley together.

Hi. All in all, as the daughter of a country gentleman with a large income, Elizabeth had good reason to feel confident.

@@glendodds3824 not really, as she is clearly very aware that the fact that their father's estate is going to Mr. Collins is something that makes them a lot less likely to make a good match. She simply refuses to let that make her feel less than, and to allow that money and rank is a reflection of worth, which is impressive.

As Lady Catherine de Bourgh acknowledged, Elizabeth was 'very genteel' and she was thus not overawed by Lady Catherine or intimidated by rich people of lower birth than herself like the upstart Bingley sisters. Moreover, although Elizabeth's circumstances were certainly not ideal, as a pretty, intelligent and vivacious daughter of a country gentleman she had decent prospects of marrying a man of substance, either a fellow member of the gentry or at least a lawyer or well-to-do business associate of her uncle, Mr Gardiner.

So I suppose it's easy for a monarch to hand out knighthoods left and right if it can't be inherited by his family. It's flattering, but it really doesn't elevate his family at all.

I'm not sure she suffered fools gladly necessarily, but I agree with you - I think she was well versed in coping with them.

Charlotte is 27 with no prospects and no money. Mr Collins has a respectable job. I never put the absurd father and absurd husband connection together. I will look at Charlotte differently now.

@@DrOctaviaCox not gladly, but Charlotte is very pragmatic.

Good point! I never connected the two before. (I will say, Sir William strikes me as kinder and more easy-going than Mr. Collins, who is very judgmental. And while he’s a doofus socially, he must have enough wits to have prospered in business.)

But Mr. Collins and Sir Lucas are silly for very different reasons. Mr Collins does not have that same discomfort with his station or 'situation in life'. His extreme deference to authority apparently came from his difficult relationship with his father, who was not an easy man, I seem to recall from the book.

I note the Bennet family fortune won't provide a good dowry for their daughters or a season either. Also buying land assuming they also bought land that could be rented out to farmers (and may have rented out their former house in Meryton) was a relatively safe investment in England at that time though it probably would have been wiser to wait till the sons were adult. Buy the estate for the eldest son and have the younger sons take over the family business. The Lucas's are at least economizing by having their daughters contribute to the household economy; Mrs Bennet comments that Charlotte works in the kitchen. It was the fate of daughters and younger sons of the gentry especially those in large families to have limited resources since the bulk would go to the eldest son (and some families could be quite large, I have one ancestor born 1764, a daughter of a Welsh baronet; she had 11 siblings who reached adulthood [daughter number 8, Octavia, only just], I doubt she had much of a dowry and she married a well-to-do tradesman [and a sister married his brother]).

@@erp1293 At 2,000 pounds per year income, Mr. Bennet could certainly have managed to set money aside for his daughters' dowries, he was simply too irresponsible and disinterested in his family's wellbeing. Furthermore, had he cared to apply himself to the effort, he might have even been able to legally break the entail on his estate - although not easily done, there were ways to do that. It really wasn't lack of resources, it was Mr. Bennet's lack of character.

@@erp1293 I think the Bennets were “older” gentry, but because Mr Bennet married a wife that wasn’t good with money and he valued his amusement at his wife higher than trying to influence her, to result in financial stability for his children, they didn’t have a dowry. So both Mr Bennet and Sir William could have done “better”.

With a large annual income of £2,000, I think Mr Bennet could afford to take his family to London for the social season, especially as the city was only about 25 miles from his home. However, we are told that he disliked London. Moreover, in Sense and Sensibility another country gentleman, Colonel Brandon also has an annual income of £2,000 and does spend time in London even though it is much further from his country estate in Dorset than is the Bennet estate at Longbourn. At the very least, Mr Bennet could have taken his daughters to London for part of the season but he was too self-indulgent to do so.

@@rebeccam7717 It’s unlikely he could have broken the entail, but he very probably could have made better use of the land, and he certainly could have been more careful about his expenses

I think you may well be right. I've always wondered if it is little joke of Austen's that she gives Sir William Lucas and Mr Collins the same self-referential phrase: "my situation in life". When he is proposing to Lizzy, Mr Collins refers to "My situation in life, my connections with the family of de Bourgh" (ch.19). And Sir William (as I quoted in the video) refers to "that knowledge of what the manners of the great really are, which my situation in life has allowed me to acquire" (ch.29). And then - revealingly - Austen also gives the same phrase to Charlotte Lucas when she is explaining why she has accepted Mr Collins: "considering Mr. Collins’s character, connection, and situation in life, I am convinced that my chance of happiness with him is as fair as most people can boast on entering the marriage state" (ch.22).

@@DrOctaviaCox, I never even thought of the direct association to Mr. Collins in that way! It’s funny because I read Pride and Prejudice about twice a year. I’m always finding something new every single time. Listening to your talks makes me able to see them more clearly. I would love to see more close readings on Sense and Sensibility. I’m not as deeply in tune with that book.

I have a question that isn’t germain to this discussion, I’m afraid. I was wondering if Mr. Darcy’s behavior was in any way affected by the fact of his betrothal to Lady Catherine’s daughter.

@@DrOctaviaCox And is it not ironic that both men have the same first name: William?

@@murraycallahan3716 I don't think Darcy really felt himself betrothed to his cousin or anyone else. He certainly acted and was treated socially as a free agent. I think the betrothal is in Lady Catherine's mind.

Ha! - it's my pleasure.

Great point Rachel - it's all an ecosystem in which one thrives (or struggles) by participating in that system. We might think of Mr Perry in 'Emma', for instance. One wonders what he might actually say about Mr Woodhouse when out of the hearing of the inhabitants of Hartfield!

Yes, Darcy doesn't encourage or reward that kind of sycophancy when Collins and Sir William try it on him, and he does make a small effort to be reasonably polite when discouraging it. He coolly shuts it down by giving only nods or short replies.

Mr Darcy is a snob full of pride and prejudice. He knows he has an elevated position in society- which he did not earn like Sir L- he was born into it. Mr Darcy just looks down on everyone

@@ophilliaophillia5918 He doesn't look down on everyone else though. His behavior to the Gardiners is respectful, warm, and kind. His best friend is Mr. Bingley. Both the Gardiners and the Bingleys are of decidedly lower rank. He IS full of pride and prejudice, but the interesting thing about the book is that nearly all of the main characters are. All of them make mistakes, miscommunications, and misinterpretations because of their own prides and prejudices.

@@mimiadams247 Darcy tells Elizabeth that his behaviour to the Gardiners was meant to show Elizabeth how much he has changed. Yes, he was proud and supercilious before she took him down quite a few pegs.

Thank you Dr Cox and @amybee40 - my sentiments exactly!

i feel a great affection for Miss Bates, she really got the short end of life's stick.

An excellent comment.

Thank you - I'm glad you enjoy my videos.

I knew I wasn't the only one who felt this.

Yes!!! Very relaxing

@@i.b.640 Mr Collins has a rather unpleasant streak, he's clearly happy about the impending scandal over Lydia and goes to the trouble of visiting them to gloat over it.

@@i.b.640 I think Jane Bennet would be of your opinion. If I remember she defended him to Lizzie as not being 'vicious', which I suppose means not having vices such as drunkenness or philandering. That's certainly true. I think his main problem is being very stupid which, unfortunately, is hard to cure!

Yes I think Sir William Lucas is certainly the better man of the two of them he host parties he's nice to everybody he goes to the common public Assemblies of Maryton and he's doing his very best to be just nice and pleasant to everyone because he thinks that's what he should do. Throwing a ball is not a cheap thing. so the fact that he throws them kind of regularly yes in part it's obviously to get his own children married off. But it's also just a nice neighborly thing to do if you have the money to do it. I feel like he's genuinely excited for Elizabeth when she gets engaged to Darcy. Calling Elizabeth the brightest Jewel of the country I think as a genuine compliment to Elizabeth, he's not being hyperbolic here. Yes his effusion and way of expressing it is probably more than a little dorky but he generally wants good things for his neighbors which is not the worst thing to have. It's Mr Collins who chooses to slight the Bennett family after Elizabeth rejects him and sneak off with Charlotte lucas. Sir Lucas had nothing to do with that he's just happy to have his oldest daughter married off, he's not trying to be an ass. His wife scheming about how long Mr Bennett's going to live that is tackless and nasty and proves that she's very much like Mr Collins. And materially that does devalue Sir William Lucas a little bit the fact that he's married to this woman but it doesn't change what his personal character is. The truth of the matter is I think Mr Collins was already attracted to Charlotte Lucas more than to the Bennett girls because she knows how to cook and he knows his situation at the personage is going to require a woman that knows how to cook. And once he is free from his moral obligation of proposing to one of the Bennett girls which Elizabeth is so adamantly lets him free of with no consideration that hey Mary might want him. And in putting him off on Charlotte Lucas she's actually taking benefit away from her family and giving Mr Collins the impression that she wants him to marry her friend instead. To Mr Collins this would feel like permission to go after the woman he preferred anyway. He made it very clear in his attention to the Bennett girls that he believed that the oldest daughter should marry first and therefore that meant if he married one of the Lucas girls he would be obligated to take Charlotte. Charlotte had been tolerably encouraging. If there had been no entail to obligate Mr Collins to make an offer to the Bennett girls and he for some reason had still come to Longborn looking for a wife but with no obligation to pick one of the Bennett daughters; I think he would have naturally chosen Charlotte Lucas because she knows all of the things he wants a wife to know, she's an oldest daughter, her father's a Knight. Her brother will be a Gentleman when her father dies that checks all of Mr Collins's want boxes.

Lol. I feel a kinship somehow: I started in science, and now teach high school English.

It's my pleasure. It's so fascinating to me too to think about what Austen's contemporaries would have taken from her novels that might be different to our readings today. Upward mobility, yes, but also the worry of downward mobility too - we might think of poor Miss Bates (and indeed Mrs Bates) in 'Emma'.

Or Mrs Smith in Persuasion, betrayed by the now wealthy friend of her dead husband, whom they helped so much before.

@@DrOctaviaCox Miss Bates" situation is closer to Austen's than any of her other characters, except that she, Cassandra, and their mother had richer relations who helped them.

😂

I love this. I feel like I can excuse Sir Lucas far more than Lady Catherine because he is awkwardly trying to be what he knows he is not, while she thinks she already is. The system is ridiculous, and makes them both become so. But Sir Lucas retains his kindness, which is more than can be said for most.

Yes, but this scene was not in a book :)

I know, that's why I daid it didn't make sense.

@@TsunamiBrook yes :) I'm sure they could say so. Very probable :)

I think there is some logic to it, though. They understand that the knighthood was awarded as a courtesy rather than as recognition for something with actual merit, so even though on paper he's a higher rank than them, in practice the knighthood is worth little. He's gentry, but he's poor, and he's retired, so they'd feel justified in making fun of him because he's stuck in the class that he is, while they have a chance to move up, and when they do they'll be way above him.

I don’t think it’s out of place. Status in Jane Austen’s time is a complicated layer cake of money, titles, property, education, and connections. Miss Bingley’s comment in the film actually helps illustrate this and may have been taken from this line in the novel “They were of a respectable family in the north of England; a circumstance more deeply impressed on their memories than that their brother’s fortune and their own had been acquired by trade.”

Sir Lewis was a knight but came from a rich old family, as Lady Catherine states towards the end of Pride and Prejudice: ''My daughter and my nephew are formed for each other. They are descended on the maternal side, from the same noble line; and, on the father's, from respectable, honourable, and ancient, though untitled families. Their fortune on both sides is splendid.' (Volume 3, Chapter 14.)

Certainly the Darcy family were known to be of antiquity and wealth, Sir Louis is a bit more uncertain, wealthy certainly, but only Lady Catherine ever claims anything else for him. Curiously he paid an impressive sum for the windows of Risings, implying he was the one on who had it built, therefore the most lavish house is not of great antiquity at all.

Why do you think Lady Catherine's earl father had a modest fortune? That is never mentioned in the book, afaik.

​@@SJRD18 I would think it because both sisters married below their class. They by birth belonged to titled aristocracy (daughters of an earl). But they both married men of gentry class, not aristocrats. There must be a reason for that, especially on Lady Catherine de Bourg's side considering her pride and obsession with rank preservation. Small fortune of their father might be the reason. So the daughters of the earl married men of the lower class (gentry) but with superior fortune.

@kamunurkamunur3468 in the book, Lady Catherine describes her and her sister's family's fortune as "splendid." They are very wealthy and they married equally wealthy men.

"Her scorn for Mr. Collins is far less reasoned. " I think it makes perfect sense: she's her father's daughter, and has been trained to despise people like that, and since Collins will eventually be taking her father's place at Longbourn, she has even more reason to feel that way.

@@coloraturaElise I agree with you entirely. Lizzy has every reason to dislike Mr. Collins. What I meant to say is that Lizzie is less deliberate in her reaction to Mr. Collins than in her reactions to Caroline Bingley and Sir William. Probably because he poses a threat that neither of the others do.

Brilliant!

Yes, indeed - Mr Hurst is a curious character. We are not told very much about him - but everything we need to know! All we are told when introduced to him, for example, is that "Mr. Hurst, merely looked the gentleman" (ch.3). Brutally damning! And later that "he was an indolent man, who lived only to eat, drink, and play at cards" (ch.8). Mrs Hurst's reason for marrying him, we're told, is "fashion" - a terrible reason! "Mrs. Hurst... had married a man of more fashion than fortune" (ch.4). But he has a house "in town", meaning in London, in the very, very fashionable Grosvenor Street ("She then read the first sentence aloud, which comprised the information of their having just resolved to follow their brother to town directly, and of their meaning to dine in Grosvenor Street, where Mr. Hurst had a house" (ch.21)) - so he's not poor. Being "fashionable" granted one a different kind of social status. But obviously it was more precarious than other forms of social cachet. Perhaps it is this precariousness which means that Mrs Hurst is so keen for her brother to establish himself more firmly by purchasing an estate.

@@DrOctaviaCox I think it's worth bearing in mind that the leader of London fashion at this time was Prince George (later the Prince Regent), who was infamous for his dissolute lifestyle. If Mr (and Mrs) Hurst aspired to be part of the Prince's set, it would explain his indolence and her anxiety to have some solid claim to be "gentry".

Maybe they married, when Mr Bingley senior was still actively in trade? But it wouldn’t show Mr Bingley senior not in a good light to support a match with such a man…? In general, I’m puzzled how the Bingleys can be siblings…

@@dottiewi661 We don't know much about Mr. Bingley senior. He might not have been a good judge of character.

@@dottiewi661 In a more compassionate light, they may have married not long after Bingley Sr's death? I could understand someone of "fashion" showing the bereft girl a much-needed good time, and she mightn't have had the support system to push her in a better direction.

And their snobbery comment to think we need his assistance.

@@cedarcottagefarm2885 Both were shallow

that moment is really funny to me in the context of this video. It's 2 groups obsessed with their elevated class clashing against one another. Sir William is able to maintain his world view but his offer for introductions really highlights the Bingly's situation. Yeah they hang out with more high class people than Sir William but at the end of they day they rely on those people for their own distinction. Sir William has a house of is own and a title so no matter what they think of him, he is above them

But he - however pompous - was trying to be kind, while they were only sneering, with no positive intent

I read A Journal of the Plague Year at the height of the AIDS epidemic shortly after my best friend was diagnosed with AIDS. I somehow needed it at the time. It seemed the only thing appropriate to the situation. It somehow validated how I felt, what was really happening, while so much of the world went on as usual. This was despite the fact that Defoe himself sometimes downplayed the severity of the plague and wasn't a fastidious historian. Anyway, thanks for mentioning it. I've never heard anyone else talk about it, and it was really important in my life for a time. (I lost that friend 2 years later, a few years before the antiretroviral drugs became available, and I felt that loss for a great many years, so that book is a kind of memorial marker for me.)

Aaaah, thank you! Oh gosh, French literature is a bit beyond my ken, I'm afraid. Defoe on the other hand... a fascinating writer. Journal of a Plague Year might be a little close to the bone at the moment! - but I could definitely do a video on Moll Flanders, perhaps, or Robinson Crusoe.

​@@DrOctaviaCox My apologises! I assumed that your penchant was in classical literature spanning all Europe :) Regardless, we are grateful for the refreshing, millennial perspective you give on English lit, as opposed to the dusty, received pronunciation pov that is often mutually exclusive with sub-genre :). Rob Crusoe! A classic, yet one I am not deeply invested in... mainly because I found it profoundly boring :D. HOWEVER, I wouldn't put it past you to make a strong defence and flip my pov at a 180. And as for Moll Flanders... AgainI would never pass up a Defoe lecture (as you can tell :P). In addition, If i can petition another idea(s)... a little bit of love for our Gaskell! It would be fascinating to cross-compare North and South to Austen's P&P, given the immense overlap between the two. And/or, the wonderful Eliot novel on Daniel Deronda, again possibly cross-comparing with Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice and the take-aways of anti-semitism (or pro-semitism? It is my understanding that we are still 'not sure' if Shakespeare was an anti or pro-semitism....:O) Again, lots of love

@@DrOctaviaCox Would LOVE for you to tackle Robinson Crusoe, as I have been looking for an excuse to re-read it. I found it fascinating when I read it as a child, but I am sure that I missed a lot of nuance. What I did not miss, even then, was the astonishment at how Crusoe meets Friday and automatically thinks of him as a servant. Shocking to my young sensibilities.

@@laurahihaha Didn't Shakespeare live while the Jews were still in exile from England? The question would indeed be whether he knew any Jews rather than how he felt about them except as stereotypes. Considering that they had been expelled, it would have been hard for him not to be an antisemite. Although I've read that there was a family named Lopez that had managed to return and that one of them was a physician at Queen Elizabeth's court.

Agree ❤

I have a daughter in a classical education school. She likes Beowulf, but not Jane Austen; I know she’s at least read Emma and P&P while waiting around after state testing, and she’s reading P&P for 10th grade this year. I’ve sent her links to Dr. Cox’s & ElliDashwood’s videos; my daughter likes to have that “extra” knowledge to show off or make the class more interesting for herself so I’m trying to appeal to her vanity😁. Sometimes I can get her to listen to things I expect will be helpful while she is animating. She doesn’t like to watch adaptations before being tested on a book because she’s afraid it will confuse her. Perhaps I’ll try showing her the 1980 Northanger Abby; I feel safe that her school won’t put it on the book list, and the weirdness of the movie might appeal to her🤔. I was a history major and participated in a study abroad with my university’s English department. We went to Bath and I didn’t know anything about Jane Austen😱-I didn’t know why my flatmate was so excited. My supervisor at the school I worked at gave me a copy of P&P before I left England & I have been a Jane Austen lover ever since🥰.

Ha! - well, I hope it satisfies.

Indeed, these videos just make me love Jane Austen‘s books even more. I now have an even richer experience when I re-read scenes and character sketches. Thank you for starting this channel!

My pleasure! Thanks for watching.

It's my pleasure - thank you very much indeed for watching.

It’s true, the Bingley sisters can’t be active in this to a degree, to cement their status as gentlewomen. But Mrs Hurst already married a gentleman, she is a gentleman’s wife. But we don’t really see a reason for their snobbery in the direct behaviour of others toward them. Nobody said anything bad to them because they’re from trade. Jane Austen only laughs at their snobbery.

@@dottiewi661 I was under the impression that Mr Hurst was wealthy but not a gentleman, but perhaps I remember it wrong. If that’s the case, it explains Louisa’s middle ground position: she’s not as mean as Caroline because she’s not as desperate, but she also hasn’t reached Sir William’s level of contentment because by helping himself, he helped his entire family unit to rise, while Louisa’s immediate family is “in the trade” to this day. We don’t see anyone judging the Bingleys in that particular provincial town, but we can assume they have been put in their place elsewhere (in London?), given the rigidity of British class structures. The sisters are angry that they can’t cross the barrier despite being wealthy, fashionable and living “in the right place.” That’s why they look down on the Gardiners, they want to be “distinguished” as Dr Cox put it. And then there’re people like the Bennets, who have no money, manners, education or connections, yet enjoy their secure position and don’t have to jump through hoops to get above their heads. To top it off, Charles is considering marrying one of them, essentially being the one to marry up instead of purchasing land for the entire family’s sake like he was supposed to, and Darcy too is smitten by Lizzy and sees her as his equal despite her disheveled appearances and lack of education. So the sisters see this situation as unfair and try to find some stability by reminding themselves how superior they really are, but it all comes from having no confidence in their position.

@@SailorMoon-in-Cancer from this perspective it makes more sense, true. But would a brother married to a gentlewoman and a sister married to a gentleman also help her position? (About Mr Hurst is said that he is a man of more fashion than fortune, with a house in town, Grosvenor street). Maybe not as much as living in her brother’s own house, but Charlotte’s marriage with Mr Collins also helped her family. I do not condemn her wish to rise, but the methods. She’s mean to those below her and to those just above her, like the Lucasses and the Bennets, even though she’s financially more secure. And I have just remembered, that they said that they didn’t need Sir Williams introduction at court, which means, that they aren’t looked down upon as much? Status is what they want, and it was very important in this class, but even Mrs Bennett’s fears, silly as she is, are more real and simple, her fear that she and her daughters living after Mr Bennett’s death,even though it was in part her own fault of not saving money for them.

Darcy and Miss Bingley have different views on education, and she didn’t notice that. She is valuing accomplishments, he real knowledge of different topics, acquired by reading.

Actually, Mr Bennet had an annual income of £2,000 (which was a very large income for the time) and Lady Catherine de Bourgh states that Elizabeth Bennet was "very genteel."

Oh, thank you very much!

I’d like that too! I love that novel and I am very fond of the good doctor… even though I think “Dr. Thorne” is full of plot holes. (Really, nobody ever guessed Mary Thorne’s parentage? Roger Scatcherd’s killing Dr. Thorne’s brother for getting his sister pregnant must have been the subject of gossip in Barsetshire for years. Alternately, nobody ever speculated that Mary was the doctor’s own illegitimate daughter? And how is it ethical for Dr. Thorne to treat Roger’s sickly son, while secretly aware that his death would let Mary inherit the Scatcherd fortune?) Aside from that, I second your suggestion of focusing on the Scatcherds. Roger S is an example of that classic Victorian figure, the massively successful tradesman and builder… but I think Trollope’s own snobbery is what leads to him being portrayed as a coarse, pushy social climber who’s a failure in his personal life.

It's my pleasure, Tarah - thanks for watching!

If he could have quitted trade later, if he he had the chance of gaining more, maybe his children would have a better financial standing as gentlefolk? Because there always would have been, advisers like Mrs Ferrars, General Tilney etc who would “advise” a possible spouse against a partner with less money. My favourite parents are the Gardiners and the Morlands, they don’t try to be someone they’re not, while trying to make their family happy and financially stable.

If he had done his job Charlotte would not be a 27-year-old spinster with no dowry. Charlotte's marriage was the results of Charlotte's doing.

Ha! - thank you. Christmas in July!

Considering that he and his children were happy to give Charlotte away to Mr.Collins and that Charlotte had to do (at least some of) the household chores at Lucas Lodge, the answer would be "yes".

He is "Sir Willliam Lucas" or "Sir William", but never "Sir Lucas" However! his wife is "Lady Lucas" but never " Lady Lucas,., that distinction only being given to ladies of aristocratic birth (Lady Catherine de Bourgh is the daughter of Earl Fitzwilliam but had she not been of aristocratic birth, she would have been, as the wife of Sir Lewis de Bourgh simply Lady de Bourgh) One of the weird little quirks of titles I'm afraid

We don't really know, but it's certain possible. The Lucases' happiness in finding a suitor for Charlotte may be due to her perceived destiny as a spinster rather than the lack of sufficient dowry.

Ewww. 🤢

And deserves even more .p g wood house brovo!