Normen also uses skill swap in his emerald rematches. By using a skill swap blissey & spinda, he's able to either give slaking serene grace OR own tempo. Serene grace making it even scarier and own tempo making it immune to spinda's teeter dance. If blissey or spinda survive after their first skill swap & traunt cycle, they're then able to skill swap traunt onto you lol

@@jaernihiltheus7817 do they really skill swap truant? That's really fucking cool

@@mertensiam3384 yep, it's his lead in every rematch team (skill swap chansey/blissey + slaking). If he gets in a situation where both blissey & spinda are on the field he'll ever skill swap pass truant from blissey onto spinda during a truant turn lol. The other rematch teams employ similar "advanced" tactics. IIRC tate & liza will use role play to copy levitate onto their few mons that get hit with friendly fire earthquakes & use wish tactics, flannery goes all-in on sun abuse, roxanne goes all-in on sand abuse, juane abuses swift swim & thunder rain dance, wattson abuses paraflinch, etc etc. They're all double battles on rematch and get progressively stronger until they have a full team of 6 elite four level mons.

@@jaernihiltheus7817 it really sucks that emerald has such a shit way of handling rematches, with all that stupid stuff of having a 33% of triggering a rematch after a set number of trainer battles and wild battles, cause I wish I could experience all this first hand without all that hassle

@@mertensiam3384 well there's this video with all of them at full power, most don't really get a good showing since the ai decided to be dumb and spam protect (also the player got insanely lucky with paralysis/freeze chances a lot). Normen gets a good showing though, bringing the player with a rayquaza down to 1 pokemon. Juan also gets to show off his perish song + double team/attract shenanigans, as does flannery with her helping hand arcanine & a full team of white herb + overheat combos: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mMWEiqeiz9nFaJs.htmlsi=jbMAMdfBy1Y5b61M

If I remember correctly, there are a few trainers who use Shedinja in Colosseum and XD, and not exclusively in the post game either. Another reason to love those games.

I'm pretty sure the only occurence of shedinja in colosseum is the 99th battle on mt battle, because 7-year old me got very frustrated with it way back when. i dont think i encountered any others, and i 100%-ed the game. Dont remember if there were any in XD though.

I'm kind of glad because the reality of not having the Shedinja counter is the player waiting an unthinkable amount of turns to either game over or wait for the Shedinja to struggle out. Very fun gimmick though

Someone who chose Treecko or Mudkip as their starter would have been wondering how the frick they’re supposed to kill that thing

@@NinjaskKing As someone who's done more Treecko or starter-less runs in the past 5 years than the other 2 starters, I can tell you that RSE Treecko is the worst starter (particularly in Ruby) in all of Pokemon. Even gen 5 starters that I don't find useful at all still are more useful than Treecko is in his own game. Treecko starts and faces Pokemon that are either normal, dark, water/grass, grass, bug, flying or poison type, with a few ground/bug, steel/rock and the occasional Geodude or Nosepass (there are less than 4 trainers with Nosepass in the whole game). He's neutral in 50% match-ups approx, advantaged in 10% max and at a disadvantage or hitting not very effective in 40% of the fights. Then you look at Treecko's stats and movepool. Treecko is a special sweeper with less than ideal sp atk, his atk is crappy for gen 3 that tends to have quite defensive tanks and his level up movepool is abysmal, he learns only 10-40 power moves until level 29! Stuck with absorb, the weakest grass move until 29 when he learns a 70 move with crit (but crit has been nerf hammered since gen 1 so the crit rate is barely noticeable compared with a regular crit rate move) that only has 15 PP despite being a grass move, while Slash, a normal move with the same stats has 20 uses and has better type match-ups than leaf blade. The TMs Treecko learns (well, his evolutions, since Treecko is also a lightweight and lacks the arm blades its' evolutions have) are mostly physical except for bullet seed (which isn't much better than absorb) and giga drain and most of the time you get an useful TM/HM AFTER the gym in which it would be a godsend. Then you look at synergy. Treecko's synergy is garbage. His movepool relies 90% of TMs, so he's gonna be stealing all the coverage moves if you want him to do anything but OHKO a Whiscash in the last gym. 30% of the game is water? Let's put Tentacool and Tentacruel and bird water Pokemon EVERYWHERE on these routes so that even when the grass type could be useful, he still faces lots of neutral match-ups! 8th gym is water? Let's give every Pokemon ice beam to remind the player how much better water is at everything than grass. Oh, and some water Pokemon have extremely well made movepools with moves like calm mind, while Treecko learns exactly 0 atk or sp atk raising move, so he always hits like a wet noodle. In gym 2, Treecko struggles to deal damage and takes much more than he can throw. In gym 3 he's got defensive type advantage...yeah but the enemy has 2 steel types and the only fighting move your can teach it has a wonderful...20 power. Why would you even teach rock smash to any pokemon if you weren't forced to use it to advance in the world map? You wouldn't, because strength comes right after and hits for the same damage as not very effective as rock smash when super effective, while it has 4x more damage in neutral match-ups. In gym 4 Treecko's a liability, in gym 5 he's one of the worst Pokemon to use due to his lack of damage (and he's a sweeper) and absolutely non-existent defenses and HP. Detection is the only way it can get past Norman, or dig if you want to deal 15% of Slaking's HP every 2nd turn, knowing you have 10 PP and he has 2 hyper potions IIRC. In BW, the starters suck, the best one for early is fire for type advantage but it still gets overshadowed by any other fire type that is faster than it, like the monkey (Darumawhatever) you can catch to destroy the 3rd gym while preparing it to evolve into Darumacho, a 150% better Pokemon than the fire starter could ever be (speed making Darumacho much more effective at sweeping while its' bulk is still enough to take a hit). The water starter is bland and uninteresting, a poor man's Walrein, but it's decent for a water type in BW where you barely find any decent water type that looks like something you'd like to use in combat (BW has atrocious water type designs for the 1st half of the game). The grass starter is the worst grass type in the whole game, overshadowed by 1 or 2 grass Pokemon in everything it does. Atk? Leavanny does it better with a better movepool and a second stab that can down psychic and dark types which are very common (Leavanny would be an interesting starter). Sp atk? Liligant is everything Sceptile wishes it could be as a grass type, while the 5th gen grass starter lacks any sort of offense. Tank? Good luck with that garbage HP stat and not enough def/sp def to make up for it. There's a reason so few tanks are fast: they need their stats to go to tanking and one damage stat or they're crap. Mudkip actually trivializes most Pokemon games from beginning to end, might need a generic bird to get past Treecko due to speed + 4x effective absorb/leaf blade. Mudkip is the pinnacle of water tanks, only 1 weakness that isn't very common or powerful in-game and that it can later gain coverage against. Compared with Treecko, I wish we had Torterra one generation earlier to slap the game with a tanky physical attacker in the grass starter and didn't need a full team to beat the early game when choosing it over fire or water. With stage 2 that should be ground already instead of waiting t3 for no good reason, learning magnitude at 18 would make it an awesome Pokemon and make it a perfect counter to Wattson, bringing back the grass starter to the gen 1 days where it was the best starter for the 1st half of the game (without having a team to cover for its' weaknesses) and it could even take down gym 4 alone with mid-high diff.

This. I was thinking of the same.

Well said!

You just reminded me about that Critical Hit room where a trainer has the Zangoose and gave him a Dire Hit and spammed Slash. That was PTSD right there.

But how were people supposed to know about Slaking's stats???? Also, while those are clues, they aren't the most obvious clues...

@@TheDeathmail They won't know until facing it, that's just how boss battles in JRPGs work. But when they face a Pokemon that they can't get around or damage well, that requires puzzle thinking. If Slaking is close to the same level as your Pokemon, but you can't withstand its attacks, deal much damage to it, or outspeed it, then the natural thought process would be that there's some factor other than level at play here, and that naturally must be stats. That Slaking can only move every other turn is also a clue, most players will immediately realize that it's a drawback to offset some crazy strength, and that it's something they're meant to take advantage of. And if Slaking's stats are that much higher than your own while being at the same level, then there must be some way to make your own team capable of matching up to it. After having gone through a whole set of gym puzzles about raising stats, that idea is going to be in the player's head. Obviously the clues aren't obvious, if they were obvious they would be bad clues and it wouldn't be much of a puzzle. All things considered, it's a fairly standard method that JRPGs use to create battle puzzles. Most of them even teach the player how to take advantage of basic mechanics with a similar method (in this case, that basic mechanic is stat boosting/lowering).

Same but I had Treecko

Fighting Norman with secptile (in sapphire) was though. Still beat him in the first try i think ; or not, can't remember really...

Well, I didn't use Dig/Protect strats, but I brought three fighting types (Hariyama, Breloom and Combusken).

I first played with oras and didnt have issues with him either, but retaliate was a huge jumpscare

Played both S and E but don't remember that they were different with the gyms.

I definitely agree with this. You find quirks like these in the first three gens which I find more enjoyable. I mean even the valued special splits while being good game design has come along with a streamlining of gameplay quirks. I dont have a full thought on this, but my gut feeling is that I enjoy these quirks more than a balanced and streamlined experience. Ik I come back to play gen 1, 2, and 3 the most

There are two other examples. The first one is Ultra Necrozma, who is just Slaking on steroids. A fight that really force you to strategize to get through. (All of USUM is pretty good on that regard with fights that are more interesting than usuals) The other is Challenge Mode BW2. Challenge Mode Cheren forces you to really uses all your limited resources to get through it.

You just z move ohko them. It is entirely impossible for single mon bosses in gen 7 to have any form of difficulty and that includes ultra necrozma

​@@ultimaterecoil1136Not a lot of people rely on Z-moves (or conventional teams), some Totems are difficult, and can tank Z-moves decently at times. While I didn't necessarily struggle I did not have an easy time beating them with the Pokémon in battle.

@@Magma-Idiot-2001 every single one barring mimikyu can be one shot depending on the mon/move used. And mimikyu it’s not that they are bulky it’s that they just always live 1 hit.

@@ultimaterecoil1136 was your team higher leveled than them, cause I remember having my ass kicked (Multiple times) to several of the Totems.

@@Magma-Idiot-2001 not really. It’s just that some of the mons you get like the trade hawlucha for example with maximum possible attack between its iv and nature are just that strong

Ah yes, the ol skill swap wombo combo. Got really into doubles in gen 6 and had a magic bounce xatu I'd use for that. Best part is when you're opponent gets preoccupied with slaking and forgets you still have a xatu that can skill swap truant on to them.

Thank god it doesn't make you redo all of the five fights before it

I think HMs were made as a way for the player to feel like their Pokemon are helping them even outside of battles, hence why the starters can learn many of the necessary HMs At least imo

i think they moved away from such boss fights because as a game ment for kids you dont want the player to be forced down a path that they might not even know is there.

Im working on a fangame with one boss that almost functions as such It's a trick room team

It would be cool if every gym leader used a strategy, instead of a type. So the first has a type advantage, the second uses weather teams, the third used setup moves, the fourth is toxic stall, etc.

@@MrE987 it kinds feels bleh without true themes. It's part of why I'm doing gyms with battle strats like fairy being TR the ground having a sand setter ect

Must have been a long and painful slugfest with 20 base-power Rock Smash

@@bavarian_mapping + Thief (to deal with its berry) & Rock Tomb. It was slow AF, but it was a good fight.

If you're playing Sapphire, sure. Ruby on the other hand?

@@Going4Broke2528 Sapphire & Emerald

​@@Going4Broke2528only played S and E. Wonder if Mawile has been enough for R players

Not as much as you'd think. I think Onix (in Gen 1 at least...) was meant to try to teach players about the difference between physical and special attacks as well as the value of spending turns not attacking thanks to Bide. Even in Gen 1, Charmander can definitely get past Brock on its own if you ignore the "It's not very effective..." text and keep powering through with Ember and use Growl on Bide turns. The puzzle aspect is actually figuring out what Bide does, because not a single NPC gives a hint about it. If anything, Brock's Onix' design as a puzzle boss is even worse than Norman's Slaking because Bulbasaur and Squirtle are so strong against it that they get to ignore the puzzle entirely.

He made a video about Brock's Onix as well. So yeah but as the point stands. Brock and his Onix are teachers about the fundamentals of the game. You could make the arguement that Norman and Slaking teaches players on how abilities can affect the battle.

Not many content creators used Slaking. Luckily Chugga gave it a big moment in the limelight

Chugga loves using the under used/appreciated Pokémon.

Aides also brought slaking up when talking about balanced hackmons due to it being op without truant

​@@SporianSummiteyy fellow aides viewer

Less and less though (or at least not the same way). That's my main issue with Galar. Most dungeons aren't really that notable. And even the Wild Area is pretty empty. Paldea is trying to adapt puzzles to an open world environment, and the way you get to the Legendaries are interesting for that reason

Reborn and other fangames have some sick puzzles

On my blind UM playthrough, the only thing that got me through the Ultra Necrozma fight was my Alolan Muk. It wasn't overlevelled, it was just immune to Photon Geyser, not hit super-effectively by its coverage moves, and tanky enough to not go down in one hit (unlike everything else in my party at the time!)

@@polwigle Nice. :D I got completely wrecked... and you'd have to travel all the way back when you're going to switch Team-Comp Q_Q The Nuzlocke-Killer claimed so many Souls xD I mean, the fact that those Route-Bosses had competitive Teams with perfect IVs and Moves was also pretty challenging O_O (compared to the slightly weaker versions in S/M)

Came here to say this. Definitely think Gen 7 was another attempt at Puzzle Bosses in Pokémon.

Slaking on it's own it part of a class called Achilles heel mons. Archeops palafin wishiwashi and regigigas all are other ones, just only gigas is on a same degree and Palafin is just not seeming this way cause it's weakness is soo easily negated. I am making a fangame myself and want to make a new cool Achilles heel mon, but it's hard to think of cool things. Just no new ability for slaking truant is his thing

Reverse speed boost. Every turn, you get slower. Maybe attack down instead.

Oh, so a more gradual Defeatist?

I think it should be called “fatigue”

Granted, part of the challenge of the Elite Four is the gauntlet. Once you begin your challenge, you can't leave to heal or switch Pokemon until your challenge concludes - be it through victory or defeat. Whereas with the gym leaders you can bring a full team of six specifically to counter them, the Elite Four require you to bring a diverse team with diverse moves to handle them and the Champion in one go. (or your level 90+ starter if you're that kind of person)

I just caught a ghost Tera Slaking. Can't wait to put it to good use

@Dick_Faggotson judging player intelligence is impossible, but they do scale. The games story and gyms are structured in a way so each gym has it's own plotline to go with it, this way no matter what order you go the games structured like a normal pokemon game asside from wild encounters (as you beat gyms more mons are added to pools, IE Nibian swablu(regional form) you can catch on any route in the rain with a weight of 20, once you get to the point Altaria becomes logical it adds to the pool at a rate of 2 then goes up each future badge you get. This also means once you beat the E4 you can catch any mon in the wild that evolves from a different mon in the wild

I feel that this is moreso a competitive metagame topic compared to a game design one. Most Pokémon nowadays tend to be designed with a competitive aspect in mind compared to the past when they were designed around the in-game campaign. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, since it prevents some “useless” Pokemon from existing, but competitive play dominating so much of Pokémon’s design influence does cause the online community to dismiss the main game somewhat… This isn't to say that I can't make an analysis on the new Pokemon, but I feel that a huge part about it's design revolves around the competitive meta. And without the full context and understanding of the current metagame, such an analysis would not be fully comprehensive. I would recommend you seek out a competitive expert’s opinion over mine. I’m sure Aaron Zheng, Wolfe Glick and other VGC players are losing their mind as we speak.

X items are very cheap in battle

I tip my hat to you. From one glue sniffer to another

@@GoldenOwl_KZfaq bless, keep on busting brother

I don't think any pokemon were specifically meant to be useless, as the "catch 'em all" slogan wasn't even in Japan. Plus, even if they were, that's still bad game design due to the game, as much as it likes to pretend otherwise, being mostly about the battles.

I see your comment, and I raise you an Unown! And Delibird to boot

​@@clanedogg1 dang, forgot about delibird, but delibird is easy to obtain and they attempted to make up for its awful stats when they added abilities an official pokemon guidebook argues that unown is good because you can just catch them until you get one that has a 70 power hp type of one you need for coverage so I think the idea was that they would be very flexible but then they didn't give them stats