I know it's been a long time since Matt presented some fencing on the channel. However, I would love to see Schola Gladiatoria gather some folks, some sparring made katanas and rapiers to present what he described in some of the previous videos. Unfortunately, all "katana vs rapier" sparring videos in the internet have been terrible (in my opinion ofc) so far :(

The blunt edge vs sharp edge part also introduces another point of discussion. Not all rapiers were fully sharpened, some were sharppened only towards the tip down to somewhere in the middle.

You have such nice collection of original historical swords.

What people don’t realize is that the spring tempered blade bends in one plane on the flats. This is not where most sword techniques would have you parry or block, which will be along the edge. So springiness won’t help with edge to edge contact between blades. Both blades will cut notches into each other like interlocking Lincoln logs, with the harder edge digging in deeper.

Matt it would be great if you do a follow up video demonstrating the techniques of Rapier vs Katana and vice Versa. We need to see what both fighters should do to win .

It’s worth noting that katana were tempered after being quenched. So still a comparatively hard edge but not quite so brittle as glass. I can’t think of when this practice started atm and different schools of course teach different techniques. Basically, yes, relatively brittle edges but I don’t want the misconception of an edge so brittle it explodes on first impact.

For a moment I thought you were going to destructive test them😂 Lovely vid and informative as always. Very much hope I see you soon!x

There were some broadsword treaties that recommended battering the rapier to break it. I don't have those on hand at the moment, but what stood out to me was the term battering as beat meant something totally different. Point being it's not just a two handed sword that would break a Rapier. McDonald had a good section in a class he taught a while ago on that, basically you kept out of distance and just smacked the rapierists blade. The key thing for the Rapierist is don't let the blade get hit, you can disengage so fast with the Rapier there is no reason to ever take a strong dedicated hit. This part of the discussion reminds me of the Japanese helmet splitting fetish or people who say you can't receive a blow in St Georges as a strong strike will blow right through the guard. - It's foolish to stand under a falling boulder.

The Miao Dao was known to break when employed against Japanese swords during the Japanese invasion of the Chinese mainland. This was not due to poor steel quality. The Chinese had a very good understanding of the requirements to produce a high quality steel blade, and the Miao Dao was used by elite troops. It had a relatively flexible pipe back blade. This information is from the Guo Changsheg lineage of Heyi Tongbei who developed the second (and primary usage form) for the Miao Dao. As an aside, the original Miao Dao (before a modern shortened version was introduced by Guo Ruxiang) had blade lengths of ~ 48”. Blades based on the modern shortened version (like LK Chen’s) only have a 40” blade length.

You should watch the Hammer film Captain Kronos - Vampire Hunter it has bad sword fighting and a katana vs. rapier 'fight'.

Something people don’t realize is that, with increased hardness is increased brittleness. It’s a trade off, and metallurgists and engineers alike have to gauge the acceptable range of hardness for every application. There are even charts that give you a good idea of how brittle something is compared to hardness.

Its fascinating listening to the both of you go back and forth :D You may disagree, but many of us would consider this learned, scholastic debate thats good for the rest of us who are interested. Hopefully modern, sharpened examples can be tested as a sot of loose proxy!

Matt, firstly, thank you for your content. It changed my mind about many things and deffo helped me in my hobbies, home defense and professional insight (I'm studying to be a federal police officer and your videos helped me know more and get rid of bs regarding knife and machete fighting). Thank you. Secondly, I have a request: Could you make a video with an explanation and insights on why merovingian shields were domed and the functionality of this kind of shield?

Hello! I enjoy each and every one of your videos. There is always a lot of talk about Japanese steel, but never talk about Toledo's steel. It was, probably, the most famous in it's time.

good explanation of the differences between the two types of weapons. You have made your points clearly. Your original point of discussion was in free and unconfined individual contact. Clearly a rapier stopped momentarily in a fixed position could be broken by the impact of a heavy hard edged blade. (as against a wall, rock, tree, or large heavily armored person. ) With a bit of bad luck to the rapier owner. On the other hand even a hard oak staff in the hand of an experienced user has often defeated user of Katana or other swords. Solid contact with a willow switch can be frustrating when carefully held by a mobile opponent.

Very nice of you to let us see a little of whats behind the camera

Love that you are engaging in the back and forth!

Thanks for the video. It was very informative. I have always assumed that a rapier was more likely to snap vice a katana. I am glad to be corrected. Have a good one

About kabutowari: There was one such challenge some 30 years ago. The sword used was made by Yoshindo (said to be fatter than normal katana)[ katana that is fatter than normal swords do exist and is not rare. You just have to commission the swordsmith to make it that way. You can also see some cutter in mat cutting club and special meeting using such fat or broad, big, katana they own. It is not something disallowed.] The martial artist in that kabutowari I met in real life was not a stout and big person. Such activity is rare, as it requires a sword specially commissioned and built for the occasion, a kabuto to be cut for that occasion. It is a money money thing more expensive than mat cutting. Is cutting the head or the helmet some valid move in war? I think so. I personally use a metal cutting sword that I had cut iron with. Can a badly chipped katana still cut well? Yes. I personally own some badly chipped katana. And the katana I own that cut best is one of those badly chipped katana.

I'd really like to know how swords were service sharpened. I'd love to see the process.

Just watched 'Reclaiming the Blade- History of the Sword '. What a surprise to see a rather young and dashing Matt Easton 🙂.

Sounds like a messy hypothetical, I mean we know that some Japanese swords talk about conserving the edge by avoiding biting into the opponents sword. So if we want to cite Thibault as to the need to avoid it I guess it goes both ways. The rapier is also less robust which may give it more flex to absorb force it's not like you are chopping it on a table after all. I think the blades definitely wouldn't come out looking pretty from it but I find it hard to believe either would snap in most cases.

Thank you for always being Matt Easton. Cheers!

Make sense. Instead of performing a killing blow, it's more safe to disable first like attacking the arm/hand; or destroy opponent's weapon to put yourself in advantageous position.

This reminds me of an episode of Zatoichi from 1974(?). There was a small crack in the sword, which reduced the durability to a few more strokes.

Oh, at first I thought it was breaking as in "breaking news"!😂

These are either historical battles we are witnessing, or just great marketing.

Matt, how do you know that at the 16-17th century swordsmith use oil for quenching? I would like to delve deeper into renaissance and early modern metal processing since the emergence of the rapier itself is often attributed to advances in metalurgy, which is logical, but i couldn't find the written source. I do aware the artefacts are there and has been destructively and non-destructively tested, could you point us at a source about this?

What about striking technique? In kendo, we emphasize a snap in the wrist when we strike called "tenouchi" that adds force to the blow. Wouldn't this play a role when the blades clash?

Excellent points well argued.

A response to @LondonLongsword ( kzfaq.info/get/bejne/b8WChKh1mpvXcY0.html ) regarding breaking a Spanish (or other) rapier with a Japanese katana. 3 extra videos each month on Patreon, which hugely helps support this channel: www.patreon.com/scholagladiatoria Facebook & Twitter updates, info and fun: facebook.com/historicalfencing/ twitter.com/scholagladiato1 Schola Gladiatoria HEMA - sword fighting classes in the UK: www.swordfightinglondon.com Matt Easton's website & Pinterest: www.matt-easton.co.uk/ www.pinterest.co.uk/matt_easton/_saved/ Easton Antique Arms: www.antique-swords.co.uk/

Regarding the katana hard edge biting into softer steel, I felt personally addressed! Did you perhaps read my comment on his response video? Fantastic work as always, though I would have loved for your "katana vs rapier durability" analysis to make explicit mention of the katana's stouter thickness+width to length ratio and how this would affect the result.

Hey Matt, on a somewhat similar topic...could you do a video on the Colichemarde?

Great video, but without seeing evidence to the contrary, just going by what I see in the video I'd place that katana as an early 20th century or 19th century example at the oldest. Did you purchase it as an antique, or were you saying that it's a new katana made in the 17th century style?

So, would it be better to just blunt a rapier except for the tip? Also, is the fact that a rapier has less mass an advantage in this regard? (pushed aside rather than be cut into?)

Hey can you speak on the difference in fighting styles with the different blades. I took batojutsu for a bit and ended up getting tasked with teaching "swordplay" in ninjutsu, anything smaller than a bo staff. Hanbo was still taught by sensei. Even though a two handed sword is different from from one handed, still the katana can be wielded by one and is NOT fencing style.

An interesting, yet extremely expensive, experiencial archaeology experiment would be to make a number of swords with similar enough characteristics to Historical pieces and test how resilient are they to breaking in sparring. My hypothesis would be that even those swords would not be particularlly easy to break. Yes, swords break and both Historical techniques and materials make it significantly more likely to have a major weakness on construction that leads into an early breaking, but even then, aiming to break your opponent's Blade would be... Unreliable to foolish. Thus my interpretation of the context of Thibault's defence against a longsword would be more on the side of "do this to have a longer living blade" rather than "do this or your blade is very likely to break"

The gun guys always say velocity beats armour (metal), I can't imagine a person being able to swing a sword fast enough to make a significant cut in another weapon, unless it was particularly crumby or inferior! If the other sword is moving it would increase the impact speed, but Id of still thought the swinger's or opponents wrist would break/collapse first, or even the stance. And the wind up and follow through would have to be huge, leaving you open to being kebabed, possibly by the sword you just broke! Id always thought swords got broken by being trod on or misused, and i wouldn't imagine the primary intent of someone entering a melee was to break the others weapon. Of course I've never held a sword and would probably of cut my own leg off in the within a few minutes of doing so! And this is why i watch your vids, really interesting, excellent discussion, thanks Matt, and Dave to, great content :)

How would a smallsword fair against parrying a sharp sword since it does not have sharp edges? I understand the triangular design gave it an additional parrying surface. Does it make a noticeable difference?

Swords of different weight used by the same swordsman transfer the same amount of force or energy. For the same travelling distance of any heavier sword is not transfer more energy from the same swordsman than if he is using any lighter sword. A sword edge receives a nick (the sharp edge either melted away or chipped when banged onto another sharp hard edge) and this nick no matter how big caused by human force does not cause the blade to break with one other hit usually. [seen in my own experiment with sharp Japanese swords]. People are lying(no matter how friendly some claim . . . to be) when they claim swords break under such situation generally or always. Japanese swordsmiths put a lot of thick clay lines onto their hamon edge producing soft lines called ashi for stopping chips. Therefore a katana can be expected to chip in pieces as long as the length between 2 nearby ashi. From my experience, a chipped edge can still cut and function. Also, from my experience katana with softer back or body cut better or deeper than those with harder back or body. They tend to bend but can be straighten. That does mean they do not break at and after bending. A springy blade such as blades of spring steel or 1055 steel can also bend at high impact or force.

You know, I feel like Matthew Jensen probably has both a katana and a rapier around that he could do destructive testing on. 🤣

Hmm, 60 to 40 HRC is pretty big difference and if the object you hit with that katana is light, there won't be enough shock to damage the blade...

You call the hardened edge crystalline. But I thought iron and such was softer when it was crystalline, and deformities were introduced through work hardening or quenching to make the metal harder.

I would like to see the two weapons going at with highly skilled practitioners.All I've been able to find is mediocre matches.

I think there is a problem particularly when trying to define what a katana is. If we are talking about the type that historically met rapiers then it is a very different sword than one made in the mid and late Edo period. He mentioned a crack in one of his examples and this relates to a problem many Edo period katana had: In this time they were often made with very wide, flamboyant hamon and would have deeper cracks/chips as the softer part of the sword is further away from the edge. Swords of previous eras tended to have the hamon closer to the edge so any crack would be stopped sooner. Edit: Matt actually went over a 19th century British account of a katana receiving a chip in the edge, and that, no doubt, was due to one of these wide hamon of the period (it’s towards the end of the video) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/sNdyfaeo3NKVmHU.htmlfeature=shared 6:32 If we are talking about a katana that would have faced a rapier in the 16th and early 17th century, it would’ve been far longer than the examples he has. They would’ve been within longsword range before being shortened in the 1630s. Matt did mention rapier facing katana but didn’t specify the time period or if it would be against a pirate or samurai which is a very important point, the katana had spread from Japan and had been adopted by various people across East and Southeast Asia. Context is needed. 8:40 Modern reproductions that are clay hardened consistently fail at adding niku to strengthen the edge. Niku was integral to Japanese swords and is always overlooked. I think it is standard for every togishi to learn it as it prevents the edge from being “glass like” and makes it quite rubust. Not just that, but not every sword school is the same; some also put a thin layer of clay on the edge as well to make it slightly softer. Also, while the softer part of the blade isn’t as hard as the edge, it’s still hardened steel just not to the same extent. I find hard to understand how the perception of them “bending easily” came about when the point of their thickness was meant to prevent from such. Finally, while the katana is overall lighter, the point of balance is typically a bit further up the blade than most European swords so wouldn’t it actually hit the rapier with more force? This is exactly why it is difficult to both spar safely with a katana substitute while also getting an authentic feel of its balance. Ik this is ranty but it is just frustrating when Japanese swords/swordsmiths are made out to be one homogenous thing of extremes with no diversity and without context. I always like the extra bit of caution and care Matt takes when talking about European swords but it seems absent when talking about Japanese ones.

I was hoping this was a follow up to the old video where you beat the living hell out of a rapier to try to break it.

You know if they ever make lightsabers…these debates will never end regardless..😂😂😂😂

Looking forward to Dave's next response video

This Rapier has a very beautiful hilt.

I understand your point comparing "civilian" weapons against each other but what about the predecessor of the katana, the tachi which was signiicantly longer than the katana (in extremis up to more than 2 meters of blade lengths) whil using the same production processes as the for the katana? Also, the rapier didn't dominate european swordmanship at all because there were all sorts of longswords around and apparently it all lead to the sabres before "sword time" ended to be replaced by fire weapons, possibly garnished with bajonets.

Is there any translated account of the Japanese reacting to a rapier(or other swords)? I’ve seen european accounts on the katana and it was an interesting read.

Verdadera destreza…

Sparring demo would be visually conclusive; but great video. I have been teached.

Great discussion. Thank you.

The hilt of the rapier is quite ornate and beautiful

Los japoneses en sus crónicas decían de la batalla de Cagayan que se habían enfrentado a diablos. En las filas españolas habían españoles de la península y españoles de Nueva España es decir tlaxcaltecas..

Exactly right about the chipping, I'm going to send you a pick of mine lol you'll think I took it from a museum 😅 great vid 👍 aka kenjutsu sparring.

That's how Japanese pirates have made Ming(before Oda adapts Arquebus) and Lee Chosun soldiers suffer. Despite they have more durable equipments and steels.

Next video: "Could a Rapier pierce through Yūjirō Hanma's skin?"

Community fund rising and public "lottery", that is selecting one unlucky original rapier and unlucky original katana for blade versus blade tests.

if that rapier is made in Spain in that period by a proper bladesmith most probably the sword is built with steel forge welded over an iron core so its more prone to bend than to break it springs because of the sleeves almost like the katana with the softer spine but in all axis because its easier to fix a bended sword that a broken one thats also the reason why most of old tools are on the soft range the steel was rare so you have to make the tools more durable it's not because they didnt know about heat treats they know a lot about heat treatments , they had proper hard tools for especific tasks

Japanese swords before end of WW2 have very varied quality. Those made by poor smiths can be very bad, thus easy to break. Those we see as Art swords are made with more care and tighter tolerance; are more likely to be durable(practical tests proved that this is not always the case. Swords from some famous school broke profusely.)

Super interesting!

Someone needs to make a video where a rapier snaps by the blow of the katana.

Yes Matt, but what if A NINJA handled the katana?

This sounds like a topic for the great Matthew Jensen. I can't think of another living beeing that has broken more blades than that man (in the best and most entertaining way). :)

The Hydraulic Press channel did some edge-to-edge testing of kitchen knives basically to see which brands available to them would fare best. Blade thickness did seem to be a major factor right up there with alloy composition. I’m not suggesting you borrow a hydraulic press to push those two swords against each other mind you, just a data point. The video you’re responding to seemed to me to focus on the tactical similarities between Japanese and European single edged swords more than blade geometry and composition though. So, it seems to me at least that he has a fair point in extrapolating from the manuals to a hypothetical match between rapier and katana. (Of course that assumes that a samurai would fight against a rapier-wielding European the same way a European wielding a single-edged European blade would. Did samurai fight against enemies wielding anything like the rapier before they met Europeans? Did they have their own techniques for doing so, and how similar to or different from the European methods were they?) But wait- as you said such matches are historical, not hypothetical. Have you found any first hand accounts of such fights? Your readings of old newspaper accounts of duels, murders and tomahawk usage were terrific. Surely in all of the early interactions of Europeans and the Japanese, there must have been at least one fight that was recorded and the record has survived.

Beautiful rapier.

Which will snap first? Depends on quality, skill, and luck..

There is a story of some naval battle which really happened (I am not sure if they were Spanish or Portuguese) against Japan pirate ronins (samurais without master), European ships used canons and totaly destroyed most of pirate ships, rest of pirates were totaly destroyed by european spears and halberds, end of story, no rapier needed. 😀 How they fight in movies (edge of sword against edge of sword) is ofcourse wrong, they would destroy their weapons fast, a lot of people were already explaining it, but in actual history, they were trying to block with flat side of the sword. BTW, I am still waiting for some super hi-tech modern sword for zombie apocalypse. 😀

I agree with most of what Matt says, but the rapier is only springy and flexible when striked againts its flat side, which is not what happen when swords strike against each other. Swords strike tend to be edge to edge (or close to that), and the rapier is not springy when striked against its edge. Yes, it's still more springy than a thicker blade, but there's not going to be as much bounce and flexibility as Matt demonstrates when he bends the rapier along its flat side.

My takeaway is that blades are perishable and sometimes break.

Interesting thx

Matt, I always enjoy hearing your commentary, this is a way off topic question, but how is Oscar , your Cat?? I miss hearing an update every once in a while about Cat Easton.

I find the idea that a katana isn't as likely to break a rapier as a longsword due to their lower weight to be quite suspect. While a katana is lighter, it is more forward weighted, hence why it isn't as nimble as people thing. That also means it has more rotational inertia than a longsword of similar weight and that should make up the difference in weight

And so the saga continues.

I'm not even entirely convinced Thibault talks about literally breaking your sword. Here's the Greer translation: "This is what we plead before being accused of having lost our reasons, which are principally founded on the concepts of time and instance; for we admit that he who tries to parry the blows of a two handed sword with a plain sword will find himself deceived, and instead of a sword, will find himself holding a dagger instead." That is the only place that even remotely references sword breaking, and text before and after doesn't make it any clearer - it's all just a "listen to me because I am science" spiel typical for Destreza authors. (Okay, you could be more charitable and say it is constructed like an Aristotelian proof, but that is a tangent here). That text could mean a lot of things - sure, maybe he said your sword will break in a very flowery language, but maybe he said that trying to block a longsword with a rapier is like trying to block a rapier with a dagger (i.e. easy to go around and with a risk of battering through the guard). The only thing we can say for certain is that Thibault is saying that blocks and his standard subjection/atajo aren't a good idea - you need to use a specifically modified subjection/atajo instead. On top of that, the opponent (aka Zachary) never tries to deliberately break the sword of our Thibaulteer (aka Alexander), unless I'm misremembering. There is one chapter dealing with Zachary making a massive cut against Alexander from rear-weighted posta di donna, but all the text says is that Zachary is "aiming a mighty blow at Alexander".

Hmm the Ming smashing sword versus rapier .

Awesome

🇧🇷PORTUGUESE TRANSLATION ALWAYS PLEASE🇧🇷🤺🇧🇷

You've made the claim, now lets see a test. Also you said a sword that could beat a rapier was a Montante, so I assume you are extending that to the Nodachi as well? I do enjoy the back and forth between those with extensive expertise.

By the Grobthar's hammer, any blade can be shattered!

You can still buy tamahagane katana but there really expensive

Hi, my name is Dave and i've had a blade snap while sparring.

Matt, there’s only one way to answer this question. You’re just going to have to bite the bullet and ship both of those antiques to Matthew Jensen for him to break on each other. The only stipulation is that you need to require him to use his “drunken review” voice for the video

Excuse me Mister Spaniard, please allow me to dent your rapier before you stab me to death thrice while I raise my 5 pound piece of iron I call a sword.

I work with metal forming and cutting for years and can felt how a harden steel 60 Hrc tools can eat through 40 hrc or lower steel so I think with a very very good cut a katana can cut through a rapier but it will be very difficult or it will just leave a deep mark. However in a combat it will be even more difficult.

sword designs differed so much from each other because they were invented independently by different cultures

Anyone else waiting for the sign off when Matt is wearing a wig, a fake moustache and sunglasses and is like: "I am not Mat Easton, I have never been Mat Easton, and I'll never be Mat Easton.' 'HA HA!' (Throws costume off)

Touchet Me mate Dave, innit. Forthwith

So….. why not you two meet up and play it out?

Wow he still continues to be Matt Easton. Color me shocked 😂

Why not a "who's stronger, Batman or Spiderman"

I suspect that it all comes down to particular being used in particular ways by people of varying skill levels. Blades and the people using them were not of the same quality.

...if the steels and heat treatments of the day (say 17.th century) were less homogenous, weaker, "efficient" - which I do not doubt, they were -, would the "lesser" katana be better at breaking the "lesser" rapier, than the modern equivalents .....???? I know, the answer to that probably is unknown, for a number reasons. In your opinion, Matt, would the "lesser" materials of the 17. century suffer more (in general, each blade is different, each manufacturer has different skills.., surcomstance...) in the ability to withstand force during parry, OR would they be weaker at striking??? Ie., would the the "lesser" katana be more prone to break itself on impact with the "lesser" rapier than midetn ones, or would the rapier be more prone to break in the clash of parrying????? There are SO many variables. 👍👍

What about breaking an anime sword with a super katana?

So, you're saying that it depends on context?

So, if I understood correctly, what you are saying is, you should get Dave from LondonLongword and Tod from Tod's Workshop, and do some testing to get to the bottom of this.

I wouldn't want to rely on my katana breaking my openents sword... thats not a winning tactic in my experience. 😂