Speaker Break-in - Facts vs. Fiction vs. the Time It Really Takes - SoundStage! Real Hi-Fi (Ep:20)

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soundstagenetwork

soundstagenetwork

Күн бұрын

One of the most controversial issues in hi-fi has to do with component break-in. Merriam-Webster defines break-in as: "an initial period of operation during which working parts begin to function efficiently." In this video, SoundStage! founder Doug Schneider discusses break-in as it effects speakers. He explains why break-in is real, as well as how long it really takes to happen. What he says might surprise you.
#hifi #audiophile #speakers

Пікірлер: 54
@michaelharness3258
@michaelharness3258 Жыл бұрын
I just bought a pair of 4500.00 dollar speakers and they were really gritty sounding so I let the run for 48hr s and I could hear them as they went from gritty sounding to smooth and soft sounding. The speakers are from Tyler acoustic T2 towers.
@chuckmatses6803
@chuckmatses6803 2 ай бұрын
Excellent! Greetings from Boxford, MA
@opporknockitytoots
@opporknockitytoots Ай бұрын
I never used to believe in long breakin either, but experience says otherwise. Some years ago, I demo'ed a Jeff Rowland Concerto Integrated vs. Ayre separates, and liked the Rowland better with my Focal 1027Be speakers, so I bought the Rowland. The dealer had assured me that both amps had been broken in. Since the dealer needed to order a new one for me, he let me keep the demo until mine arrived - about a month. Over the first week with the demo, it started to sound a little dull and thick over the first week. Over the following week, the midrange opened up and it sounded pretty neutral, but didn't have much "air" or soundstage depth, which then developed over the next couple of weeks. Now it sounded even better than when I first heard it. Then MY brand new unit arrived. Long story short is that the new unit went though EXACTLY the same changes over the following couple of weeks. When I discussed this with the salesman, he admitted that he didn't believe in break-in, so he just always told people that everything was already broken in. Why does this happen? I don't know. Can I prove it? No. So what?
@superunknown2812
@superunknown2812 5 ай бұрын
That Per Windler Skate in the background needs to be broken in
@djhmax09
@djhmax09 2 жыл бұрын
I've actually experienced this once not with a speaker, but with a headphone (ZMF VC). Even after a few days it sounded sloppy, loose, and congested. Probably after a week or two did the sound start to come together and tighten up. I have no hard proof of this but just based on what I heard. I didn't want to believe it but maybe there are exceptions out there.
@nychold
@nychold 11 ай бұрын
I would argue that this is psychosomatic more than anything. I don't know how much the headphones you're talking about are (in fact, it's better if I don't know), but my experience with "expensive" headphones is that they are great right from the box and don't get any better, at least significantly. This is over maybe a dozen headphones in the $100-$300 range (all passive, no amplified or noise canceling headphones). Some people buy a pair of headphones, then get "buyer's remorse" when the audio isn't unbelievable or even what they expected for the price. They start to nitpick the sound, the build quality, everything. But after a few days, they get used to the sound, and they begin to sound "better". It's not the headphones changing but your ears/expectations. Not saying this happened to you (again, it's better than I not know so you can make your own assessment of my opinion), but it has happened to me with cheap headphones. I'd buy a pair of $20 headphones expecting something decent, they sound like garbage, and I regret the purchase...but rather than simply return them (not worth my time for $20), I keep using them and eventually, I grow to like the sound they make. They didn't change...I just got used to them.
@tansy007
@tansy007 2 жыл бұрын
Rubber surrounds of subwoofers or passive radiators can really take quite some time to loosen, especially for apartments where loud levels are just not possible at any time. 100 to 200 hours of normal listening levels (around 70 to 75 dba) was what it takes for my own personal experience on subwoofer and passive radiator. In an environment where you can blast loud, would agree that it may just take hours.
@thepickyaudiophile
@thepickyaudiophile 2 жыл бұрын
I remember borrowing an Ampeq SVT 800 bass guitar cabinet, that had been used to amplify regular electric bass in rehearsals and gigs for at least 3 month. I abused it with synth bass for about 6 weeks (rehearsals and a tour of Ireland) and the owner never stopped talking about how much better it sounded after I had given it that sub bass workout. I don’t think we would have even heard about break in.
@sean_heisler
@sean_heisler 2 жыл бұрын
I'm fully in the camp, like Danny Ritchie, that all parts audibly break in. Why? I hear it. I upgrade binding posts, I hear them change. Capacitors, wires, inductors, resistors, drivers, binding posts, RCA jacks, etc. I also believe that the listener's ears are playing a role in the break in, I don't argue with that at all. But the parts break in as well and there's information out there explaining the reasons why.
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
The video does not say certain parts don't break in -- it's more about time. But as far as details why all these parts you say break in -- do you have links that will explain?
@sean_heisler
@sean_heisler 2 жыл бұрын
@@soundstagenetwork Gotcha. Well, the 500 hour thing is not something that I have encountered but I have definitely heard some speakers or components change well over a couple hundred hours. I don't think KZfaq lets people put links in the comments. You can check out Galen Carol Audio, Empirical Audio and Cardas. As an example, as it sounds like you are likely already aware, take wire and caps - a lot of the audible changes there relates to dielectric absorption properties which has to do with voltage retention. Structures within metals change as well. There's a lot of good info out there about it.
@gavriushka
@gavriushka 2 жыл бұрын
So my experience has been heavily dependent on the speakers. Most of them never changed at all even after weeks of playback. However, I got a pair of B&W 603 S2 Anniversary. And I record every single first song I play through speakers, and record that same exact song 2 weeks later to see what’s changed. And this one has significantly changed over a course of entire month. I was actually very disappointed with its sound out of the box, it was shallow, weak and just crappy. A month later, they sounded awesome. Not perfect, but the sound has noticeably changed. And it shows in the recording of the song from first time ever to last time I did one month in. I was shocked. But that was the only speaker ever I had noticed a difference.
@DougMen1
@DougMen1 2 жыл бұрын
Capacitors do need to "form", which is why many guitar amp techs, after re-capping an old amp with new filter caps, use a variac to bring the voltage up slowly upon first use, instead of just slamming them with full voltage the first time
@opporknockitytoots
@opporknockitytoots Ай бұрын
I remember hearing a demo Rega CD player break in over about 1/2 hour - MAJOR change in the sound. I assume it was the electrolytic caps, but who knows? I wasn't there to hear this (or any) CD player, but the dealer took delivery & wanted to see what it sounded like.
@jacrevival
@jacrevival 2 жыл бұрын
I have no doubts that speakers need break-in. To get them there faster (in the audio store where I toiled) we would set a pair of speakers facing each other about a metre apart, hook one up out of phase to the other, grab some of that 'bass heavy' music on repeat (My go-to was usually 'Fat Of The Lamb' - Prodigy), ramp up the gain a fair bit and let 'er rip. The push-pull effect of drivers out of phase sped the break-in period quite substantially.
@TimpBizkit
@TimpBizkit 7 ай бұрын
That's the way - not "I played smooth jazz through them at 65 dB in my bedroom for 100 hours and hear no change!". The out of phase thing just makes it quieter for your neighbours, but if you like it loud you can keep them in phase!
@kmvuniverse
@kmvuniverse 2 жыл бұрын
I love this,so far,this explanation,and that of Andrew Robinson,are the best explanations so far about speaker break in, playing speakers for hundreds of hours,that isn't the speaker breaking in,that's our brain breaking in to accept they automatically now sound awesome, normal speakers mechanical break-in shouldn't if at all,take more than 10minutes, if hundreds of hours of speakers break-in is true,then there should be a huge difference in measurements after 10mins of playing,and 100hours of playing, thanks soundstage,for this wonderful explanation.
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
Exactly! Thanks for your input.
@DougMen1
@DougMen1 2 жыл бұрын
I agree with you Doug. When I listen to KZfaq comparisons of speakers, after a few minutes with one speaker, my mind will often begin to prefer that one, or whichever the last one I heard was, going back and forth, until I've heard both of them enough to really know which one I prefer. And, even then, after a second listen to the whole comparison, I might still prefer the same one, but I might make some different conclusions than the first time, and find them much closer than I originally thought. I may I may not have explained that very clearly, but I think you know what I mean. Aural memory is the least reliable and most fleeting, according to experts on the subject
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
You are correct!
@clearbrain
@clearbrain 9 ай бұрын
Great meaningful video...
@morosso1968
@morosso1968 10 ай бұрын
well said. i bought a pair of focal K2s 2 way component speakers driven with a decent power amp for my car decades ago. out of the box and the first time i played it? i was totally disappointed and had thoughts 'is this the sound what i've paid so much?' had it played for a couple of weeks and let it be with my disappointment but soon after i noticed how they sing better to amazing. with that being said, breaking in with loud speakers was TRUE. my ears just can't lie i should say. moving forward, one of the woofers just died a couple of weeks ago and i bought a new pair. now i'm into breaking it in and it seems getting better indeed.
@HansenMath
@HansenMath 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for posting this. It would be so easy to measure a frequency response change when audiophiles say, for example, “Oh my goodness, at 100 hours the bass extended so much lower.” And like you say, you could never engineer something which changes in perpetuity. I have also wondered as well: all mechanical devices degrade over time; why is “break-in” NEVER for the worse?? Hmmm. The mind is a powerful thing!!!!
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
Indeed.
@mayssebmasenya9132
@mayssebmasenya9132 2 жыл бұрын
I have experienced speaker (or could it be mind break-in) with 2 different pairs of speakers from same company, Paradigm Studio 100v5, and most recently, Founder 120h- it took me a week (playing about 4-5 hours per day) to start to enjoy them. But for some reason I didn’t experience any (significant) difference with the Dali Opticon 8, I liked them from out of the box. It could be just my mind. I’m loving the Founder 120h so much now, after initially contemplating returning them, and I plan to keep them for at least 20 years (I told my wife forever, 😉).
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
The Founder 120H seems like an outstanding speaker. We have a pair here.
@paulnuyens4207
@paulnuyens4207 Жыл бұрын
I'm a wedding DJ and mechanical Engineer. In pro-audio this never comes up. I've never in my 30 years had a DJ say, these are great speakers, I can't wait until my 8th wedding when they will sound their best. If I was told by a manufacture that I needed 80 hours of break in before they sound there best, for my business and livelihood, I'd tell them to go fly a kite and I am going to buy their competition. If the manufacturer was serious about speaker breaking you would get specific instructions on how to do it. What SPL do you need to run the speaker at, for how long, what frequencies? No speaker company that I know of does this. Why, because it's not a thing. They just give you some vague BS about running them for 80 hours and then the at the 81st hour the magic happens. If a driver needs any break in it will happen within the first few seconds at the factory when tested before it ships.
@TimpBizkit
@TimpBizkit 7 ай бұрын
Well what happens is the competition will lie to you. So you are just buying the liar's speakers. Although a speaker that hasn't been broken in is still perfectly usable - just the bass and lower midrange will be a little weaker and the tweeter won't change (in mine, the tweeter is a compression driver with a plastic membrane and no appreciable suspension meaning there is nothing to loosen). Plus pro audio speakers usually get used loudly enough that this changes in a couple of hours. My Kappalite 3012lf drivers loosened up nicely. You might just be making subtle EQ changes like bringing the bass down over time. That's what happened with mine - the bass sensitivity went up and I just kept reducing the crossover gain.
@nigeltufneljunior
@nigeltufneljunior 2 жыл бұрын
interesting video!
@chrispicquet733
@chrispicquet733 Жыл бұрын
True speaker break in is usually only about 10 to 50 hrs.just to loosen up unused stiff spiders and surrounds.
@squidcaps4308
@squidcaps4308 2 жыл бұрын
What i want to hear from those that believe in extended speaker break-in is what happens after that 500 hours... doesn't that mean that the speaker is only good at hour 500 and then gradually worsens.... Using their logic the speaker has relatively narrow peak performance and need to be replaced regularly. And yet, the same people can buy 25 year old speakers without thinking twice.
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
Good question!
@TimpBizkit
@TimpBizkit 7 ай бұрын
Pink noise is a fairly crap signal for speaker break in. You have to push it to extreme volumes to get much speaker movement and then the tweeters and mids will probably complain. Once I turned it up very loud and it looked more like applying DC to the woofer e.g. it moved outwards and stayed out. Just use some bassy dance music and crank it to Xmax. If you live somewhere you need to be quiet, use a lower frequency sine wave or hook the speakers out of phase facing each other. I had some 6 x 9 car audio speakers that actually sounded tighter and punchier before the break in (in the ported box I had designed) which might be a preferred sound to some, but playing them loud gave more deep bass after a while, although some of the punchiness did suffer.
@mastersoanes
@mastersoanes Жыл бұрын
thank you
@redking8585
@redking8585 Жыл бұрын
I think it's possibly that your ears get used to the speaker, or maybe it's a placebo if you know about the break in or someone suggests it.
@ohiphotopro
@ohiphotopro 2 жыл бұрын
How does forming of capacitors in the crossover circuit fits in to changes that someone may experience with sound of the speaker?
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
Good question -- but it's also never been shown to be something of an issue.
@BopKitBill
@BopKitBill 11 ай бұрын
Don't have a comment re HiFi but many guitar amp speakers benefit dramatically from break in.
@stevenoconnor5693
@stevenoconnor5693 2 жыл бұрын
I’ve experienced it myself a level of break in I would say after 50 hours
@mikehuntington4440
@mikehuntington4440 2 жыл бұрын
Same old arguments....no proff anywhere. I work-in my speakers for at least 200 hours because the sound changes to something I like more. I don't need proof, that's what I hear. Prove to me that one pair of speakers sounds "better" then another....you can't, they just are to you. Anyway, if you can't hear a difference, great....as long as you tried it for yourself.
@JDCsounds
@JDCsounds 8 ай бұрын
The shop I got my car speakers from didn't want to retune my system for a year claiming I needed time to break in. Now they're out of business...🤷🏻‍♂️ guess they should have done what I asked them to do instead of pushing folk wisdom.
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 8 ай бұрын
Indeed
@greyhound9967
@greyhound9967 2 жыл бұрын
I'm glad you made this video and agree with it 100%. I chuckle every time I see such ridiculously long break in recommendations. It's 100% brain burn in. A manufacturer that suggests super long break in times is a bit of a red flag to me.
@user-ge9rw6ug3c
@user-ge9rw6ug3c Ай бұрын
Capacitors in crossover behave differently too when new ... not all, but some.
@astra004
@astra004 2 жыл бұрын
Even if drivers change their behavior during the first phase, why always to the benefit of the owner?
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
VERY good question. Why don't products break in and get worse? That supports the idea that long-term break-in effects have more to do with conditioning the mind.
@thepickyaudiophile
@thepickyaudiophile 2 жыл бұрын
The only way to know is to do objective and subjective comparisons of 2 copies, one burned in the other not. Certainly several electronics designers believe strongly in break in. They have access to multiple copies of the same circuits, in various phases of break in, so if anyone they should know (Unless they are lying to us, but I generally don’t believe that’s the case). I rotate multiple pairs of speakers and it’s always funny how a well used speaker thats been benched for several months, sounds just terrible for the first minute or two.
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
A minute or two does not seem surprisingly -- 200 or 300 or 500 hours is what's questionable.
@thepickyaudiophile
@thepickyaudiophile 2 жыл бұрын
@@soundstagenetwork Sure, a minute or two for speakers that are already well run in. I do play below 65-70db measured from 2 meters away in a small room, so in my case break in “from new” might be a longer process 🐌 🙂 I really do think reviewers should take the time to do the suggested comparative test for a range of component types before speaking on the subject with authority. Without this it arguably becomes a bit too much just belief/opinion and I personally see little reason to trust this pow over that of the person who believes they do hear real changes over a long period. Just my 2C 🙂
@soundstagenetwork
@soundstagenetwork 2 жыл бұрын
@@thepickyaudiophile We polled our writers internally before this video was released. Everyone unanimously agreed with what Doug said in the video. With that in mind, all of them said they'll run the speakers for a couple of days before they'll get down to serious listening, which is usually then done over the next couple of weeks.
@user-ge9rw6ug3c
@user-ge9rw6ug3c Ай бұрын
Check the loudness limit of a new pair of speakers, they make cracking or blurring sound ... but once used for a longer time .... they can go a lot louder and those annoying sound is gone. So, they do change over time and after many plays.
@dougschneider8243
@dougschneider8243 Ай бұрын
I've never heard any speaker make a cracking or blurring sound. Ever. As for "a longer time," what do you called "a longer time"? I call it minutes...
@user-ge9rw6ug3c
@user-ge9rw6ug3c Ай бұрын
@@dougschneider8243 New, and when they played to the loudness limit ..... new, they do not play very for loudness.
@dougschneider8243
@dougschneider8243 Ай бұрын
@@user-ge9rw6ug3c I have to say that it's never happened to me. I mean, I won't judge a speaker for a few minutes, but, as explained in the video, when a good speaker has been played for just minutes, the suspension is loosened up. Furthermore, many companies run in drivers at their factories, so the consumer really doesn't have to play them hard.
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