Square Grand Piano Talk (ep.1)

  Рет қаралды 2,338

Nick Reid

Nick Reid

Күн бұрын

Here is give a brief lecture about square pianos. You will see and hear an unrestored Waters and Sons Square Grand piano from 1877, which has its original key heads, ivory and ebony keys, and an original damper system. This piano was an heirloom dating to 4/5 generations. Please enjoy this video! And please, reconsider not tuning your square piano to A440 as that pitch didn’t exist until around 1930. Your tuner might go with a standard pitch, however historically the instrument was brought down a tad to 435, like the French used. Enjoy!

Пікірлер: 50
@cdllc1956
@cdllc1956 2 жыл бұрын
I have a old upright piano from 1896! It sounds wonderful and strong
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
I've noticed that the older uprights sound EXTREMELY good!!!
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@nickreid5613 That is true, most old pianos will sound good because the wood has dried out and aged making it easier to vibrate and giving a richer tone. Old uprights are quite a bit taller than the ones produced now days. The tallest uprights made nowadays are 54 inches tall, the tallest uprights in the early 20th century were 60 inches tall, 6 inches more and I suspect the strings in the bass were at least 3 inches longer, maybe more.
@meganandvik3089
@meganandvik3089 2 ай бұрын
My husband and I have just purchased a square grand. We will pick it up in a couple of weeks. I'm guessing we will have a sharp learning curve to do repairs ourselves. As you said, it seems few people want to touch these beauties to repair/restore them. But we are already dedicated to it after checking it out last week.
@catrionahall8435
@catrionahall8435 8 ай бұрын
After 25 years with a Victorian cottage piano from 1845, I found an amazing tuner who worked on it for me and made it enjoyably playable. It was not inexpensive but worthwhile for me. You are a long way from here (Australia) but give it time and keep asking. There are people who can do it.
@p.wesleyburrowsjr6576
@p.wesleyburrowsjr6576 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for sharing. I have one too. Its very difficult to find anyone to tune it or work on it. Every square grand I have heard has a slightly different sound. I really like them.
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
YES!! I find that they all sound a bit different because the history is and knowledge is missing from us now. I have many tips if you need help with tuning or regulation on it.. depending on where you're located I could even do it myself. The thing that's the hardest with these instruments is that they're strung in the back, left to right--which in turn makes for a huge strain on your back.. In terms of regulation it's extremely difficult because the action is just SO BIG and curved! I'll be making more videos about my piano soon, it sucks because I don't live with it anymore.. (it's at my parents house while I'm trying to get it to my house). I'd love to hear your grand! I'll add, don't tune it to standard pitch, you may damage it as it wasn't designed to play at that tune! :) Contact me if you need more info! I can give you an email if you respond to this thread! :)))
@emojijoyio
@emojijoyio 4 ай бұрын
7 months later we are finally try to get my spinet piano tuned
@michaeltreadwell777
@michaeltreadwell777 Жыл бұрын
I've just found your channel by chance and left comments on other videos before I found this one ! I'm heavily 'into' Pianos - since the age of 5 - now 68 ! I have a 1927 Dale Forty Player Piano - had it nearly 28 years now, and I LOVE it. Old Pianos have such a good tone to them. Well done with your channel, I'm now a subscriber and look forward to following you. Thanks - take care, from England.
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
I too feel this way with the piano! One of, if not my favorite instrument to own!! I plan on uploading some more videos on here of it, I have MANY more to share!!!
@sidewaysbeard7606
@sidewaysbeard7606 9 ай бұрын
I love these old square grand pianos, sadly they are hard to tune and costly to restore as they have been obsolete since the early 1900's. The upright kind of took over more and more towards the late 1800's. So parts etc is hard to find or have to remade completely. This piano has been well taken care of over time, and has a great sound for a square piano. :)
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 8 ай бұрын
Yes, the last of the squares were produced as late as 1905, and at that time uprights were far more fashionable. However, if you look at a square construction, it has the same length strings as a baby grand. And is a fraction of the size. The bass strings on this one were over 6ft in length, which gives it an incredible bass tone
@snafu313
@snafu313 Жыл бұрын
A little clarification. A440 pitch was made the standard in 1927. At that time many of the American pianos had already been made to be tuned to that pitch for some years. European pianos tended to be tuned to A435 (at one point in my life I had a German upright piano from approximately 1910 that was tuned to A435 and it sounded weird because it sounded a half tone low. It also had 85 keys rather than 88, another European standard). IMHO as far as square pianos are concerned, there's a reason (and probably several) that they want out of fashion about 1890 or so. They may look great, and they are great conversation pieces, but as instruments, they leave more than a little to be desired.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
I agree, I dislike the early german pianos a lot because of the shorter scales, the ugly cabinets and the disgustingly hard to work with birdcage actions.
@snafu313
@snafu313 Жыл бұрын
@@PiotrBarcz I happen to like those ornate cabinets, but then again there's no accounting for taste. My father was a piano tuner/rebuilder/technician for years and he absolutely hated working on those old birdcage actions.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@snafu313 Yeah, you have to do some ridiculous maneuvers to get mutes in. I've taken the damper assembly off before, I have the to say, the design is straight forward but it's just too wacky to be feasible.
@danreder2399
@danreder2399 6 ай бұрын
This is so cool to see thanks for sharing. What’s the name of that waltz you played I love it.
@josefprinc3613
@josefprinc3613 2 жыл бұрын
I thing if this piano holding in tune and soundboard and bridges are in good condition you dont need to restore whole piano in your case if you found piano technician that will know how to tefurbish action and regulate it that would be something like good solution on budget for you Btw I am from europe and I personaly feel same thing with piano technicians but instead of square pianos we have vienesse grand pianos ( pianos with vienesse action ) every technician will say you dont buy it and people like me are like hmm mahagony veneer , turned legs , crispness of crisp music stand ,candle stands and under mark of maker on fall board :für gräfin von Buguoy And Now Iam in very nice situation when piano technician saying you no dont buy it this need soundboard shimming repining and action refelting And Im like oh ok I very understand you But I need this piano
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 2 жыл бұрын
It’s a shame people don’t see the beauty in older instruments and I feel sad when people don’t want to restore history. I love my piano so much.. but I think im going to have to sell it. I just don’t have the space for it currently and I can’t afford the storage units. I just learned how to regulate an action, and I did some pretty good work on it a few months ago, it needs another regulation! It’s hard! They’re also… very, VERY large
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@nickreid5613 Here are reasons why technicians don't want to have anything to do with these: 1. Because they don't know how 2. If they do then it's most likely hard and tedious enough that they say the hell with it and refuse the job 3. They don't have the materials to do the work because the materials have to be made by hand or by a specialist who is too expensive to hire 4. The pianos are almost always beyond repairable condition because they were left in a barn for 23 years and were subjected to harsh temperature and humidity swings which destroyed the soundboard and pinblock making it simply not feasible or sometimes impossible to do any work to ever get the pianos playable again
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
@@PiotrBarcz well, mine is still surviving. I must be the only tech for these pianos, kind of sad and shocking.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@nickreid5613 Yeah, it's unfortunate. I wish companies would produce these again, just with some obvious improvements like stronger frames for standard pitch and maybe damper systems that you don't need an engineering degree to take off of the piano to tune it!
@TheShamwari
@TheShamwari Жыл бұрын
I would cover those old hammers with KEVLAR tape , just strech it tight over ths felts. I have done this to my 1930 Brock and the sound is great and felts will nolonger wear.. Just super glue the ends of tape and pull tight over felt, noglue on actual felt.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
uuuuuh, Kevlar tape on felt hammers? it would be better to replace the hammers at that point, isn't Kevlar hard? How would it not produce an insanely tinny sound?
@TheShamwari
@TheShamwari Жыл бұрын
@@PiotrBarcz No, Kevlar feels the same as cotton.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@TheShamwari Oh wait, that's right, my bad. I just remember kevlar cloth soaked in resin making it hard, that's what I had in mind xD
@colmoleary8441
@colmoleary8441 Жыл бұрын
These wonderful instruments are glorious to play. They went out of fashion because people didn't know how to tune them or regulate them and to replace the keys is more involved than just pulling out a hammer and replacing it so most technicians didn't like them. I've fount that the other common complaint "they really can't be tuned" is rubbish. If your pin block hasn't been cracked by some over enthusiastic tuner they can most certainly be tuned, and they can hold their tuning. My 1795 broadwood square which I restored in 2011 hasn't been tuned since 2012 and it's still vaguely in tune. I'd stay away from those companies that advertise on you tube. you need it restored, not gutted. A lot of them tell you it needs this and that replacing because they can and it all adds up to $$$. replacing a shank is the easiest thing in the world and doesn't require any special skills. Just some animal glue and hot water to dissolve the glue. Good luck with it.
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for this comment! I can assure you i know how to tune it now. It’s upsetting that no one cares about these older pianos, most assume they are junk. I can regulate, tune, replace.. you name it. But I dont live where my piano is anymore so it’s hard to do work on it when not in my presence
@colmoleary8441
@colmoleary8441 Жыл бұрын
@@nickreid5613 it is upsetting as you say. Luckily I’ve got a small collection of early instruments in storage to restore so that should see me out. I’ve restored a 1798 broadwood which involved removing the warps from the keyboard keys which were quite badly twisted and making a replacement stand using hand tools It’s most interesting part is the mop head escapement and the brass peacock dampers. Anyway good luck with your piano.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
The Antique Piano Shop is known for restoring square grands. The restoration process literally means that whatever can be replaced is replaced. The gutting isn't as horrible as it sounds, the action is taken out, the keys are taken out, all the felts are replaced, all the hammers are replaced, the strings are replaced and then everything is put back together, regulated and tuned and you have a square grand that will sound like it did when it came out of the factory.
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
@@PiotrBarcz if I could afford 22k on my piano, I would..
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@nickreid5613 Yeah, I have the same problem, there's a square grand at a tavern that I would like to restore, not gonna happen though because I don't have the money.
@pian1sticpeng_in
@pian1sticpeng_in 9 ай бұрын
If a clavichord grew up and matured.
@emojijoyio
@emojijoyio Жыл бұрын
So first came the clavichord then the clavichord gave birth to square grand piano then square grand gave birth to different upright and grand pianos
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
Essentially, yes. The square piano originated around Germany is as early as 1740-1750. But by 1860 in Europe they started to disappear. United States kept them until the turn of the 1900’s, however there was a clever trick--they were far more compact than a grand piano. Uprights were advertised heavily because they didn’t take up as much room, and in some cases they were so tall that the bass strings were longer than most baby grand pianos which made them have better tone. Square pianos held every note and could sound just that, grand. But the market died out and smaller pianos became the norm.. these old instruments are rare and hard to come by in any playable conditions such as mine in modern era.
@emojijoyio
@emojijoyio 11 ай бұрын
Im coming back to this video 5 months later we have another piano its more out of tune it almost a half step out of tune because some times some note will sound like the note before and the other one will sound more like what it intended to sound
@blainecoffee
@blainecoffee 2 жыл бұрын
What do you tune it to then? 436?
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 2 жыл бұрын
It sits around A430 most of the year. Historically speaking they’d tune to 435 around 1880. But standard pitch should never be used for an instrument so delicate.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
A 435 is the correct pitch, any lower and it's going to start to sound bad.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
Just some fact checks from your description, A 440 was used in America a lot since the 1890's, it's obvious because countless uprights that were produced in the 1899 to 1910 years are tuned to A 440, I've played a bunch of them myself, and they hold up just fine at standard pitch. It's the old German uprights with birdcage actions that are tuned to 435. Square pianos were an old enough design that they had to be tuned to 435, 435 was also the other standard pitch at the time in Europe which I'm 90 percent sure is where the square piano originated. They also weren't designed for heavy classical music, they don't have the tone for it, neither do they have the mechanical strength, I strongly advise you not to play heavy music on that piano because you might have another broken hammer shank. Standard A 440 pitch was declared the standard in 1927 I believe after orchestras kept tuning their instruments higher and higher, sometimes to stupidly high pitches like A 458 because the higher the pitch the brighter the music. A 440 I think was a compromise. A 432 was never used as far as a standard for piano tuning as far as I'm aware. Anyway, nice piano, nice to see that it can still play passably and that the ivories are in good shape, those are the first to get wrecked.
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
A440 was developed by the Germans actually, and was adopted by the Americans late 1930~. However, it was Joseph Gebbels (the nazi propaganda head) who ‘persuaded’ the ISO to change the pitch and standardize it. My piano has since been tuned to 435 and it’s holding that quite well. I play anything on this instrument because it was built to last. These things (when protected from the elements) have the capability to withstand anything. The company to produce mine was known to tune their pianos and have them shipped across the country holding its tune. It’s quite controversial I know, but a more relaxed pitch is more enjoyable in my opinion. The piano I play at my church rests at 432 because it has a split bridge and is going to keel any day now. Not to mention, it sounds quite beautiful being over 120 years old. I’ll add-I’m a piano technician myself, and a tuner. I personally like to inform people who have pianos I tune before 1900 to NOT put them in standard pitch. Instead, an equal temperament of 435-438. Close, but just flat.
@PiotrBarcz
@PiotrBarcz Жыл бұрын
@@nickreid5613 Ah ok, thanks for the clarification, I forgot that a Nazi made 440 hz the standard xD That's really interesting that the Waters Brothers piano company made pianos that could hold their tuning even after getting shipped! My player piano actually did that once, it was shipped to Poland from the US and stayed perfectly in tune, just 5 hz higher in pitch, 445. Oh and I had no idea you were a piano technician, I imagine you've got happy customers :D
@BennyCadillac
@BennyCadillac Жыл бұрын
Does yours have the leather wrapped hammer felts in the treble section?
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
Yes! And this is something I'm trying to figure out while I get them re-faced... It splits at G 4...
@emojijoyio
@emojijoyio Жыл бұрын
I see square pianos are very rare but my piano sounds out of tune a little it's a spinet piano I think and brand name is gulbransen piano
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
Well, a square piano won’t be tuned to the same as your piano as they weren’t designed to hold that much tension… you may need to call your local tuner to bring it to where you want it!
@emojijoyio
@emojijoyio Жыл бұрын
Mine is a = 435
@emojijoyio
@emojijoyio Жыл бұрын
My c3 sounds more in tune then c4 and a4 sounds the same like ur piano I think the lower notes of my piano is more in tune
@nickreid5613
@nickreid5613 Жыл бұрын
That may happen.. older pianos don’t like holding tighter pitches, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to tune it. You may need to tighten the pins, or have an adhesive added which makes it hold pitch much stronger. Most of the time if you’re tuning yourself, you may want to bring the c4 pitch a bit over your c3 and it may ‘fall’ into pitch.
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