One detail that is also subtle is that down under Shadow Keep, on the path to Rauh, player will cross a section filled of jars enemies. The thing is, it looks like a 'hospital', where Messmer tried to undoing the Hornsent's atrocity, by trying to separating the bodies apart from the jar.

unalloyed gold makes more sense now if you think of the merging of flesh as an alloy

Oh golden one to whom were you so angry. I'd say not just the hornsent but also herself after realizing she was no better then them.

Because of Relanna, we know that Messmer's invasion came after the joining of the Carians and the Golden Order. So Merika's betrayal must have happened before that. My guess is that Merika was the first "saint" to come from the jars, but instead of allowing the Hornsent to ascend, she took power for herself and abandoned the Hornsent out of spite. Eventually sending her son and his armies to burn everything.

I saw a video, can't remember the name or the channel. But they theorised that Marika was in fact a successful Saint, hence why the Hornsent we meet in the game talks about her actions as a betrayal instead of revenge. Can also explain why in the first trailer for the game we see Marika's skin cracked and why Marika and Radagon are one person.

After learning the lore: “Oi, Messmer. You missed some of them.”

Me: "Elden Ring lore couldn't possibly get darker or more disturbing..." SotET: "Watch this..." 😬

The fact that Marika left behind a Minor Erdtree and her Golden Braid behind in her home village is some rare show of compassion from the distant, uncaring persona she displayed during the main game. There was no-one left to save there, but she still left those items behind perhaps as a promise from herself she would create a new world where this kind of thing would not happen again. But of course, that all went to hell. The genocide of the Hornsent and everything else supressed by the Golden Order just goes to show it's all a cycle: a cycle of violence and vengeance going round and round and round again. And no wonder the Omen and anything esle Cruicible-related was heavily suppressed: it reminded Marika of her own trauma. But the fact she had so many cursed children is probably due to her own betrayal. Also ironic is that the word 'Bonny' is slang referring to something cute or nice...but Bonny Village is anything but.

Watching this while fighting for my life on the toilet Edit: after 20 excruciating minutes, we survived boys 🗣️🔥🔥

10:59 why is everybody saying it is a "carving"? it is not a carving, but ppl turning into trees. Here some tree relations - First: Shamans have the ability of grafting Second: St Trina lower body looking like a plant and Malenias blood blossoming into treelike flowers Third: Seedlings growing out of her Grandmothers body connecting to the Tree behind her and we see another beheaded body in Bonny Village, in a less finished state My theory is, Shamans were able to grow trees when they die, merging with the tree in the end. Body in Bonny Village is probably Marikas Mother, because of O Mother emote. Other possible connections: trees in Enir-Ilim are people turned to wood and tapestry in Leyndel depicting people growing out of trees

So basically Marika was a broken person, and when her blessed child Godwyn the Golden was murdered this caused Marika to snap and revolt against the Greater Will because she thought it failed to protect her family from death????

There are 2 kinds of potentates, just like the are 2 kinds of jars. The jars of the Land of Shadows were tools of horror and oppression, used for religious reasons. The jars of the Lands Between were automated dead collectors that delivered the dead to the Erdtree for rebirth. Rather different.

You know I feel like a good thing to look up is asnbach and his relationship with mogh along with what mohg might have been like

i actually really love the detail of marika’s missing piece of hair being the golden braid we find in the shaman village. i’ve always noticed it but didn’t think too much about it before the dlc.

Because of the note at the very top of the Suppressing Pillar, we know the land of shadow was once part of the Lands between, and at some point Marika Severed it from the lands between. Likely to seal Mesmer and other undesirables from Marika's Age of Golden Order.

A wild theory popped into my head: what if Marika convinced the hornscent and other shamans to build themselves into the gate of divinity? Perhaps she was told how to make it by the fingers and she made the plans to seduce everyone into making her a god by building Enir-Elim and the gate of divinity out of themselves, that’s why it’s two pillars because it may resemble fingers communing with the gods. She then betrayed them by sending Messmer out to commit genocide on the hornscent out of spite. Probably wrong but fun to throw stuff out and see what others think about it.

So the way I see it, the Numan came to the land of shadows via those giant coffins that looked like ships. Later settling with the last remnant in the land of shadow in the village of Shamans. Then we figure the remaining Numan went to the Lands Between. Becoming what we call the Nox.

I think the whole lord’s soul bit is an over-complicated interpretation. the secret rite scroll says “a lord will usher in a god’s return,” so likely meaning the consort must summon their god back to corporeal flesh once ascended, “and *the* lord’s soul requires a vessel” most likely this is referring to how the promised lord of Miquella had died and needed Mohg’s body to return

I think Marika isn't just a Shamen. She is the perfected Saint created from the Jar Ritual. This means she is literally a creation of all her people and a saint worthy of being an empryan. It also explains how she "betrayed" the hornsent to become a god because they thought she was their Saint. Also, could explain how Radagon is Marika. Marika is literally created from multiple Shamen. It's also why she attacked the hornsent. She carried the hatred of all of her people.

All she ever wanted was to save her people but in the end there was no one left and never came back.

Ooo. Please do the rot priestess. I found it cool how she was in the trailer before she turned all buggy

After playing the dlc I can’t help but feel sorry for marilka even after all the bad stuff she did

What the Hornsent did to Shaman people torturing, killing, and stuffing them in to jars turning them into a body horror, i feel sorry for Marika for the trauma that she's been through and last of her kind. I too feel wanna hug her for all she's been through 😢❤

The Lands between... Makes one think there might be a third realm we don't know about yet.

When ascending to godhood, did Miquella take a page from not just his mother but also his half-sister Ranni? Didn't Ranni divested herself of her body to sever ties with the Greater Will & free her fate to be her own? It sounds like she just stopped one step short of what Miquella ended up doing. @16:30 If Miquella did indeed divest himself of his body (like Ranni) while also needing a lord & a vessel (like Marika) then it seems to me like he attempted a revised process built off what had been attempted before.

I'm pretty sure that Marika was a very important person before she created the Erdtree via the Divine Gate and sealed the Shadowlands under the Scadutree. Why else would there be statues of her plastered all over the Shadowlands, every single one of them decapitated? The Hornsent built those statues in her honour but then she betrayed them, possibly by misusing the Divine Gate under false pretenses (quite unlikely she would get on top of the tower if she had betrayed them earlier), so they defiled her statues. I'm even inclined to think that Marika was the one successful ascension of a Saint via jar rituals and thus the Hornsent believed she would act on their behalf.

I use to think Marika was a villain. Now, I just wanna give her a hug.

I'd like to think this jar thing that the hornsent came up with came about because of the giant coffins filled with putresence. The putrsence is what is left in those giant coffins of life, it is very similiar to the mimic tears and i think putresence was the inspiration for them too. Putresence is basically an ooze of DNA where all life was mixed in all together, and DNA as double helix is sorta like the Crucible which gets talked about as a spiral in the dlc. I don't know how life crawled out of the coffins first but the putrid knight being there means it's possible for other life to have emerged from it before, becoming the source to a bunch of life in the land between. I'd like to think of the giant coffins as like sci-fi seed ships which held genetic information in forms of dna but somehow the long journey through space and crash landing resulted in a bunch of organic mass in the coffins/ships. The hornset basically wanted to recreate their origin story of a container, the ships, housing a mass of life which then resulted in jars and putting life back into a giant mass.

Do you plan on covering metyr the mother of fingers?

It's impossible to pinpoint the exact start of the war between the Golden Order and the Hornsent, however, i have a strong suspicion (from the wording in the trailer and cutscenes in the game) , it preceded the war of the Giants and the war of the Dragons. In fact, the Giants may actually have been allies of Marika against the Hornsent, seeing how they worshiped a god of fire. And seeing how Messmer wields a curse of fire, this deity may be at least partially related to his parentage. A story of seduction and betrayal they say, could it be Marika seduced the ancient god of fire, to help her fight the Hornsent, thus betraying her homeland, but later also betraying that god, by fighting the Giants, in order to eliminate the only threat to her Tree. Double betrayal. As for the pots, yes, shamans were used to make them, but not only shamans, it would appear criminals and outlaws were used to make them, but shamans were used as "binding tissue" to make the ritual more likely to succeed. A ritual that would allow a criminal to be reborn, and "repent" to a new "life" of sainthood. Shamans were a means, an expendable material for greater good. So that not only great warriors, but even the lowliest of criminals could ascend. A genocide was performed upon them, for the benefits of their prosecutors. All this, would explain the mysterious absence of Messmer and Melina from the Golden Order and the line of succession. Those hadn't really taken shape yet, when they were born, children of the flame, children of betrayal and this children of the curse. The first to come. As for "Kindly" Miquela, he abandoned all chance for a merciful deity when he cast away St. Trina. This would in the end trade one god for the other, not necessarily a more merciful one. In fact, in all likelyhood and in regards to Miquella's history of manipulation, one far more sinister then Marika ever was, most likely one that would never strike at his own creation if at some points it proves faulty.

Kind of interesting is that Maliketh may have been present in all this. Consider his armor is black and gold like the Messmer black knights.

Hornsent got what they deserved. Long live queen Marikka.

I love how the perception of Marika went from, “she’s a ruthless tyrant god Queen.” To “she’s a survivor of a genocide and a broken woman.” Ultimately I don’t think any of us would have done anything different if we were in Marika’s position, I know I wouldn’t.

Mommy Marika did nothing wrong 😅

Honestly the hornsent getting wrecked by messmer seems pretty justified at this point.

It's worth noting that Marika with her people SET FOOT in the Realm of Shadow (while it was still a part of the Lands Between). They were Numen that arrived from a land or a world affar, later seen as alien, special and divine. Maybe that's why they meld "harmoniously with others".

Marika is my favourite character in Elden Ring, also she did nothing wrong and no one can convince me otherwise

I believe Marika's prayer was to the Greater Will to help her get revenge on the hornsent. The Greater Will obliged and via the Fingers gave her the knowledge to ascend to godhood. The Greater Will probably made her a deal that they would assist her but in return she would have to be the vessel for the Elden Ring. I believe that was the 'seduction'. The betrayal could mean a lot of things. She could feel betrayed by the Greater Will when she finds being the vessel for the Elden Ring is more of a prison. She also betrayed the hornsent by becoming a god and then destroying them. She betrayed her son Messmer by leaving him behind in the Land of Shadow. (side note I believe Messmer fought in the war against the Giants since they are all impaled). She also betrayed the Greater Will by shattering the Elden Ring. Just my thoughts.

I never liked Marika for her banishment of us and her seemingly betraying us at the very end, trying to toss us to the side in favor of Godfrey, but I can't deny that she is very impressive. We never see her outside of promotional material, yet she casts such a crazy large shadow over everything we learn and everything we see. In some ways she reminds me, in terms of her dynamic to the story, of how Livia Soprano functions, and how her memory persists insidiously throughout the run of the Sopranos, with both Tony and Janice becoming versions of her. I think FromSoftware did an amazing job to create a very believable monster, who is much more of a tragic figure than anyone expected. Still, it's sad how many of those around her suffer because of her actions. Maliketh shamed, Morgott and Mogh shunned, Godfrey and Messmer banished, Melina and Godwyn killed, Radagon unable to reconcile himself, Rennala stripped of her sanity and children. Marika most likely had good intentions, but between the fall of those around her, the genocides she ordered and the state of The Lands Between once we arrive, it's clear that she was a failure of a God and a caretaker, and what we learn about Metyr perhaps makes all that sacrifice and turmoil a cruel joke.

Beat the game my first time today lord of frenzy flame ending rip .

I'm starting to think that the Hornsent rituals that involve torture aren't that different from what the Dung Eater was doing.

some people say that "we still don't know what elden ring is about" it is so clearly about cycles and how when one life ends, another begins

I’ve also come to the conclusion Radagon must have come about much earlier than previously thought, and that he is likely part of the mechanism that allowed her to ascend. I’ve lately been wondering if Radagon was actually a separate person in her shaman tribe, thus “the seduction” of the trailer, who she eventually melded with via her shaman heritage. If that’s true, I think “the betrayal” may be that morgott and mogh are both actually sons of Radagon, not Godfrey. It follows the alliteration in the naming conventions (Marika, Mesmer, Melina, morgott, mogh, miquilla, malenia) and that all of the children of Marika and Radagon are cursed. Morgott and Mogh being an especially cruel twist of fate for Marika, as they are omen, which are likely very close to the hornsent. Perhaps then the reason Godwyn was targeted by the Black Knives, people with close ties to Marika, is because to the shaman people, the offspring of Marika and Godfrey was somehow blasphemous as Godfrey was not shaman. Edit: I found your point about eyes really interesting. I now am wondering if Marika took Melina’s left eye to make the seal in Messmer.

Absolutely love that Marika turned into the very thing she hated

Of all the endings in the game, now we know the Blessing of Despair would have been the worst from Marika's perspective. Explains why the Dung Eater in particular was so feared in a world where all sorts of monstrosities exist. His ending is pretty much what the Hornsent would have wanted for the Lands Between following Marika's betrayal.

I wonder if Marika was reborn from the pot? We see her pulling golden strands from bloody flesh, as well as walking through the a bunch of it. If she had already been inside one, it would explain how she got Radagon, why the Hornsent saw it as a betrayal (she was their reborn saint), and it explains why her village was empty.

Probably my fav of your lore videos yet. Answers so many questions beyond even the basic topic.

"It seems likely that Kindly Miquella's new age would fall to the same hypocrisy over time." It already had fallen to hypocrisy. When we find the stone coffin fissure cross, it reads 'here I abandon my love', to which a nearby spirit laments that as the 'one thing he should not have divested', because how would he save the people if he did not love them? Unfortunately, we see the answer riddled in the base game and DLC. Miquella's age of compassion was a lie from the beginning, being that he would compel all to comply. Can one truly call it compassion if you're forced to be such against your will?

I hope that in the future, a film director will create a series based on Elden Ring. Some people complained that having to face Rahdahn again in the DLC made the game feel lazy and repetitive. Personally, I wouldn't mind facing Rahdahn 10 times as long as the lore is fascinating. Sadly, we didn't get the full picture of the lore based only on the main game and DLC.

As much as I love a long lore video essay, you guys have these short/medium length videos down to a science and always have great info on the topic, even if I have already watched 327 videos on it

If we go along with the theory of Marika being a “successful” attempt at a saint with her being merged with Radagon, I feel like it opens up another potential theory/possible metaphor/allusion to alchemy (as ER likes to do). Now, it’s a common understanding that Marika/Radagon is inspired by the Rebus, or Red King/White Queen hermaphrodite figure in alchemy. Going along with this, I think Melina and Messmer are also nods to two alchemical aspects: putrification and purification. The furnace pot item tells us that burning the bodies and the souls of the hornet was called a “cleansing” and so you could argue Messmer equates to the purification of the lands of shadows. HOWEVER, I believe it makes much more sense to see Messmer as being the putrification, with the themes of horror, death, suffering, abyssal snakes, and all that. Now with Melina, I believe it thematically works to see her as equating to purification with how she immolates herself to burn away the erdtree in a form of purification in and of itself, but as well as indirectly releasing destined death to purify the lands between

Hornsents: *literally hunted the shamans to extinction* Marika: *ascends to godhood and returns the favor through Messmer* Miquella's Hornsent: Curse you, Marika! I hereby vow you will rue this day! Those hornsents are absolute buffoons if they thought they could fk around and not find out.

O trifling [grandmother] mayest thou tend thy [village] for eternity

With how the gate of divinity structured, it takes on the same pose that we see the two fingers and plax take to commune with the outer gods. Similar to a tuning fork, in a way.

Ok so I get a better picture now of what the ritual to become a god entices, as it happened with Miquella and Marika: they both shed their flesh piece by piece somehow, then their doubts, their love, their compassion even. But the most important part is, they don't have a phsyical body now, a material one because they're a god. They're just a spirit so they need a Lord that serves like a vessel for them to act in the material world, so they share a body or basically possess it. So Marika and Radagon share Radagon's physical body, as well as Miquella shares Radahn's. And also is the same thing that Ranni kinda did in her quest-ending. She got rid of her flesh, then probably also got rid of her love, her doubts, etc in the form of Blaidd and Iji, and needed us as her consort to enact her will physically. And in a sense I think even Godwyn does this through Fia's quest. I love that it comes full circle somehow.

Ok so i have a bit of a crackpot theory. I think the betryal of Marika was not the crusade but her ascending to godhood and sealing the land of shadows. She likely made the hornsent sacrifice a bunch of their own for her ascension. Seeing this the hornsent grandam cursed Marika and her children as we see from her dialogue. She mentions an omen in her lines which leads me to my next point. The crusade was a reaction to the omen twins. Marika likely thought/learned that the omen curse was from the hornsent. Marika might have thought that eradicating all the hornsent might cure the curse. Seeing how the hornsent had genocided her people and now cursed her sons, she definately felt pretty angry and hence the violent nature of the crusade. In the end the violence meant nothing and it only resulted in her separation with Messmer😢(who i personally think is her favourite child though i know many will disagree lol).

Well at least now we know who Marika was so angry at

Ive been thinking, nit that ive looked much into it either way because id probably disprove my own theory be but maybe the sedyction and betrayal was marika being seduced to think she could build a better society and the betrayal was that it fell to or was intended to be just as awful as the one she wanted to throw off. The kindly has been just as seduced by the idea of being better and helping the broken only to have to build just as terrible a machine to be able to destroy the one he wants to cast off.

Maaan for some reason this topic keeps bringing me to tears, i cried when i got to the shaman village for the first time, and then multiple times after hearing people talk about it, and this just keeps happening im tireeed

It also shows why Oman are so hated. It stems from Marika and her hatred of the Hornsent. Also I considering the Shaman village is hidden behind a wall in the Shadow Keep and guarded by 2 Erdtree Sentinels makes me wonder why would Marika go to those legnths to hide where she was from. It's like the Shadow Keep itself is to cover up and hide the village. I also believe Marika didn't attack the Land of Shadow until she was well and truly ensconced as queen and that her legacy was secure. She married Radagon to make sure her children were Empryren. She more then likely sent away Godfrey once Mohg and Morgott turned out to be Omen, due to her hatred from the Hornsent, she probably saw it as a gross insult. Marika marrying Radagon was maybe a way to ensure her line would always be in power. I also believe that Messmer was born alongside Miquella and Malenia. Messmer has the red hair of Radagon and is afflicted with a curse like Miquella and Malenia. But Marika gave a blessing of Grace to Messmer to seal the base serpent. What was it about the Base Serpent that would cause Marika to abandon her son in the Shadow lands? Or maybe Marika saw Messmer as an embressment or a useful pawn. I think we should look more at Marikas motives and her willingness to abandon her own son. Not sure if Melina is Marikas daughter because who could her Father be?

This gets deeper with the fingermother quest....

I FUCKIN LOVE YOU GUYS. Watched literally every episode on this channel as they've dropped since 2022 and I'm so happy theres so much more content for yall to cover. Congrats on comming up on 65k subs, that number should be decimals higher but I have no doubt it'll get there

Shaman village kind of reminds me of windmill village - a creepy peace

So i have a bit of a twist on the whole jar thing. I haven't heard nor found anything stating that the hornsent jar practice with shamans started *before* marika became a god. The hornsent mention a betrayal, and the divine gate is majority corpses of hornsent. What if the hornsent only began jarring folks using shamans as the glue *after* marika ascended to godhood with those several thousand petrified bodies. Then Marika sent messmer in retaliation for their retaliation? I'm not sure but i think its worth pondering

That said Marika did the same when she purged the Scadu realm and started the Golden Order, so will the lands between become some little pocket dimension like the Scadu realm did?

There is a chance that Marika herself is a Saint as hornsent defined it and she retained memories of her and others maybe even radagon being out in the jar

“If she believed hard enough in the heart of the jars” ☠️ please tell me this was a yugioh joke

Queen Marika is the only royalty I would ever bow to.

Of all things to expect from the DLC, the jars being related to Marika's origin was something I definitely didn't expect. Finding the Shaman Village was also one of the saddest moments of the game.

I know they call it a divine gate…but were they trying to build a Two Fingers big enough to draw the attention of the Greater Will?

i really enjoyed this video! just a heads up around 5:36 that the greatjar helm makes reference to a different kind of "shaman", not the ones from marika's village. in japanese, the words used are different, and the shaman from marika's village are called 巫女 (miko) or shrine maides/priestesses, but the word used for shamans in the greatjar description is 祈祷師 (kitōshi). i wonder if this was an oversight in the translation. this is also important because it implies that marika came from a primarily female or matriarchal society!

Elden ring lore is good about giving us the who, the what, the where, but the when and why always remain obscured.

Ascension always begins with a descent into the abyss. Every single time. Also, Miquella was born an Empyrean and his Mother was not. That's the fundamental difference. He never had to experience what she did in the way she did and it shaped his thinking like it did.

I don't think Melina was born burned and bodiless, I believed she was born with the gloam eye/black flame curse that made her rebel against her mother.

9:56 I think children born of Marika+Radagon are exceptionally vulnerable to curses and influences of other outer gods, Melina might have been the healthiest child of their union. That said, nothing really suggests that she was actually born burned and bodyless, it's only her current state of being by the time we meet her and as she travels with the tarnished.

Awesome video! Thank you for uploading and keep it up!!

been looking forward to thiss, thanks n have a good day

I wish they would have given an ending to side with Miquella. Competing the Land of Shadow, then bringing him to either the erdtree or even the haligtree.

Anyone else watch Elden ring lore while working out?

Found this video and i loved every minute of it, I always loved queen Marika. she’s so badass and cool

15:50 Godefroy too

Every character beside Radahn is beyond redemption. Utter criminality.

Funny how the lore was made with the help of G.R.R Martin and Marika is literally Daenerys. A liberator at first that turns into a genocidal maniac.

Loving this channel with the dlc content, I had an idea not sure if it's properly backed up. But the only characters that have an "alternate persona" or have an affliction from an outer god are empyrians right? We now know that marikas people were know for having flesh that was easy to "mix" with, what if their souls are the same? So marika was able to "mix" her soul with radagon, then her empyrian children's souls got mixed with the outer gods that wanted to spite her. Probably missing something but it's an idea

Shaman = Shadow Men / Numen = New men It might be a stretch on the shaman part but I think the Numen case being New Men is debatable

This in the background while I get bent my twin moon

miyazaki literally took the eclipse from berserk but he did it during the day time.

Wow that was a REALLY good video. Nice work man, these theories are really good.

I need to know what's up with the snake skin at the village, also I can't help but think we should be able to find more about radagon but we're missing something.

Marika's body, perfect for grafting successfully merged with radagon in the land of shadows to becomea God..... Makes you think maybe she really just used Godfrey to unite the lands between than yeet him out so Radagon could come out of her and rule the lands between himself/herself/themself Good lord

Whenever I think about the relationship between Marika and Radagon, I always come back to the idea of the Ribus. I studied a little bit about alchemy, so I'll try to explain. A ribus, or divine hermaphrodite, was essentially the end goal of alchemy. To create a man made god composed of both man and woman. How this ties into Marika is easy. Perhaps the hornsent, with there slaughtering and dismemberment of the Shaman, were attempting to create a Ribus by stuffing the multitude of shamans into the jars. Over and over, the attempts failed, leading to the amalgamated creatures that wander the dungeons and the black keep, until at last, perhaps even by the intervention of the greater will, one attempt finally yielded fruit. The merger of Radagon and Marika to form the Ribus, the divine hermaphrodite and the hornsent saint, only she would not be controlled. Thus the betrayal. That's all I got right now.

also seems strange to me that messmer exists yet marika left a fire giant alive just to watch the flame. i feel like messmer would have been better suited for this and it would have let her kill the last giant

Amazing content again!

Empyrean hornsent grandam seems like a leader type of the hornsent. An interesting that grandam is an archaic word for grandmother. Perhaps they were allied with Marika and Marika was okay with sacrificing her village for the ultimate goal of Godhood. And the later on she came back to kill the hornsent and ultimately the "betrayal". Also keeping her divinity origin secret.

Regarding to the theory of Rykard sharing the ability to melt (TOOOGHETHER) flesh like the shamen due to his lineage - The blasphemous blade looks very similar to the divine gate from the trailer... Its description says: "Remains of the countless heroes he has devoured writhe upon the surface of this blade." When you look up the item description on the INNARD MEAT (from the shamen jars) it also states: "Rancorous spirits cling to the pinkish-red meat." And then I remembered that Rykard uses the RYKARDS RANCOR spell in his second face, and it´s description tells us: "These spirits manifest from the rancor of heroes who met a violent end." Wich I think could be another ingame connection that could support that theory why his flesh is able conjoin to the flesh of others, like the shamens.

“They were never saints, only on the losing side of a war.”

Awesome video man

Please make one about the dragon Priestess and the forager build

Her children were cursed by the hornsent im pretty sure. At least the omen twins for sure

'Followed Marika out of the Lands of Shadow and became known as the Numen'. I'm so sorry but this is just a assumption that doesn't make any sense. Nothing in the game directly indicates that Numens were Shamans. The only indirect reference to the Numen come from Count Yimir who sais ''Long ago we began as STARDUST... We too are, are Childrens of the Greater Will". Again, this makes sense in the context in which Numens are understood as Marebito, which in Japanese means something like the visit of a spiritual divinity that comes from another world. Understanding this is key to figure out that at the end of the day that being a shaman was very similar to a astrologer meaning they can act as a small gap to other planes, in the case of the astrologer is the study of the procesion of the starts while for the Shamans is spiritism... even Roderika very early on elaborates a lot on this.