I never really watched Enterprise, but as a former army guy, a private would never go up to a colonel (an O-6, which the equivalent of a navy captain) and talk to him that way. Not only would the private get in trouble for doing that, but his sergeant in charge of him would get chewed out for letting it happen. Looks like that tradition is alive and well in Starfleet.

The Original Series was created by a WW II and post-WW II generation of writers, directors and producers many of whom were actual veterans themselves. They had a knowledge for how a proper military operation and command pyramid worked. They were able to bring that sense of military authenticity to the Original Series that we really have not seen since. (That said I have no idea where Roddenberry was coming from with that idea about there being no enlisted personnel on the Enterprise. That's just nuts!) I think in the post-TNG era, we've mostly have writers whose knowledge of the military comes from watching Star Trek. I'd wager that the bulk of Star Trek's current audience believes that the lowest rank in Starfleet is "Ensign!" Unfortunately, The Original Series did not have what Voyage To The Bottom of the Sea had which was regular enlisted characters. The Enterprise needed a "Kowalski" and a "Sharkey" and maybe its audience... and subsequent writers and producers... would be more aware of the role of the enlisted grades.

0:33 I'm so glad you offered that stipulation, I was totally going to vote Jellico the nicest captain!

Comparisons of ST to real world military are always fascinating, thanks for the info!

Red Dwarf showed the real lower decks.

So, in a sense we STILL haven't actually seen the lower decks of a starfleet ship. For that we'd need a show that focused on the enlisted crewmen and we wouldn't see any interaction with the officers.

I love how Archers attitude changed when he realized that Daniels knew a whole lot more than Archer did

definitely Anson Mount and taking him out of the equation I would have said Kirk. Great video!

Love this topic. It's one I've often wondered about, as any Navy vet will tell you that NCOs are the heart of any vessel.

In the end, you touched upon what I feel is the biggest flaw of “Lower Decks,” despite being an otherwise decent series. Lower Decks completely ignores the existence of enlisted crewmen. I pointed this out on my own channel, before Lower Decks even aired. All we had was a trailer, but it was already clear that they were ensigns and not enlisted. I said at the time, these characters should not be officers; they should be enlisted. As good of a job that Mike McMahan and company are doing, I have a sneaking suspicion that they don’t know the difference.

I have noticed that in most Star Trek shows that there are no NCOs above Chief Petty Officer aboard a starship. Although, Senior Chief Petty Officer Miles O'Brien served aboard the USS Defiant but that ship was basically an extension of Deep Space Nine, a Starbase. Notice, that upon promotion to Senior Chief Petty Officer Miles O'Brien had to leave the Enterprise-D and transfer to DS9. It seems that NCOs above Chief Petty Officer are treated like Starfleet admirals and confined to Starbases or Headquarters. In fact, Janice Rand is confined that Headquarters after her promotion past Chief Petty Officer and only returns to starship duty once she becomes a Commissioned Officer. Warrant Officers like Kosinski in the TNG episode "Where No One has Gone Before" and possibly Tam Elbrun from the TNG episode "Tin Man" are only sent out to assist Starships on special missions and are not really part of the crew.

Wagner, the "Enterprise" series was the one that felt most like a submarine imho 🙂 the uniforms even look like poopy suits 🙂 But, what is with star trek and covers? I don't expect them to wear a cover on the ship, as we don't don't do that in the real Navy, but when ashore in uniform they should have a cover! And salute! 🙂 (story about that though....one time I was doing training on how to handle mooring lines, it was conducted by a surface Chief. When it was over, I realized my cover had disappeared, and I asked the chief if he had seen it or if he had one I could wear. He said he hadn't seen what happened to my cover, however, since it was a submarine base and I had dolphins, he figured I could probably make it all the way back to the barracks without one and no one would say anything. In fact, he was right! I passed several officers and saluted and said "good afternoon, sir", etc., and none said anything. Passed a few Master Chiefs (not my COB, Master Chiefs from other boats), and they approached, looked at my chest, saw dolphins, and kept walking. lol. Needless to say I had a few spare covers in my baracks room and therefore had one to wear the next day. I sort of expected to hear from my sonar senior chief, or perhaps the COB, about it, but never did. lol)

Starfleet seems more like the Air Force rather than Navy. The separation between enlisted and officer ranks is not as stark in the Air Force due to it being a smaller, and more technical service. I knew 1st and 2nd LT's when I was active duty that would get their asses handed to them by their superiors for questioning SMsgt's and Chiefs in the same unit. A lot of enlisted guys in the Air Force have advanced degrees, they just don't ever bother getting a commission, so their jobs/duties remain more specialized. Starfleet seems the same way.

Martok went from being s civilian-commision on a Klingon ship, to General of the (9th?) Fleet, all the way to Chancellor Martok, Leader of Destiny!! '2309, there is no finer vintage!'

Great video Darrin. When I thought about it I gave Star Trek a pass regarding mostly officers because the officers have more responsibility.

In the TOS era I remember thinking it's ridiculous that every single person on a ship is an ensign or above. It does make sense that any enlisted assigned to a ship would be at least a petty officer, which is a non-commissioned officer. Highly trained in one or two specific areas: med tech, transporter tech, sensor tech, antimatter storage and transport tech. Any time there is an actual 'crewman', which would be a seaman or private, it would likely be a temporary training position.

I always assumed that Rand was the equivalent of an Ensign with a field not unlike an AG officer in the US Army and a role not unlike an Aide or an Assistant Secretary of the General Staff.

Picard. Only a really nice guy would react so calmly to being splashed with hot chocolate in engineering, and he was really nice to those kids in the turbo lift, even though he doesn’t like being around children.

You do realize that Lower Decks is a comedy? And a darn good one.

In the National Guard fraternizing between enlisted and commission happens more often.

I probably would have chosen Picard as the "nicest" captain.

The Alfa-class Soviet submarines had crews of all officers, due to the complexity of the vessel's systems, from what I've read. I can see some Starfleet bases or vessels having the same requirements.

As a former Signal guy and the TMDE coordinator in my unit while in the Army. I gained an even bigger respect for Enterprise after seeing their version on the NSN plates on everything in the background Also most officers in the branches got their commissions doing Rotc in college or OCS/OTS after college. And plenty such as myself enlist with a degree.

It's easy to fall into making 1:1 comparisons between Starfleet and an earthbound naval military service, but it's important to remember that Starfleet has been established in large part as a non-military organization. I tend to think of Starfleet as more akin to a non-military uniformed service like to the United States NOAA, which commissions officers, but has no enlisted ranks and is not otherwise part of the Department of Defense. NASA itself establishes a precedent of space travel being the purview of individuals with an extensive pre-existing degree of post-graduate scientific and technical training, including (but not limited to) a military background. With these comparisons in mind, it makes sense to see so few enlisted personnel within Starfleet (or at least not assigned to starships), even factoring in the standards of 22nd-24th century technological advancements by which qualifications for working in space would be assessed.

Enlisted personnel can become warrant officers, and there are such things as enlisted who do become regular officers as well. The slang term for the latter is mustang.

One aspect show in the Role Playing Game was that enlisted went with one year of teaining as opposed to 4. They focused on 1 aspect or job. Such as transporter systems or entemology. Often the officers would have 3 to 4 times versitility but these specialists could hold their own "stat" wise as any generic officer. It also allowed people to serve in Starfleet without dedicating a lot of time to Starfleet. I do think there are many 1 off characters that would have served better as enlisted than Ensign so 'n so. That whole episode of Voyager where Janeway drags Lower Deckers on an away mission comes to mind.

My dad and uncle were both warrent officers in the United States army so they both got to break the barrier a little bit. But there is a separation of enlisted and commissioned officers. My father said it is not always a bad thing but you should be familiar with some of the people that you are in charge of but he said you have to be careful about being buddy buddy with people

There have been a lot of High Ideas, one might even say "Progressive" ideas, in the various Star Trek shows such as 1) There is no money, 2) Humans do not consume animals for food, 3) Star Fleet is not a military organization, 4) One must actually have the rank of Captain to command any vessel, even a small one, and 5) There are no enlisted ranks. And then it's possible to find in-episode exceptions to every one of these ideas. The reality is the writers and producers aren't consistent with whatever (if any) guidelines they are given on such things probably for a variety of reasons: The Progressive idea isn't consistent with the story they want to tell, they don't understand military structure, they simply aren't aware of "the rules," the continuity person is doing a lousy job, and et cetera, et cetera. One of the pleasures committed Star Trek fans have when it comes to Star Trek is the continuity, trying to find breaks in it, and then trying to explain those breaks away. But sometimes one just has to shrug their shoulders, especially lately.

As a huge fan of lower decks this is the first criticism of the show I have taken seriously.

On a submarine or a frigate, only the captain has the luxury of his or her own private room. Everyone else has to sleep in bunks, obviously the females and males separately as well the officers and enlisted. The enlisted officer is the commissioned officer's eyes and ears,the trainer, the doer. The fact that over 85% of the armed forces are enlisted tells of their importance. An officer's brain is wired differently (presuming they can use it). Indeed it's the senior non-commissioned officers who train the officer cadets in places like RMA Sandhurst or RAF Cranwell;these are training academies where potential officers are sent to be trained as officers. The Sandhurst course is 44 weeks and the Cranwell course is 24 weeks. Getting a place on either course is less than easy, the candidate needs to pass an intense medical examination, fitness tests, classroom aptitude tests, initiative exercises, a panel interviews regarding themselves and their political awareness as well psychological evaluation. The cadets are expected to keep a diary during their training where they need write honestly how they are feeling and coping. Unfortunately these diaries are collected and examined by course staff for signs of a cadet not coping or having suicidal thoughts etc. At the end of training, the few that graduate attend Sovereign's Parade where they will officially their commission from the King or one of his representatives and enter the forces as either a 2nd lieutenant for the army or pilot officer for RAF. After a few days leave, they will attend their specialist training, now taught by a mix of commissioned and senior non-commissioned officers.

I love that you did not include any Discovery Captains, Bravo lol

The reason for wanting to have continued discussions with you is the challenge your bring to my view point and opinions. They are quite enjoyable for me at least. If not for you, please let me know.

Starfleet looks a lot like National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Officer Corps (NOAA Corps).

In addition to my previous comment, I have thoughts regarding some of the discrepancies seen with characters like Rand and O’Brien. In both cases, we’ve seen them wearing uniform pips which seem to contradict their enlisted status. With Grace Lee Whitney, we have the question of whether or not the “Woman in Cafeteria” is indeed Rand or some unknown character having a rather familiar, emotional reaction to seeing the damage to Enterprise-as if these are people she personally knows and feels the need to see them safety dock. If she’s not Rand, she’s sure playing her like Rand. Then in the very next movie, she’s credited as “Commander Rand,” despite her uniform suggesting otherwise. Her hair color is immaterial. Women change their hair color all the time. Likewise, throughout TNG, we see O’Brien wearing officers’ pips, only for it to later be established on DS9 that he “works for a living.” Just the fact that Picard has the power to make Wesley an “acting ensign,” and there’s some other examples, I think there’s sufficient evidence that Starfleet (which has its own rules apart from modern militaries) allows a commanding officer, in certain circumstances, to appoint an enlisted crewman under his specific command (and in some cases, someone not even in Starfleet, i.e. Wesley, i.e. T’Pol) to a temporary field promotion, with all the privileges and responsibilities thereof, which then ends once that person leaves that position or is no longer under that particular commander. Picard is impressed by O’Brien’s value, so while on the Enterprise, he is an acting officer-which ends the day he leaves that post and joins the crew of DS9. Same thing for Rand while serving at Starfleet Headquarters. Same thing for Wesley while on the Enterprise-D. Same thing for T’Pol while serving as an acting Commander on the NX-01. And similar situation for when both Riker and Data received temporary field promotions, which reverted back after the task was completed. They weren’t actually demoted. It always a temporary assignment, until formalized otherwise.

This was an excellent video. I would add in general that Star Trek writers have done little work to understand the military rank system at all. For instance, security guards are often Ensigns, transporter operators, etc. Since TNG, officers nearly exclusively went on away missions to engage in combat type activities. Chief O'Brien crawling through spaces with tools fixing things (I was Army, but even I know a chief is a god on a boat), officers "flying the ship" and nearly 100% occupy the bridge. Ensigns being called "senior staff". Harry Kim commanding the ship on "night duty". There is no night in space, so any issues/threat at 2pm earth time should be no different at 3am earth time. The Enterprise being called the "flagship", based on THEIR usage of the term (which they violate) this presumably means the best/most capable ship in the fleet, but there were many Galaxy class starships. A Flagship, as far as I know, is the one the admiral is on. Beverly Crusher and Deanna Troi (once she became a full commander) as doctors get to command the ship JUST based on their rank? And don't get me started on a Maquis terrorist being made first officer on Voyager and forcing SF personnel to report to him, B'Elana and others (remember how Eddington was treated). I get we can't hold folks in the brig for 70 years and we lost personnel in the Caretaker, but that does NOT mean, you get to "command"

What was O'Brians rank in 'Encounter at Farpoint'?

I always assumed Rand was an ensign in TOS, like Chekov.

Cleaning the holodeck. LoL

Interesting video as I see this topic pop up on other videos. The main thing with Janice Rand seems to be they wanted to keep using GLW but had to wave a magic wand to make it make sense. There are also some oddities with Enterprise D having a large civilian population which included barbers who cut the Captain's hair. SNW has civilians on board for the Port Galley. It seems Titan-A had no civilians as the cook wore a Starfleet uniform, but it looked like he had a single darkened pip which according to some sources is Warrant Officer. Maybe someone in charge of managing their kitchen is worthy of Warrant Officer status?

Even The Lower Deck omit Enlisted personal. And the whole show about how shitty it is to junior in Star Fleet.

I would have thought that on a ship as large as the Enterprise D, there would have been a Warrant Officer as Senior most Enlisted Rank responsible for all other Enlisted Ranks on the Ship, in matters of general discipline (department matters aside) and welfare.

Roddenberry was correct... enlisted ranks make sense in a military like ours. The officers have advanced degrees and training, so they get paid more etc. but in a post-scarcity society where money mostly does not exist or at least isn't important... why the hell would anyone enlist in Star Fleet to be a janitor or do mind-numbing low skill maintenance ? Nobody is getting paid. Yeah OK maybe some people just want the excitement of being on a flagship. But most ships aren't that. So who is enlisting to be the deck hand or low level functionary on a crappy transport ship or medical ship or science ship? Nobody would do this.

Enjoyed this vid, got a subscriber out of me.

So.......1 year in prison or join Starfleet, learn a trade.

As a former private i always roled my eyes on Star Treks focus on officers. At least show a little bit more of the real backbone of any military, which are the seargents! Otherwise you get a very annoying posh vibe of Starfleet. To quote seargent Steiner from my favourite Sam Pekinpah movie Cross of Iron: I hate all officers. The focus on Star Treks officers would have been ok if you get more of a NASA Feeling from Star Trek with the characters resemling more real astronauts like in Apollo 13. Butyou never get that vibe from Trek, Starfleet is more like the Navy in space and not the NASA from the future. So if Starfleet is more navy than NASA they should have focused more on the privates and seargents. And btw , i dont consider Lower Decks to show the real lower decks because they are all low ranking officers already.

Weren't MACOs based on the Marines?

Gene Rodenbury was apparently an ex US Air Force Officer. Its a typical attitude of some officers in some Services that Enlisted Personnel are not needed - thats a short sighted view by them.

Benjamin Sisko. I will admit my bias, but I stand by my choice.

My god man Stop doing St stuff. You get major things wrong. Rand was a commander on the Excel. Even in VOY the flash back with tuvok. She was second in command. Then in the movie as noted that was her and was a commander at that point too. Again this is basic Alpha Canon stuff, that would take less then 2 min to look up. What worst rand was not the only NCO shown when Gene was the showrunner. And in even show/movie since there have been NCOs on screen.

yeah star trek is inconsistent with enlisted personnel. Like that enlisted man in "Dumbhead", how are we supposed to know his rank by looking at his uniform btw? It looks like an officer's uniform just no pips. I guess he's an E-1 seaman? But he has a rating, so he shouldn't be an E-1 anymore. Weird. I think Roddenberry had a point....if you're as wealthy of a society as the Federation apparently is, probably most people can go to college for free, so you probably wouldn't have enlisted people. Also, while it's never shown on screen, I remember Riker saying the ship cleans herself. Since they never show cleaning robots I guess everything is cleaned by energy fields? I dunno. But that would seem to be contradicted by the screenshots you showed from Lower Decks (which I have never watched). hmm.

Nice guy not a good or responsible captain on the other hand.

wow. 'lower decks' is dumb af? shocking.

This also reminds me of how the officers and enlisted interact in David Weber's Honorverse. A Captain or higher officer pretty much hss only regular interaction with thrir Steward, who is usually a senior enlisted personel. The only other regular interaction would be for disciplinary purposes at the Captain's Mast. All other interactions follow the chain of command. I think the only exception are the various Chief Petty Officers in various departments, but they usually have at least 25+ years experience doing their jobs and are considered experts. If they aporoach the Commsnding Officer, its usually for a damned good reason.