before you leave that mean comment remember i am attacking YOU PERSONALLY if you enjoy PVP.

8:01 "I did like the video, because I do hate school" That's a bold thing to admit when you are being sponsored by a school.

In my opinion its an unsolvable problem because the people that want mmo pvp don't want skill based combat, they want their infinite hours to give them free wins against others. Its the same logic that basically all open world pvp is just griefing instead of fair fights. PvP and MMORPGs are just wholly incompatible; PvP says "lets find out whos best on a level playing field" and MMORPGs say "lets reward players with power for their time". Like CoD and Fortnite would be unplayable if you got more hp and damage for each match you played, it would be a game only for those with no lives.

The nostalgia flashbang of using that old free license song that was insanely common in like 2010 era youtube tutorials

When the 3 "R"s came up i was definitely expecting racism as one of them.

As an OSRS player with a single character, knowing there’s people who have PvP specific alts whose skills are specifically built to pk for lower level areas is enough for me

As someone who was ganked for 6hrs on his first visit in STV on some private server I hate non-consensual PvP in MMO. I like to play shooters where it's main focus, but if I want to hit my "do this world quest 20 times" in WoW achievement I just do it in the dry seasons.

I can't believe you only have ~45k subs. You've been coming out with some absolute bangers! Keep up the great work

I think that the main issue with pvp in a MMORPG also fails whenver devs try and make it because the pvp player in general does not want a fair fight, they want a fight that they have a massive advantage on so whenever a pvp mode comes out that that is fair it becomes dead content to any pvp player.

Im supprised you didnt mention EVE Online. since they have a neat balance of PvP.

I've played MMOs since 2006 and I'm not an MMO PvP enjoyer. The appeal of MMOs to me always lay in the social aspects of the genre. Meeting new people, building social groups and doing fun activities together. To me PvP runs counter to that side of the game. The fact that PvP rewards are unlocked by reaching predefined milestones set by the developers tends to put players at odds with one another, and leads to players having to perpetually work at improving their skills. If a member of the group isn't as invested as the rest of the group they're likely to be ejected from the group because they're not good enough. That social dynamic is not very healthy, and I wish that more MMO players would take a step back and examine how they allow the game to shape their attitudes towards other people and the game. I've played thousands of hours in other PvP games like Dota, CoD and CS because those games facilitate PvP extremely well. It's a core element of those games. But MMO PvP could never hold my interest. It's just not the strength of the genre.

21:43 Yes. That's why a majority of them will seal club the second they get the opportunity. Seal clubbers are the target audience of MMORPG PVP or really any other high-risk PVP game with no matchmaking. They don't care about getting an engaging fair fight, they just want to annihilate someone who has no idea what's happening so they can feel like their hours were worth it. That's why Git Gud is their go-to response.

Something similar happened with destiny 2, there was 2 weapons that were exclusive rewards from hours of pvp, that were the best weapons in pvming, and so it resulted in a lot of pvmers just being angry and frustrated that they were forced to interact with the pvp. I believe the dev response was to just make the pvp weapons shit from then on.

"The fun was optimized out of the game" Yeah, that's what MMO's feel like a lot of the time nowdays, especially older ones like WoW.

Tbh this is why I loved PvP private servers in WoW, such as arena tournament, or battleground focused servers. Everyone started at max level and okay starting gear. You had progression, but a very skilled player in starting gear could still beat a bad player in maxed out gear. Had just the right balance of skill vs progression. If you lost a BG it was not the end of the world and you could still have fun. Nowadays everything has to be sweaty and ranked, which is such a turnoff when you just want to enjoy the game.

Something to remember about Ultima Online the entire economy was based around open world pvp, so losing your gear meant the players who only played as a blacksmith would have income. Crafting was an entire template so they could really only make money off if other players purchasing gear multiple times. Also reaching "max level" was mostly trivial in the beginning because it was skill point based not actually levels. The best gear was also easily obtained so the accessibility was nearly instant even for high skill play. Power creep has set in fully with the retail release and pvp could take years before a player has enough gold to even attempt it now. A free version of Ultima Online called Outlands has done some pretty great things to return the game to a state where the original pattern is still recognizable as far as open world pvp is concerned. You are absolutely right that accessibility is the main key for pvp to be accepted by the player base. Reaching comparable level, getting multiple load outs of gear, and allowing players to keep jumping back in are things that can be achieved but the focus on pvp has to be there from the beginning. Mixing high end pve such as ,mega bosses, and increasingly powered gear with brutal pvp only works for a little while as players are learning the game and still trying to level up.

Turns out, games that have you stand still to use half of your abilities that are just canned animations with damage properties and minute-long crowd control meant to fight bosses that take 50 people to defeat, and where your power level is based on how long you've spent grinding for gear with bigger numbers aren't that fun to fight other players in. Who would have thought?

I just miss spamming random battlegrounds in WoW sooo much bro. 😭

Dogs go "bark" cows go "moo" MMORPG players go "the pvp is unbalanced!"

"I think most pvpers would like to be challenged more" osrs wildy pk teams will disagree. They only thing they want is powertripping, because there isnt even alot of money to be made pking compared to pvm

>Blizzard's Plunderstorm BR >high skill combat Best joke of the week.

Been gaming for 35+ years, been online gaming at least half time spent since rainbow six and ultima online... Used to be a figurehead of a 200+ player guilds and ran communities etc... Now its just me and about 12 others who casual game and kick it.. none of us play any competitive games anymore.. we gave up on them completely for nearly 2 years now, we spent about 2 years prior hunting for our next forever game. Answer why? Cheats, toxicity, and pay2win. Anything competitive brings out those 3 types of people.. cheating in competitive games feel like you just cant know what was legit anymore... Life is so much better getting off the mmo and competitive games, kicking it with dark tide or anything else on gamepass, and living our lives without digital drama and toxic behaviors forced around you

i see idyl video, i click like button

I think your final message sums it all up really well, and does a good job representing my experience. When I was playing ffxiv, I enjoyed the pvp because it was a casual style of pvp in a casual kind of game, I was able to get decent and hold my own because the skill ceiling was an appropriate height to where the best players still had advantages, but every now and then I could get a run going. I also play osrs and the pve is open and lets me be a casual, but I won’t even go near pvp in that. I appreciate the skill set it takes to be good, but I want nothing to do with it

A true fan falls asleep to Idyl's silky smooth voice, providing one entire uninterrupted view. And THEN rewatches later to actually absorb the information. And then comments for engagement.

All could be fixed with more rewarding pvp. You can’t tell me that if bdo on console came out with a new 5v5 tournament style mode with pearl rewards, leaderboards, and gear payouts the environment wouldn’t change fore the better. Reward players for pvp. Open world. Node wars. Siege. Rbf. All of it. Not just some minor silver that will get thrown down the drain trying to enhance gear. Albion Online is pretty good for pvp but it lacks in character design and mechanics compared to most other games. If bdo and Albion Online had a baby, that would be a great game.

The most recent time I got pked in osrs was when I was 4-iteming a clue step and some sweat started freezing, vengancing, and like swapping overheads like a madman. I didn't even lose anything, but that experience just completely turned me off the the idea of pking in osrs. Ceiling is too high and I don't have time to learn all the tick perfect clicking required to get a good pk

Something that resonated with me from the video was the mention of how battlegrounds have been optimized into being stomped by groups of coordinated players. I was wondering what made this new battleground mode in an MMO I like start to sour with time, and I see that the thing that has changed with time is that, as a solo queuer, I am increasingly faced with teams of 5 who use coordinated meta tactics that cannot be combatted with random teammates. It's taken a lot of the fun out of it, since a team of 5 is inaccessible to me, and the issue is compounded by the fact that all of the progression in the current seasonal event is tied to this battleground mode, forcing me into this pretty disheartening cycle.

Hey mr. president. There was one game with a great PvP system - Lineage 2 (C6). Reason why you might not have known about it, cause it was more popular in Eastern Europe. Idea behind is simple, you can attack anyone, no factions, just free for all basically. You wouldn't lose any items, UNLESS you would kill someone without them hitting you back, in that case you'll end up getting "Karma" and would have a chance to drop random items from your inventory, but if he hits you back, no matter who wins, there were no penalty, well apart of losing a bit of exp. We would fight for farming spots constantly, sometimes there would be more PvP than mob killing, purely cause there were so many people there. You can look this system up, best PvP MMo/Rpg system I've ever experienced to this day.. and yes, this game is nearly 20 years old

Great video Idyl! I think that pvp with default gear sets or loadouts often results in a complete detachment to your character- I agree. At the same time, pvp systems without this "equalize the playing field" results in unfair situations where now, to even engage in PvP, you have to grind for the optimal gearing to even attempt to learn PvP. A compromise has to be in order and I haven't seen many games try to implement something like removing enchantments, consumables, and other "extra" factors in order to make gearing necessary but not overly tedious. Elder Scrolls Online, for example, runs into the issue that you really need to grind quite a bit to get pvp gear sets with the optimal traits (that require time to research), and enchants. In this case, a good idea would be to disable enchants and traits and make gearing necessary, but not extremely tedious. I also do think that, this combined with a PvP arena (like 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, etc) would be a good way for players to learn to play PvP without the barrier of entry being too large and at the same time, still preserve that attachment to one's character. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something. PvP is incredibly hard to incorporate in an MMORPG and I think to do so requires some serious creativity on the developer's part. Ashes of Creation is trying to handle open world PvP with their Karma system but I'm not sure how that can work.... Another issue with open world PvP that you touched on is emergent behavior. Developers cannot predict how players, on mass, will behave over time. This is the issue with emergent gameplay that inherently involves disruptive player to player interaction.

The funniest part to me is that a lot of average PvP'ers will hyper fixate on those extremely rare moments where they overcame a single huge disadvantage, but then completely forget the 100 other situations where they brutally lost in the exact same, or worse, scenario.

hey idyl, just wanted to ask if you can make a plugin for RL of an idea i had, basically the plugin allows you to play osrs like a 3RD PERSON SHOOTER, the camera is always facing your character's back side ,and when ever the character change directions the cam moves with it, and its always on the lowest height setting possible, and i think the character should be a little transparent so you can see what is Infront of it. please like if you think this is a cool idea, so boldy can see it. love you btw

Wow classic pvp was so good and its never been the same ever since. No other mmo could match it. It had a perfect combo of open world, battle grounds, a grindy ranking system, and most importantly ZERO SWEATY HYPER META ARENAS WITH HUGE BARRIER TO ENTRY.

Using this audio in the beginning of the video while already reminiscing on early gaming memories is setting my nostalgia meter to levels I hadn't experienced since the re-release of OSRS lmao

There is a really cool niche open-world faction PvP MMO that I've enjoyed playing called StalCraft. It's an MMO set in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R universe with a "half-loot" PvP system, that I think solves some of the issues you mentioned. You go on expeditions out of your safe zone to gather materials that can be sold, equipped, or used to upgrade your gear, but if you are killed by a member of another faction, they can take your loot. However you will never lose your gear that you have spent hours grinding for. You lose your ammo, consumables, and the items you gathered on your expedition. So at most, you're risking some money you spent on supplies, and on the spoils of your expedition. It makes the entire gameplay experience more tense and exciting due to the looming risk of PvP, but you don't get too disheartened by dying, because you're only losing the progress you made since leaving the safe zone. And you also feel motivated to kill enemies because you can get their spoils and make your trip more profitable. As an FPS, it's also easy to understand and get into PvP. You never have to feel bad equipping your best gear because you know it's safe, which makes progression more satisfying.

bro the music right at the start really set the vibe

More like death of PVP in established publishers, when there's surging emotions(like looking for something) + a gap in the market = someone would eventually makes them.

Not really a PvPer but was wondering when you'd talk about Arena mode in WoW at least as it's the main PvP scene and has a good amount of players, felt like it covers objections like build and being full pvp and wished you covered what else you think about it on the video, so at the end just felt like an oversight.

I remember back in 2006 or '07, my friends would get me supplies to level up my smithing to the point where I could smith full steel, equip that with our rune scimmies and just go to town in f2p lol

Really enjoyed this video. Lots of agreements on my end. Also remember being on 1Mbps cable internet while 80% of others on dial-up doing open world full loot pvp in UO. Always hidden advantages to be had lol

I think the only time I really had fun with PVP in an MMO was hunting cursed energy bots in RS3. Killing them, getting 200k worth of cursed energy, then trying to escape back to Edgeville without getting killed by someone else doing the same thing was a lot of fun - though it was more "very risky PvE" than true PVP.

I think the only reason I've always gravitated towards MMO's that have open world PVP, is because the extra added element of danger and the "social" aspect of making enemies/friends. That being said, my favorite MMO of all time FFXI basically had no PVP, and I didn't actually know that was a thing that people did until WoW came along. I hate first person shooters, but I love games like Chiv 2 and Mordhau which is where I believe "MMO type PVP" thrives.

I think pvp has a place in battlegrounds and arenas in World of Warcraft. Depending on the pop and the community of certain realms wpvp can be more acceptable than what was described here about many other games.

Albion? They are reaching new player records and the entire MMO is based on open world and instanced full loot PvP. Somehow it's the exception in the fully player driven full loot genre, the game is massive. EVE is another(although more niche) successful example.

I'm a very casual OSRunescape player who only uses the wildy when I really need it. I appreciate that the wildy has some nice rewards at the risk of being PK'd.

Open world PVP is mostly fixed by Private servers(with high rates) being able to max out quicker than your average game. If one of the gatekeepers was being high level and gear, your average private servers resolves that

They changed DMM, you don't lose XP anymore It's actually a pretty good version of pvp, theyre going to be doing another one soon.

Osrs PvP accessibility; start a decade and a half ago. 😂 “It’s so ugly! Why did you do this Jagex?!”. The desperation and sincerity in that hit me deep in my soul. I agree. As much as you can possibly agree. 😂

As far as osrs goes, I wish they'd give us a coffer we could stock with gp so that pvpers would get our gp instead of our items. I play an Ironman, I absolutely do not enjoy PvP of any kind in any game. The few times that I've taken bones to the wilderness altar, I did it at 3am and hated it. I got killed once and never went back. The thought of losing bones I spent hours farming pisses me off to an unbelievable degree, but if I just lost the GE equivalent in gold, I wouldn't care nearly as much.

Using the Unpragmatic Covers version of Boulevard of Broken Dreams was a really nice and fitting touch. I find that even though losing my stuff was more consequential and rebuilding took much longer back in the old days of Runescape, I minded less because you didn't have to be full-on with PVP to get lucky sometimes, the systems of it were simpler and you didn't need to put as much time and effort in to have a fighting chance... it was also before maxing out skills was anywhere near the norm lol

Can you do a video on Flyff Universe? I have been enjoying it a lot, and I see it gets a lot of mixed reviews. I never played the original back in the day. So maybe I am just not jaded yet, but I would like to know your opinion on the game. Thanks for another great video!

One thing to remember about pking in 2007 is that things like pathing were really different from modern OSRS. I have a feeling it would take a little adjusting to go back to those servers.

Hey how did you not mention Albion online? That game has the healthiest pvp pve balance and the only mmo I play due to that balance

That was honestly a really good watch, nice work on the video! As for a potential solution, it's complex but something i would probably go with in most mmo's is factions. Not in the huge two sided ways like WoW, but like a proper faction system with multiple choices, and two or more _specific_ factions would be pvp factions, and only towards each other. Consider it a pvp toggle for people that want to be a part of an open world pvp experience but with way more potential depth and without forcing pvp and non-pvp content to be mixed together. But hey, that's just my take, it would take some big suit bois to make allow it for it to actually happen haha...

The MMO with the healthiest relation with PvP is GW2 (I love the game but even if I didn't I would say it). You can get PvE rewards from playing both sPvP and WvW. sPvP gear is also completely equalized and pretty easy to find casual matches. WvW uses your own gear but its not hard to get a good build going..

Early UO Days Full Loot PvP was just the standart. When MMOs changed to themepark ( and used gear as motivation and character progress) the formula didn't work because no one wants to loose weeks of time invested. Nowadays Albion does a nice job. With full loot and non full lot options. Also gear has the same value as Buff food in other games.

I think what made pvp in PlanetSide, Foxhole and Gloria Victis fun and Eve and Albion pvp not fun is how you choose your team. In a fun game, you choose a faction to fight for. In a not fun game, you can become a cog in one of the 3 mega gangs or ware through the politics and policies of about 1,000 smaller games and all you wanted to do was some relaxing pvp.

as a wow player i only really do pvp for the cosmetics and bonus rewards you get from world quests when in war mode, but it's extremely funny as a blood death knight. sorry my health bar is so big and succulent.

I started in tbc, but it wasnt my main game until late 2010, and i have only taken two breaks, the end of cata and the middle of wod i would drop the game if they removed/abandoned pvp. edit: valid af

Guild Wars 2 has really cool PVP. You've got the 5v5 mode that's basically a MOBA. And the Realm v Realm mode that's basically open world siege warfare. Everyone is scaled up to max level so it's automatically more fair, and is easier to get into in some senses (but more complicated to learn in others). It's very rewarding (on par with other end game content), but hasn't had any real dev work put into it in ages. Makes me a lil sad.

I literally just skipped this entire video to the end because I wanted to hear Idyl's patreon song.

WTF HAPPENED TO CLAN WARS (Purple Portal) we used to have so many clans and had wars regularly….

It took 27 minutes, but you did finally make the same argument I always do about osrs pvp. I've played since 2004, and the pking issue has and always will be power creep. People are definitely better at it now, but that would be entirely irrelevant if we were in a 2005 metagame where the only real way to stack somebody out in a single game tick was with a gmaul combo. It's truly in 2006 with 1h crossbows, void, dbow, lunars, and rfd gloves that things began to get out of hand. These things were all massive spikes in player power, and the power creep just kept snowballing from there with gwd(specifically ags) the next year. But hey, I'm just an out of touch runescape boomer. Clearly.

PvP needs to be presented in a specific manor and most just sling it in there all willy nilly :) Also PvP needs to be molded for the actual gameplay loop which no studio till now does. In the lands of PENANCE PvP is presented in a multitude of ways. You will chose your style and level of PvP from the minute to minute interlock systems to out right stabbing someone in the face. Much love from the PENANCE team!

As a PvPer of 20 years you hit the nail on the head wpvp is what is good about mmo PvP I expected to be mad at this video but you nailed it. Most people looking in from the outside fail to get this point

Tried runescape as a teen looking for a break from wow. Spent a month farming a Robin hood set and finally found my first clue. It took me into the wilderness and right as I was about to finish it I got killed. That cause me to quit and never touch a pvp game again lol

"The R is silent, shut up" lmao got me good.

28:03 wait your huge old school RuneScape player??? Not only the president of MMOs but also a huge osrs player. What a legend

Being ganked is not fun .

Diablo 2 pvp in the early 2000's was peak PVP content. There were lvl 18 and evne lvl 30 pvp builds. Truly incredible.

Can you review the game Tibia??

i actually made designs for some good new battleground minigames for osrs and rs3. like for example in rs3, have a lvl system, everyone starts at lvl 1. and you can mine recourse, smith items, make potions, while another team kills ,monsters, takes control of control points (like in dawn of war) and prepares defences. while the other side uses the items to gear up, uses the slain slayer monsters to attack these control points. if you win, you get more points, but you can't hold out for long, you cant restock in the other persons area. the moment a team is "engaged" both teams can't get new items, if the enemy team wins, this system stays, so you need to go back and forth to gather your supplies back. the fun idea I had with this WAS the chaos, you can have everyone gather resources and just a few overpowered guys take control piints and that is fine. you can have the entire team fight with almost no resoucrs, and thats fine, you can steal them from the other team. there is no wrong way to play it, all you do is to play. the reason why everything is lvl 1 at the start is because you do have limited weapons and specials (rs3) you need to find your way, use range to ensare and get them, or magic to be powerfull, but slow. or melee, be tanking, but your damage can only be done one on one. and then I found out, that doing ALL OF THIS, and maintaining ALL OF THIS, is an entire game on itself, which is why for a lot of games, pvp is dying, it is just too much to make, maintain and handle. just look at osrs, they spend YEARS and it just did not work out. the concept of playing it for fun is gone because a couple of perfect players just decimate anyone trying to learn. groups of clans just go and mess your shit up before you could leanr, you need so many plugins that there is no hope for you to even try. it took me MONTHS to learn how to kill bosses in rs3, i am lovin it. but damn, i would hate to learn it, by dying, because I did not have the right plugins, wrong stats (oeps) or a new item that just came out that takes another acount to GET, because buying it will cost you a new morgage. a fix thou, for osrs, might be to focus on how to make it hard, for strong players to be in the field. maybe have them tagged. instead of tagging EVERYONE, as soon as you get a couple hundred kills, you get tagged, people can find you. this is resert every couple of months, call it an (event) or something.

I love game design. I love your videos. I also love permanent deadman mode and played it for over two years and have a max cape there and shared this video with all my DMM friends. You’re absolutely right it’s completely dead, but I really enjoy the thrill of the hunt. :) And I don’t mean the thrill of hunting - I’m dogshit at PvP. I meant the thrill of being hunted. Trying to outsmart the incredibly talented and organized PvPers out there by utilizing dead content and other clever strategies. And eventually I found other people there who really enjoyed focusing on skilling and quests and minigames and collection logs! I made a lot of good friends there. :) I mean. I set down osrs indefinitely a few weeks ago. But it still warms my heart to see people talk about permanent dmm even if you only have negative things to say and they’re basically all true XD

Sadly have to agree. When I started playing MMOs in Ultima Online, PVP was my driving force. Same thing when I went to WoW. Yeah, I raided, but it was because I wanted the best PVP gear. And then when arenas came out, that was my focus. Then around 2010 life happened and I stopped playing MMOs. Fast forward to Covid and WoW classic is out and I think oh yea let's relive those PVP days. Except.... it was never nearly as fun. It was already meta gamed. Everyone was way better than they used to be. No longer did I have a desire to pop into Warsong Gulch just because i had some time to kill and want to fight people, now the only reason to go in there is for the rewards. Pretty quickly I became a PVE andy. When TBC and Cata came out, I gave cursory attempts and trying to build arena teams, but it just was never 10% as fun as it was back in the day. Now I just don't really care for it. I would love to feel that feeling again, but just the way games are instantly broken down and meta gamed makes me also doubtful it will happen again in the setting of an MMO. Especially since, as you pointed out, there are now PURE PVP games that you can play to scratch that itch, and they are more varied than before. Back in the UO/EQ days, there was Counter-strike and that was about it. Now there's FPS', mobas, etc etc.

an interesting case to look at might be guild wars 2. it has a pretty skill based pvp system with basically no barrier to entry besides having to get good at it. it also has a faction based open world pvp with territory based objectives. both modes are reletively populated too but I never see them discussed outside of the game

Idyl i gotta give it to you, i respect you so much for putting up a video of you when you are sick, next level standards!

Optimizing the fun out of PVP can't be understated as a reason for its death. Scrapping with randos back in the day was fun precisely because neither player really knew what they were doing. It felt like a genuine brawl with relatively even odds. Nowadays it's of course completely different. Unless you're geared for PVP and also know the right rotations, tactics, matchups, etc you realistically have a near 0 chance to win against a player who does have all of those things. I think of it like button mashing in a fighting game. If both players are mashing, the game is fun. But as soon as a guy who can do combos shows up he's completely untouchable. Of course, if both players can combo the game becomes fun again. The problem is that the combo-ers gatekeep the button mashers such that becoming good is an extremely arduous process. There's no training mode in MMOs, only the meat grinder.

PvP used to be super popular, as content used to be lacking for PVE. Now Bossing has become way more enjoyable for the average player. I still like PvP in concept, but it's not something I really do anymore.

It's probably impossible to make PvP as big a thing as it used to be in MMORPGs nowadays, not because everyone is older but because information is so readily available. Even new games get optimized into an early grave, because people are working together to, in a sense, break them. They end up not playing the game itself but the meta, the game above the game which essentially determines most of an outcome before even the first blow has been struck despite many a declaration to the contrary, and any competition that has reached that point necessarily precludes most people who are still just playing the game; against those who actually, and effectively, play the meta, those players have no chance, evidenced by a premade BG group stomping randoms. The one hope against the meta is RNG, entropy, the element of chaos that, when introduced to an ordered system, will produce heretofore unexpected results; a random BG group beating a premade in example. Yet even here there are elements of the over-game, the meta, which work to influence the outcome; a random grouping of high-skilled players, lethargy on the part of the premade, an unexpected but provably effective stratagem, so on. So that even when chaos works to twist the outcome the meta plays a part, and because random chance is less reliable than a cereal fork the primacy of the meta remains. Basically, because the meta-game exists I think it's only ever a matter of time before any sort of PvP game or mode loses its luster in the eyes of its players, and our interconnectedness as a species through the internet has shortened that length of time considerably.

Big problem with battle royals is the large amount of luck that is needed for the win.

2003 to 2007 runescape pking scene. I was there. Anti rushing claws, pking 100m godswords. Owning the high lvls who think they're better. Taste vengeance!

I think pvp in osrs would be more popular if you could just have hot keys for individual prayers. F1 prot melee, f2;mage etc

This was such a damn good video, even though I love mmo pvp (not participating in it almost at all bc I suck at it) and believe that there are still possibilities to achieve those awesome n00b vs noob pvp open world experiences out somehow and in some points of time. :)

Could dying from the pressure of online education, perhaps taking on too many courses simultaneously, be death by SNHU SNHU?

For me the primary deterrent to getting into PVP is the knowledge that once I step off that cliff, I'm going to lose thousands of hours of grinding my personal skill on top of needing to grind for the best gear for whichever form of PVP I am engaging in. I suffer delusions that I could probably do pretty well at PVP if I'm willing to pull the 500 plus hour learning curve time investment, but I just can't pull the trigger on a time investment like that willingly. I find specifically old school PvP enticing, but not enough to set foot in the wilderness against demons like Dino or the other content creators i watch. The sheer volume of precision clicking and decision making going on is something that is paralyzingly overwhelming

Pokémon Colosseum music popping up in all sorts of videos I've been watching lately and I'm all for it.

If I want PvP I load up Mordhau, Elden Ring, any one of a massive list of fighting games. The Wildy is just stressful, especially as I play an Ironman. The risk is huge, the reward is middling, and no amount of rskill can make my account benefit from getting jumped.

I think the best open-world PVP MMORPGs will be sandbox niche games, and that's ok. The private shard Ultima Online:Outlands has done it the best in my opinion, as it has an extremely robust PVE/roleplay world, but also open world FFA PVP. All towns are completely safe from PKs, and it's open world FFA PVP everywhere else. However if you attack an innocent players and get 5 kills, you become "red" and can be attacked freely by anyone without any repercussions and you can't go in cities. You also have a stacking penalty for each kill, where it becomes more and more expensive to rez if you die, and your killer gets part of that gold (nice gold sink too). You also can't commit any criminal action for a good while in the region you were in if you get killed. There's also a ton of organized PVP events, although I never participated in any of it. I just enjoy the dangerous world, even though I know i'm far from the majority. It also has an extremely robust PVE system with incredible build depth in a classless game, but almost all of it doesn't work in PVP, so you're never really "outleveled and outgeared" in PVP, which is amazing. Although you do drop everything that's not blessed on death, you do keep the important PVE stuff (codexes, spellbooks, skill progress). Almost all the PVE power you have comes from these personal skill systems that you level up over time, so what you drop is mostly the basic consumables and loot you got so far in your run. The player crafted gear is also excellent, and although you can risk it by buying the more expensive materials, the cheaper ones are almost as good and orders of magnitude cheaper (think 10x cheaper, but maybe 5% less good). So dying and dropping stuff isn't the end of the world. Despite all this, it's of course still an extremely niche game and it's not for everyone. But is that really a bad thing? The server has been going strong for 5 years now, and more popular than ever. Devs are absolutely amazing, the community is for the most part great and very supportive of new players, of which there's a surprising number. The second expansion is about to come out. When you have 2-3k players logged in at all times and the server has players everywhere playing in all sorts of different ways, that's all that matters to me as a player. It looks like Ashes of Creation is going for a somewhat similar system to manage PK penalties and i'm very curious to see how it'll unfold. As for more mainstream MMORPGs, I prefer when there's just a handful of always-on FFA PVP servers where you can just go nuts in an unbalanced environment. Again it's a niche playstyle, but that's why everyone that doesnt like PVP can play on PVE servers (possibly with a PVP toggle on/off). I would have loved New World to release at least one FFA, always-on PVP server. I'd go back and start again at lvl 1 in a heartbeat if they released one. Maybe one day :)

I'd suggest taking a look at Gw2. Of all MMOs I've played, their world vs world mode is the best MMO pvp experience imo. As someone who generally avoids pvp, I like gw2's quite a bit.

That last bit in the video to keep people watching your patreon followers list was genius IMO. I never watch those lists, but since its funny I decided to stay!

I wish discord would get this video a billion views

loved the video thanks

I'm honestly shocked you didn't look into Elder Scrolls Online, as I think it's original PvP system of a war campaign map and the Imperial City/Sewers is a good take one open world PvP! Especially with certain campaigns putting everyone at the same level cap, forcing the game into a real test of skill and prep, as opposed to just having higher numbers!

(the first one) lmao mate I'm so glad your channel is growing because you deserve it, fantastic writing and editing, keep up the stelllar job!

Did Josh Strife Hayes take the hair from all the other MMORPG content creators?

Need the link for the music at the end. Cover of boulevard of broken dreams

your Intros keep getting better and better mr president

I just wanted to point out that dying in Albion in fact has a penalty and it's not a nice one, especially for casual players. The stuff you're wearing is damaged pretty bad for every death you experience and it's pretty pricey to get it repaired if you have higher level equipment.

Can't say I have an opinion on this subject one way or the other but I enjoyed listening anyway :P I love your sense of humor and editing... seriously underrated channel, keep up the awesome work!

Long time WoW and OSRS player. 100% casual pvper for wow, barely touch pvp in OSRS. In fact, the only pvp I’ve ever really done is a little castle wars a long time ago (why would I do it now) and LMS for the MSB imbue. Oh and soul wars but that’s a meme. For me personally, I’ve always loved AV in wow. More so when the teams ACTUALLY fight one another and don’t just beeline objectives. I still remember a time where I had over 300HK’s in a single game. It was fun as hell. Like you said though, people min/max the fun away. They find the most optimal strat for farming currency and it becomes the meta. As for OSRS, the barrier to entry is just too much for me. I don’t have the hands to match good pvpers. AHKing is also still a thing and you see it in pvp videos to this day. Can’t remember the creator atm but they had a no armor duel against someone for full torva and the opponent does a whole gear equip plus double spec weapon swap in 1 game tick. Uh huh. Legit player. OSRS definitely is a PVP scene I won’t do just cause I know I’m going to lose my ass in gear trying to learn. WoW at least gives you the chance to learn and not punish you every step of the way. Like you said, risk vs reward though. No risk in wow so people try it more, but rewards are the issue and the challenge for the really good pvpers is more and more scarce.