The bounty - twitter.com/TheoryFighter/status/1388419422210121728

"Unwinnable matchups" could be a format for a mini series of its own! Lookin at really bad matchups and evaluating why they are so one sided would be funny and interesting :D

Whats weird, is that Honda is one of Gief's toughest matches in most variants of SF2. Especially if Honda gets a life lead.

POV: You're Chun-Li in Super Turbo and Fei Long has you in the corner.

I've never noticed how "veiny" the vs is between the fighters name is

To me it sounds like the kind of thing that was lost in the details. That walk up forward honda does or even a short walk forward from geif is all that's required to be in range for the throw. I think it was a lot of "you can get the throw basically at the beginning of the match bro" that turned into "i remember getting thrown by geif at the beginning of a match".

Longshot and I'm sure you already tried this...but is it possible for Gief to walk forward slightly and then SPD at a position and timing such that Honda can't jump out? I know SPD has instant startup and jump preframes can be thrown in SF2...so maybe? Probably not, though...

This is basically the Mandela effect of fighting games

For those of you who don’t know, it was discovered that this 10-0 MU did exist in an SNES beta version of the game (I remember seeing it on Twitter but I do not remember where to find footage of this matchup in that version).

I thought about the matchups in Super Turbo that are simply depicted as “1” for like Zangief vs Akuma.

The round start SPD does exist, but there is a requirement to it: First, you must defeat Sheng Lon--

I recall the early SF2 versions having some odd balancing choices. I used to main Blanka. If Blanka's rolling attack met E. Honda's super zutsuki it would one-shot Blanka. Literally 100 health to zero. Not fun, although I think it was fixed later.

It'd be funny if there was a move Honda can do that immediately extend his hurtbox forward in a way that lets the SPD reach him and whoever first saw this was just a masher lmao

It's the whole "Animal Farm" debate again, the ol' "yes it does exist, but the proof is in something always unobtainable". When the beta is revealed and it's shown not to be the case, it'll then be moved to a rumour "oh it was a capcom tester who said so in the Alpha version" Etc. And be honest, how many people not only played the beta, but were also good enough in that short space of time before it was updated to not only discover the error, but also pull it off.

Wasn't there a version of Champion Edition where Zangief couldn't duck under Sagat's high tiger shot, and he couldn't jump over it? That's a 10-0 if so.

From what I understand, when SF2 was in beta (location) testing they had found that Zangief was winning absurd amounts of games time after time. It’s possible that it, as you said, was in the beta that has not been publically released.

A matchup so vile the game version it was in was redacted from history. That would make a really funny creepypasta tbh. "Zangief beats E. Honda so hard he locks away the SF2 beta"

That is some melee Marth-tier grab range

The SF2 devs have said in interviews a few times that one of the biggest changes they made after the first location test was a major Zangief nerf because somebody just bodied everybody who challenged him with Zangief. They overnerfed him which is why Zangief's hitboxes in WW are pretty bad. I find it hard to believe that this was the source of the rumor though - SPD is a really rough move to execute for a new player, would the first guy to ever play as Zangief, before anyone on the planet was "good" at fighting games, really have figured out such a memorable exploit with it, and then talked about it enough for people to remember? I don't think we'll be seeing this board dumped any time soon though - I very much doubt that it still exists.

World Warrior was some crazy, wonky stuff. The legendary "handcuffs" are a perfect example.

That SPD range on one of the versions is as if Honda teleported into Zangief's arms for an upside down hug

I hope someone comes for that £100. This is pretty interesting. Great work so far trying to track it down.

This yt channel is rapidly becoming one of the most interesting i'm subbed to. Auto watch tier.

Yeah, it always sounded like a myth to me. The distance is just too great, either the fighters would have to be closer together (which I haven't seen) or Zangeifs hit box would have to be TRULY monstrous (and that would be more memorable than the 10-0). That leaves glitches which is possible but seems odd. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible but my gut has always steered me towards it being false.

The most likely possibility, in my view, would be that someone just did not have the presence of mind to do something other than walk forward as E. Honda. It was most likely someone Young, as well as someone who had Honda as their favorite character and would walk forward against all the other enemies while almost never going up against zangief.

I severely doubt it. Even in the messy dev cycles of the 90s I really don't think that anyone on staff would look at the hitbox of SPD and allow it to reach anyone at the start of the round. Glitches can exist but they tend to be based on doing weird stuff that that confuses the game and in SF2 they seem to mostly involve hit boxes disappearing when they have boxes getting involved and not moving. The only glitch I could see working for is if there was some glitch that caused the starting position to be a little closer between characters.

I never knew arcade machines had balancing patch chips... This changed my perspective on a few things.

So if you do a SPD with Fierce on both sticks at the same time during the 1st round start, Gief will then transform into Hagger from Final Fight. But first you must defeat Sheng Long.

YES! I"VE BEEN TESTING EVERY WW I"VE COME ACROSS FOR YEARS SINCE I FIRST HEARD OF THIS ABOUT 6 OR 7 YEARS AGO AND NEVER CAME ACROSS IT! I WILL ADD $100 CAD IF SOMEONE CAN GET VIDEO FOOTAGE FOR THIS

I just saw this video today - and YES! YES it was real!! We used to witness it in the arcade all the time - The thing is .... it was 'nearly' always on an arcade box that had some sort of action replay device! You know, you could do fireballs in the air, no cooldown for sonic booms that sort of thing. So, I'm guessing that people are remembering matchups on those machines, where Zaingef really could just grab you right at the beginning, and there was nothing you could do about it!

I'm pretty sure the myth has it's origins in "casual" play. A lot of young/casual players were aggressive and had a tendency to move forward as soon as they had control. If both did so on the first few frames in a Hondo/Zangeif matchup, the range would be right to start the combo. Over time, people remembered it as a completely lopsided match up to be avoided but forgot that forward movement was needed from both players for it to lead to the lock.

@TheoryFighter Actually, during the location test days of SF 2, the man himself ( Yoshiki Okamoto, back then he was the producer)has a video about a Zangief player who was beating everyone else and caught the attention of the Capcom employees who were sent there to watch the game balance and the reaction of the public in first hand, and he adds that "-Nowdays someone may say that Zangief is weak, but, that's your fault, the Zangief player that forced us to make him weak because nobody could beat you !" We could contact him on twitter or even on KZfaq to clear the circumstances around that matter during those days, because he also said on another video that Capcom employees were sent to the US and yes, he kind of specified the location test area on that video, if we could get everyone on Discord or Zoom to discuss this would be amazing, because I do believe that Capcom DID test the beta versions outside japan during those days ! Yoshiki Okamoto video talking about "the Zangief dude on the location test" is here : kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ebGAo5yFu924g40.html If you have someone in mind that can speak and write in Japanese, you may contact him, on his own KZfaq Channel, there are links to his Social media there as well, I hope that this information may be useful for you !

Could such a glaring oversight slip through Capcom's testing process? Thank you, I'll be here all night.

That's weird because I remember playing Turbo and Honda could basically walk around using hundred hand slap and make it so you as Zangief could never be in a position to hit him out of it.

We are in the age of computer learning and tool assistants to test all of this kind of stuff. I would like to see machine learning soul calibur and the like going at it.

Svc is a damn underrated game there should be a 2nd one someday

Great vid 👏👏 My guess is Honda walked into it and people remember it as round start It is a ridiculously distant grab after all

Remember when SF2 first came to the SNES , people were always refering to Zangrief, because he was such a tough character to master. Clearly over the decades, that changed

The real SPD was the friends we made along the way.

Somewhere in that “mythical” ROM are tables which define Zangief’s reach and Honda’s hit box. Increase either one sufficiently and that should do the trick.

So cool of you to put up a bounty and such an interesting story. I’ll fire up the roms that I have just to check. Sending Good Vibes

That piledriver range is wild.

As a kid growing up in Brooklyn that I was straight up punching with Chun Li and no one could beat me. It was the light jab and she would punch punch and throw you down. . Those were my sf2 glory days

Did you try it with Honda crouch blocking? It may make his hurt box thicker.

Your content consistently gets better all the time. Great stuff

Sean vs Chun-Li: SVC Chaos

I liked the spirit for chasing a myth. I recall that I could manage KO Sagat with only 2 LP DPs with perfect timing by whiff punishing his tiger uppercut in SF2 World Warrior. I searched it but there is no footage of that. It may be a good challenge to record that one.

I know the comments mentioned it already but perhaps this came from one of the console ports. Granted World Warrior was only on SNES (not counting the obviously drastically different 8bit and computer ports) but I guess it wouldnt hurt to check the Genesis version of Turbo. Perhaps someone misremembered "Special Champion Edition" (which despite the name was basically just the genesis version of Hyper Fighting) as being one of the early editions

I was expecting the 10-0 matchup to be in Honda’s favor. In SFII, he can’t jump over Honda’s Hundred-Hand Slap.

It is possible on SNES version

I love the dedication. I love the research. Great video. Thank you.

4:06 Respect the commitment brotha. It's the kind of thing a help would be the best tho, what could take days might be done in 1 or 2h.

Not a hacked version like black belt or rainbow edition ?

MANDELA EFFECT SPOTTED

Yo dude keep up the good work! I love these types of channels

I enjoy your process of ensuring credibility by refusing to dismiss the possibility that it exists. You work though all known vectors, expand your search, and continue. That's a very professional way to do it!

Even with a game this old and effectively obsolete, I would have to imagine at least one person would make a video if it were indeed possible. I suspect this is one of those gaming urban legends that just took on a life of its own.

Did you try the console versions?

This is gonna sound random but when I was a kid I was on holiday in Spain and I completed the street fighter 2 arcade game in the hotel. I used guile and I figured out a way to throw a very slow sonic boom thing and you could cover the screen in them. Once the first one hit you could just load up loads of very slow sonic booms and the opponent could not escape. It was so strange that I’ve remembered it to this day:

Thanks for all the work you do!

Saw this discussion in the Alpha 2 discord. Really hope this gets solved! Edit: yea it was found like, immediately after the video was posted lol

There was another one which I only saw once in the arcade many years ago (I was the one that actually did it) - short uppercut with Ryu taking over 3/4 health energy from Blanka when he was using the spinning roll attack. Almost 1 move kill!!

Thanks for your dedication in this. I would have never known

I love these thorough research videos.

In Dissidia 012 for the PSP, Jecht vs Emperor is 0-10 in Emperor's favor on most tier lists. Granted that game never really had much of a competitive scene for a variety of reasons, but it's the only time I've ever seen a 0-10 matchup that didn't involve a banned character.

Could this be possible in the SNES port? Maybe since it's been a long time the games got confused but idk

So, 6 months later, has anyone been able to find this? I'm really curious. I occasionally rewatch this video, not just because it's interesting on its own, but to look at the comments to see if something was finally found on it.

Funny thing is I remember doing all those soft lock, crash, and other glitches on original sf2. Especially with Guile, dhalsim, etc.

I always hated that "cheaty" AI. The CPU should have to play by the same rules the player does!

Pretty sure the rainbow edition can SPD grab from any distance :D

As someone who used to SPD ryu’s guile, anyone with a fireball - if your opponent’s shadow comes into range with Zangief’s Throw range, you could SPD. If you block the right frame of a move, like Ehonda’s Hard punch / sweep, you can input SPD and before Honda’s done - caught. You also could use the spd as a landing capture, so if you can range yourself out of the jump, direction did not matter, input the SPD and the second the opponent lands, captured. This dominance is why Zangief started getting grab animations and capcom toyed with his technical aspects. If you could not bait zangief players, you lost

What if Honda mashes at round start? Can you throw a whiffed move or Hondas punch special?

I thought it’s was gonna be about Dhalsim Gief lmao

Opening with Snk vs capcom chaos my 2nd fav fighting game of all time!!! Nice.

Good content! Something unique and new'ish ... its appreciated. I was subbed already but i never saw yiur vids on my feed ? But i will have you on my radar from now on.

Some moves increase hitbox. So on round start, if Honda did a move that increased his hitbox while Gief simultaneously did an SPD, theoretically it could connect.

babe wake up new theory fighter video

Considering the setup of the move forward, that actually seems like there might be another explanation that would also cover why the roms aren't working for it. It might have been a hardware bug that was rather minute but uncaught and thought a part of the game, something that has popped up in even modern consoles. Drift...the same things that the Nintendo Switch joy-cons have had since that came out and has been a relatively common mess with just about every joystick to some level over time. Basically, having something going wrong with the stick that it might register movement and start it just enough that it dumps him into range for it with hardware having the issue.

I did that all the time with Zangief when I was a kid in arcade centers. It has a requirement, your opponent has to do something to expand his hitbox. Ryu always starts with a Hadoken, grab. On high difficulty Honda will use Hand Slap as first move, grab. If any of these didn't happen. You won't get it. Back in the days arcade centers loved to wind up the difficulty which it always have some moves at the start. If it's not a jump or moving back, you can pull this trick.

played on 1 of the first version in London goodge st where a capcom staff was present and also the first SF 2 tournament in London & never seen zangief spinning piledriver at the start... I call it highly unlikely considering at the beginning hardly anyone pick zangief also doing 2 hit combo + spinning piledriver that came later on.

Good vid, worthy of an episode of Pop Fiction.

Be careful man, someone may make a rom hack (modded rom) and sell it to you as the beta. In any case, good video :)

found u on reddit. 4:05 is why I subbed. jesus that must have taken eons

I sort of found myself in this part of KZfaq. I'm amazed at the level of interest Street Fighter still draws. I used to play the original SNES version back in the day 30 years ago. Man that makes me start to feel old 😂

Wait for people to mod the game just to try and get the bounty

see, @TheoryFighter you really put in the effort. that's what makes you more trustworthy than the average r/streetfighter edgelord funhater. you tried it in every version of street fighter world warrior, which was probably a really tedious boring task, and then you posted the bounty and request in a bunch of places. there isnt much more you could have done. Real Science is testing things that have already been deemed proven, to see if they still hold up. you are a true FGC scientist, not just a videocreator

The only thing that makes sense to me is the game was probably an arcade cabinet of one of the "unofficial " knock off versions with broken moves. I can imagine of the didn't have a zangief infinite with a farther range throw.

who remembers Guile's upsidedown roundhouse freeze handcuff and magic throw glitch? damn. i still remember the button sequence 30+years later

Why you always showing Ken losing??

Round start spd? Never heard of it. Playing since 91

The CPU must do it. It's godly with Zangief. He would bolt forward using the facing direction as start and end the SPD command. The slower circle allows zangief to step forward for half of the command.

Wasn't a "Zangief main" but I did notice the "extra range" on the USA and EU releases on the SNES. I know you're referring to the arcade version here. Just happy to see that there was an explanation for this :D.

mandela effect mannn...

too bad i didnt get that 100 dollars, someone posted an hour before i found this

What's the channel for the fighting game lore podcast you mentioned? I'd love to check out the full podcast.

Hey TheoryFighter do you consider Melee a real fighter ?

4:52 I once was against the CPU, and I think the enemy honda (I remember it was a honda) may have moved some pixels forward just before he got grabbed. Maybe that's the secret sauce...

Zangief can't do this combo (jump-knee, crouch-jab, SPD) against Ryu or Ken, right? Because they can just Shoryuken, which is invincible and hits anyone out of any move unless he's blocking. Does that jump-knee hit before the Shoryuken can be started by a rising Ryu or Ken?

There was definitely a version back in the day where if you were on Hondas stage using Guile against Honda that you could do Guiles invisible throw every time right out of the gate and Honda couldn't avoid it. However because you could only do the hold back then forward version of the invisible throw,, Honda would be out of range to get a second invisible throw. It may be possible to hold forward at the beginning and then go back and hit FP FK to get Honda to be thrown toward you instead but I've never been able to get it to work. Maybe someone else has. Anyone else an og guile player who discovered the invisible throw and used it to kill other players without them being able to even do a move? 5 invisible throws in a row, was hard to do, but when you did the people you beat weren't even mad they lost their .25 cents, they were just amazed it happened.

WW was a wild game. Ohh the memories of a simpler time as a kid. The near-fights caused by accidental throws.