Okay, here are the problems explained: In Sonic Forces, they clearly took into mind keeping faith to the classics. The improved rolling physics (which I don't believe are scripted) are a good example of this. The problem is that they went a little TOO faithful, bringing back a problem that was in the original Sonic 1 that was fixed for the better in Sonic 2: the speed cap. This was intended to prevent Sonic from accelerating infinitely when just holding right, but also ended up causing him to not be able to pick up any speed by just running down a slope; he had to roll down it to gain any momentum. In Sonic 2, it was modified so that when running downhill, he WAS capable of surpassing his normal maximum speed when heading downhill, which is what enabled simply holding right to work on the huge slopes in Chemical Plant. The problem in Forces is that Classic Sonic now has his Sonic 1 speed cap behavior, meaning running downhill won't gain him any more speed than just running on flat terrain, which is what causes his slowdowns after using dash panels. Combine this with his trouble climbing ramps in Generations and you get situations like the slopes in Forces's Chemical Plant. The other reason why Classic Sonic feels so clunky in Forces is that his velocity is completely reset when he lands back on the ground, losing any horizontal momentum he built up. I have no idea why they did this because it didn't happen in Generations; perhaps it was meant to make platforming easier? So, really, Classic Sonic's control is very easily fixable, and could just be remedied with a simple patch. The question is, will they do it? The answer is no, no they won't.

"From the team that brought you Colors and Generations" Yeah. Sure.

“Where are we?” “The chemical plant.” “Where in the chemical plant?” “The chemical plant.”

Chemical Plant (Chemical Plant) My favorite Sonic location.

*IT'S CALLED GLOBAL WARMING, TAILS*

9:17 Fun fact, in Shadow the Hedgehog, if you try to shoot Sonic during the boss fight, he'll do a side step to dodge. Not while running though for whatever reason.

EVERYTHING is short in Forces, levels, drowning time, cutscenes, and even speed up and invincibility time

Sega was finally getting the pieces together. They just needed to combine what Unleashed, Colors, and generations did right fundamentally. But nahhhhhh.

Sega needs to stop riding nostalgia to play shit safe, especially if they can't even get something as simple as old formulas right. Bring on the next new experience and make sure it's competent.

It feels like you're the playtester of this game and these were meant to be the videos you sent Sega / Sonic Team to point out the bugs to fix.

I love how Chemical Plant looks so much better in Generations, a 2011 game on older hardware, than it does in Forces

Classic Sonic should've never been shoe-horned into Forces to begin with. The physics engine in Forces is so horrible for Classic. Christian Whitehead and his team would have a field day laughing at Sonic Team's incompetence.

I can't wait for the upcoming "It's just Robotnik with a gun" boss!

from my experimenting with the game, there is an acceleration cap while running. this applies to Sonic, Classic Sonic, and the Avatar. rolling for whatever reason as well as boosting doesn't seem to have this. that means that when running even if its downhill you never build up speed past the speed cap.

You're the first person that I know to ever feel bad about leaving Tails behind. You sir are a man of class.

They assumed everyone only liked generations because of classic sonic Painfully accurate

Sonic’s probably tired from his Adventure in Mania

Chemical Plant [Chemical Plant]

Sonic Forces? More like Sonic Foooour years in development? *How???*

sonic: im sure we'll run into him again me: NONONONONONO, KEEP HIM IN MANIA!

Just leave Classic Sonic to Taxman and Stealth please Sega.

Sonic Team should make games like this: Modern games: With Adventure story and Boost gameplay (but not Boost to win) developed by Sonic Team without Iizuka, also not 2D. Classic Games: More games developed by Mania's team.

2:45 "Why won't Eggman just let me die?" Protagonism

Yessss, another person who appreciates Knight of the Wind

I'm starting to see the issue presented with Sonic Forces, and why it's such a poor man's Generations. There's a clear problem with what they tried to do with Forces-fitting three separate playstyles with their own mechanics under the same physics engine. Modern Sonic seems to have a good grasp on the physics engine (barring QTE's, bland enemy placement and the more-than-occasional "Press and Hold X to Win"), as his jumping is on point and feels natural to move around. Considering that the Avatar's stage design is similar with slightly different mechanics, it makes both Modern Sonic and the Avatar the most fun part of the game (even if it is short and bittersweet). As with Generations, however, Classic Sonic shares the same physics engine, and thus has quite the amount of problems, even with the _basic platforming_ that's found in every Classic Sonic stage ever made. Because of this, Sonic Team spends more time trying to figure out which parts of a stage need scripted sequences to move the game along so the game doesn't feel incomplete, when in reality it's 80% done and the other 20% is a facade to make the game _look_ finished and meet deadlines. Or, they could have not included Classic Sonic because *SONIC MANIA EXISTS.* It honestly baffles me why they decided to do this, as if they just went with Modern Sonic and the Avatar, they would have had more time to make a better Sonic game-ala, longer stages that had multiple pathways to fill that sense of exploration and fulfillment, unique enemy placement, better QTE's (seriously, this is some of the most laughably easy QTE's Sonic has ever had), and a refining of the mechanics to get rid of some needless scripted gameplay. Basically, Sonic Colours with a darker tone and an Avatar to play as. Hell, throw in the daytime stage mechanics for Sonic Unleashed (When Sonic was going so fucking fast that I just had a blast). It shouldn't be this hard, Sonic Team-yes, making video games in general is difficult, but you guys have made a great Modern Sonic title before! _C'mon, step it up!!_ Tl;dr, Forces tried to put way too much into one game to appease everyone in the Sonic fandom, even when Mania did a very good job to successfully appease Classic Sonic fans. If they stuck to just Modern Sonic and the Avatar, Forces could have had more time to flesh out itself and exceed expectations so that there was no sour taste after experiencing such a game like Mania. Alas, hindsight can only be 20/20. Addendum: This is why I would love to be a game designer and/or QA Tester at Sonic Team.

It's the sonic 1 speedcap but actually worse...

One of the main problems I have is that Sonic Team seem to think Classic Sonic = Crappy MIDI Chiptune Music, Generations at least had some effort with Cash Cash doing the mixes but here, it's nearly as bad as Sonic 4! What makes it worst though is that THIS YEAR we got Sonic Mania which EVOLVES the classic style of music, even in the cases where we got new tracks it still felt very 90s and fit in well with the rest. Just annoys me that two people can figure that out but an entire music department at Sonic Team can not.

smh where's my Mania comparison

conclusion: leave the 2d stuff to the mania team

Missed opportunity to add in Mania to the mix.

I hope Sonic team and Sega realize that this is on them, not on the modern franchise's bad.

Now I know why it's called sonic forces it's because will be trying to force classic sonic up the dam ledge 😐

2:34 I've got to express an alternate opinion on this one. In my opinion, those fans are a good compromise between the sort of hardcore/skill-heavy/etc. games that we want, and a casual element that allows newcomers to Sonic to make it through. For someone like me, who *loves* redoing stages for the best time possible (not sure if I'd call myself a "speedrunner", though), falling into that pit is _still_ a major loss, since it sets me back and guarantees I cannot defeat or come close to my previous best time. For me, at least, I've already lost then. However, for someone who just wants to complete the stage, those fans provide a safety net against what would otherwise probably be an incredibly frustrating experience. Resultantly, we skill/physics/speedrunning/etc.-lovers, and casual audiences, each get a little something out of this. I myself do wish Forces was more difficult and skill-based, and hope future Sonic games certainly are, but for this particular feature in this particular game... I think the fans are an acceptable and understandable inclusion.

I love how you issue valid criticism about Forces generally being very easy like at the fan section, yet reviewers still use the "cheap deaths because fast" excuse to deduct points, that has been in the template for every Sonic review ever. Did they not play it and realize that the flaw this time is how this game is so boringly easy or do they suck at games?

How is bouncing on enemies in Forces any more accurate? It just feels like gravity gets stronger with every bounce.

Man I thought I was the only one with the problem with classic sonic.. his physics are so off

_STAGE_ 18 Chemical Plant *CHEMICAL PLANT*

Mods will make Classic Sonic very fun to play. And I can't deny I was more excited for Classic Sonic more when I assumed this was a second Generations, but not so much its own game. Maybe next time they decide it's okay to use him, Christian Whitehead should program the guy. He'd at least make him very fun to play. He did still feel clunky in Generations. Speaking of, I hope we get more stage mods of that. Very sad we never got DLC packs for more Sonic 1, 2, etc. More stages mainly with series packs. That would have been nice. And yeah, Fist Bump is fine, but I've never been a fan of ballads. City Escape was the only time I thought it was fitting, but it felt more like a song you'd hear well you're generally moving which is why it sounds cool and it opens you up to Sonic Adventure 2 so nicely. Fist Bump just explaining the characters' bond feels alright to me at most.

When Classic Sonic was first announced to be in Forces, I didn’t see the point. Sonic Mania existed and it eliminates the point of Classic Sonic paired along with Modern Sonic in a less accurate game engine. The customizable furry soldier made classic even more confusing. Especially considering it’s one of the main focuses. I haven’t played Forces yet, but this video proves that nobody at Sonic Team cared, they probably just added him for the biased classicists who won’t buy a modern Sonic game. That being said, the inaccurate physics shown off in the Green Hill reveal would have made them pass the game.

Why can't Sonic Team (and or SEGA), watch these videos and try and fix the game? Like, I'm trying to do all of the challenges (e.g - Beat Chemical Plant in 1:10) and I can't because Classic feels SO fucking clunky.

So its a reverse sonic 4, rolling works but running doesnt...or it sorta doesnt. Honestly im happy to have rolling be usefull again.

7:31 And with that SupaGoGoMan reignited every Sonic fan's traumatic childhood experiences with exploding star robots and mechanical mantis's.

RIP Tails, he lived a good life. Sonic has always been too slow to save his buddy.

Classic Sonic feels like rolling around a baseball covered in sticky mucus

*Tiny boy*

Classic Sonic was ok to bring him back for Generations but other than that he should have never been in Forces or include him in any Modern Sonic game from now though I have the feeling he will return again (Forces ending)

I really respect that you brought up that Forces DOES in fact improve some things (mainly rolling physics).

that was the funniest non-verbal dialogue I've ever read in my life

WHY IS THE TEXT IN ALL CAPS, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE ALWAYS SCREAMING

Geez, is the Caps Lock button stuck inside your keyboard or what?

Sonic Forces brought back one of my biggest pet peeves in the Sonic franchise, characters talking during gameplay and that same voice clip playing every single time

The loop is probably what Sonic 2 8 Bit does with its loops (If you dont know, automates the speed depending on the speed your going then, this allows you to let go of the controller once sonic enters the loop and just wait for it to finish.)

If they would script it manually then what they should have done is force the player to spin into a rolling form.

Well at least getting an "S" Rank isn't as hard as it was in Sonic Rush for example. My childhood self hated it so much, I only did it as Sonic. When I got to Blaze I was exhausted and just gave up.

Dude you're literally doing the test lead's job right now. User Experience testing (is the game fun? does it control nicely, etc...) is one of the most important tests done on a game and it feels like no one bothered to do it with Forces

2:16 i actually straight-up like this, the underwater sections here are designed to be something you run through quick instead of fucking around in and the fast drown timer helps push you along

I feel like as long as the level design accommodates whatever physics sonic has well enough for me to still fun, then I'm cool with however they try to imitate the old games. For example, in Forces chemical plant, the drowning music may come up quicker than past games, but it perfectly fits that stage since its water sections are smaller in scale.

Your videos make me wonder how such bland text can have such a fun personality.

I think of it as the speed cap from Sonic 1. Similar to this game, Sonic gains momentum by rolling down a slope and whenever he gets out of the ball, the speed cap takes away all of his momentum and is now at the caps top speed.

2:32 ah yes, that part from chemical plant everyone loves, fucking up the moving platforms and having to go up the rotating blocks again i actually really like this change, no one actually ever enjoyed getting fucked over by this sort of thing and the fans make you lose a bit of time (which is the thing most people will be replaying levels for)

You known... i like this video. I like you, fellow.

The other two play styles in Forces is fine. If they took out Classic Sonic it definitely would have been a better game. With CS I feel like they improved the rolling but the jumps feel too heavy.

If anything, I'm just glad the Avatar and Classic Sonic aren't just "hold button to autopilot stage and win" like Modern Sonic.

this game actually makes Generations classic look like Mania

It seems like not only is his running speed cap is too slow, but he loses momentum at the same rate, which is not how momentum works. And I don't mean just for Sonic, but just momentum in general. Whomever designed this really did not know what they were doing and figured lets add bounce pads, boosters, and scripts to create the illusion, only that they couldn't even do THAT right with how obvious and shoddy it all is.

Sonic No Man's Sky Forces

XD "it's called global warming, Tails!" Me- pretty much!

9:24 I mean if they put it in the game, then he probably could. Even Shadow can eventually build up to the speed of a bullet in Shadow the Hedgehog (the bullets in that game, at least), and with them having boost now, they don't really have to build up that momentum anymore

In short, this is a sonic 06 sequel.

This isn’t sonic mania sonic this is sonic 4 sonic

This and the green hill video is showing me in depth of what’s wrong with classic sonic... (I haven’t gotten the game yet) and I gotta say it’s kind of interesting (and unbelievable, kind of). Good work.

"It's called global warming tails" You killed me!

2:08 *climate change

SONIC FORCES YOU TO PLAY SONIC 4 EPISODE III WICH IS THIS GAME

You're exposing Sonic Forces like Berleezy. Keep up the good work!

i just can't believe Sonic Team CANNOT replicate physics they made in 1991. Even if its 2.5d now, cmon!! you had this 25 years ago!!

3:10 hold the fuck up. Also why was there a speed pad right into the end sign?

Boy that level Music is awful, I mean Half of Classic Sonic soundtrack is.

the problem with S ranks in newer sonic games is that there isnt usually a score keeper anymore, in which games like sa2 you needed a higher score to get an A rank while at the same time going fast to get the Time Bonus

"Hey guys look! It's chemical plant (chemical plant) from sonic 2! Can you feel the nostalgia?! Did it convince you to buy sonic forces?!"

Why was Classic Sonic in Forces again?

"Like they assumed everyone only liked generations because of classic sonic" PROBLEM is, that many people fucking only liked Generations bc of CS. Actually, I take that back, I'm the only person that I know in real life that actually liked Generations for anything *but* Classic Sonic(I've always hated Classic Sonic and Wing Fortress Zone and the unholy trinity just proved that once again.)

The biggest challenge in this game is playing to the end with a sane mind.

Me going into this video thinking it’s interesting (and it was!) only to get greeted with “why doesn’t eggman just shoot sonic” at the end 😭😭 that threw me off that it made me giggle lmaooo

chemical plant is my least favorite zone in sonic history (so is hydrocity)

When people say the fist bump music was milked, I thought they meant the super sonic theme, but now I've realised they've overused it too much for the invincibility and even that pyramid level in the boosting section

Glad I'm not the only one who's bothered by it. That and jumping just feels wrong sometimes it feels like you hit an invisible wall.

There is no way in hell that I'm letting someone torture me by forcing me to play Chemical Plant until I flinch

"just finding it will be a chore" right you are tails.

Been loving your analysis videos on this game. I must admit though you seemed to be able to enjoy a lot more of the little things than I was, the worse handling of classic and modern sonic just really put me off the whole experience.

For those wondering why Sega can't just "Fix this" The problem I think is more with the physics engine used in the hedgehog 2 engine used for forces. It isn't something you can easily correct. This is why mania's physics are so spot on, the team behind mania could perfectly recreate the physics since mania is in a 2D space. This means with the use of pixel perfect measurements you can fine tune the physics engine of mania to match up with original. This isn't really possible with 3D Sonic

Classic Sonic felt so shoehorned in here, and they even went out of their way to cram in the Mania references (The Phanton Ruby, The original theme when Classic is introduced, the drop dash), and it just feels phony

Green Hill: Green Hill Chemical Plant: Chemical Plant Death Egg: Death Egg Wow, this game is really creative...

I actually like how the music is muted when you go underwater...

Classic Sonic is just there to keep Tails away from Modern Sonic so your fursona can have him all to yourself.

Everyone complains about the glitches and broken physics but I just see them as a nice challenge.

Keep making unrelated comments in your videos they're so good! That thing about Shadow killing Sonic 👌

lel just what we wanted...Green Hill again...Chemical Plant again...Casino Night again...Metropolis again...Death Egg again...😶

According to Rouge, there should be a database somewhere. We have to locate the building it's in! There's a lot of ground to cover, so just finding it will be a chore.

Instead of tyring to please the fans, they should just focus on making a good game. This game does not feel like a four year project. It instead feels like it was thrown together just make a quick buck. SEGA never fails to disappoint. I miss the old Sonic Team.