Ok, so we disagree 😄 I really don't make aluminum bronze any more but I do make tin bronze and the same conditions exist, the tin melts at a much lower temperature than the copper. I used to put the tin and a portion of the copper in the crucible together, heat it up, and wait for the copper to melt before adding the rest of the copper. Now I heat an empty crucible till it is somewhere near copper melting temp and then add the tin and a portion of the copper. The tin obviously melts very quickly in this arrangement but the copper melts quickly too. I don't know that I lose any tin due to it burning off.

Forgot to add, good craftsmanship.

Perfect. That is exactly what I want to have happen. Thanks for letting me know that. You made my day!

swdweeb No problem boss

Kinda a rite of passage, making your first alloy. Good luck with it.

Yeah, I guess they use if for things like bushings because it work hardens. I drilled some tin-bronze the other day and it drilled without a problem.

Usually the shrinkage from cooling causes the ingots to release on their own without the need for any release agent. It's only when i pour the metal all over the top and it gets into the cracks that I have a problem ;-)

I can tell you from personal experience that melting that much metal stinks. I mean smells really bad. If it's dirty or painted or anything that's not pure, forget about indoors. I do it my garage and I have to have the front and back door open to keep air moving through and the smoke from building up. Sometimes thats not enough. Making non-sparking abrasive sounds really cool. Will it be bound to something like canvas or free like for use in a blaster?

I'm doing some amateur diy chemistry, so I have very good ventilation. I also like the fact that an electric foundry/kiln is quiet. The grinding media is for a ball mill, milling aluminum powder, blp, etc. My plan is to cast aluminum bronze cylpebs.

What??? You don't want to stand next to a deafening rocket engine like Paul and I do?? :-D Have you figured out how you're going to make your molds? It would seem that you'll need to make a bunch of cylpebs. How big are they?

swdweeb a cylpeb is basically just a short cylinder. A steel pipe, cut to pieces of the right length, welded to a steel plate should work. Do you know how to get the aluminum bronze as hard as possible? Quench or not to quench? Any thoughts?

I don’t know. I do know that I let a piece air cool yesterday and I could hardly cut it with a hacksaw. It just skated across it. Ended up cutting it with a cutoff wheel on my grinder.

I've got four of them stacked on the desk here with me now. Makes me feel like I'm in Fort Knox. :-D

Doh.. start collecting it again. If nothing else it's probably worth more at the scrap yard that the other stuff ;-)

Stop stealing from the glaziers, lol. Local 740.

It gets used for things like bushings in corrosive environments like boats. It has its uses. Just remember George and the turtle. I’m not kidding about that 😄

Well, thank you! 😄😄

It really is. I think that is why so many casters like making and using it.

I think its a little like a rite of passage. Everyone seems to feel the need to do it. There's no doubt about it making an alloy is pretty cool. This alloy isn't all that great but if you can find the copper, it's easy to make. I've grown to dislike Al-bronze as it shrinks so bad its a real pain to pour. Get your extra-large feeder ready. ;-)

Imagine the cool hood ornaments you could be making for those beautiful cars of yours. ;-)

Oh man, you have no idea how badly I don't want to cause an explosion :-D I actually had +olfoundryman make the same comment. Prior to that I had been given comments that said you should melt the aluminum first and that they copper would begin forming the alloy at pre-copper-melt tempereatures. What you and +olfoundryman said makes perfect sense and I'll be doing that going forward. Assuming I find more copper to melt, I'm out :-)

@@swdweeb Maybe somebody said this somewhere, but molten Al is very corrosive, it dissolves the copper at well below it's melting point, that's why you melt the Al first! The melting point of Al bronze is lower than Al melting point!

@@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc Another of my early.. ignorant... videos. I now know better realize that the alloy starts to form before the copper melts. I melt the aluminum first now. Although I really don;t do all that much aluminum-bronze as it shrinks so badly. Pretty much do tin-bronze instead now.

Hi Ron. Not yet. I've a had a few requests for one and I'm curious how it will sound myself. Finding the time is the issue at the moment. I have a long weekend coming up. I'd like to try it then.

I’ve seen plenty of that grey color using petrobond. I always assumed it was a reaction to the oil

@@swdweeb the color of this recipe turned out to be a very light colored like a champaign color. It's was't golder like a brass. But it does have that tint to it. I expected a golder color but this will work for me. It machines excellent.

Thank you, I appreciate the encouraging words. Have a very Merry Christmas. :-D

swdweeb merry Christmas to you too 👍👍

Thank you Andy!

That's a tough one. I'm guessing here because I don't have a good answer. I've heard of people having moisture in their molds that cause steam when the metal is poured in. They generally heat the molds to drive off any moisture. That seems unlikely and I've never preheated my steel mold. The other thing I've heard is gas being introduced in melting process. This is why people use "degassers" in their melted metal. This happens whenever there is oxygen present during the melt. Again this is something I've never seen and I've never used a degassing agent. I guess the last thing I can think of is metal being splashed into the mold during the pour. I doubt that you're doing that but maybe... Those are the best I can come up with . Sorry I don't have a more definitive answer.

Thanks for watching! 😄

I assume you are talking about dross that is formed as the metal melts. This is due to metal oxidizing. Once thing you can try, and I know this is going to sound crazy, is to add a little borax and a small piece of broken glass to the metal as it is melting. The borax and glass will melt and float to the top of the metal covering it and keeping it from oxidizing. I have greatly increased my yield with tin-bronze and copper by doing this. I don't really make aluminum bronze any more but it should work the same. Of course you will need to "scrape" the glassy liquid off the top of the metal before you pour. If you don't, you will get a brown-colored glass in your metal. You don't want that.

Well, thank you. Ok, I had to go watch the ending again. What was it about it that you liked? That I can't point or that I linked Paul? ;-)

Thanks! I was going to try and do it today but I think I'm going to look for a hair dryer at the thrift store so I can try forced air like Paul is doing. It takes me forever to get hot enough to melt the copper. I think I'm also going to make a smaller flask so I don't have to ram up so much petrobond each time.

:-D Thanks, I try to have fun while I'm doing this stuff.

+swdweeb I'm glad you took it the right way unlike some people I have seen anyways I subscribed to your channels and I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of good stuff from you

+swdweeb anyways I am curious have you ever tried doing glass before cuz you can make some real beautiful things out of old glass bottles

I don't need any more hobbies, stop it! ;-) I haven't tried glass. I'd have to look into that. I don't know how hot you have to get it before it melts.

+swdweeb well that's okay last pretty difficult to work with anyways doesn't flow smoothly like metal slows more like honey any rate you do a good job at mixing Metals anyways I'm going to watch that video about making the hammer I'll bet it's just as good so far looks like you guys do good quality work and that's what I like to see so keep up the good work

Yeah its hard stuff, but with hardness often comes brittleness.

I'm pretty sure I had reasonably pure copper. I made my ingots out of copper pipe and cut off all of the brass fittings that were on it. I ended up with dross on top and below the copper when it melted. So I thin I got most of the impurities (lighter and heavier) out of it. Someone else made similar comment about the white smoke being aluminum oxide saying that I got the aluminum a lot hotter than I needed to before I added the copper. I've since made more like in my follow-up video on the hammer and with that I added the copper much sooner in the process. I haven't seen the white cloud again. I generally try (not always) to make ingots first. I find that I get a lot less dross whether its copper or aluminum from the ingots than I do from unprocessed scrap. Thanks for your comments. :-)

No, I don’t have any proper fluxes. I don’t use table salt or borax

I'm glad you're finding my videos helpful. Thanks for letting me know. Alloys are done by weight, not displacement. Smelting, FWIW, is the process by which metal is extracted from ore. By the time we get it all we're doing is melting it. ;-)

Someone else told me the same thing about not needing to overheat the aluminum. I would have never guessed it but the explanation I got was the alloy can start forming at a lower temperature than the copper melting point. I'm definitely going to try it a lower temp next time. Thanks

Yeah its kind like soldering, solder actually dissolves some of the copper to make the bond. As long as the aluminum is molten, it should start dissolving the copper as well. I've also seen alloys made the other way around, melt the metal with the higher melting point 1st, then add the lower melting point metal. If I remember correctly, that was a pro doing it in the video I saw. Not really sure which way is right.

It wasn't the aluminum that vaporized it was the copper I've seen it a thousand times it's a white smoke with a green flash stop. Cover that melts that fast will vaporize some every time

I'll open with "I don't know". There, now that that is out of the way, can I ask why 70:30 instead of 90:10? I know from personal experience that too much aluminum in the ratio will make aluminum bronze very brittle kzfaq.info/get/bejne/grVpnZd81Mq4o3k.html. I didnt measure stuff in that video but I estimate I was down around 82:18 with my ratio. I'd be very interested to hear how your cannon turns out.

@@swdweeb 30% cu 70 Al forms a low melting point eutectic, which is lower than the melting point of aluminium so would be very easy to handle and also one could use a large crucible made of steel which is cheap...In terms of safety and economy it is the best way to go....

@@wijpke I misread your original comment as 70%cu 30%Al, not that it would have mattered as I have zero experience in the alloy you're describing. As I said before, I'd really like to see how things turn out.

I assume you mean compared to bell bronze (approximately 80% copper / 20% tin). I don't know the answer. It has been a long time since I made aluminum bronze and I seem to recall seeing if it rang. I don't think that it did. There is probably a good reason bells are not cast with it, I just don't know what it is. It could be that its too brittle. It is very hard.

yeah, we all feel that way about the next generation ;-D present company excepted of course. That's a good question. It gets yellow hot but I don't know if its the spectrum that is a problem or the intensity. I did a quick google search and found nothing. If you come across something, let me know.

swdweeb I couldn't find much of anything, ecept for steel. But that's alot hotter. Invisible infrared could be a problem, because you can't feel that cooking your eyes. It's like looking at the sun through dark glass, it might not hurt to look at, but if it doesn't block IR, it can still cook your retinas. Do you wear any eye protection when doing this, besides normal safety glasses/face shield?

I just spoke to Martin about it. He does not believe molten copper is damaging to your eyes. Don't take either of our words for it, but the general consensus is wearing welding goggles presents several safety concerns as well, like not being able to see anything but the glowing metal. Martin wears a clear safety shield as do I.

Thanks for finding out, that was my thought as well, I was thinking its more dangerous if you can't see what you're doing, than the potential danger of eye damage looking at the molten metal.

Of course I also don’t stare into the furnace any longer than I have to either but I always have my face shield on when I do

Thanks

Ha! :-D Thank you. Merry Christmas to you as well.

Aye cap'n. ;-) I had to go back and watch the video to figure out what you were talking about. I forget what I said all of the time. You're absolutely right.

You seem like a decent fella. I subscribed and hit the bell to get notified about all yer uploads. :D

Thanks, I think I am but I guarantee you there people out there definitely disagree ;-)

I think I might know a bit about that. I am a jerk, after al. LOL

That's a good question. I really haven't done that much casting with aluminum bronze. Like many people it was the first alloy I made since the components are so easy to come by. It does tarnish, no question about that. I have coins that I've cast that are now tarnished (and I think look better). I can't tell you how quickly they tarnish though, I've never paid attention to it. Sorry

whether I did measured correctly is debatable. The alloy is made by weight.

@@swdweeb thanks for the information. I’m pretty new to this, you videos are great keep them coming

@@kevingade5615 No sweat, I was confused about the ratios when I first started as well

the alloying metals dont need to reach the extreme temps needed for all of the alloys, just the temp of the alloy your making. I know that you need to get the alloy to pouring temp, but to get it to dissolve all together, you just need to get it to the melting temp of the alloy your trying to make, not the highest temp metals in the alloy. Otherwise metals with ~1% titanium or tungsten would need to get way above the temp of the boiling points of the other metals, and you would just damage the other metals. It will dissolve at much lower temps. Try sticking a copper wire into some aluminum at aluminum temperatures, it'll dissolve into it.

Fascinating. I read both your comments. I had no idea. So let me ask you a theoretical questions. I noticed that the second copper ingot took longer to melt than the 1st. Do you suppose that was due to cooling the melted metal when I placed the warm copper ingots in it or that the melting point of the first alloy was raised after it formed? (1st alloy being the aluminum and 1st half of the copper) Thanks for the info!

part of it was melting temps of the mixed alloy raising higher and higher as the copper is added, part of it was the solubility of the copper into the melt based on the copper, and part of it was just the ingots that you were adding was cooling the melt too.

Thanks

I would melt the aluminum first and then add small amounts of copper to it. The aluminum will react with the copper to form an alloy at temperatures lower than the melting point of copper. Keep adding copper until you achieve the ratio of copper/aluminum you want. Copper is hard to melt on it's own. It requires a yellow heat in my furnace to melt. I've found that the bronze melts a little lower temperature.

Well, there’s only a few problems with that. 1) I don’t melt brass. Zinc fumes scare me. 2) I don’t have pewter and I don’t know where to find it. 3) I’m having issues with my burner getting copper alloys to melt.

@@swdweeb Thanks for the reply. I get pewter cups and candle holders from Goodwill and Thrift Stores. When you can find it, cheaper than ingots

At the risk of having you unsub me, its Devil Forge, not forage and why would I buy one when I can built a better furnace at a fraction of the cost. I am planning a new furnace build this spring. I think it's going to be pretty darn nice.

Unfortunately approximate is all I can do. I've already removed all of the original footage so I can't go back and look at timestamps. It was about 5 hours start to finish. Most of the time was spent waiting for things to cool down enough for me to handle them.

if you mix it with that high a ratio of aluminum, it will shatter like glass.

@@swdweeb I'm going to have to re melt it.

I use propane

...and a very Merry Christmas to sir as well. :-D

I've never used a flux for anything. Not saying it wouldnt help, I've just never used any. If I want to insure a good mix, I've melted the metals, poured them as ingots and then melt the ingots for the actual pour. Be careful with stirring. Keep in mind that stirring will stir in oxides and dross into your metal. If you're going to stir do it as gently as possible. In line with your other comments, aluminum bronze is the absolute worst when it comes to shrinkage. It shrinks more than anything else I've poured, much more.

I already responded and told you propane. If you want to know about my furnace look here kzfaq.info/sun/PLU1QP34Dv8Y7pdce_FW6IFtLlL44pfI3u

@@swdweeb thank you sir for your response, I try I think it's very beautiful in jewery use

Thank you. You made my day ;-)

Me personally? No 😄 H. Kramer & Company sells a few copper/nickel alloys. www.hkramer.com/ Cu Sn Pb Zn Ni Alloy 1 57% 2% 9% 20% 12% Alloy 2 60% 3% 5% 16% 16% Alloy 3 60% 4% 4% 8% 20% Alloy 4 66% 6% 2% 2% 25% Hope that helps

Darn good question. Tell you what, when the temperature of my garage warms to somewhere near freezing this morning I'll run a file across it and see. Maybe I'll put that in the next video as well. I'll respond to you here as well.

Other than steel, most metals end up in a harder state if they’ve been cooled slowly than if they’re quenched.

Ok, I did a small casting tonight. it's soooo cool but you'll have to wait till the next hammer video to see it. ;-) I can tell you that letting it cool in the air makes it really hard. I couldn't cut it with a hacksaw, it just skated right off. I had to use a cut-off wheel to cut it.

I'm always hesitant to question people when I know almost nothing on a topic ;-) Where does copper fall in that argument? I heat copper and let it cool to soften it. Is it an edge case or is your comment really related to alloys as opposed to "elemental" metals? I really don;t know and would live to learn.

Hi. Sorry, I do not know what you mean.

Molto simile 😄

Ti do una con ferma e veranente oro yes e oro 24 karati

Io sono un chimico

@@massimilianoilardi3571 Quasi altrettanto costoso da realizzare ora. Il rame costa così tanto adesso.

E in fatti il coppe costa e anche il casting costa tanto il ram e oro 24 karati yes il rame + il casting sono diventati gold l'errore che anno fatto nel due mila 14 gia io sapevo che cera qualcosa in quel metalli io extrargo oro dal rame yes

I agree, making bronze ranks right up there with one of the cooler things in life ;-)

+swdweeb I wish I could do it as good as this guy does a lot of metalworking videos and everyone seems to be so professional and but when it comes to metal working I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground but I sure would like to learn

I knew very little if anything when I started. Probably still the case. There are some great people out there on KZfaq that are more than willing to answer questions and give encouragement. If you run into someone that won't talk to you, move on there are others out there that will. Oh, and you can do any of the things I do, all it takes is money ;-)

Ha! That it is, that it is.

Nope just an old man that has pretty much given up on KZfaq.

So here is what another commenter (is that a word?) said. He said that you don;t have to get to copper melting heat before the alloy will begin to form. I did exactly what you're talking about and took the aluminum to near copper melting temperature. When I added the copper, the reaction was very fast, The first ingot melted into the aluminum almost instantly. That's when I get the plume of smoke that you didn't get to see. He said that they alloy will form at lower temperatures than the copper melting temperature. At least that's what I interpreted hi words as meaning. I melted the alloy tonight and made a casting from it. I can tell you that the allow took nearly as long to melt as my pure copper so I don't know. I watched a video where the guy melted the copper first and them added the aluminum. If I recall correctly it nearly blew up so I don;t recommend trying his method.

I've been told that the alloy can actually start to form at lower temperatures than the melting point of copper. Aluminum is a fairly reactive metal. I melted the copper first and then added the aluminum one time and I got a big white cloud out of the furnace as soon as I added the aluminum. Havent done it that way since ;-)

Dropping cold metal into 660 degrees is safer then droping into 1000 degrees. Amatuer. Swdweeb you did it right. You gotta watch these know it alls who never done it commenting. Lol and they always claim to have all this experience but they say things that experienced people know don't work.

Ever dropped ice into boiling grease? Same concept. You always melt the coolest melt metal first then add and heat it up

Thanks for the confirmation ;-)

Don’t forget that you don’t have to melt all metals in an alloy, metals will dissolve into other metals at much lower temps than their melting point.

I have no idea. Aluminum is food safe, copper is food safe. The bronze I make probably isn't because I started with old plumbing pieces so they contain lead in the soldered joints. A lot of it gets left in the crucible after the melt because of its weight but I wouldn't bet that none of it remains in the bronze. I don't see why you couldn't make a skillet out of it. The melting temperature is close to that of copper. It would weigh about 600 pounds and cost a fortune to make but you could probably cast one. ;-)

😄

Thanks Kevin

I know, that's what I thought too. Unfortunately it hasn't happened ;-)

That didn't last long, they've been jumping ship like mad this afternoon. Down to 247 now. ;-) Welcome and thanks for coming on board.

ciao amico

All of the measurements were in grams, the math is easier. The ratios are the same, 10% aluminum by weight and 90% copper by weight.

I'm not sure what you mean

@@swdweeb like copper for example has a higher rate of heat dispersal than aluminized bronze is there a way to increase the heat dispersal of aluminized bronze?

@@buckaroundandfindoutok, lets make sure we're talking about the same thing. Bronzes are copper alloys, that is copper + tin, copper + silicon, coper + aluminum,.. Aluminum bronze is a combination of aluminum and copper. I assume that is what you mean when you say aluminized bronze. That said, I'm not going to have an answer for you because I simply don't know. Both aluminum and copper have very high conductivity which is why both are used to transmit electricity. Both are also used in cooking utensils like pans. Copper is typically marketed as being better at distributing heat in a pan. Aluminum pans are simply lower cost so people buy them. The only way I can see improving the heat dispersion of aluminum bronze would be to add more copper to the allow or to coat the aluminum bronze with copper, like through electroplating. That is if you can improve it at all. Sorry I don't have a better answer for you.

@@swdweeb I'm merely asking because I'm trying to design a new type of engine and I'm thinking about using aluminized bronze due to its corrosion resistance, I was wondering if there was a way to mitigate its expansion due to clearance.

@@buckaroundandfindout Ahh... ok. I still don't know 😀 You'd be better off finding a metallurgist, which I'm not and unfortunately I don't know one either. You might try if a company like www.hkramer.com can point you in the right direction. I have a handbook from them that defines the characteristics of a number of alloys.