Sounds about right.

When I die to Spy: "Ahhh, why nobody is spy-checking/Why didn't I look around more/Man, that Spy is fucking good" When I die to Sniper: "Thanks man, next time I'll try to not show my face for more than 0.5 seconds"

@one one danger shield exists :(

@one one Chad

Though I haven't played TF2 very much I have noticed spy usually can get the most value on his first life when the enemy doesn't know you've switched to him yet. He gets his value at a critical moment then your often better switching out to a more general purpose class like scout or soldier.

Perfecly balanced

@@quintencornelissen2274 as all things should be

Ehh, still valid. Scouts usually get cocky when dealing with light classes. Baiting them into a sentry is another great trick to pull.

ei supa vc denovo

@@Thomas90012 o cara é mestre em me achar

I never considered doing this Next time i get behind an enemy sniper i'm disguising as a heavy the fists out and run at him battlecrying

@@dumblenutz5561 just dont get shot in the face

@@boomeronet7888 i will outsmart boolet

For me is backstabbing snipers with the holiday punch as an heavy, then pootis pow them everytime i can

@@anstorner Based

Lol me too

me too

Bad vid name choice

Same lol

As if it were Htwo's fault that you don't know what pick classes are.

Agree

you forget they have to have better aim skill than your dodging skill. dont represent how op a class is by analyzing theoretical maximum skill. its not realistic so it doesnt matter.

@@Suddsy11037 How do you dodge a hitscan weapon? The most you can do is a spastic rain dance and pray they miss. They still control the entire interaction.

I dont agree. You can pressure them whilst mostly staying in cover, and they can only aim at one person at a time. Also they tend not to look up.

@@zebraforceone to pressure them as anything other than sniper you either have to have tomislav kritz or are playing soldier unless they are rather close. 7 out of the 9 classes can barely do anything to a perched sniper. If they are playing passively (which most snipers are) they can just eat you from any distance no matter how much chip damage you chuck at them. If they arent shit or using the classic rushing up on them only works mainly in a vacuum on any map with long sightlines as there is always a extremely high chance of their team intervening either killing you or giving the sniper enough time to either retreat or merc you. Now in casual you probably will be able to get em eventually but the fact is also thats minutes of game time taken up just trying to stop 1 player from holding down an entire choke mainly through threat with little to no threat to themself (and also a 60% chance they instakill any spy or scout that does actually sneak up on them with a kukri random crit but thats outside of the arguement)

Yeah, but not every sniper CAN do that.

But the fact it's theoritically possible, even practical for some. Is ridiculous.

@@adrianmarc5430 "No, don't take away my free frags! The other classes require too much skill to play, I need my sniper easy mode!"

@@adrianmarc5430 Not every soldier main can use the beggar's bazooka to jump into a sentry nest and market garden a sniper like our guy just did in the video, but those that can aren't rewarded nearly as much as a highly skilled sniper main, who's sitting next to a dispenser on upward last, racking headshot after headshot, even on the poor f2p spy that tried to backstab him. By saying "not every sniper CAN do that" you entirely miss the point of the video. Playing sniper (with good positioning) is risk-free at any moment as long as there isn't an opposing sniper threat. The same however cannot be said for the 8 other classes, who are in danger not only when there is a sniper threat, but literally whenever there's any other class fighting them in the frontlines, too. "Urm, ackhually.... scorch shot exists...." Darwin's danger shield exists too. "Well.... you also have um.... spies.... urm...." And you also have the razorback, let alone an entire team of (hopefully) competent teammates, some of whom are bound to be pyros who naturally spycheck everyone. Spy has "high risk and high reward". Sniper just shits on the aspect of risk and heads into the casino knowing full well that he rigged the machines for a jackpot.

@@deskslam4232 Do you main sniper?

Right! I've always thought that was weird. The magazine on the Sniper Rifle is tiny, yet it fits 25 full-powered rifle cartridges like it's magic! Irl, snipers usually use tiny 3 to 10 round magazines (plus one in the chamber), because small mags are less cumbersome when you have to shoot from a prone position, plus they are much more reliable than greater capacity magazines. The only rifle where it makes sense is with the Classic, since it's (sort of) based on the G36 assault rifle, which has proprietary translucent 5.56x45NATO magazines, with a capacity for 30 rounds, but obviously the G36 is a select fire assault rifle, not a precision bolt-action rifle. On top of that, Sniper works the bolt pretty quickly... much quicker than regular people. Conventional bolt-action guns are known for their reliability, accuracy, light weight and simplicity, but they are not as speedy as lever/pump-action guns in operation! So, basically, it makes no sense that Sniper can shoot both as fast as he can, and for as long as he can without running out. In my opinion, I think he should use the heaviest duty, smallest capacity, most slow to reload action possible for a rifle: breach-loader. I would arm Sniper with a rifle like the Martini-Henry, which can only fire a single (quite powerful) cartridge before having to engage in a lengthy reload. Such ammo is heavy, so Sniper would only wear eight of such cartridges in a bandolier. Damage, range, zoom level and headshots are the same. How about that?

Also huntsman is VERY hard to learn and require some lucks

i def think the sniper rifle should only get 8-10 shots and should have a significantly slower reload

​@@orangeblorangeThey could make him do the reload animation from meet the sniper

@@Apoollo_11 nah. if you play a projectile based class, huntsman is easy.

Sniper's high damage output also means he naturally has a higher crit chance if he's doing well. And if he's on a server that doesn't allow random crits, he still has the Jarate and Bushwacka to force crits.

The worse part of the “avoid sniper sight lines” argument is that no one really expects you to follow it. If everyone in a server was to follow this advice, the sniper would have to only get closer to get a better sight line where there are actually enemies, and then what, retrieve again because the sniper moved? That is basically giving the game for free to the sniper, it’s not like he’s a sentry (in which case the argument does work).

Also, a big reason Spy isn't as frustrating is because he's terrible. If Spy was as good as Sniper it would be as frustrating because he's just as uninteractive.

The main issue is quickscoping being too fast, so if you dont see a beam until you peek, some snipers literally pull headshots within less than half a second which is impossible to react to

@@mauroghen9157 the problem is, any good player can kill you before you know it. What makes quick scoping any different?

Legit this a competitive shooter not splatoon

you can hardscope into a corner by hiding your dot/beam

@@mauroghen9157 the time it takes to scope in and register that you can headshot is only about 50ms faster than the average reaction time. so... it's not impossible, but it can be hard for newer gamers who don't halve heightened reaction times. for example, I'm able to dodge a headshot when I see a sniper scope in, so I'm sure the laser beam will make it quite a bit easier to do just that.

zzzzzzz skill issue zzzzzz

@@don_chan3638 just dodge the hitscan type of argument

@@artifactU Just play medieval mode, only in this will you finally stop seeing Sniper having an unfair advant- Oh

@@ElPolloLoco7689 yeah, the huntsman is more fair than the rifles i guess but i still hate it

@@artifactU problem is: now you are constricted to only your melee (unless you go sniper too but that's also the same problem with regular sniper everwhere else as talked about in the video). same problem, different conditions.

if valve nerfed every single one of his secondarys except the Cleaners Carbine and SMG into the dirt he would be a way more fair class

@@DannyCheezits I mean, it does increase his skill cap

@@gaidencastro9706 Classes should not have items that fully disable their hard counters to the point where they do not exist as a threat anymore. Its as dumb as if scout had a gun that blew up sentrys in a single bullet but the downside is that you dont have a pistol. Every one of snipers secondarys should either have its effects reduced to the point of being redundant or should have drawbacks far greater than its positive traits

Sniper with Darwin's Danger Shield effectively have 250 Health against Pyro

​@@DannyCheezitsRemove or nerf sydney sleeper too

And if u decide to go sniper as well just hope that Sniper isnt some dude with 10k hours on sniper

I’m a pyro main (combo pyro), and everytime I know I could survive a situation, without warning I’m at less than 20 hp and die……. Very fun

A razorback sniper next to a sentry nest manned by a competent engineer is legitimately impossible to kill unless you outsnipe him. And that’s with a single guy defending him!

You're just bad. Adapt and overcome or quit whining.

so all i’m seeing is a 13 min video is someone fussing about a sniper doing what all snipers do

The huntsman sniper is way more fun in my opinion

that allows for heavy dominant meta where he is completely unkillable and just ruins all and every game by simply existing, you would be forced to remove heavy then as well. also medic automatically becomes even stronger even thk he is the strongest class in the game. i say this as someone who plays both sniper and heavy out of necessity (and tothe point where they are my 3rd and 4th most played classes of all time) because in order to counter heavy on somr maps you need to go heavy yourself and sometimes its better that you go for sniper instead. imo if heavy was somehow rebalanced, then rebalancing the sniper as well would be warranted, maybe making the sniper rifle have a bulley drop and no charge.

@uros7320 Heavy really isn't that dominant with Spy existing. And even if you want to argue that spy is weak, heavy's slow movement still leaves him susceptible to splash damage, especially from corners. Just don't fight him head to head. You really don't need a sniper to do it for you. And he still has the rest of his weaknesses baked into the cake. Those being his speed and need to be in good positioning to be as effective as possible, that doesn't change with sniper being less effective or even gone, since you shouldn't be standing super exposed as a heavy anyways unless you want half the enemy team to gun you down anyways. And as for Medic being "more powerful", the only difference that comes from removing sniper is that there'd be 8 classes instead of 9 praying on his downfall. Literally every class in the game is out to drop medics. Just makes it less free than shooting him from across the map. If anything it would make medics more confident being in the open, which would make for more interesting plays to drop the med instead of both meds playing safe. I really can't think of much else that would change. I don't want to delete sniper, I understand why his niche exists and what it does. I just think he is far too powerful in his current state and should be nerfed.

@kennysalty6019 you are just wrong. sure a retarded heavy in 12v12 will be killable by spam from demos ans soldiers and even a spy here and there but try playing valve comp where there are 6 players. heavy slows those games completely, and forces the other team to pick him as well. heavy is my 2nd most played class in comp only because im forced to play him. a good heavy will be aware of the number of players he sees and in comp there are voice coms, so 100% lf the times your team will warn you of a spy decloaking behind you and stuff like that. i have had game on heavy with comp where i went 30 and 0 on payload. that class is extremely unhealthy for the game, just have a medic pocket you with quickfix and you can sustain any damage, position yourself decently and you just hard carry every game to the point that the class looks unfair (which it is). he needs to be reworked in a way where he has less dps because rn he is a big problem.

@uros7320 If you're playing and using Valve Comp as your playing field you're making a mistake. That's a largely dead game-mode with almost no serious or non-serious players. They all migrated to actual 6's with outside tools. It is not a genuinely competitive environment for tf2 despite Valve's efforts to make it so initially. In those games, standard team comp is 1 Med, 2 Scout, 2 Soldier, 1 Demo. Medic aside, all are high damage, high mobility, highly flexible classes. Heavy is lacking in two of those three things, which is super important for sixes. His natural stats nerf him. And this natural team comp disproves that Heavy would be over-abundant anyways, because there's almost never an enemy sniper. Heavy still gets hard bodied by this team composition. You're using a negligible source for your position on this. Sorry if you're ranked Death Merchant, but even Valve largely abandoned the official comp gamemode. And considering what you've told me, you'd probably get eaten alive in scrimms If you want to make a case for Heavy being "way too good without sniper", you have to talk about the Highlander gamemode type, where more map types are played aside from 5CP. Both teams have one of each of the 9 classes. And even then, Heavy only really stands out on defense when he's positioned correctly. Removing sniper would only broaden the range of good positions, requiring more game-sense on both sides of the field. His natural stats keep back from functioning well anywhere else. Heavy really doesn't need a rework that nerfs him.

Do you have any shred of evidence to back that up ?

@@elfascisto6549 I think it was from an old video of uncle dane where he was talking about the one time he went to the Valve HQ and jokingly asked for the spy to be removed from the game and Robin Walker or another TF2 dev (i don't remembler correclty which) answered them by saying that if there were a class to be removed it would be the Sniper. I think the video is the one array seven, it should be on uncle dane's channel

@@nieno9760 wouldn't trust that delusional donkey

@@nieno9760 I remember he left a comment on of Sirky's videos where he said this but also that the TF2 devs were REALLY good at Sniper (to the point where they get a lot of hackusations).

@@elfascisto6549 I like how you come here guns blazing as if what he just stated was somehow false, Sniper is broken, deal with it !

That’s actually an issue with the jarate, as the cleaner’s carbine is fine with the bushwacka. Jarate is a near instant AOE of mini-crits that you can apply with a quick peek and that’s why it’s overpowered/banned in comp.

Just jarate in general is really powerfull I'm pretty sure using it for your team is better than just doing this combo to kill the gibus spy that missed his backstab

@@homesinc jarate wouldnt even be half as useful if the bushwacka didnt exist, its an issue with the bushwacka

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 no, its an issue with the jarate. a quickly recharging, aoe, marked for death applier. You could also say its an issue with minicrits and their removal of damage fall off

jarate's range is also kinda bonkers on its own I remember fish on a stick throwing it on the tower of thunder mountain last map it didnt land near anyone and behind a wall yet everyone got douzed, insane

No way people are using that video to prove this it was so bad.

​@@HeDronHeDronHedronI mean it's his hypothesis, he got his information and made a conclusion, though I'm still against removing Sniper though

@@HeDronHeDronHedron why was it so bad?

@@artifactU didnt account for the sniper mains fun experiment was only 3 days experiment didnt have controlled skill levels experiment DID have limits of medic, which do not exist in casual tf2 people joining the experiment may have been biased towards shounic or against sniper, so they already thought it'd be more fun and never thought it through

@@HeDronHeDronHedron fair enough, i just wanna be able to play tf2 without snipers tbh

Best solution would be to give classes more ranged dueling options that aren't the scorch shot. Or entirely negated by an Item Sniper has.

@@uncledoggo That's an awful idea honestly. The game is very subtly designed around everything happening in close-medium space. That's what makes the game so interactive and fun. If you give everyone convenient long-range options it'll basically turn into another battlefield clone when everyone is fighting each other from kilometres away.

@@kaschey6145 It also means that Demoknight, Spy, and Scout become useles.

scout? smg

there are some weapons that need skill such as the huntsman (in my opinion)

Yeah I saw that video, it was actually a very interesting concept. It at least lets you know what spot on the map to avoid, but it still doesn't really allow true interaction. He's still making it tough to actually get close to him in a similar way

@@PefectPiePlace2 If you have fun playing as Sniper. Which ... I'm now realizing has never been true for me. I don't like playing Sniper. I like the class itself, but playing Sniper isn't fun for me. It's boring, and winds up leaving me more depressed than I would've been dying as, say, Medic or Heavy, or any other class.

@@MegaGaming11 same

valve really gave mvm snipers a laser to make them fun to fight, but not actual sniper, theyre buggin fr

Perhaps they can put that feature in the source² mod of tf2 thats being made

i mean if you are at low hp and die by the smg he did the right choice, its a close range pistol but dying by a close range headshot that i hardly managed to pass he´s entire ass team and sentry gun? thats bullshit (like imagine if i still have 80% of my hp remaining sorta)

50 damage body shot hitscan weapons without charge, getting to a sniper is hard due to his team so your typically at low heath. So the sniper can just run away and click on you like two times and kill you.

​@@tiorast6802And his secondary is reliable. It isn't like he can stop airal movement, take no risk body shots with no fall off, back away with a speed that can't be cought up to easily and can use melee to a very tired, very low hp target with no downsides on his secondary, primary, melee and his entire damn team is there? Oh wait, There is.

You're saying that like it's the easiest thing on the planet. News flash pal, hitting someone who's shooting you in the head at point blank ain't easy. Those clips you see aren't all that common. Even for the best of snipers, those shots are extremely hard to hit. But I will say that jarate bushwacka is bullshit and should be removed from the game.

​@CodeTheProtogen Yeah it is true quickscoping is hard to do and takes a ton of skill. Rather than I remove it I'd say make it take longer. Like after a shot make it so the Sniper has a longer reload. If he hits a quickscope, he lives. If he doesn't, he's as a good as dead. Sounds fair in my opinion.

I mean, you are right because the most important frontline classes use projectiles, and all classes but sniper are usually very bad at long range (ignoring issues like Wrangler go brrrr). But, they are not the majority, atleast considering only stock. Stock Heavy, Scout, Sniper and Engineer use hitscan Stock Demo, Soldier use projectiles. Stock Pyro technically uses particles, and Medic has the syringe gun but really should always have the medigun out. But in a way they can count for your example. Stock spy is I guess both hitscan and melee based. With melee of course being also, well, melee ranged. Of the hitscan classes, the only two good at range are Sniper (it's his job after all) and Engineer (sentry autotracking, the infinite pistol ammo pool for extremely annoying chip damage).

@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Spy is arguably the best non-sniper class at long range because of the fact that the revolver deals a meaty 21 damage at max range. You can do some very significant damage at a very safe range with it, and if you're lucky, a full 6 shots will kill a light class without ever being in any real danger. The wrangler, sure, is quite good at range but a sentry is stationary, so it's easier to prevent yourself from being damaged by it. I'd argue balance wise that the revolver should just have its spread either reduced a ton or removed in order to make the class a more consistent sniper counter. The most consistent part of Spy's kit has always been the gun if you know how to use it correctly, it would be great if that extended to being consistently good against razorback snipers hiding next to a sentry gun

@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Note that outside of Spy, most hitscan weapons fall off _very_ quickly pass medium range. Pistols and Shotguns have serious spread. You can do damage quick, but 10 damage a shot barely does anything. Heavy's minigun is powerful, but makes him a sitting duck. Meanwhile Spy has the highest damage hitscan weapon at range outside of sniper. At mid range and with accurate shots, he can fight pretty evenly with anyone using a shotgun.

honestly the only way to dodge snipers in an incredibly open map (and by big I mean pkbigcity type of big) is to pick scout and crouch jump every time you jump or double jump, move your mouse like crazy to move you head and screw with the sniper, use the winger for the extra jump height, straif every time you jump, use the bonk for easy crossing, and all around move unpredictably to force the snipers to body shot you

@@Idk-qx1hu Jumping makes headshots easier actually. Cuz in ground you can flick your movement fast and unpredictable-Smashing your keyboard and pressing every button you have like you playing DDR. While jumping,can make one fake out sure. But experienced Sniper can... Easily predict your land after all your double jumps. So-Jump rarely for a fake out. Move more on the ground and duck. Atleast a chance to...not lose your 18 killstreak :V

@@Life-pq6lz not if you crouch jump and straif at every jump and do delayed double jumps

*bodyshot*, * hit detection*

@@Idk-qx1hu Bur still...you giving to the pro sniper free seconds of prediction. Cuz-Falling is falling,even with straif. He can make a quick flick. But thats true-You can win some shots.

trolldier isnt a class tho

Real

Honestly I fully agree with you, but seeing someone with a Legion profile picture complaining about snipers with New vegas context is HILARIOUS

This is nice change but i still would keep movement speed same

"Giving his rifle 4 shot clips with a hard reload" Jhin, is that you?

@@weplo1597 why

yay someone else who thinks reducing his speed is a good idea. id also nerf his melee damage to 40 & make jarɒte apply a 30% damage vulnrability instead of minicrits

I think bushwaka is actually not a big deal cause it requires melee. In most circumstances you can play around that. Jarate in general is insane tho. Becausd you sacrifice almost nothing for it, but gain a crazy support utility for it

Whiners nerfed the amby into oblivion, lmao. They also nerfed the DR into oblivion. Now the skill ceiling for spy is half of what it used to be. All because valve affirmed the whiners crying about encountering skilled players that know how to make the most of a loadout. I was a spy main back then, 1700 hours playtime on record... Despite people claiming DR spies, or ambassador spies were "OP" i rarely, if ever, lost against them, with other classes, myself... it just takes a bit of knowledge to completely counter spies, but now playing spy feels like sht, and playing against them feels unfair. They were already fking weak, they had no practical application in competitive, and they nerfed them even more. I wasn't surprised that they did that though... The reason random crits exist, is specifically to handhold newbies and cater to their every emotional outburst. And it's this reason why TF2 failed to compete with OW when it released. They ignored long-term, in favour of short-term, they fked up the official application of competitive mode, and that was the final nail in the coffin. That's what robbed the Dev team of their funding. Now we're stuck with this mess, indefinitely.

@@MyouKyuubi old dr spied was way less skilled than the new one tho? I agree with ambi lowering his skill but the old dr was such an unskilled brainless weapon that honestly deserved it’s nerf. You shouldn’t be able to have almost 100% uptime on a weapon that makes u almost impossible to kill.

@@iUseDemFrapz "old dr spied was way less skilled than the new one tho?" No... Just cause they knew where ammo packs were located, and actually picked them up, doesn't make them less skilled. That IS skill... The fact that you werre too much of a noob at the time to go to those ammo packs and hunt them down, THAT IS YOUR LACK OF SKILL REARING ITS HEAD! "You shouldn’t be able to have almost 100% uptime on a weapon that makes u almost impossible to kill." And yet, i never had any problems killing those spies, where YOU apparently did. That means YOU were just dogsht at the game, YOU lacked the strategic skill necessary to figure out where the spy would go to replenish his DR charge, YOU lacked the strategic and tactical skill to understand when said spy is msot likely to NOT have his DR active, etc... That is on YOU. That doesn't make the spy OP, it makes YOU brain-dead and skilless. The DR isn't a skillful tool anymore, because it has NO application in even public servers now... it's fking useless. You feign death ONCE every 30 seconds or something... Thats 30 seconds where the spy WILL die if anybody so much as LOOKS at him funny. So if you encounter a DR spy nowadays, and you struggle against them? That's because YOU are dogsht, not because the spy is skilled, the spy may or may not be skilled, but with a DR they're helpless, mechanics limits how far skill can take you. And your skilless whining removed the mechanics that made skill a factor for survival for spy. That's why spies are underpowered now, because YOU were too mentally lazy to learn how to deal with them properly. So excuse me if i have no interest in hearing what some skilless scrublord has to say about the DR. YOU can shut the fck up!

@@MyouKyuubi ok bro I’m literally 100% certain I am better than you at the game and probably better than you at spy too. The dr was unskilled cuz it’s a get out of jail free card that allows you to compensate for playing poorly. Dr having constant uptime literally meant that old dr spies (especially gun spies) could pretty much never die if they didn’t want to and basically had no risk for going in and doing stupid shit. It allows you to not be punished for making bad plays and that’s inherently unskilled, seems like you were just a bad player who couldn’t pick ur fights and relied on a lame unskilled crutch to compensate for your bad game sense xDD

@@iUseDemFrapz "ok bro I’m literally 100% certain I am better than you at the game and probably better than you at spy too." yeah congrats, you're better than someone who stopped playing the game like. 6 years ago. Congratulations, you win the loser award, you still play a dead game that is dead, for a fking reason. "The dr was unskilled cuz it’s a get out of jail free card" Wrong... it wasn't a get out of jail free card, it was a get out of jail, if you play well card... There's a reason i never struggled with DR spies even when they were at their strongest... Because simply going to the nearest ammo pack isn't always good enough, and you could still be lit on fire back then, so pyroes still had 0 issues dealing with spies. Spies weren't OP, players were just too fking lazy and sucky to learn how to deal with them properly. Spies weren't a "click 1/2 times to kill" target, so they got pissy, and threw a hissy-fit. They're not OP, just because you can't instantly kill them, newbie. They're OP, only if they can RELIABLY SOLO THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM. You don't even know what OP means, because you're just a scrublord. Yes spies were survivable... BECAUSE THEY NEEDED THAT SURVIVABILITY TO BE VIABLE... AT ALL... "that allows you to compensate for playing poorly." You assume that using the DR to get away is "playing poorly", what is your metric of success here? What qualifies as "playing well" to you, exactly? You can't accuse someone of playing poorly without having an idea of what is playing well... So then, what is "playing well", hmm? If your idea of a spy playing well, is camping around with a cloak and dagger, or doing ammo-rounds with a stock invis watch, you're a fking idiot... Those watches do not allow the spy to reliably make a move on enemies, the same way a rockewt launcher allows a soldier to reliably make move on enemies.. Why should all the other classes get to make moves reliably, and not spy? His entire playstyle is risk vs reward, if you allow the spy to get close to begin with, YOU suck, the spy isn't OP just because he can 1-shot you from the back... He's only OP if you can't defend yourself against him, and the DR never prevented that. You're just salty because you sucked too much to actually kill a DR spy back then. That is literally all this is... Entitlement, you feel ENTITLED to getting kills on spies... THAT'S the problem. Even if you didn't kill him, enabling the DR still counts as having dealt with the spy. He still has to go find ammo before he can come back and make another attempt on you, that counts as a respawn timer as far as you're concerned. And if you really want to kill him, you could EASILY find a way to deal with them, by using your head a little bit. Your entire "get out of jail free card" rhetoric only works, if you assume you have a RIGHT to get a kill on spies... Which you don't. Simple as that. "Dr having constant uptime literally meant that old dr spies (especially gun spies) could pretty much never die" You do not have a right to have spies die just to soothe your ego. Nobody cares if spies were immortal, could they solo entire teams reliably? No. So your argument of them being OP, is invalid. The end. The fking end! Do you understand? "and basically had no risk" Wrong, the DR was never that powerful, spies can't backstab with the DR up, that's when you strike them, you read them... Figure out what they're trying to do, which tells you when they're most likely to have the DR down, then you shoot them. if you feel cheated out of a kill because they DR'ed, that's just your entitlement rearing it's head... You do not have a right, to get the kill, you must WORK for it. "doing stupid shit." Welcome to Team Fortress 2, m*r*n. Get over yourself. xD "It allows you to not be punished for making bad plays" As if you're the arbiter of what constitutes "bad plays"... The nerf was implemented to appease the noobs, EVERY nerf in this game was implemented to appease noobs. Because that is the balancing philosophy of Team Fortress 2, you fking idiot. The DR wasn't nerfed because it rewarded bad plays, the DR was nerfed TO REWARD BAD PLAYERS FOR BEING SO BAD AT THE GAME THEY CAN'T FIGURE OUT HWO TO DEAL WITH A DR SPY. Fking wake up newbie. "seems like you were just a bad player" Achieve middle-rank in Highlander competitive, and you can start talking sht about what a good spy player is/does. Until then, you're just a scrublord. You don't know how weak spies are, because you've never actually played the game competitively, and that's the only reason you're spouting this horsesht from your mouth. "who couldn’t pick ur fights and relied on a lame unskilled crutch" Ah yes, bad gamesense is exactly why i could vanish from a players eyes without even using the DR, by circling around him 2 times and rounding a nearby corner, and win 90% of spy-offs, even against multiple spies back in the day. :P You have no idea what you're talking about bro.

Its annoying too. Full charge just one shots anything. Sniper never should've had guns like that.

I mostly agree, but the rng headshots and the stupid hit boxes with this thing is the massive problem I have with it. There isn’t much stopping a sniper from just sitting at a choke point and spamming arrows at the area where most classes heads will be if they pass through.

​@@tophatanimations4729the thing is that it's balanced by being a projectile rather than hitscan like the rifles, and also being better at medium to close range. if the huntsman wasn't so generous with its shots, it'd be extremely infuriating to actually hit them. I think the issue of headshots being so easy to land should definitely be fixed, but I think the way they handle it otherwise (letting it hit as long as it hits the bounding box) is good.

imo the best sniper rework idea ive heard other than removing him is replacing all of the rifles with ghe huntsman

imo spy design is not that great. Thing is, he gets worse with time. If a good spy from now was playing in 2011-12, they would be considered a god in tf2. I do see why spy is still better designed though.

I don't know this video had simple factual errors within 3 minutes even if you ignore the more subjective statements. But its well produced. And well produced videos sadly are assumed to be correct.

no. just simply criticism that you cant do anything against the sniper isnt true

@@cutx1 better designed doesn't mean hes going to be the best class. It's just obvious that Spy is more fair to fight against than Sniper. Sniper is completely one dimensional. Both in terms of fighting against AND playing as.

​@@cutx1also spy was nerfed too hard. Dead ringer not was op after Gun mettle but Jungle inferno killed this weapon constantly. Same to the ambassador. People saying "shpee couldn't be a snipa" but i want another way to deal with sniper when sniper has a pyro bodyguard and 3 sentries near of him.

The freedom to play whichever class you want and still be able to have fun regardless of your team is a carefully made decision by valve and is a key part of why tf2 survived this long. You are not bound to your teammates performing their duties like supports in overwatch to accomplish something. You are free to just get in a server and fuck around however.

@@obliviouscrab3125 amen brother amen

My teams: noob spies stupid engineers Gibus heavy Suicide medics Bad snipers Enemy teams: Pro scouts Pocket medic with black box soldier Main spy Sticky spammer demoman Furry pyro

@@caveiraverde123 and yet as a good player you can still slap fools into oblivion as you are not bound by your team

Forcing players to choose a class in a casual game will just be like the spy doing a backflip with a noose on him. Absolutely no player would want that.

the sticky launcher ramp up nerf deserved to stay but people bitched that the defense weapon couldn’t be used offensively and it got reverted. while heavy was made borderline useless from accuracy and damage ramp up for 2 years.

@@cheese1008 yeah the sticky launcher was pretty obviously built intentionally to be an annoying overpowered piece of shit and I don't really get why valve did that. Not to mention even if you consider only its "intentional" design (sticky traps) it's the literal exact same problem of sniper that is "Oh I walked into a bad area and I had no warning this danger was present here. I am now dead instantly."

See, I don't play on random crit servers so this was my best clip for it but yeah you're right, it's a Kritzkrieg uber. I was hoping nobody would notice but congrats on being the first haha

playing him makes me feel bad & fighting against him kinda ruins the game for me

this was done in a video by shounic, it drastically increased the interaction between snipers and other players, although a problem with it is sniper's ability to deal 150 damage without charging.

@@badideagenerator2315 Easy fix: Make any non-headshots only do 25 damage, and remove the charge-up mechanic. Fixed.

@@MyouKyuubi i'm not sure how nerfing bodyshots has any effect on his ability to quickscope headshot.

@@badideagenerator2315 Reward skill, punish bad playing. of course, to achieve this, we would also remove random crits, it's an abomination that should not exist. Quickscoping isn't the problem, my man, neither are headshots. The problem, is charging up shots, to insta-kill most classes with with bodyshots, or to instakill heavy with a single headshot, it's cheap, it feels crap, and it gives you undeserved kills and undeserved points on the scoreboard. Getting killed with skill, feels great, getting killed with cheap, lazy, gimmicks, does not. It fixes the problem by improving the overall feel and experience of the game. If you think that a skilled sniper, quickscoping a HEADSHOT to instakill a low-health class is a bad thing... You're a anti-skill crybaby noob that should stfu. -Sincerely, a Spy main.

@@MyouKyuubi meh, for me could be a reverse ambassador at close range he can´t do a quick scope on you, if you managed to get close to him, he should rely on he´s smg or melee do deal with you, specially if he is protected by he´s team or its a razorback user

at least with the huntsman, if you get killed by it, you can play pyro and go "check this shit" and hit a sick reflect that gives you +3 street cred

and the only counter-argument i see most of the time is legit something around the lines of *_NO IT DOESN'T YOU'RE LYING_*

Ye I was surprised he didnt include Scout, but oh well, his point got across anyway

So is trolldier a pick class?

@@ret_ard_ kindof, but that's a subclass, not a whole one

Ehhhh, Scout can definitely *pick*, but I'm not sure if it counts since Scout can do more than pick. Spy using his revolver or Sniper with SMG is just kinda mediocre. Their entire design is based around backstabs and headshots. Like, Soldier is normally a generalist with his rockets and banners, but only becomes a "pick" if he goes full trolldier, because he can't do anything else but single target elimination.

@@Appletank8 then what else can scout do other than pick. Im talking about stock btw

hybrid knight can be long range if you are a special kind of wacky instead of launching stickies from a range, launch yourself and ooga booga whoever's annoying you

@@commanderdemonno9819 I used to play hybrid all the time but I use stickies now to be more versatile with the class. I strictly snipe using the grenade launcher I don’t do long distance cringe with the stickies.

which video did he say that in?

Yeah that's a terrible take. Since it's significantly more predictable where traps will be than where snipers can see you from, and it requires you to entirely stop using your stickybomb launcher while the trap is active, so you have to disable the best weapon in the game from your kit. And you have to constantly watch the trap

@@anafu-sankanashi8933 I can’t remember off the top of my head, it may of been a steam highlight, or maybe in his “why sniper isn’t over powered video”

@@htwo1 he is a self admitted sniper main, so it’s lots of “no no guys look sniper isn’t a really easy and strong class, honest!”

@@braedenmclean5304 he doesnt have a why sniper isnt overpowered video, he has a what is exactly wrong with sniper video, where we discusses his problems with the class and some changes that could be implemented. and the only time ive ever seen him complain about sticky traps was in his phlog video, where the whole moment was played of as a joke. also, he says sniper isnt easy since even for seasoned sniper mains like him, consistent and quick headshots are a skill issue. and i dont think he's ever not called sniper strong or down right unfun to fight. he dislikes snipers bushwacka combo, dislikes the bazaar bargain for its game breaking power, finds all the backpack items like danger shield and razorback to be broken in bad ways and made an entire video on why jarate is brainlessly easy to spam and use with little to no risk.

it seems like multiplayer FPS developers don't understand what snipers are. most FPS titles portray them as long-range campers, when actual snipers are more like long-range flankers. they usually have instakill suppression fire which, in some cases, doesn't even require headshots.

@@badideagenerator2315 example?

@@franagustin3094 what do you want an example of?

@@badideagenerator2315 Of an sniper that you said its

@@franagustin3094 ok now i'm even more confused about what you mean

Wouldn't fix the engagement issue, but I would appreciate not being randomly quick scoped whenever I do decide to make the 5 hour commute to go kill an enemy sniper on a class that isn't sniper.

isn't the laser pointer already a thing?

@@Hugonche29 yes but it should be part of every sniper rifle and should be a line that follows the sniper’s line of sight, and not just a dot on a wall that you may or may not be able to see

just make headshots require full charge

@@SnrubSource You can actually already do this, there are guides to movement everywhere on youtube and if you watch them and implement their strategies the sniper can no longer close range headshot you.

It is to an extent, picking a medic or some pub stomper and he'll that satisfying backstab is considered high rrwardt

@@RandomFurry07 I'd argue that with how unbelievably risky and unfair the class to play, even a medic pick is nowhere near the reward he deserves for the mental trauma you will get playing this class.

Instead of instant shooting you, there should be like a bullet traveling mechanic, at lest that will take skill and though, more than aiming a cross the map and deleting a scout just leaving spawn

Quickscopes are the big part of problem though. Sniper range is supposed to be balanced by reduced vision, yet it is not because quickscopes exist. Sniper is supposed to be weak at clos range, yet he is not because quickscopes exist.

@@skipperg4436 His strength at close range is only a problem because he completely dominates at long range. Imagine how hard and shit sniper would be if he had to rely on closer range quickscopes. It's also one of the most difficult parts of sniper is the close range quickscopes.

I once renamed myself “I am the spy” and would sneak up behind people and jarate crit them.

@@TJ-hg6op that's gold! 😂 Man

Ah yes, the choppa subclass

@@fort809 is that what it's called? 😂 Love that name

the classic exists

but the classic controls differently and it's trigger mechanic should be on anything but a sniper.

the same devs that shipped pyro without airblast on release? yeah

@@chocox6491 same devs that shipped engineer without the ability to move buildings and upgrade anything other than a sentry

maybe they thought quick scopes were cool, because not even air shotting soldiers feels good as a close range scout kill never got why people whine so much on sniper. just go destroy the game with being so op if it's so easy as people seem to think

idk why there arent any no sniper community servers yet i feel like theyd be extremely popular

You don't really need to destroy or aim all that well if you keep your eye on the objective, which people have to just stand on, and blast them every few seconds. Compare to spy, if they mess up, they get blasted from 360 degrees. If a sniper misses a long range shot, whoops, they'll get try again in 4 seconds. The only time a sniper is punished for missing is a counter-sniper or not noticing someone run up to them, and the second one can be mitigated if they just squat on a sentry or pyro.

I actually like the hp nerf! If you're going to stay back and take shots from Mt. Everest, it's only fair to be decimated if someone else makes the climb.

, i think would be fair If the Headshot crit was replaced for minicrits or even losing the ability to Headshot when the Sniper is close to someone or way too much Far away, If the Sniper is Bad or insecure He would Take His time, If He is good He would be slighthly near the Battle , giving mire interactivity w the class , He could be killed more easily but one Hit kill would still be a thing, for the dds Just make the afterburn do less dmg and the anti Backstab Just give Sniper Dr If Shooted on the back, It would create a Nice dinâmica between the snipers, shoot and do a 360 to avoid being killed, If you kill you kill with style

Considering Sniper is barely used in comp already your nerfs would make him rarely used even in pubs.

I think giving sniper a visible laser like how mvm sniper works is already a huge nerf for it, sure they may got one or two kill but the laser gonna signal the enemy team to storm the sniper hiding place or forcing them to play high mobility classes such as jumping soldier, demoman, or flanking spy and scout. And also 50% damage reduction on quickscope.

@@stevecarrot visible laser after full charge or 1 second in scope is fine. Dont think they should nerf quickscope considering sniper has literal better options than quickscoping, its just for panic or being cool. Plus that will ruin sniper v sniper fights and be like when Darwins was trash

The devs SAID it's made to break stalemate, and "create those "rare high moment" when a guy go on a 1 man army spree and killing multiple enemy at once". Ever load up a developers commentary map in TF2?

@@45.chuminh81 "Critical hits are one of the features that resulted from our focus on pacing. The Critical hits system attempts to slightly influence the highs and lows of the game by increasing the chance of a Critical hit based on the player's recent performance. In summary, the better you're doing the more likely you'll continue to do well. This helps create those rare high moments where a single player goes on a rampage and gets three or four kills in rapid succession." This is the quote in it's entirety, where are stalemates ever cited?

@@Fosforobl4nco Did you read my comment backwards?

@@maskofthedragon ?sdrawkcab tnemmoc ym daer uoy diD

@@maskofthedragon honestly the original comment is the best summary of what that dev said that I've ever heard. I never really understood what the 'rare high moments' joke meant until I saw that comment

we would need a lot of different tests for that to prove anything we have: average players with average snipers and average players iwth no snipers we need amazing players with average snipers and amazing players with no snipers to prove anything

Good snipers can do well no matter what the map is, you just didn't stick with him long enough to get good enough to be able to dom any map

@@andybogdan4380 yeah I was just about to say this. In casual scout is borderline useless on like over half the maps. I get sniper is limited on some maps but compared to scout it’s not even close.

this is the definition of a band-aid solution

yeah no

huh... that's actually kind of an interesting concept that i haven't seen many people discuss, it actually sounds pretty balanced.

maybe make it apply all the time so its not countered by quickscoping. but that would bring back the ambys ability to counter sniper without being anoying for everyone else

Nah, Sniper used to be heavily countered by Spy, but then they gave him Razorback. I remember even picking Spy often to counter a dangerous Sniper, but now, with Razorback just existing, I don't even think about the idea, cause why bother if he probably will have it equipped.

@@patrykzukowski7471 what? you can just shoot him. it's super easy most of the time, and if you pick your moment, you can put the third shot and he will not even have moved

Their aim is far from the only thing, Their hearing, brain n lack of situational awareness is the thing i see killing most snipers

@@patrykzukowski7471 go dragons fury jet pack pyro to instantly make the sniper not consider any secondary other than the “shield of go fuck yourself v2” Sarcasm aside that is valid criticism expexcaly because NOT ONLY does he have TWO secondary’s that counter the most reliable ways to kill a sniper outside of mirror matchups, he could also just get a pyro butt-buddy to counter both at the same time AND let him use a secondary that is more useful in the general sense Seriously who the hell sincerely thinks sniper is balanced and has counters that just always demolish him and are not situational at all or nullified by the sniper not failing the quick time event of shooting the other dudes head

@@GoodlyData86596 Yeah. I mean I like what he adds to the game, I just don't like his potential and the stupid decisions to add counters to counters that ultimately make the class less interesting to play and play against.

yeah man, you need to go get a checkup, seems like you suffer from some skill issue

100 hp sniper, 150 hp spy, im guessing? 100 hp sniper would at least let godly demos one shot them with a pipe. if notthat, then im curious what the changes are

there's a tf2 inspired game on roblox called "the flappy men" where the sniper class is more or less the same, exept he lacks the ability to charge up shots, his rifle uses projectiles and most classes have more health, meaning he can only 1 shot scouts and other snipers. generally he's less frustrating to deal with than sniper tf2 so long as he's using his default rifle and not one of the broken unlocks. he's also kept in check by the sapper class, who has an "electrorifle" (which is essentially just an assault rifle) which can lay down suppressive fire against snipers.

Yeah, unfortunately the problem with sniper isn't his sniper rifle, it's the fact that a "sniper" class just doesn't interact well (or at all) with the other classes, you can't really fix sniper without him no longer being a, well... sniper.

Honestly, being able to two-shot anyone is still pretty powerful. Doing half of heavies health right now still causes heavy to have to retreat, especially since heavy can't do anything about sniper anyways.

im going to edit this comment many times in order to go through your points and this is comming from a spy main i agree with removing his item counters why can he counter spys and pyros with no downside? the shounic laser wont work imo as most good snipers use quickscopes so the laser will only hinder the non good snipers i heavily disagree with make snipers bullet a projectile and only a few games make oneshot bullets a bullet travel and if it has bullet travel EVERY gun has bullet travel god i would love a buff to spy but jokes aside it wont work as the shield what about other classes say a heavy going against meds or engies shield besides engie already has the short circuit so now he makes everyone have a bad time sniper missing a shot and his gun jamming makes no sense at all and is not "in spirit of the class" he maintains all of his equipment i dont bieleve getting rid of his one shot kill will be a good idea as the only combo sniper is jarate and the crit bitch blade

@@deathbringer9893 Fortnite only has projectile bullets for snipers, and it works pretty well imo, balances them a lot. Apex also has a combination of hitscan and projectile weapons, so some gund have bullet travel and others do not.

A balance idea I had was this: ACTUALLY MAKE SNIPER RELOAD INSTEAD OF HAVING HIS "RELOAD" ANIMATION BE PART OF HIS FIRING ANIMATION. Sniper can *actually* fire way faster than what the video would have you believe since quick-switching is an actual tactic for Sniper. lets you quickscope more often. Great skill to have I'm sure, but it *entirely* breaks the game's balance.

@@MegaGaming11 not anymore if i do the trick of canceling his reload it wont fire right away