yo. its me! hope you devs know that you dont have to take shit from people just because you want a job. you are all worth more than that! ❤

I love the recruiter saying “I am sorry - the posts have already impacted my reputation and business image” when the guy literally threatened to blacklist the client. “But it’s not fair because it’s MY career”

"The bar for socialization in tech is the floor" - Theo

Jordan Zmick from Think Recruiting should not have a business anymore. Worst of the worst

Tech recruiter for Apple threatened to sue me / blacklist me and proceeded to pass the phone around his office and have all of his colleagues shout at me for turning down an offer from Apple. They then told Apple I pulled out because my uncle had died. I only found this information out when the guy who I'd interviewed at Apple reached out to me to give his condolences for the passing of my uncle and ask if when I had grieved, I'd like to be recruited directly by them. My uncle had not died. I came away very impressed with Apple and very unimpressed with English tech recruiters.

I have a different take. I don't think the problem here was communication. I think the problem here is that the person is an asshole. Communication skills would have enabled him to send a passive aggressive email that sounded professional enough that Ahmad wouldn't have been able to complain about it on Twitter but would have still felt insulted. I've seen that in so many layoff posts, or statements made by politicians, that are outright insulting but cushioned in words that are acceptable in polite society. When assholes learn communication skills, they become more of a threat 😅

I've had similar experience too. It was awful! I had 10 years of experience in a field I was working previously and went to interview for a job. After the interview ended the HR asked me what is the range of the salary I expect and I told her. The amount wasn't nothing special maybe like 750 euro per month. She replied - "You don't have what to give us for this amount of money and I was shocked. With 10 years of experience in 2 big companies in this field and she acted like that it was insane!

This is 100% believable. When I first started in software I had a recruiter sending me to multiple roles that had nothing to do with software dev and I naively went to the interviews. One of the jobs asked me why I didn't wear a suit and the recruiter thought it was reasonable to give me shit for that too. This role was also 2 hours from home by train when I live closer to central London. I discontinued my relationship with this person and they tried gas lighting me about my abilities. On multiple occasions I've had recruiters downplay my earning ability (which I ended up achieving by quite a bit). They're also super pushy I feel like. Even when I say I'm passively looking.

for history, primegen was 30 minutes earlier with this video

By the way idk if you saw it in chat after but Ramadan doesn't mean he didn't eat for days, but for hours. It's no eating/drinking from sunrise to sunset

This also happened to me, this person told me: "You will never thrive in a professional environment due to your lack of technical abilities and your attitude towards it" and he was right... I'm a co-founder and a CTO at the moment. I still suck at code, but it seems that people around me trust my attitude towards problems, my ability, creativity, and unique approach towards solving them. I guess you can get better at coding by learning from the errors on the terminal. I hope they get better, kinder, more patient human beings by learning from their mistakes as well.

Just for clarification, Ramadan as a whole lasts 29-30 days (depends on the moon sighting), Muslims fast every day consecutively from sunrise to sunset. You can have meals/drinks before sunrise, and after sunset. The meal/drinks consumed before sunrise is called Suhoor/Sehr and the meal consumed during sunset is called Iftar usually whilst the "Adhan" (Muslim's call to prayer) is calling. Feel free to correct me. Thank you Theo for covering this, and I'm sorry you had to go through this, Ahmad. And I hope no one has to ever go through this.

That is NOT an apology. That is an EXCUSE. An Apology is "I am sorry, I did X, and I understand how X and my actions/words hurt you and explain how, and then explain what you are going to do NOT do X again". This shows you understand WHAT you did, WHY it hurts/injures someone and HOW you are going to change your behavior in the future.

I once had a recruiter that was this disasterously ignorant, and tried to gaslight me that I didn't know the technology I was working with for 12+ years, after trying to recruit me for a position that had nothing to do with the technology stack I had worked with for YEARS. It was mindbogglingly shocking to see. That recruiter was wildly dense. I can't imagine they were successful at that job. Thank you for sharing horror stories like this. I thought I was the only one.

My college specifically had a "interpersonal development" course ENTIRELY because communication is so poor in the engineering world.

"but i got the flu" how many times did u "get the flu" on the people lol

work in a team in a big tech MNC, the only permanent staff are the product owner and analyst. The tech staff are all on contract. So sad what software engineering has become.

Ahmad truly dogged a bullet there. From my own experience, companies who hire people like this recruiter are either ignorant at best or have even more toxic leadership at worst.

4:40 As someone who regularly schedules meetings across 3+ time zones and given some switched to summer time over the last month, you need to switch calendar invites to UTC+0 and tell them to check the time in their calendar again if you want people to actually be there. Everything else is probably going to fail at some point.

You're easily quickly becoming one of my favourite tech channels :)

The perfect recruiter is simultaneously a filter for the hiring org, and a babysitter/ego-propper-upper for the candidates. I fail to see how an "impulsive" person can be that. Confusing "excuses and begging" for "an apology" is not a real good sign either. An apology does not contain excuses, and does not contain requests to cover up the story. I would be more harsh than you, in the assessment of engineers. We are not only shitty communicators, spellers, social connectors. We are very often needy, with ego-problems and boundary problems and time management problems. When I set up impromptu meetings with fellow engineers, I say "at 12:40 your time, ninety minutes from now, right?". I hate time zones, but many of us have a watch or a phone, and can say "two hours earlier than now, tomorrow, at 3pm your time?". The intellectual laziness of not checking your client's time zone is expected of engineers, not of organizers.

Honestly, a professional communication in ANY medium ending with "?!?" was already a red flag.

The first 2 sentences of the first response are absolutely unacceptable.

Theo, I want to thank you for this video. You standing up as avidly as you are here puts a smile on my face. While I haven't met a recruiter like this, I've had to deal with people like this guy more than I'd like to. You have no idea how grateful I am seeing people like you standing up in moments like these. These people ruin lives. A single moment with a recruiter like this sucks, but the people that have to work and live with them, or dare I say are exploited by them, sometimes live with that experience haunting them for a lifetime.

That's why if I specify time, I always do it in UTC and append UTC. This way it's always clear.

What kind of idiot schedules an event and doesn't send an invite to make sure we're all on the same page about the time? Some places recognize daylight savings and some don't, so even if somebody told you they were in Mountain Time, there is still the ambiguity of whether they are in MST or MDT because not all places recognize daylight savings or have it take effect on the same day of the year.

"I am sorry, I am sick with the flu" sounds like a variation on the classic "blame the Ambien" response.

This dude is probably an external agency recruiter. They are basically sales people who rely on their reputation with their clients to provide viable product(SWEs). Seems like he's not doing too well at it and taking it out on the product.

This was a great video, I saw some references to this but in here really great all the context and advices. And yeah, this person should not be working as a recruiter. BTW, this can get much worse if you're outside the US, is a crazy world out there

Theo is nearly 75% through his transformation into Robert Patrick in the Double Dragon movie.

just the fact that he decided to bring up his college exp into it as if somehow people who finish college never make scheduling mistakes (which our dev guy didn't do anyways) just shows that he was looking to offend and humiliate instead of honestly resolving the timing issue. let him get cooked. action have consequences.

This is by far the most practical advice I take from this channel. I have barely missed a video in 18 months.

How to Win Friends and INfluence people should be recommending along with every course. i was getting 9s and got a 5/5 on ap lang and had articles published, but i was still an aspie. being a good writer isn't even the same at understanding how to communicate personably. that book and FC'ing on eve online taught me more than writing ever did.

As a developer, I find recruiters to be flaky and inconsiderate in general. In the reverse, I think and feel these things, but I have the restraint to keep it to myself.

It's not about communication or he do not wan to work with him anymore but the fact he wanted to end his career for simple misunderstanding is narcissism at peak

Such things happen and it is real. I still remember a senior dev told me when I was in initial phase of my very first job " I knew nothing and they should have better screening process" just because I didn't knew how to use vi editor. I am still not an expert at it but it has been more than 3 years now and I am doing just fine. People are always going to be rude and harsh.

I had a similar thing happened to me, interview sent invite link/mail to google meets meeting, she wrote 2.30 pm but email title, calendar and everything else said 5.30 do to different time zones 3 hours difference. I gave confirmation for 5.30 time via gmail shortcut. When time for interview came she gave a lot of shit, like "so you don't know how to open and read email" and so on. Interview was about developing AI, and when i mentioned open source alternatives to GPT4 she said; why don't you use "gpt API it's free" needles to say she didn't really know much about the AI or HR :D

Having the time in text helps. I didn't realize when the calendar feature was added that the email client changes it based on the set time zone in the email client. For example in thunderbird you have to go to settings -> calendar and set the time zone.

The problem with recruiters , hiring managers and companies fronts , is they know that they have the power , just due to the oversaturation of the industry and needs of applicants for a job. When people know they have power ,at least 10% of them will abuse it , especially when they are incentivized by money to speed up a process , without oversite on how they achieve their goal of getting and managing applicants . Getting into a job in the dev industry has become an extremely toxic experience , especially for newbies and juniors just entering into the business world . 15 years ago it was actually pleasurable to interview , now its 4 interviews with the same company tests and interrogations and tons dont even come back to you after they say they will get back to you and youve been through there excruciating process being whittled down to one of the final picks .

The worse thing a recruiter said to me was 'if you're getting paid only this amount, you can't tell the employer you're expecting this amount' Who are you to decide that? On the other hand I've had other recruiters tell me 'It seems you are underpaid, I'll put your expected amount as your current salary and put a higher amount as your expected salary'. They know their job

1:37 That paragraph alone just reeks of narcissism. Reproachful, judgmental, condescending, and, ironically, accusing _others_ of narcissism. So your conclusion at 2:05 is absolutely on point.

That guy is the reason why bulling exists, if you can't have your ego controlled, the rest will do it for you

Sorry for the potential annoying question, but - what is that browser? what was that thingy like "spotlight" of mac, but in browser to open tab?

When rent is due, recruiters (and recruits) can easily tilt into rage mode. Notice its near the first of the month. This is normal behavior when the recruiters are less intelligent than the recruits. That outward anger spurt doesn't happen all the time, but you do get blacklisted if a recruiter feels abandoned; they get paid based on recruits. P.S. I still and only use recruiting websites, just to frequency chart the popular skills that the job market wants. I use it for tracking stocks; I hope I didn't burst my own bubble.

There must something about recruiting in Chicago. I had one recruiter essentially try to berate my skills to interview for a position with lower pay than I currently make in a role with more responsibility.

I have total sympathy for screwing up time zones. Such a pain to work with, especially with those that don’t have much experience collaborating cross time zone

As someone who has conducted interviews at both a startup and a large tech company, the idea that this recruiter could actually affect hiring decisions across the industry is just so laughable to me

"These posts have already impacted my business and image." is not something you include in an apology for what you've done. He's realizing there were consequences for his actions this time, and he's trying to apologize to escape them.

Got to add the fact that time zones just changed as well. It threw my whole team off. Multiple people missed stand up since we’re all in different timezones 🤷

@Theo fair warning, in the dark mode is the best site, the 6th (?) message under the "mohamed amine ayadi" message, is cursing in Hungarian...

Worst thing is that this P.O.S. is the owner of the company. Not just some random bad hire, but the actual face of the company.

Lol, he contacted me, too. So happy it didn’t go further

I think it's good that everyone has been bringing light to that disgusting behaviour from the stupid recruiter.

Life happens. If you can't understand this in any capacity, recruiter or manager, or whatever. Further, there is really no reason to lash out at another adult like this over something as small and insignificant as this!! I mean, you'd honestly think from the tone of this that someone died due to negligence.

It reminded me of a story when I conducted several technical interviews in a row with hell of a diarrhea. Thanks god in our company nobody cares about turned on camera and microphone. Every my turn was like: I turn on the mic, I ask guy some technical questions, I turn off the mic and continue to shit violently. So flu is not excuse for such behavior. Professional can find a way to do their work good in any condition.

2:42 He fixed innapropriate _English_ messages in an hour The 6th comment means something very nuce in Hungarian :)

It's messages like this that have made me appreciate going outside and touching grass.

I love…LOVE your channel.

Thats why I did a toastmasters course, not to learn how to give large speeches but instead to learn how to not be uncomfortable when talking and also how to learn how to properly listen to other when they talk.

"I am sorry I got caught"

I agree he was way out of line in both the coms with Ahmad and the "apology". Deserves the outing and I applaud you for it

I was like 45 mins late to my interview because it was my first time dealing with someone in a different time zone. Thankfully it was just a phone screening and I ended up getting the job. The people I work most closely with are eastern so I just do all my thinking in eastern time. Lol

Any advanced project ideas to learn and understand all advance concepts of next.Js?

I shudder to think , what would have happened if it was me or other developer with little to no , social media platform presence.

Does anyone know how I can contact a good recruiter? I am an unemployed software architect who has dealt with some serious tragedy since covid. Now I can't get any work whatsoever. No one is interested in even interviewing me. I'm looking for data entry work now.

Now we just need to expose Recruiters that are ghosting people too

Im not shocked by this at all. There has been a few hiring managers that give off mediocre vibes and demand respect when not deserved

Why did the text messages change format? iMessage then ? Android or other ?

6:41 I love how the recruiters first attempt at an apology boils down to "Yo, I'm sick and drugged up. Decided to work in that condition. Now my fucking around has been found out. Please delete the evidence of my general shittiness" . . . sends message, reads message after sending, can't quite put his finger on what's missing, notices the glaring omission . . . "I'm also sorry". What an absolute clown.

2024 tech recruitment is already brutal and its people like these who makes us the devs even more hopeless, not everyone will have a platform to be visible, not everyone has the confidence to raise the voice, here in India the situation is so bad people won't say a word and die inside thinking it was their mistake. Never give up. P.S. I just realised how bad I am at communication while writing this comment, took me around 10 minutes to type out my exact thoughts

Went through a recruiter once for a job. Once was enough for me. Not worth it as they don't really do much of anything for you, but want to take a substantial cut of your pay. Better to go straight to the company in my opinion.

Blocked Jordan right now from my LinkedIn account. Thanks for mentioning this.

Tech recruiters all feel and think this way btw. Some are just bad at hiding it.

At the end, the recruiter wouldn’t take responsibility for his own actions

I would have been more comfortable if there wasn't such unilateral dismissal for the possibility that someone may experience a severe crisis or episode that causes them to act like this, which certainly shouldn't be worth ruining someone's career over. That said the recruiter did reveal himself to incompetent and unfit for the job when he asked for the posts to be taken down, so I think it is justifiable to expose them publicly. I would just appreciate some acknowledgement that an impulse may indeed manifest as something more hurtful and elaborate than a "fuck you".

"I am sorry" is more than enough. NObody apologizes these days. No need to explain. As someone who means what they say, when someone says they are sorry, it is easy to accept that. If it becomes a regular pattern, then maybe it needs attention or explanation. But other than that, it's okay to save everyone time by moving on with some rewarding activity.

great take Theo . well done

It's important to keep in mind that an apology is about you, not the person you hurt - you're asking them for forgiveness, so first you need to give them something. If you want to really apologize, here are the elements: Acknowledge what you did and state your understanding of how it harmed the other person. Explain why you know it was wrong. Lay out why you think you did the thing WITHOUT SOUNDING LIKE YOU'RE OFFERING AN EXCUSE. To avoid sounding like you're giving an excuse, lay out the steps you will take in the future to make sure you don't repeat the behavior. This makes it clear that you know your behavior is at all times your responsibility, 100%. Finally, offer your help making things right if there is a way to do it - come up with an idea to help yourself, and state that you're open to other remedies if the other person has anything in mind. With all of this said, then you can ask for forgiveness.

Lawyers be salivating seeing this

great video theo

Take a drink every time you hear "fuck".

I would say that the communication classes should happen earlier in the school life and be mandatory for all students that don't have a language or learning disability that would make it impractical for them. (There are mental conditions that just straight up make communication difficult. It would be nice if there were companion courses tailored to those conditions for people with it to take and sections in the regular communication classes tailored to how to communicate with individuals with certain conditions. I.E. limit long-winded story telling when communicating important details to someone with ADHD, avoid indirect language when communicating with someone who has autism, etc. So many miscommunications occur every day just based around these differences). Additional points for how to identify regional idioms that may not transfer well to other regions, empathetic communication skills that attempt to communicate instructions from the perspective of someone with the domain knowledge of the target audience, etc. Bonus bonus points if we also cover non-professional communication standards to help avoid misunderstandings even in personal lives (less misunderstandings means less misery, arguments and possibly even violence). These skills are very important in the professional world, and are infinitely transferrable.

Shaming is an ugly and immoral thing. He wrote an insulting message, write him back. Don't cancel Him.

Luckily in the UK, you aren't allowed to give negative references to other employers. The USA is a strange place...

Saw this happen in real time! Bonkers

I don't even talk to recruiters lol, I only talk to companies directly.

Engineers don't need communication classes. We need to talk to people more. We need to understand why we build stuff by listening to the people who need it instead of just trying to grab data structures out of their sentences.

If I was Ahmed, I would have forwarded that to the client too, so they know who they have representing them. Although thankfully, I’m sure they saw.

"Wrote whole paper in 7 hours" -perfect score. ADHD. 😆

3:08 are those failed xss attacks?

IMPO, we should shame this type of behaviour. Our business domain (the engineering domain specifically) is a professional one, where we work with all types of people, which forces us to be patient and act respectfully to one another, otherwise how are we different from monkeys who just happened to build the Internet? As said many people bring many types of personalities, traits, and behaviours, so why should we go out of our way for the simple reason of bringing harm? Imagine is that you were in Ahmad’s place and someone gave you this crap, that’s not corporatism, it’s plain lack of discipline and basic emphatic interactions, people like this should not work as “HR” or “Recruiter”, roles where soft skills are the baseline. Support for every person, not just devs, that went through this.

“I’ll make sure other recruiters know about you” … “can you take the posts down? Nobody wants me to recruit for them anymore”

I can't imagine this recruiter going on meets with people from around the world xD

I didn't do honors English but last time I checked 'communication' has the same root as 'commute' meaning to go back and forth. It seems rather strange to me that engineers need to communicate better with normies yet normies won't put in any effort to communicate with engineers because they're 'not technical'. That's not much of a back-and-forth in my book.

Glad this person got outed for their behavior.

"Ahmad" the way you say it ((:

I made it into Theo's chat! 😂 Couldn't be a better video to be in. 🤙

Wait, can a recruiter destroy your future? how?

I do feel somewhat sorry for people who react with this amount of sudden anger. There must be some traumatic experiences from childhood or life in general that causes someone to behave like this imo. But, jobs are based on competency. This guy should not be in a line of work where he is expected to connect people.

If someone would talk like this to me I won't ever bother with them. Just tell them something like: "You crazy man, thanks for helping me dogge a bulet by working with someone like you. Bye"