I wish I had a reference for this, and I am paraphrasing, but I read an anthropologists account of studying eskimos, and he saw an eskimo using a ski-mobile to hunt for seals. He asked the eskimo - 'are you worried that using modern technology will erode your culture and traditional ways?' The eskimo responded 'it normally takes all day to hunt one seal, it takes an hour or so to hunt one with a snowmobile. If you want to spend all day freezing your ass off, go ahead.'

“In ancient times, men built wonders, laid claim to the stars and sought to better themselves for the good of all. But we are much wiser now” -unknown mechanicus tech priest

I think "future-primitivism" would be like modern "homesteading" is today. Using select modern technology to make living a "simple life" easier.

It's always great how you examine all facets of issues without discounting them because of personal prejudices.

I now need video of IA interviewing a member of Amish Community about terraforming and O'Neil cylinders

Ordo Mechanicum approved. Machine God blessing granted. Eldar Exodites nod in agreement.

Survival games are pretty common. In a post scarcity society, people might move to terraformed balls of rock just to challenge themselves. Especially if they can go back to the post scarcity life whenever they want for as much support as they desire.

I remember a photo taken at grand central station in the 1950's of a row of men waiting to board a commuter train all reading the morning paper. Compared to a picture taken recently in the same spot of a row of commuters using their mobile phones. Changing technology dosent mean a change in human behavior.

I'm inclined to believe that the reason KZfaq recommends those videos to me so late is that even the KZfaq algorithm needs time to adjust and comprehend the awesomeness of Issac Arthur. Although I haven't watched the video yet, your previous episodes are more than enough proof that you can consistently achieve a state of success and entertainment while still keeping the videos informative.

I don't know if this is techno-phobic, but to use myself as an example: I find that injecting technology into everything to max isn't always helpful. For instance, I wear a very advanced watch, that is solar powered, and digital, but not a smart watch. This is so that I know the time, but don't need my phone on me. I find modern smart phones/watches too easily cause distraction, and are also fragile and expensive - and require a lot of attention in keeping them charged. I also find that others perceive it more rude to check your phone than to glance at a watch. So I'm supplanting very high techonology (smart watch/phone) with high technology (solar powered digital watch) that does only one job. So I could see a future where high tech doesn't look the way we might expect. If our more enlightened future selves realize that constant stimulation isn't a good thing (our current science already tells us this), we could be surrounded by tech, super advanced technology, but it's hidden away in everyday objects doing it's job and just staying out of our way. We would still live in the lap of luxury, but you wouldn't necessarily be interacting with an oversized screen on every item in the house. Then again, given how easily we humans are taken in by instant gratification, I could also see technology being the gateway to our own collapse. Not a collapse back to pre-industrial, but some sort of reset brought on by an imbalance in the number of people needed to keep the system running vs the number of people actually willing to do so.

I can not be the only one who would loooooooove to hear an interview/conversation between Isaac Arthur and a menonite, taking about terra-forming, O'Neal Cylindors, AI and space travel. That would be a fantastically entertaining bonus episode!!

An example would be the Neo Catholics from the show Altered Carbon. The main thing in that series is a computer chip called a “stack” which every human is outfitted with. The Stack contains all the memories and everything that makes a persons mind. So if your body dies you can live again if your Stack is implanted in a new body. The Neo Catholics rejected the idea of living forever that way so they have their stacks modified so that if their body dies the stack does as well.

Using a notebook and writing on actual paper is fine but please don't use paperclips. Just to be on the safe side you know.

12:23: Looking forward to hearing about pets. I say dragon engineering get's it own (mini) episode.

This technological terror means nothing compared to the power of the Force.

Imperium of man: allow us to introduce ourselves

The Methuselian Luddites of Mars with their discmans and baggy jeans

One of my cat's is very old and has a tumor on her palette that will eventually kill her. I'd been thinking recently about the idea of our pets living for centuries alongside us and what that might mean, glad to see you've got that covered :)

The 1999ians. A group of people dedicated to the use of tech available only up to 12/31/99. DVD but no blue ray.. Internet yes but only on dial up..

Oh I totally forgot it's Arthurs day, was going to bed but got the notification and my eyes popped open. Sleep delayed by 30 minutes then!

Future of Pets? You had my curiosity, now you have my attention

In my opinion a very advance civilization, while having most goods and services produced by robots, would value immensely anything made by hand. I imagine that a lot of lower class working people might be self employed producing small amounts of very expensive novelty goods. The same goes for anybody else. You might be a member of post scarcity civilization, who says you couldn't define your existence by growing your own food, or hunting with bow and spear. Especially if farmlands were no longer needed for mass production of food.

Me: "I don't know how Isaac could top this video" Isaac Arthur: "Hold my drink and a snack"

I've lived in the Arcosanti project, and two other ecovillages, and I've taught over a hundred classes on sustainable design, and a dozen professional scale projects. My theory on this topic is: It is not about regressing for ideological purposes, it is about figuring out what things are actually most efficient at what scales. From my experiences, and knowledge set, as I see it as being on the flintstones and one of the Jetsons at the same time.

Hopefully that short plug will bring new viewers to sfdebris.

Ok, after hearing your empathy for the labor concerns, and historical awareness of them, now really want to watch a video of your explanations of the future crises of Capitalism, and potential diversities of socialism that might be applied to address the concerns of Capitalism, both pre & post scarcity.

One part of this topic I think you missed is the idea that manual toggles for things are generally more robust then refined buttons and digital interfaces. Electromagnetic pulses aren't likely to disable a giant toggle switch but could easily fry a keyboard.

Another great episode. Thanks to everyone involved for all the hard work.

Technology and Sciences behind it are neither Good nor Bad, it is those that use it. The oft quoted WW2 German scientist's feeling, "It worked beautifully, it just landed on the wrong planet."

Techno Primitvism...new idea to me. Thanks.

Man...you are always so thorough. This is still easily my favorite thing on the internet!

Always look forward to Thursday. Thank you sir!

Oh this is a new one! I recently found the channel and have been hopping around recommended next videos of yours, but found a new one this time. :)

next do sexy aliens by popular demand you doing giant robots and power armor. if you see all the likes i got in all my comments asking for sexy aliens you will know that an episode about sexy aliens is popular demand.

Civilizations don't need to be primitive in order to spend their days larping a primitive lifestyle. Being primitive and thus forced to live a primitive existence is a tragedy. Larping a primitive lifestyle is fun because you can stop anytime you want, hop in your a/c car and go grab dinner and a movie. ~"when you make a machine to do the work of a man, you take something away from the man" Yes, his ability to make money doing that work. Normal people don't work to give their life meaning, they work in return for money so they can buy the things they need and want.

Happy Arthur's Day everybody!

The "unnatural" argument is a flawed one because we aren't the only animals that use tools are build things. If a human house is "not natural" then what about a bird's nest, bee hive, beaver dam, and etc? After all how can something that is natural make something that is not natural? It's all just an arbitrary line.

"natural is better" is said without the understanding that asbestos, radon , lead, mercury &many other things, are all natural & these substances plagued previous societies that incorporated them into their infrastructure & amenities for all their more preferable qualities (which are great if not for all the mayhem they do to organic life-forms.) In reality, sometimes synthetic is better. Also, I've really never had a job for more than a week, that I didn't want to completely automate, even the jobs I've spent a long time doing. I just don't want to be homeless and starving because those jobs are automated. I figure there are people going around replacing the computer and printer parts, something I could do, and that will be someone going around replacing the cogs and pistons and servos on all the robots. In reality, I could get a pay bump if my current employer replaced the jobs I'm doing. If the sales job I was doing was a hologram, and the material moving job I was doing was robotic, and I was just keeping that tech to spec and on task as an administrator, or trustee, or foreman, I probably could work less and get paid more, so long as all the tech didn't run off all the customers. It's funny, some jobs have already become techno-primitive. There are certain situations where I was making 8 or 9 dollars an hour, and thought to myself, that those doing a similar job a couple of centuries ago would have at least had a mule or other beast of burden, on top of a many hands make light work approach, and instead, in certain situations, I was it because the employer didn't have power equipment, or beasts of burden, fucking heave ho, which is practically Neolithic effort. Sometimes modern economics & corporate administration & what appears to be stratified competencies in the labor pool creates totally bizarre situations. It's more like Fallout's Vault program than anything else, some of us are getting early access to all the most advanced technologies, and others of us are having to do things without simple rigging practices (rope & pulley), or the benefit of animal husbandry. And if someone gets stuck in a job as backward as that, it's no wonder they think a primitive homestead, or a hunting cabin, or rural farm, is a step up... Of course, if they start milking cows or turning mules into plows they may get kicked in the gut and killed, or struggle with all the other things that lifestyle entails that my tenant farming ancestors told me about, not the least of which is getting increasingly disconnected from the modern economy, in a situation where inflation of fiat currencies isn't exactly ever going to go away, and where rich developers can just wait around for you to fall behind on taxes to get all the bargain basement land you purchased at even lower price than you. (Assuming you're not just squatting on someone else's land, and that has all kinds of other pitfalls & dangers associated with it.) The difference between me and a lot of cats going regressive is that I know the past wasn't all that great. Shit, loosers in this economy hang out at gas-stations just wasting their lives away looking for their next fix with (more often than not) reasonable access to clothing, shelter, food, if they get sick none of us know how they or the government are going to pay for it. Meanwhile, losers in the previous economies always ended up in an early grave because of the brutality of nature or someone else, but if they got kicked by a mule, someone would send for a doctor & he'd show up like a pizza-boy, and 1 times out of 4 he'd practice some form of complete quackery. We got some real knots to untie in our current circumstances, but that doesn't mean we should think the past did it better. There's always trade-offs when humanity changes up the game.

Awesome as always, Isaac,... I'm currently listening to every single release via Soundcloud Podcasts, I'll also be listening to this one again, very soon. Thanks, again.

You sir are fockin class. So much of your writing is brilliantly sharp and witty.

EPISODE SUGGESTION: Speculative evolution. I know pets will be tackled, but what about plants and animals (or even primitive humans) left in the wild (for a given value of wild)? Imagine this: An environmentalist group sees that there is a lack of will to protect nature as they see it. They opt for a practical solution and decide to send bits of nature into space where urban sprawl won't touch it. Unlike in the movie Silent Running, these guys decide to go big, O'Neil cylinder big. Either through a lack of perpetual funding or a reluctance to interfere with the new nature that they created, the animals will drift genetically. How would plants and animals evolve to take advantage of this new ecosystem? (This experiment could be considered for any other world, including a terraformed planet, such as Mars, or even the urban jungles of future Earth.)

>got excited that he was gonna talk archeofuturism. >looked at title again. >nuts.

Seeing your notebook full of SFIA notes was oddly one of the best parts of this episode. But the rest was awesome too!

Excellent point about high-tech giving you more choice about what technology not to use. IIRC, the Nox the team encounters are more-or-less on an extended vacation/camping trip. Society wise, they had basically the ultimate cloaking technology, so they could choose to forgo weapons and such. They also had Clarketech levels of medical and other tech (as well as very long lives), so going to live in a hut in the woods for a few year or decades is recreation/education.

PRAISE THE OMNISSIAH! PERFORM THE THE HOLY RITUAL OF KEEPING THE LIGHTS ON!

I find it incredibly hard to believe that anyone can look around at the state of society today and see the trajectory the world is on and still think we’re headed for some technological utopia rather than the nightmarish dystopia that’s virtually inevitable at this point

Being someone who is surrounded by Amish in Lancaster County Pennsylvania. I would surmise that there isn't anything against being moved to another planet by someone else for the Amish, at least the Amish around where I live. I'll ask a few and update my response. My current reasoning is as follows 1. Many Amish who do non farming jobs, such as building houses, renovations, installations of equipment and more get to their job site by means of riding in a pickup truck that takes them and their gear to the job site. They don't own nor drive the truck, rather a non Amish person does that. It's actually away alot of nom Amish people make money here, hauling Amish people around. These modern vehicles are highly advanced with all the computers and engineering that goes into them... Because of this, I could see them viewing riding a space ship to another world, as akin to being driven around by someone in a pickup truck. 2. For work and on their farms they use various off grid technologies, such as solar panels with a car battery and inverter to power electric fences, generators, powered fans and electric power tools. Because of this, I could easily see them being willing to use technology that would be required to keep them alive on a new world, a space suit or atmospheric containing dome. Now to be clear, Amish are not homogenous, and further north from me is a sect(s) of Amish far stricter then the Amish around where I live. So they may be less prone to this.

Morning dude! Can’t wait to see this one.

If there is a lack of struggle and challange, we can simply create those ourselves.

I noticed that when you talked about still preferring traditional pen and paper for writing down ideas, you were using a ballpoint pen, rather than a fountain pen. I think this actually shows an interesting point in this topic. The ballpoint pen is a more advanced technology than the older fountain pen. The ballpoint was designed to address the issue of leakage with fountain pens. Instead of delivering the ink through capillary action, a tiny ball applies fresh ink as it rolls, and acts as a seal when not in use. However, this design came with a compromise with the feel of the pen in use. Is the more advanced ballpoint "better" than the traditional fountain pen? Maybe. That depends largely on how you prioritize their differences. Is the feel of the pen worth the occasional leak? Is the limited selection of inks worth not refilling from a bottle? Some will prioritize the advantages of the older technology over the advantages of the newer technology.

So well thought out!

I was waiting for a subject like this, thanks!

Watching this, and then ClarkeTech (magic tech) right after. What a perfect combo.

Olden Day Skills One thing learned from the Prepper movement is that old superseded skills can be forgotten. A far more dangerous problem. When I think of this I recall The Hitchhikers Guide (Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B) telephone sanitisers, account executives and hairdressers

Great way to start my Thursday, Thanks!

Isaac Arthur's videos are the only videos where I hit the like button before I've even watched it.

Techno Primitivism is my new DJ name haha.

ISAAC!!! I'm Soo glad I'm not the only one who still takes hand written notes. Great upload once again, I really can't tell you how much I'm enjoying your channel, suffice to say that I AM

Great episode. It is interesting to think of how increasing lifespans (and thus increased preference for the familiar) and improving technology will mesh.

I love this channel so much! Amish, Mennonites and Zapp Brannigan evoked in the same science video? I'm subscribed now.

I will point out that we do have examples of the guy living in the cabin in the woods who *does* hate civilization. The Unabomber comes to mind.

The video should be near silent with technology/nature sounds and the subtitles explain everything :)

*I'm really really really really excited for the power armor episode .* *Make it long and detailed .*

I was scrolling too...had to restart the video after 3 mins in. Can't miss any of the talking points. Love this guy👍

*Sees title* Ooh, Adeptus Mechanicus scenario?

Techno-primitivism will likely be popular only until their health fails. Or the health of a loved one. At this point technology will be real popular.

"just because we can, doesn't mean we should." I think that is the core value of such mindsets, and honestly, I can agree with that. capitalist markets create artificial wants they then can fulfil, thats what Ads are. being able to Say NO is an important skill, especially in our era of excess.

I remember reading a sci-fi novel years ago about a monarchist space empire that had some technolgy, like spaceships, space elevators, and a nuclear powered train, but otherwise is like living in victorian times!

One of the things i'm planning on including in a game I'm making: different ideologies, including primitives, will settle their own systems. Primitives will generally hire an uploaded mind or full AI to haul them in cryosleep to that system, terraform or paraterraform an area for them, and leave them there with nothing more than basic infrastructure.

A N A R C H O P R I M I T I V I S M

Really enjoyed this video. It even seemed liked the quality of the narration was better. Anyway good work.

Very interesting presentation. Love to see more of these videos.

Low tech solutions to high tech problems is sometimes a great thing. But I can understand where you're coming from.

Primitivism is all well and good... till you or your loved ones get sick.

I love the casual mentions of Zap Branagan and curbsromping in an otherwise very intellectual video.

one thing not covered about the "hard work builds better humans" line of thought is with enough tech you could probably artificially create or influence whatever "better human" traits you want even if you discount fully or mostly computerized people.

He declares this channel tech heresy.

Watching this at 2am at night on my phone. Loving technology using my primitive ape emotions

Happy Arthursday!

i loved the nox and I had never considered your take on them before, bravo!

The physical therapy I need/ed to recover from a major illness has led me to an active physical lifestyle that has many people I know shaking their heads in wonder. But I still value modern technology, and want to remain part of the 21st Century. There are indeed plenty of character building challenges and lots of hard work to do, even if one owns a PC and a smartphone.

The problems with automation is due to problems with capitaism

issac Arthur, I love and appreciate you

Can’t wait for the power armor episode! I’m currently writing a book that includes them

Ted Kaczynski has some good points about the dangers of technology. The hardships of a more primitive lifestyle is part of what makes life better.

Issac-sempai, make a video on fermi about caijus and giant mechs, in a comedy tone would be great, i think u can even patch that to a random saturday video

First video I have seen of yours.. Very interesting content.. And accent

Thank you, great video.

I am suddenly called back to storing energy by millions of gears turning in space, because there’s no air friction to stop them.

Future solution: Imagine that star trek village, clean and prosperous, yet low seemingly low tech and natural. But imagine that as you look closely, you see tiny semblence of power sockets tucked away from plain sight (power tools are used only in emergencies). The well in the village looks medieval, but has a water filtration/purification system.The houses appear to be made of wood, but the walls are lined with non-flammable, thermally insulated material (in case the winter is too tough). The people seem to only wear simple clothes, and posses basic medicine (but everyone is vaccinated from most illnesses, and there is a robot MedEvac chopper on stand-by 24/7 a few hundred meters away from the village) In short: You can attempt to live that primitive lifestyle (and have the benefits of that), with the backup of modern tech (to avoid all the negatives of that primitive lifestyle) To some degree this is already the case in USA - look at how modern farmers live. A simple life, but with all the comforts of modern safety and security services...

I feel like this is more real and observant than what we acknowledge. I see tribes like the Hopi Indians being remains of a previous civilization. I think their culture reflects some of the previous civilization here on Earth, from a time when the technology was so balanced and developed that we worshiped it like the sun. Interesting subject.

Now there's something I'd like to see. Isaac Arthur Explains O'Neill Cylinders (And Other Extraterrestrial/Extrasolar Options) To An Amish Person would be incredibly interesting to see. Would they be interested in the idea of potentially living in their own cylinder? Or settling a new world should the option arise (unlikely as that may be any time soon)? So many questions!

I think what people want is not primitivism, but they want out of the modern rat-race, out of the cities they are forced to live in in order to have a career/job/secure their childrens future. A study showed that one in three people in the city of Helsinki did not want to live there but had to due to job/schools, only 34% of the finnish people when asked prefered to live in a city if given the choice. And I remember another american article saying the same thing about young people leaving rural areas there, they feel they have to. What people want (not all people, but certainly to a greater degree than our current society thinks and allows for) is the small scale but our society says no, capitalism demands urbanization, centralization and mass consumption. BUT IMO humans are naturally inclined to prefer to form smaller social groups with higher levels of trust between individuals and high degrees of equality. These egalitarian small societies though are something technology can help bring about, not stop. The problems in our society are political, not technological.

Are the Amish a modern day version of Techno-Primitivism? I can see an Amish like civilization in the far future.

Awesome video!

Another possible angle "techno-primitivism" could take would be a society with highly-advanced biological, ecological, and genetic sciences that replaces conventional technologies with living creatures. SF examples include the Yuuzhan Vong (Star Wars EU), Species 8742 (Star Trek) and arguably, the Na'vi from Avatar. It's at least conceivable that such a civilization could be capable spacefarers without much that looks like "technology" as we know it.

Techno Primitivism? do you mean Amish?

You got to wounder, would this create Techno Barbarians?

I think that love for old things is partly based in the idea that old things are a bit of a luxury. Nice old things tell people you can afford the extra money to acquire and use such a thing. Like with a straight razor. Not only could you afford one you can afford all the extra time it takes to sharpen, clean and shave. Time/money is not so scarce to you that you use this old method.

Isaac Azimov explored this problem in most of his Robot series books. He was a gifted writer and a scientist.