The weapon itself is a reference to Valves butchered item balance

"Scouts melee slot is disposable." No, the fish is a necessity for any and all Scout builds lol

All I can hear is WUNUNUNUNUNUNUH

Scout thinks hes the real slim shady

Thing about the Guillotine is often you only have one shot and opportunity to seize everything you ever wanted

Important footnote: the cleaver is only banned in sixes, not Highlander, at least in North America. From my experience using it it’s really really good on koth, but not much else in HL.

I'm still surprised you haven't made a video like how the Scorch shot is evil, but instead for the Vaccinator. I'd argue that MANY more classes hate fighting the Vaccinator than they do fighting the scorch shot.

6:55 Ok, this is so stupid. Not only he just died, but he also ate your projectile! Who needs enemies, with a dad like this?

I do wish that the cleaver would at least gain mini-crits on debuffed/airborne targets. I think that would be pretty fair since the strafing bug does exist and it gives him some niche team options. Perhaps dynamically increasing the cool down when this effect triggers would also balance it out. Right now it's less a weapon that rewards careful aim, timing, and game sense and more something you spam down chokepoints since the cool down is so godamn fast. Sure you can go for moon shots and trick shots, but you're not really getting rewarded for them. Also woe, cleaver be upon ye.

For a long time, I thought you had to hit the head with the guillotine for guaranteed crits. It's one of those Mandela effect things I guess, but with TF2 stats.

13:05 that shot on the retreating scout was a thing of absolute beauty! My man thought he was getting away clean

"Wait a second... I just remembered! CAPTURE THE FLAG HAS CRITS ON CAP!!!" Turns around, pulling out his cleaver as the Enemy Scout turns the corner. "YOU FOOL!" Throws the Flying Guillotine with a "Ty the Tasmanian Tiger" Boomerang SFX being played as the cleaver flies towards the Red Scout and cleaves their head open, causing a funny rag doll as they fall face first into the water!

Heres a little something to get your money up. Keep that chin up Fish

Flava be upon yee

5:30 Ah, someone playing scout targeting the sentry first and not the Engineer that built it. Some things just never change, do they?

Thumbnail is a great reference.

TBh comp shouldn't be really considered when it comes to balancing. 6's and Highlander are so different and so small that it's next to impossible to perfectly balance everything for both audiences. just let them ban it and leave it at that.

150 damage for the cleaver combo is a little unfair. 100 damage + bleed is pretty fair. Especially when the sandman basically doesn't stun you at all anymore.

7:34 this can actually be a great way to train your aim. It certainly worked for me

I've only played TF2 for two years before they violently murdered The Sandman, I didn't even play Scout that much; yet another seven years later I still clearly remember every single Sandman + Guillotine combo compilation that I had watched. I really miss using sandman against other sandman users, it was really fun for me when I only started playing

Undoubtedly, we live in virtual insanity

An item just not working for both casual and comp at the same time is best addressed by just keeping the balance pub-focused and letting it stay banned. Wish Valve had figured that out before they nerfed the Quick Fix.

I can imagine a timeline where the Guillotine gets crits on moonshots to tie it back with the Sandman, but I think it'd have to get its damage cut down to 40 on impact just so you don't get huntsman arrows deleting Medics on a bodyshot. On that note, I think the Wrap Assassin should have mini-crits on moonshot, get that damage buff to the bleed.

8:28 when competetive player discovers that game can be funny

The flying guillotine has always been a curious case to me

The cleaver is part of my fav subclass: Knife Scout. Backscatter, Cleaver, Rune Blade. And don't forget to dress sharp :)

Classic TF2 pub experience courtesy of "Bluegrass Boi" at 3:04

Short stop + flying guillotine + fan of war. I love this lodaut, trow guillotyne and a full clip of the shortstop, reload and thorw yhe guillotine again. And the fan o war for heavys ans mini crit bleed. Love it.

Good choice of the jsr music 😊

I'd love if this became it's own series! We have bad weapon academy, covering bad weapons. In defence of, covering good weapons, and curious case where the weapons fall somewhere between the two.

The thumbnail is perfect ❤.

Well I appreciate the transparency Fish. Love your videos dude.

the structure of this video was actually fantastic, good work Fish

Man this, the sandman, and the ambassador make me incredibly sad, where did the good old days go? 😔

Guaranteed crits for however long the slow lasts for from the sandman, boom combo back, and nothing really needs to be changed because the sandman adds so little that you’re just health for a crit every once in a while

I think if we were to bring back the crit cleaver glory, there's a couple ways we could go about it. 1. Have the Guillotine crit against bleeding enemies. That would eliminate the "competition from the Wrap Assassin" issue (and in fact _encourage_ people to run *_BOTH_* weapons, instead), and would even have great synergy with the Boston Basher, as that also causes bleed. 2. Have the Guillotine crit whenever it would normally mini-crit. This one might be a smidge more balanced as Scout's only means of causing mini-crits is with the Fan O' War, but there's also the Buff Banner and Jarate that would become additional sources of crits. In either case, as you mentioned, I think the recharge time would have to be doubled or even _tripled_ from what it is, now.

I think an area that is often overlooked with the Flying Guillotine or bleed items in general is that they essentially allow you to 'Dual weild' your damage. You can't use a pisol at the same time as the scattergun but having someone bleeding WHILE you fight them can feel like hell for the other dude While you did touch on it at the end I think an almost overlooked element of the cleaver is that it makes bursting down heavies a LOT easier if you tag them with the Cleaver first. 90 damage plus the scattergun is a crazy ammount of damage before some players can even react. It's genuinly a good weapon for 1v1's vs buffed players or heavies, usually good scout counters.

Woe, portable french revolution be apon ye.

3:02 YT Unfriendly word in chat, just letting you know Fish

Remember, bleed damage is mostly psychological

12:00 that might have not aged well, thankfully 😂

It's kinda like the Smash Ball from Smash Bros. It's a ton of fun casually, but there are some aspects of Final Smashes (namely Peach and Daisy, who get a full, unneutered effect even with the weaker meter version), that prevent it from being in competitive. I do think a subleague featuring the Smash Ball or Final Smash meter could be fun though.

Fish needs to make a cameo next time Soundsmith makes a video on flava, it'd be glorious!

rlly good video, ithink more of these 'curious case' videos would b interesting to delve into the more Weird things goin on with the weapons that arent really Bad or Overpowered like inthe other videos

I think the cloak and dagger should get an in defense of episode it’s a nifty side grade that sacrifices mobility in exchange for being able to pick your battles Plus its similarities to stock has an added benefit of being able to trick people since they can’t tell which watch you’re using something not even the dead ringer can do.

Rework idea: (x)% damage penalty Crits launched players (x)% deploy penalty No random crits Launched meaning rocket jumping players or players moved by other third party displacement like air blast, FAN, etc. would lead to hype combos/airshots, rewarding skill. Deploy penalty may be necessary to avoid an air blast -> reserve shooter situation. Could be replaced with “holster” penalty to punish spamming/ more clearly define the weapon as a finishing tool. Thoughts?

"it isn't well balanced for competitive" GOOD. The game isn't designed to be competitive, its a 12v12 chaotic frag fest. Comp will end up running mostly stock regardless

I guess being awake at 2AM is one way of being first

Love the video! I have no worries about the donation goal in the corner, but maybe raise your hud so nothings being covered? ❤

That thumbnail is awesome

it really seems like rent is due. noboy even talks about the guillotine since the crit combo was removed.

the moment I recognize Blu's loadout struck a nostalgia trip on me. both him and the sandman combo

“Videos like these are made possible by viewers like you” I just got reminded of pbs kids

Hope your finances get better fish, great video as always.

I would say that the balance of the Sandman Guillotine combo is actually having the skill to pull it off.

i love how half the vid he's running the flava loadout for scout

i think what seperates the cleaver from items like the jarate is that its entirely single target and its secondary effect is entirely negatable

i think if crit clevers were to ever come back it should pair with the fan where you mark someone with the fan then the mini crit would become a crit for the clever, or it should be paired with the sandman again but the clever crits whenever to slowed targets

10:00 I would not mind that at the cost of the recharge rate, it crits when it would normally minicrit.

God that 2fort Cleaver crit clip at the end just gives me life. Also yeah i think the Flying Guillotine is honestly fine where it is balance wise currently and it is the only weapon in TF2 i can think of that has no major weaknesses but its strenghts are just balanced enough that it does not become completely overpowered as it once used to be.

hey fish, best of luck with the finances and whatnot. i recently hit a rough patch with money problems, and i know how tough it can be. stay strong out there!

8:35 lmao that disrespect for the sniper

Can i suggest, for the dopamine hit of the Sandman Cleaver; -Bit less damage -Crit on Airshots and/or headshots -lower bleed damage per tick but a longer duration. Less straight-up damage for emergencies, but you get that snap decision of “Trolldier? WHACK! Another Scout? WHACK! A demo with stickies out? WHACK- Oh he pulled out the pipes and nailed me right in the kisser twice.”

From experience, if using the cleaver, go stock scattergun with it Do not pair this with any primary that had less than 4 bullets in the clip You will be left without a reliable damage finisher more often than not

Thank you for the video!

In all honesty, i think the Guillotine is in a perfect spot, on minor change i make is if you kill someone with the initial hit it makes the rag dolls go flying so you dont need crits.

nice Layzuhcatz reference from your thumbnail. Also the background song is 100% Jet Set Radio.

Oh boy I can't to pay TF2 and deal with a bunch of clevers scouts for a few days

Damn some of these clips are pretty huge, Fish's Cleaver aim might rival his Sniper aim

i like this as a series

One more thing about cleaver vs wrap assassin is physics. The travel speed and weight of the cleaver compared to the ornament makes it so much easier to aim IMO.

The cleaver is IMO one of the best side grades out there and my go to for the rare occasion I fill scout, always pairing with the wrap assassin as there is no need for a melee to use as a melee, if I manage to wiff and still be alive by then there is a major problem. Comparing to stock: you lose the short-mid range rapid fire low damage (I can't seem to hit more than 1-2 rounds per clip even aiming at people who are not moving quickly or firing into groups) if I can land my clear it does like 2 hits of point blank pistol before any bleed damage, it can also be bleeding while I shoot my scattergun of choice or do something else, unlike the pistol which does no damage if I am not actively shooting and hitting with it. You gain alot of range, it does 50 up close and 68 after flying for 0.5 seconds where the bleed also increases to 54 total, the pistol loses damage over distance harshly even if there was no bullet spread causing missed shots at range. The pistol also doesn't have that many spare clips compared to the engineer which limits its ability to take its super low 8 damage a hit long range shots that are really only good at resetting a healing ramp up for when the medic gets to healing the target. By taking both you get 2 shots at long range harrasment on targets and if you hit both you can do 80 bleed in 5 seconds (94 at distance) combine with the initial hits and you can achieve 59(min wrap ball with bleed)+50(direct cleaver)+54 (distant bleed cleaver) for a total of 163, if I did my math correctly which if a class can't reach healing in 5 seconds would kill the scout, engineer, medic, sniper and spy, I think the medic's self heal requires ramp up time, starting at 1/s which would not be enough to prevent bleeding out.

I usually use like Luger because I have it. But I use the cleaver and wraps with my favored gun soda popper and it’s so much fun

I want the cleaver combo back, even if it's nerfed or doesn't do anything beyond playing a satisfying sound effect. It was just satisfying.

i don’t play tf2 but i think the best change here is makng the recharge time like 15-20 seconds but it crits on bleeding targets

i think it would be neat if it’s like the bazaar bargain where the more kills it gets the faster the recharge nerf the starting and cap it at the long range hit’s 3.5 sec and it would be pretty fun to use

The only change id change is instead of stun make it bleed or mini crit = crit hit. And Lower damage by making full health enemies left with 20 health meaning a non damage class hit with a crit charged cleaver will have like a good 4 seconds to get healed or find a healthpack. Making it a super useful forced enemy retreating weapon

love your videos, keep the good work

I still think that they could have literally just changed the effect the cleaver crits with at long range to the slow down effect of the sandman. They could even go so far as to have it be like the axtinguisher where it does more damage based on how long the slowdown effect has left when hit by the cleaver. This would probably be the better option as it does mean that if you take too long to get that 2nd hit you won't do as much damage as the crit combo.

I said for the sandman video bringing back the combo with the sandman in it's current state would be really interesting given that its not a full stun anymore and just a slow I think it might be more balanced but you could play around with it being full crits or mini crits.

The Flying Guillotine in TF2 has always seemed like a curious case to me.

The flying peeotine

Something with the cleaver + wrap that you didn't mention hitting both will take out a 125 hp class unless they are right next to a healthkit. If the wrap assassin high rolls or crits, that'll also take out a 175 hp class as well. Medic is hit or miss if the dots will get him because of his passive regen though.

just make the sandman ball go back to the stun but make it a one time use per life/supply closet refresh like the caber. maybe make it so if you pick up the ball within 10 seconds of it being hit, you get it back, but if it despawns it despawns, and if you hit the person, it also despawns

the wrap assasin and clever can kill every light class and is amazing if youre trying to make the bfb work

I never got to experience the old sandman i would have loved to see a 2009 server with all the old effects

"Woe, sharp rectangle be upon you" -the real scout shady

Ima be honest the atomizer is cool but if u want movement just use the fan. And if ur using the fan you can one pop most people after hitting them with the wrap assasin which also have splash and the cleaver is very good because it can send people straight back to re supply from blood. Also 60 damage into a fan shot again one shots and has way more mobility.

Im a huge fan of crit cleavers too and making crit on bleed be the replacement makes a lot of sense IF you reduce the base damage of the cleaver from 50 -> 35 105 crits arent to be scoffed at especially after any of the other bleed effects that hit before. It still makes for a lethal combo and pairs with the wrap assassin. If the cleavers bleed was long enough to let you hit another cleaver on the same target for the crit thatd be crazy but also a huge reward for managing to hit the same target twice with 2 seperate cleavers in close succession

I don't remember where I heard it, but I saw people talking about bringing back the sandman cleaver combo in a more balanced fashion, that being to put the "crits when it would minicrit" from the Fan O' War onto the Guillotine, and changing the Sandman's ball from slowing to mark for death. Would it be powerful? Maybe, but it's still a bit more fair, seeing as the enemy can still fight back.

The tf2 flying guillotine has always seen like a strange case to me

Flava scout will always be my favourite subclass

Imagine the cleaver being able to crit just like the Sandman and Wrap Assassin balls

The absolutely evil way to balance the Cleaver is to change it from a secondary to a Wrap Assassin reskin. Gets around the ban (assuming WA isn't banned in comp, I really don't know) and makes it still usable. However it removes the soul of the item and any melee comboes one might have fun with so...

"Yeah, I can't pronounce "L'etranger" but I can pronounce "Guillotine,"" It's just so commonplace, especially when hungry

Bfb, guillotine, wrap assassin is my favorite scout loadout. Wait until you get a safe long range bleed projectile hit, then go sonic speed

I didn’t catch it and now I’m bleeding out.

3:06 nice chat message from Bluegraass Boi :-(

I feel like minicrits on it in some way (super long range shots? on debuffed targets?) would be cool

LOVE THE JSR OST