The 5 Sins Artists Should Be Aware of

The 5 Sins Artists Should Be Aware of - Draftsmen S2E27

Рет қаралды 51,013

Күн бұрын

Marshall talks to Stan about the different “corrupting” influences which can affect the purity of an art piece. Some problems affect the craft of your art, but others affect the spirit, undermining the meaning you are trying to convey in your work. These pitfalls, while hard to avoid, are something Marshall believes artists should be aware of as they pursue their careers. Learn how pandering, sentimentality, mannerism, frigidity, and didacticism can violate the spirit of art and how an artist battles between being commercially attractive to clients versus being considered a sellout and a hack.
Thanks to Betterhelp for sponsoring today’s Draftsmen episode! Save 10% on your first month with Betterhelp - betterhelp.com/draftsmen
Topics:
00:00 - Intro
02:24 - How this topic Came Up
04:57 - Pandering
13:13 - Sentimentality
18:42 - What’s the Point of the Sins
21:21 - Expanding on Pandering
31:21 - Sentimentality Revisited
34:17 - Mannerism
38:27 - Frigidity
43:10 - Didacticism
Show Links (some contain affiliate links):
The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers by John Gardner - amzn.to/31m8ibS
Leo Tolstoy - proko.com/draftsmen-media/leo...
Thomas Kinkade - proko.com/draftsmen-media/tho...
Norman Rockwell - proko.com/draftsmen-media/nor...
Ralph Bakshi - proko.com/draftsmen-media/ral...
James Gurney - proko.com/draftsmen-media/jam...
Just Break the News to Mother - Carson Robison Trio (1930): • Video
The Color Purple - amzn.to/2FMGmXk
John Cleese on Letterman: • Monty Python on Letter...
Karl Kopinski Interview: www.proko.com/how-to-be-popul...
Rembrandt - proko.com/draftsmen-media/rem...
Vincent van Gogh - proko.com/draftsmen-media/van...
Paper Moon - amzn.to/3o5S6Wb
John Singer Sargent - proko.com/draftsmen-media/joh...
Double Indemnity - amzn.to/3m3i36V
Fresh (1994) - amzn.to/3m00swA
The Death of Stalin (2018) - amzn.to/3kff7DM
The Last Laugh documentary (2016) - amzn.to/3m0P5oa
Take My Course, Please! the Philosophy of Humor - Steven Gimbel - amzn.to/31jMGgo
Schitt’s Creek - amzn.to/31lnd68
Pee-Wee’s Playhouse Christmas Special - amzn.to/3m469tr
Story by Robert McKee - amzn.to/3o8Slj1
The Public Enemy - amzn.to/35dgw7A
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#sellout #artphilosophy #drawing
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Charlie Nicholson
Editing - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh )
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra

Пікірлер: 338

@Draftsmen 3 жыл бұрын

What are examples of art and movies you would have liked if they hadn't put a sermon in at the end?

@AngelaMerici12 3 жыл бұрын

I don't remember any... And I think that is because when that happens it breaks the rest of it.

@RICE-lq1zc 3 жыл бұрын

This might be a reach but, Tyler Perry's Acrimony for me was one example. Although now I think about it, he might have made Taraji's narration that obviously antagonized the male protagonist, to make her tragedy all the more painful. If it wasn't, then I thought her narration was trying to do all the thinking for the audience. Explaining how every single thing the male character said or did was a deceptive ploy to take advantage of her and ruin her life. Which I don't think was the case

@theunraveler 3 жыл бұрын

The Disney Star Wars trilogies. Mulan (2020). Captain Marvel. Ghostbusters (2016). Terminator Dark Fate.

@galarog5598 3 жыл бұрын

anne with an e new netflix show

@13en56 3 жыл бұрын

I don't really understand the difference between didacticism and conveying a message in your art. You talked about Rockwell's end of life period, when he painted social problems in America. Is it not also taking a moral stance and showing it to the viewer? Or is like sentimentalism, where it is only a question of intensity and clumsiness. Execpt for the latter one emotions are imposed to the viewer without subtlety, and for the former one it is a point of view, an opinion? I'm a bit confused, and would appreciate clarifications. I am not a native English speaker, I apologize for any mistake.

@samdeacon7910 3 жыл бұрын

Why i listen to draftsmen 10% art advice 20% Stans humor 70% wishing Marshall was my grandad

@sgtpepper91 2 жыл бұрын

you're bald.

@voodoogroove8209 3 жыл бұрын

Marshall, can we go through your book shelf some time? That's quite a lot of good books.

@alfiemarshall9224 3 жыл бұрын

yess this

@Joombajuice 3 жыл бұрын

Vote this up guys, I love this idea and would love to see it happen!

@didi1406 3 жыл бұрын

I fourth this

@icywalrus4906 3 жыл бұрын

I think that every video.

@dezukaful 3 жыл бұрын

this

@OriLOK2 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for saying "I like Norman Rockwell just because I like Normal Rockwell". It's gotten to where you can't like someone or something without a good thesis on their greater value, and I feel like that misses a very central part of art, which is sometimes it just makes you feel a certain way and that's a good enough reason that it exists.

@armoredsolus6233 3 жыл бұрын

It did take a little determination from Stan to make him admit it though. :p I respect Marshall more for this. He separated examination from opinion in the end.

@KiX-K4T13 3 жыл бұрын

Marshall is the Master of the art of "Waiting for Stan".

@aishasspace1 3 жыл бұрын

Ha ha hmmm

@KevinMccainArtist 3 жыл бұрын

I also think there needs to be a discussion the differences between "sentimental" which almost implies a bit of falsehood visually instead of "tender" which implies a truth of the human experience.

@brant-bi8563 3 жыл бұрын

I personally don't like much the discussion around what "real art" is because most of the justifications start sounding elitist at some point. I think both "simple" and "deep" art needs to exist, because as humans we don't consume only one or the other and most of the time, it's healthier to consume a balance of the two. Yes, if we only consume simplistic empty stuff we may go stupid, but if we were only to consume war and other heavy world problems content throughout the whole day we would go depressed. Sometimes all you want is a painting of a silly little cottage hanging on your kitchen because it has pretty colors and nothing else, and that should be totally okay. I think it's okay that we as artists don't like that only one type of art is being more consumed by the masses than the other, and we may feel it's unfair that important artists don't get as much likes as a generic female portrait on instagram, but I think we can have this conversation without needing to tell other artists their art is not "real art", nor disminish one for the other.

@caleb1031 3 жыл бұрын

The masses are people, and people naturally look for things that they find important. Artists, and non artists alike. In a sense fine art is the aggregate art that very skilled artists find important. Maybe it's like a respect thing. I personally would prefer to have a simplistic cottage hanging on my wall then any fine art, but that's an opinion based on the things that I find important.

@ReyZar666 3 жыл бұрын

lets just remember that "the masses" are non expert people on a certain area, in this case just happen to be art, and we are hearing to expert talking about art, thus it make sense that they understand to a deep lvl what is and what isnt good,.. the masses just consume what everyone else consume,.. keep that in mind and the idea of "elitist" just break a part,.. this ofc apply to everything, like for example, climate change

@caleb1031 3 жыл бұрын

@@ReyZar666 I don't exclusively like art for excellent rendering, color, or shape theory. I like a piece of art for the ideas it conveys. I can look at a master painting, and a rough sketch, and appreciate the rough sketch more if it has a greater vision behind it.

@brant-bi8563 3 жыл бұрын

I don't think art can be compared to science. Science is always meant to be objective, Art is not.

@ReyZar666 3 жыл бұрын

@@brant-bi8563 oh yeah? tell that to Darwin,.. or literally every other illustration of space,.. Art is another for of communication,.. is not about "not been objective" it about telling something on a visually format

@maxismakingstuff 3 жыл бұрын

There are a lot of popular artists out there I feel that do nothing but pandering, but they're also just painting what they enjoy. I used to hate on them for it, but after a while I just realized I get nothing out of my jealousy.

@armoredsolus6233 3 жыл бұрын

I consider it a waste of time as well. I am more focused on my own behavior and journey. My opinion on their work changes little in their course. I also recognize that to make sound judgements on what I do enjoy, I must also expose myself to what I do not. Sometimes the sole existence of a piece is a motivator for people to work in the opposite direction. I detest when artistic expertise is confused with a personal judgement. Censorship is the enemy of truth, and I think art is one of the key ways we can seek truth in our lives.

@powersdustin709 3 жыл бұрын

Marshall your analogy of flavor and taste when it comes to art is spot on. Some synapses in my mind fired and new connections were made there. That was really great. I feel that a lot artists make art for other artists, and that may be a big factor in to their success or their lack there of. This conversation is absolute gem.

@logantj8020 3 жыл бұрын

I never knew there was so much criticism about what is considered cheap and what is considered art. I thought beauty was in the eyes of the beholder, and art is subjective. I doubt there'd be a time where everyone will ultimately agree on what is cheap and what isn't, so I never quite understood the purpose of the argument. I enjoy the diversity of work that's put out there. Even if I don't value some art over others, that wouldn't mean its lost any place in the art world, it just appeals to someone else's taste. I think that diversity is something to be appreciated whether it's studio work, commercial art, so on. Not to say Marshall or Stan are imposing opinions or anything. I mean in regard to the really harsh, vocal critics.

@TheJoshLange 3 жыл бұрын

The ad timing on this is unintentionally hilarious. It's almost like Stan is going for "if you're thinking of selling out, try reaching out to Better Help" XD

@Alex-jx8ez 3 жыл бұрын

Man, I just love Marshall. he just makes these podcasts.

@icemarle 3 жыл бұрын

As a violinist, my ears perked up at Marshall saying "too many violins". I immediately thought he meant an orchestra. 🤣

@KevinMccainArtist 3 жыл бұрын

Rockwell stated he was looking for warmer and more sentimental themes in his work after being exposed to the wars of the earlier 20th century. Even though the scenes are sentimental they explore parts the human experience. I see that very different from Kinkade who was running art sweatshops to make millions of more dollars exploiting his art laborers. Kinkade's is beyond sentimental his work is like a painting of crying clowns standing next to sad-eyed puppies next to a window with a sunset with ducks flying across the sky, it's just so ridiculously over the top.

@PurpleFlush 3 жыл бұрын

That’s selling out in my opinion, he’s willing to squeeze and exploit the vulnerable to make money, it’s the complete lack of ethics that make someone a sellout.

@KevinMccainArtist 3 жыл бұрын

@@PurpleFlush I don't know if you are referring to Rockwell. I don't see Rockwell as a "sellout" If someone chooses themes to contain a certain feeling to them because that is the way they choose to create art and those sentiments are a common part of the shared human experience of family, courtship, celebration, and others, I don't see that as selling out. Kincade was not only a "sellout" but exploited both the art industry by sowing disinformation to those who bought his prints and posters sold as supposed "original work" he also exploited his sweatshops where they cranked out prints of his images with some bit of paint that were again sold as "original art." The difference between these men and what they produced is on opposite sides of the spectrum.

@PurpleFlush 3 жыл бұрын

@@KevinMccainArtist no I meant Kencade. Rockwell’s a good artist and a great human being, I love his art.

@Montragon29 3 жыл бұрын

You are both the best audio/video company during drawing sessions...Keep this podcast live! And thank you!

@pjlewisful 3 жыл бұрын

This really made me think. You guys are both such good observers of not only art but life.

@alenruzicka7909 3 жыл бұрын

Hi Stan and Marshall! First of all, I love this podcast, I've seen every single one of your episodes and they were of tremendous help. I think your best episode was the one about studying the old masters and it seemed like you really enjoyed making it as well. That subject to me seems like it could become an inspiration for a series of episodes just because it is such an important subject for us artists. I would definitely love to see more episodes on that (and I'm sure other listeners feel the same). Plus, it looks like an untapped area on youtube.

@izeg690 3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely lovely to see you Marshall! Love this podcast so much.

@lemondebrule 3 жыл бұрын

One of my favourite episodes ! Marshall going trhough any subject he's passionate about is always a delight. I learned a lot :)

@victor1804 3 жыл бұрын

One of the best episodes you've done until now. Great stuff!!

@ronrob1998 2 жыл бұрын

This is literally the best thing on youtube. Marshall has a very therapeutic voice and also a great teacher, Stan is very talented too. Really look up to you guys. Its always an energy boost for me whenever I listen to this podcast and sketch. Thank you so much for this. Learned a lot from here.

@kevinbc6551 3 жыл бұрын

i love the mention of Kubrick here, because it importantly distinguishes sentimentality from sincerity. He only ever pushes a strong emotion when used as a device to expand on an idea, never as an attempt to manipulate the viewer. He simply arms us with all of the correct information, dialogue, visual symbols, set design, and facial cues needed in order for the viewer to solve the puzzle/interpret the work. The beauty of 'The Shining' is in the implication of genocide, the implication of the reincarnation of evil. The beauty of 'Eyes Wide Shut' is in the implication of what masked temptation leads to. He never interjects a personal agenda outright. Simply exposes the story, just right. What a master! Another valuable distinction that I appreciated was the spectrum of mannerism. From pretense, to showing off, to sincere quirkiness; this is where i struggle. IMO, once you know what you are illustrating, style and mannerism becomes Everything! Style is what gives the subject power, and when I try too hard, pretense is the outcome. When I let it flow, almost subconsciously, sincere quirkiness is the product. Everything else is practice that I hope has the potential of coming across as "impressive". PS: Love you guys! Never stop!

@digitalArtform 3 жыл бұрын

Kincaide had a list of “rules” you can find online. He distributed them to people adapting his work to Hallmark channel TV shows. I remember they were sort of interesting.

@olelayee 3 жыл бұрын

Loved this podcast, very thought-provoking! Thank you for letting Marshall speak the whole episode without interruption!;-)

@AndreLuis-gw5ox 3 жыл бұрын

In Brazil, we have a saying regarding what Marshall said about the "golden rule": "Whoever pays for the band, chooses the song"

@gordacapivara 3 жыл бұрын

We also have "Cucumbers should be twisted early on" and other sayings that sound funny when translated and completely unrelated to the real meaning. Just like my reply to your comment. Completely unrelated. I just wanted to say oi conterrâneo.

@viniciusmanasses154 3 жыл бұрын

Estou feliz de saber que tem outros brasileiros assistindo esse podcast

@gordacapivara 3 жыл бұрын

@@viniciusmanasses154 difícil é achar onde nois não tá kkkkk

@joaopaints 3 жыл бұрын

love your podcasts, it's helped me so much! thank you :))

@Slnbrsn 3 жыл бұрын

I'm always having a good laught when I first see the thumbnail, these edits are gold tier

@MystiqWisdom 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, I didn't know that someone put all that effort into researching what people want and actually made all those paintings. That sounds pretty genius to me, tbh, because he achieved great success and found the lane that he wanted to be in.

@martinagaljan9626 3 жыл бұрын

This is my fav episode so far!

@slop5310 3 жыл бұрын

Great episode. I'll definitely be thinking about the candy analogy for my future work.

@ravenburneskushner1825 3 жыл бұрын

This is why it can be a good thing for fine artists to have a day job. That way you don't have to choose between paying the bills and staying true to your artistic vision. But no choice is without consequences.

@amac333 3 жыл бұрын

Such a great talk, I've so much to say on it.. but had to say bravo on that add placement. It evoked a hearty slightly conflicted laugh from me. I enjoyed it. Thanks.

@francisanton2329 3 жыл бұрын

I love this dynamic duo!

@friendfortheartists Жыл бұрын

Thomas Kinkade painted a dream, a hope, an fond experience when young, and an idea of heavenliness. When I hear the reactions you're expression I understand very much where you are in your journey of life. The reactions vary by the health of your soul. If you're feeling dirty about your own soul you're going to think I will never live there or I don't deserve a place like this. If you want to hang onto this there's going to be all kinds of negative reactions including threats of violence. The reality of the whole experience with Kinkade as I observe observers is if you're in a state of hopelessness it's terrible art. If you're naive or well healed from the tests in life then a place like this is your hope. In some cases people already live in a Kinkade cottage because they are so thankful for the shack they could be living in now. Just because of the reactions Kinkade's art pulls in is a testament to this being a great work of art. The state of the artists not only represents this but serves as a warning of extremes. The presence of these paintings makes one reconcile with heaven or hell. Last word on Kinkade. I live in a shack but there is so much nature around me that I grow more and more thankful each day. In my eyes I see the birds and the greens more vividly each day. I am retired and I photograph regularly, used to do airbrushing when work wasn't available. Now that I got some time, I get a chance to be more thankful each day. This is corny and each day becomes more like a Kinkade painting or a Rockwell moment when I look at things given to me. What will be interesting is when it's time to pass on will I be so grateful that even that moment will be greeted thankfully and peacefully?

@SA-ux2yo 3 жыл бұрын

I feel like the movie Avatar (2009) really beats you over the head with the message to the point of being ridiculous

@rachaelstohr7658 3 жыл бұрын

I second that, Avatar is the first movie that comes to my mind when I think “preachy”

@Stettafire 3 жыл бұрын

@@rachaelstohr7658 I introduce you to Fern Gully

@caripete3 Жыл бұрын

The Jon cleese quote made me lol. What a great topic! Gave me much to think about!

@Changetheling 3 жыл бұрын

. I believe Magic: The Gathering should also be an interesting topic regarding art creation, management, advertising and the scope of high art applied to mainstream (well... "mainstream" in a manner of speak... MTG is incredibly popular, granted). Boris Vallejo, Brom and Ciruelo Cabral, among many other outstanding artists have created card designs, and it would be great to know more about it. John Avon, Randy "rk" Post, Terese Nielsen and many other traditional artists get special requests to alter their printed MTG card works (and in the case of rk post, create special tokens and making a living out of it, which I'm sure Master Kopinski has done as well). For the love of God, please do a Terese Nielsen episode!! Still patiently waiting for a Comic Book Creators' special episode. Many of the sins discussed today are displayed on full force since that medium's inception, and regarding draftsmanship... whew. Neal Adams, Dave Stevens, Greg Capullo, Dave McKean, GODDAMN ALEX ROSS, etc... I believe there quite the material out there, and Marshall seems to know a LOT about comics... Good video; quite a bit of perplexing, honestly.

@TaterProduction 3 жыл бұрын

Oh heck yes to the comic book episode!! Alex Ross would be craaaaazy!

@nehaghosh8584 3 жыл бұрын

Yess please ! A comic book episode !!

@chuzzbot 3 жыл бұрын

Nows I understand me the energy. Thanx Marshy.

@Daemonpool65 3 жыл бұрын

Gosh, I love these two.

@jimorlowski5051 3 жыл бұрын

when I saw the Durer book in the background I smiled because of his art, his craft, and his business....echoing through this point and counterpoint of this discussion....urer the man of the sod and the rabbit, the self portrait, and mass produced woodcuts

@TaigaGetsBitches 3 жыл бұрын

so basically pandering nowadays is being a nsfw twitter artist ?

@AndreLuis-gw5ox 3 жыл бұрын

You know, now that you mentioned it, the biggest artists I ever saw on social medial with very large followings are either literall masters or nsfw artists, and everybody in the middle is also doing at least some degree of nswf

@powersdustin709 3 жыл бұрын

Those artists drive me absolutely crazy.

@17th_Colossus 3 жыл бұрын

As someone who does nsfw art, i can tell you i would do it whether or not i was getting paid. Its not pandering if you enjoy what you do. But otherwise yes, if you are doing it to pay your bills, stop there and then spend the rest of your time making what you love.

@HDliketheTV 3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. But I must say fanservice is art.

@izeg690 3 жыл бұрын

Marshall is such a cool guy, love you too there, Stan!

@christinas3757 3 жыл бұрын

This is such a great topic! I just had my middle school art students study the work of Kristoffer Zetterstrand. We recreated his paintings in Minecraft Ed, and wrote a report on him. One of the questions I asked my students to address was, "Is Kristoffer's art considered 'Fine Art,' and why?" We had a great conversation about the various genres of art, and the spheres artists influence. We specifically discussed the fine art and entertainment/gaming communities. I got some great conversation time when asking them to define art. I wish I could play this whole podcast for them in class. 😁

@PedroGBSilva 3 жыл бұрын

The Sentimentality section of the video really reminded me of Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. The show sometimes tries very hard to make you miserable, and it appears to work for most people, but when I watched for the first time I just felt like "man, is all of that really necessary? I think you can make this story just as sad, and not appealing so much, thus making it feel cheap"

@ruthfolorunso8715 3 жыл бұрын

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that show. I love the manga (I think it's sentimentality done right), but it doesn't translate well into animation, so you end up with a lot of overblown emotion.

@KoolMonkE 2 жыл бұрын

I thought of Naruto. But anime in general is often guilty of tons of these sins. Preaching too hard, fanservice, trying to make emotional moments way too emotional, etc.

@champarice835 3 жыл бұрын

Well, I can safely say the Draftsmen Podcast is anything but didactic because it's advertised as educational, but I always come to be entertained :)

@sina3957 2 ай бұрын

I don't know if it ties in, but some of the music they used in 'Scent of a Woman' made it feel like I was watching an afternoon Disney special.

@MystiqWisdom 2 жыл бұрын

They are correct about one thing about Kinkade in that I can't keep looking at his work only, and I wouldn't want more than one in my house, but I would like one.

@art_renae 2 жыл бұрын

This podcast reinforced the idea that art cannot be judged according to principles we've put in place. We might hate so type of art and love another.

@joantatley9654 3 жыл бұрын

I think that the main difference between Norman Rockwell and Thomas Kinkade’s work is that Rockwell is undoubtfully a great craftsman - he paints masterfully, his storytelling skills are incomparable and he has a fantastic sense of humor. Also, you can feel real kindness in all his works. If you want, you can ignore the message, the sugared representation of the reality in his paintings and simply enjoy the mastery and learn from it. In case of Kinkade, the overbearing sentimentality and ‘fairytaleness’ is in the painting style itself - you can’t ignore the choice of colors, the whole style - so if you don’t like it, there is nothing to look at, while the subject is neutral - landscapes, trees, houses, nothing's wrong with the theme itself.

@jables4171 3 жыл бұрын

That french onion soup metaphor really summarize my relationship with Bouguereau's work. Also, Marshall mentioned gore movies as an oposite to sweetness, when people try to make things really edgy, but I think you can find that in painting too. e.g. Odd Nerdrum.

@4h844 3 жыл бұрын

I looked him up, his work seems pretty cool. Not sure why it's deemed "edgy". we all have aesthetic preferences no?

@RareTechniques 3 жыл бұрын

The best podcast in the world

@pibyte 3 жыл бұрын

"All candy with syrup on top" ... this is how I feel when I look at the work of famous deviant-art-artists like Loish. Sweet girls with butterflys and hummingbirds only. But most people don't seem to get tired of it.

@KiX-K4T13 3 жыл бұрын

I get what you mean, but that's more like Ms. Jisu. I just liked a post by Loish with birch autumn trees, golden, reddish leaves. It was quite lovely. But yes, most girls do draw only girls. I'm trying to draw it all. Cars, landscapes, mechs, weapons and military, cute girls, older ladies, etc. Also culturally appropriate characters. Aliens too.

@vp3841 3 жыл бұрын

To be fair, artists like Loish get plenty of criticism like this, usually from art-bros who consider their own brand of syrup to be the only "true" one ;)

@aiiiiiiight-in3oq 3 жыл бұрын

@@vp3841 that's exactly how on art station everyone do the same look

@vp3841 3 жыл бұрын

@@KiX-K4T13 plenty of women draw different stuff (I'm seeing loads of female artists draw men lately and female concept artists who draw whatever). The catch is that, unless they explicitly specify that they're female or post their photos, people just automaticly decide that they're dudes. People seem to really enjoy indulging in old stereotypes...

@KiX-K4T13 3 жыл бұрын

@@vp3841 Hmm, interesting. 🤔 I see your point, but I've seen many girls who draw only girls though. Many of them have channels on KZfaq with 1mil subs and on. I think all artists of all backgrounds and identities could benefit from drawing all things. Though because they don't wish to conform to that idea, they limit themselves in terms of portraits and the like. I guess I'd rather be a "Jill of all Trades" than be great at one thing. But that's because I have problems and wish to see the whole world through "windows" instead of create an appealing face; a character who takes up the entire image space. Again, I want to emphasize that everyone is free to do what they want, but sometimes without a strict code, we let ourselves cheat us out of other opportunities by limiting ourselves to drawing one thing.

@armoredsolus6233 3 жыл бұрын

I never really cared about the meta for art. I think all art is done with ntention behind it. There is always a target audience, yourself included. I think it's everyone's responsibility to balance what they consume on a personal level. Art is art, even when we pander. I think what we do as far as our work, relies solely on our shoulders. You want to formulate pieces to teach a lesson, do it. You want to show the dregs of humanity, do it. I think art is simply a byproduct of human existence. Perhaps I just view it more broadly. I can't pretend to have any more say in your lived experience than you can, at the end of the day we all struggle with meaning and truth. Maybe some people need candy, and maybe some need dirt. I cant say, I am not them, and I would lose my hair stressing over it.

@dsphong2668 3 жыл бұрын

Agree. But I think their point is everyone is gonna need to be a 'Whore' to make more money. In that case an artist need to know something about what people want to see, right?

@adriengahery9471 3 жыл бұрын

Good comment, thank you for sharing. On the last part of your comment, you mentionned candy and dirt, focusing on the viewer's point of view. For the artist's point of view, I would tend to agree with the draftsmen that there should be awareness (not judgement) of the candiness/sourness of your piece. So you can offer a counterpoint in the same piece, making it even better&enjoyable for a broader audience. See Marshall's comments about Rockwell's early works, where the adorable situations Rockwell is depicting actually blossom out of not-so-adorable mindset from the characters.

@yohenson 3 жыл бұрын

that sounds like engineering, not art.

@armoredsolus6233 3 жыл бұрын

@L1qu1d S1lenc3r I enjoy the show very much. I just don't feel pandering constitutes a lack of artistic integrity. Often, the limits we place upon ourselves, and our target audience challenge people to be more creative. The need to pay the bills inspires some and demotivates others. I just think it's more of personal aspect of art making.

@armoredsolus6233 3 жыл бұрын

@@yohenson I can't tell if you consider this a good or bad. Some highly competent artists plan pieces similar to an engineer. Others produce exemplary pieces off the cuff and on a whim. Both ways of artmaking have merit in the end. I think execution lies mostly within the dedication to your craft. Mastering something is a lonely endeavor, so it would make sense to try and map out a road aforehand. Inspiration can be a fickle muse, and when you are not in the throes, it can be difficult to practice. I think sitting down and beginning a piece constitutes a logical step in the planning process. I just don't think considering an audience enough to invalidate artistic integrity. I think what we call art is deeply personal and individual, and there is no one correct answer.

@RedGvi77 3 жыл бұрын

Alejandro Jodorovky's "La Montaña Sagrada" have that feature. But it happened to me that I wasn't enjoying that much the movie until that "preaching" began. It was more like a plot twist with some learning.

@district140newsletter8 3 жыл бұрын

Kinkade's work is formulaic and repetitive in subject matter. Rockwell's work tells a story.

@Noname-ok4tf 3 жыл бұрын

When you talked about the preachiness of university art, you put words to exactly how I feel about a lot of current fine art that deals with social issues! Often I even agree with what the artist is saying but it often feels too artificial and too clear cut.

@michaelland8949 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks 🤙🏻

@edbianchi8839 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you guys, very entertaining and educational. My takeaway is: be honest in your art, but above all, be honest with yourself. And remember; if you work for McDonald’s

@edbianchi8839 3 жыл бұрын

And remember if you work for McDonald and sell millions of hamburgers, does not mean you are the best che. Same thing in art

@jeffhreid 3 жыл бұрын

Thomas Kincade paintings are well painted. They have good perspective, attractive subject matter, the light is well executed. People are just snobby about him , mostly because of the consumer of his work.

@BuilderD 3 жыл бұрын

I'm surprised for "frigidity" you focused so much on violence. I dont disagree, but when I look through art (commercial and fine) I see sexualization and objectification of the female body much more in that category. It's possible to argue exactly what does and doesnt fall into that category but either way it's a plague in the arts. Especially in photography I find it's ubiquitous that instead of artistic development or thought etc the maker will just go 'toss in hot girl, pose like it's a porn shoot, stripe off a layer of clothes and call it a day'. Same thing sexualization for impact rather than artistic merit. Sells well oc, but similar to violence it's degrading and rather disappointing how common it is (especially in commercial art). Ive seen the inverse with sexualization of male for impact as well, but it's not nearly as common. Outside of film, comics, and games I think sexualization is more common than violence as frigidity as an artistic pitfall

@mf-- 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for expanding the discussion. When watching, it felt like I was seeing only one facet of that topic in particular.

@blaneandgame9 3 жыл бұрын

I agree. I’m tired of it. It’s everywhere it’s so blatant. I wonder how much things were sexualized throughout history. It has a lot to do with dopamine addiction in our society. Video games, movies, nsfw, social media, smartphones etc. all at our disposal. Fast food processed diet in general. We are all gluttons compared to people a hundred years ago.

@charliespodiodi 3 жыл бұрын

@@blaneandgame9 On a recent trip to Italy I was stunned by how much great art glorifies rape. And violence.

@4h844 3 жыл бұрын

Of course it really depends on the artist and I know what you're referring to but two questions; why must we be so pretentious and why do some scoff at capturing reality? It sells for a reason, and the only ones splitting hairs are "artists" whose ego compels them to do so

@amac333 3 жыл бұрын

For your Didacticism question, most things that comes out of Hollywood now adays..

@histoky2010 3 жыл бұрын

The proko empire shall expand to both east and west of the Greenwich meridian time.

@eliasandrinopoulos8746 2 жыл бұрын

You mentioned Kubrick, there are several scenes in “Barry Lyndon” that could have been over the top in sentimentality, but because they were handled somewhat dryly and the narrative moved on from those episodes rather quickly, you really don’t take the events in that way. It’s only afterwards that you kind of think about it and think, “oh wow, that happened to Barry, huh?” It’s part of what makes us human so, indeed, there is a place for it when handled correctly.

@OoziHobo 3 жыл бұрын

The editing in this episode was waaaay more noticeable than usual. I bet the recording was all over the place, lol.

@柯禮安G 9 ай бұрын

Good morning, I have a question about this video from 3 years ago. The example of Thomas Kinkade (coauthor with Gurney of his fist book) is mentioned in the video, and Frank Frazetta is mentioned soon. Without denying the expertise of Frazetta in many areas, from my perspective, often he also falls into the same sin of "pandering" the viewer. Much of his sword and sorcery work, not all, has that extra spoonful of sugar to appeal to the superficial feelings of the viewer. It is a different kind of kitsch, but kitsch anyway. I like his use of colour and composition, the dynamism of his figures, but I think he often lacks sobriety, and he did not have to do door to door interviews, he knew how to get the attention he needed.

@jodatrott744 3 жыл бұрын

That's crazy my grandparents have had Kinkade paintings on the wall all these years it all makes sense

@isabelaf.3043 3 жыл бұрын

I wish I could see what was on Marshall's mind when he said "typically, I know there's... Exceptions" 🤣

@didi1406 3 жыл бұрын

I hope Marshall lives forever

@karldarwin1253 3 жыл бұрын

Marshall shall be on TED talks

@littleerichsenstudios2292 3 жыл бұрын

Stan's face when Marshall asks: "What is manierism?" - priceless!

@ArielSunlion 3 жыл бұрын

On the point of Didacticism, I can think of The Lorax movie, but my opinion of the movie, I personally felt, was affected in a positive way because of it

@oxibound5945 3 жыл бұрын

I feel so confused. I think I need to read more. What books do you recommend for a beginner artist?

@hazard5768 3 жыл бұрын

I would be interested as to how you feel things like the song "this is America" fits into all this. Where there is a message; unapologetically so put into an artform. If I understand Marshall correctly I assume it would follow didacticism BUT is that really a bad thing? Didacticism could just as easily be a conversation starter no? Thanks for the episode guys, lots to think about namely in keeping your art in integrity.

@hazard5768 3 жыл бұрын

@@Edinburgh1000 Interesting. Due to how powerfully the arts are at sending a message I've always separated them into two different categories. -The art for entertainment/wanting to make it. -The art used for a 'purpose' as in a political agenda or an important message like the example I listed above.. I had no idea people considered the latter such a negative thing.. In my case I thought the "This is America" was a good, non violent way to start a conversation between people about something the artist feels is wrong. Thanks for the reply, definitely something I'm gonna think about more.

@friendfortheartists Жыл бұрын

As a person, reacting to your narration, I can't help but just wonder. I've been lucky to have those Rockwell moments as well as the dream presented by Kinkade. I've produced Ocean style airbrush themes and admittedly they didn't stay on hnagers more than 2 hours. I did make them for money but that wasn't the top reason I made them. I made them because the colors were amazing. The contrasts were beautiful even down to the silhouettes of dolphins. I don't think Kinkade started to paint those paintings for money. It was what he discovered with the colors. When he lost that he went for the money and sold out exactly as he said. Rockwell's change was due to politics of his time. We went from an ideal to Eisenhauer to the sixties. Media exposed us to new truths. The good was becoming evil and the evil was doing good.

@z1522 Жыл бұрын

Mannerism sums up too much of contemporary art, including currently popular portrait artists - as soon as the artist makes the work reflect themselves, ahead of the subject, vanity and ego take over, and indirectly insult the person being portrayed. Dali, Picasso, suffered from this in their works, but I believe all sincere portrait artists need to subsume their own identity, in pursuit of a likeness that can stand the test of time, without worrying if their own name is remembered.

@RhysGilo 3 жыл бұрын

Maybe it's because I'm not from America, but I don't feel put off by the work of Thomas Kinkade at all, although it's very samey. I know you mentioned that you only started to dislike his work/ not appreciate it as much when you matured and enriched yourself with other artists, however, for me, I don't see what is inherently wrong with his artwork. Sure it was made to please the masses, but to be honest, when I look a lot of famous Instagram artists etc, I don't see anything different.(though I will refrain from naming any) Of course, the level of success/audience may be vastly different, but the overall idea of feeding of one's fanbase doesn't seem too far off from pandering, especially with things like Patreon etc. Though, in my eyes, I don't see this as a problem, as people probably enjoy creating art this way despite what other 'real' artists may say. In the end, artists/art critics themselves/ourselves can't dictate what art should be, as we all have different aesthetic preferences.

@carlosroo5460 3 жыл бұрын

I'm seeing some of Kinkade's works, I like his overall composition, but I don't like the color or the lighting of some of the images, i just can pinpoint the issue with me.

@Stettafire 3 жыл бұрын

@@carlosroo5460 I think there are aspects I like. But the faces remind me of Noddy, in a bad way. Bright red noses and bright red cheeks. Makes me cringe. If it weren't for that, I think it would be quite pleasant.

@Ninjashifter 2 жыл бұрын

Does fanart fall under the purview of sentimentality? Is it a cheap trick to pull on the heart strings of the fans of an existing work?

@christopherstacy9895 16 күн бұрын

Thomas Kincaid His life is a great lesson to artists. I genuinely believe that pandering is what killed him. He suffered from alcoholism. Paint with James gurney and Frank Frazetta early on I think seeing how his colleagues had had real “”real art” Made him depressed I’m thankful for the work that he made because it’s a Bridge For example, my grandma had a Gateway painted by Thomas Cade framed on the wall She wouldn’t understand the nuance of a bureau painting versus something out of the Hudson River school. She just knew that this gate looks like one of the most beautiful places nearby. Funny enough, she never bought any of his cottages

@CuriousTrotter 3 жыл бұрын

Notification gang!!

@KGS59 3 жыл бұрын

How many of the world's most thought of/highly valued artists pumped out portraits in the hundreds in order to earn a living? Can't both be done, commercial, and for the sake of art?

@aretiredsubberl7036 2 жыл бұрын

I honestly don't think pandering is really a sin. When you come to think of it, it's simply a product of capitalism. It's even less of a sin if the artist enjoys doing that, the art itself or making money off of it.

@remogiancola832 3 жыл бұрын

Have you ever discussed what art is? It might be a good idea for a philosophy episode.

@debilita9999 3 жыл бұрын

I agree with Stan on topic of Kinkade. He seems liek a good businessman.

@karnageproductions9994 3 жыл бұрын

I love how Marshal is always waiting on Proko. Proko get your stuff in order here.

@janpur4343 3 жыл бұрын

love the podcast. lot of good thought flow very entertaining and lot of things to think about. I would love to hear tho what you think about topic "Art for the Artists". and put yourself in a shoes of non-artist (who don't care about "interesting brush strokes" or anything related to process of creating. and not thus art lovers who pretend that they got it just to not look ignorant about it) . and how lot of "Art" would stand the test without artists name behind it, like for example van Gogh paintings whos let's be honest lack pretty much in every fundamental. and what sugarcoating towards artists does to art as a product. which can lead to mass product of let's say low quality art made by sugarcoating encouraged wanabe artists. what we can witness a lot of Instagram artists who could care less about learning craft as long they can promote them self and feed the Algorithm Daemon.

@protanomania7284 2 жыл бұрын

i know it's a bit late.. but the threats surrounding the Kinkade show probably had more to do with TK's greater life's work outside of painting. it's pretty dark.

@darkodosen1025 3 жыл бұрын

I love how at the start of the video Marshall's every other word is "empire". So funny XD

@jeffhreid 3 жыл бұрын

Thomas Kincade’s work is romantic in much of the same way as pre raphaelites painted. Remember William-Adolphe Bouguereau and Norman Rockwell we’re both looked down on as plebeian and beneath contempt

@oxibound5945 3 жыл бұрын

I don't get it. How is Kinkade and Rockwell making candy? And how is Rembrandt mash potatoing people? I just don't get it. Can someone explain it to me a little bit? So how can we separate good art and great art? Is it because they're doing what people like and not what they wanna do?

@Sky-de7oy 3 жыл бұрын

I start grinning before i even start the video because i already expect Marshal messing around at the start

@zebposada 3 жыл бұрын

I love Kinkade's work. Don't understand why the bashing. Maybe I won't like it that much as my eye evolves.

@BetinaLundkaerJensenartist 3 жыл бұрын

"The Day After Tomorrow" (maybe?)

@karij8113 3 жыл бұрын

Yes!! My husband and I love ‘The Day After Tomorrow’, but dislike the strong global warming sermon within it. The remake of ‘The Day the Earth Stood Still’ with Keanu Reeves also preaches along a similar vein. I get that we have got to be good stewards of this planet, but I want to escape that messaging in my entertainment since we get bombarded so much in our day to day lives with it.

@13igorsm 3 жыл бұрын

Thank god proko we have proko's more objetivist leens in this episode. Is easy to get lost in the abstract denominations. I go as far to say that the sins are very debetable.

@TarugoTaino 3 жыл бұрын

The two of you always have great points of view and look at the artists' (and students') journey from thoughtful and experienced perspectives... That said, I'm kind of surprised to hear "punch up don't kick down" used with such insightful reverence in the same episode that you try to divorce art (perhaps due to a presumed capital A?) from it's time tested means of speaking truth to power. Hell, even the reference to Norman Rockwell's darker work could be viewed as "preaching", no? Am I missing something? Or maybe I'm over personalizing.... aren't the arts, throughout global history, constantly used as moral teaching tools, coping mechanisms and statements about our world?... While still being entertaining? Or are we making some separate distinction here that I'm not seeing? I know I'm talking in extremes but this seemed to be the one stumbling block that didn't even seem to be given a counter (or virtue) and instead the assessment came off as one-sided. Just curious... Still enjoy the show, though.

@zychios0078 3 жыл бұрын

Hi there ! I'm not an English speaker by birth, so I still not understand what "pandering" means. Could somebody help me for this one ? Thank you very much ^^

@Stettafire 3 жыл бұрын

It may help by sharing with you other words and phrases with similar meanings (because its hard to explain, sorry, I'm trying my best!) - Boot-licking - Appeasement - Selling out - Ignorong your principals and morals in favour of some kind of reward (be it monetary or something else) - Someone "pandering" to the boss, might be a "yesman" just looking to get a promotion. - Acting like a dog seeking affection by any means necessary

@aileen_7292 2 жыл бұрын

Timestamps for myself~ 33:00 49:40

@lulamidgeable 3 жыл бұрын

I've got to watch Karl Kopinski's vids - he's really funny!

@IraMishchuk 3 жыл бұрын

Hmmm... I like Thomas Kinkade's landscapes and cottage life very much but hate the people that he draws. In Norman Rockwell, I like people portraits so much! ^_^

@loneylowf8876 3 жыл бұрын

would didacticism(?) have anything to do with virtue, as in, the moral of the story being a tool to make the creator look like a better, more virtuous person?

@SuperFcsmith 6 ай бұрын

The movie that stands out for me is ‘The Green Mile’. Here’s a movie of five men convicted of murder in suspicious trails. And as each is going to the electric chair, one takes way to long to die, another is such a gentle man he befriends a mouse in his cell. Another is black and is a healer falsely convicted. This was a anti death penalty agenda movie, but still a pretty good movie.