Apart from the simple "gets you from one place to another" kind of importance, I believe that it has one other important use in architecture. Deterrence. Many of the liminal spaces shown are admired from afar, yes, but many people would not venture there. The feelings of nostalgia and unease would prevent people from wandering in places that were never meant to be used after a certain time. Hell, some spaces in modern shopping centres (malls) can be classified as subtle deterrents, like the halls that house the fire exit. These places would usually stay timeless, and have the aesthetic of being foreboding unless otherwise needed, in the case of a fire or major evacuation. If a building was designed to have liminal spaces be used as a deterrent, it could be better security than a lock and key in some circumstances.

I agree with Barking. If anything, they're used to keep you moving so less ppl loiter.

Honestly, I think the word "liminal" is pretty much misused when only seen as something "uncanny". Liminal - per definition of Victor Turner - only describes the state of ambiguity during the phase between separation from and reconnection to the predominant social norms/conventions/culture. But only when being outside this framework (mentally and/or physically), completely new productive ideas can emerge. So any space that inherently makes this possible is a liminal space. Your home, a train station, a café, a city district, mountain or whatever. And what we really learn here is that some people simply feel uncomfortable with ambiguity. But for anyone with at least a spark of creativity this is just paradise - a room to take a deep breath and enjoy doing stuff, trying new things etc. Restored ruins, space for any kinds of sports (skating, freerunning or whatever), places for art workshops, botanical gardens, a pillow corner - you can turn a so-called liminal space in pretty much anything you want. So yeah, they are important to architecture because they simply represent highly unconstrained potential, which became and still becomes less and less in the urban realm. Cheers

The threshold to carry over is synonymous with liminal and important. The roots of these word are telling if one thinks of architecture as the father of art. These spaces are like the negative space in a painting. The pause between notes. The blinking of an eye on a journey. How could they be removed and not create total chaos?

I'd hypothesize that because of the kind of discomforting or dissociative state of liminal spaces, it attracts people who deal with dissociative symptoms on an unconscious level. In a way, they are a reflection of society's habit of suppressing thoughts, expressions, psychic struggles. Since these spaces became more apparent in the 80s and 90s, we have also experienced the big boom of the economy, shifting into late-capitalism, where mental illness is now more prevalent than ever before.

Yes I agree. It has bugged me that the term liminal space was being applied to these images of disused or discarded spaces/objects. The traditional use of liminal space captures the idea that it anticipatory place, and what is on the other side could just as easily be positive/exciting/pleasurable as negative/horrific/melancholic. I also quite like the term uncanny valley for images of familiar yet disused and decrepit. It much better reflects that feeling of unease that is being evoked.

I actually clicked on the video thinking that it was about liminality in the anthropological sense, so I was puzzled as well by the examples and explanation presented.

*weird places

Or just 'abandoned spaces'

@@hueylong7989 not necessarily abandoned, just mismatched with the amount or kind of people who are there. If you saw a picture of a walmart parking lot at 2:00 am, crowded with people in suits, but no cars, it would have a similar effect to a mall without the crowd.

Spaces just get in the way.

@BanquetOfTheLeviathan engineers ain't shit, it's the builders that make it work

@@arccv It takes a village. As long as everyone does their job and does it properly, it doesn't matter.

@BanquetOfTheLeviathan engineer response

@BanquetOfTheLeviathan ​I implore you to find a space made by an engineer alone vs a space designed by an architect and tell me which one is more pleasing to be in.

Good word! Thanks for sharing!

Very much so. I’d not call a Chuck E. Cheese liminal by any means, nor a classroom or the store part of a mall, though I suppose the arcade does qualify as it’s merely a means to get from store to store, but in the last year they have all been so empty and ghostlike. You almost expect tumbleweeds.

Absolutely. Liminal spaces are transitional, often anticipatory, spaces. What's on the other side could be positive or negative. I feel like liminal space needs to be reclaimed from the current usage that only applies a negative meaning to the space.

Kenopsia better describes common motives for noticing liminal space. As relationship motivated creatures, we humans are less interested in the liminality of a space than we are in the human connections we hope once were there. Modern architecture likes to leverage this desire for human connection by strategically placing human comforts like park benches or tables in liminal spaces to draw people through them. Often these places are underused and neglected because they are placed more to evoke kenopsia than to make a pleasant space to eat or talk with a friend. Garden magazines are filled with kenopsia evoking ornaments like cute benches and gazebos. Nostalgia is wonderful when remembering places we made connections, but what about places that may have never been used? When we prepare excess space for ourselves that never gets used, it feels like a tragedy. The manga "Blame!" showcases this tragedy with a never ending city that builds itself while seeking to destroy the humans that might otherwise inhabit the space. Instead of wise, excess quickly grows insidious.

@Kevin L Because the word predates their obsession. Liminal spaces were already a thing, and have very peculiar properties. For example, the strange tendency of people to pick liminal spaces to hold conversations, even though that's almost always disruptive. (stopping for conversation on stairways, in doorways, blocking hallways, etc). So the connection of liminality with absence of human activity is, uh, peculiar, since the exact opposite is the normal course of affairs. Liminal spaces form boundaries between places where activity takes place, but inexorably draw people to congregate. Fricken weird, but also hard to talk about if you use liminal space to mean an empty conference room. A thing it does not mean. Pick a different word. Edit: not to say that an empty conference room cannot have the quality of liminality, in a metaphorical sense. But it isn't itself a liminal space. So I want to know what boundary is that space and time creating? Is it the transition between two events? Because certainly I've seen the peculiar attraction people have to congregating in a conference room between speakers, again, not empty, because people just won't stay away from liminal spaces. What I'm getting at is if you can't answer the question "what threshold is being (re)presented by this space" then it isn't liminal.

This needs to be a worldwide movement tbh, there needs to be more art in the world.

Art can give places life and history to establish some trace of human context that a sterile space doesn't have

@@UNSCPILOT if every space in the world becomes artsy then the new "sterile" will be artsy areas. If everyone's super, no one really is.

@@joanboring26 well, ok, fair. Utilitarian areas have their use and make a decent contrast, I just find things lean too heavily on the bland utility, I suppose what I mean to say is that it would be nice to have more of a balance of both. I work in retail so I have a bit of a like/hate relationship with the "hyper utilitarian warehouse with checkouts" thing that most stores seem to have here and it's making me a bit biased

@@UNSCPILOT Aye, fair enough.

The best thing about powerfully liminal spaces is that kenopsia happens even while people are still around. The “architectural and cultural hurr durr” is removed, magnifying anything that happens and making those memories more defined. Only by minimising the everpresent can we truly appreciate the fleeting. You can’t remember the people and what you did with them, if your attention was forcibly taken by the wood, stone, brick and metal.

I'm sorry but the fact that you've been working nights as a security guard for the past 7 years and the fact that the Five Nights At Freddy's franchise is also 7 years old struck me as an odd coincindence

I used to love go out after midnight to get this feeling.

Nice final line, I get it.

I'm working as a janitor, so I can relate to that feeling. Been to lots of places that go from bustling to empty. And then I turn off the lights and walk away.

This reminds me of what it was like in the early weeks of lockdown. Pretty much everybody stayed at home, so the streets and shops were almost devoid of people, yet were still open. Kinda spooky.

What you just described is specifically one of the major reasons why I feel like Forza Horizon 3 was more fun than any of the games in the franchise that came after it. There were just enough weird glitches you could exploit to go places you’re not supposed to be able to go, and explore really weird spaces and see how far you can go before you find the invisible line where the ground is no longer solid and you fall through the map. There was a way to trick the game into letting you drive underwater, unlocking vast lakebeds to reach high speeds on and access mountains you normally can’t. There was even a fence you could glitch through and access an empty lake with banked edges that looks like an abandoned old NASCAR track. Plus just the wild view of the inside of a mountain, the tops of skyscrapers you can creatively land on… it made exploring the map a challenge and it was great! The newer games got too good at preventing players from doing that, and I think it detracted from the fun a little bit.

I agree.

Privacy in pubic. I like to go for walks at night for the same reason.

Same.

Same. One of my very first jobs was at a mall, I always enjoyed the emptiness of the place after hours. As a stagehand/rigger today, I’m frequently working inside empty stadiums, theaters and other concert venues. They feel like completely different places with and without the people. One thing that I always found a bit creepy are theater “ghost lights”, the single light bulb on a stand that’s placed center stage when theaters go dark. Something about that solitary light in a vast, dark building always unnerves me. The empty hotel convention halls on corporate gigs can evoke strange feelings sometimes too.

Nicely described.

It’s not just western countries. Chinese ghost towns or soviet Khrushchyovkas fall into those categories too

I have always gravitated towards pre-WWII architecture. I've always found architecture from the 1960s onward really depressing. Even as a kid. There are specific architects who've made some interesting modern buildings or homes since, but it's _very_ hit or miss for me. The 70s and 80s were the worst.

I'm neutral on your pfp

@@Meladjusted The 70's-80's were a mixed bag. They brought about Earth homes, solar powered homes, better insulation etc. so there was some improvement structurally but aesthetically not so much. Personally I'm a fan of Victorian and Art Deco/Nouveau Architecture.

@@andreidanilov9925 Absolutely the post-soviet countries are riddled with abandoned architecture

I was looking for this comment

Or Masterclass of capitalism... bloody remedy.

I instantly thought of Superliminal and The Stanley Parable. But sure, control too.

Actual brutalist buildings with those large hallways are weird when empty specially at night, it's creepy. It's so sterile and empty by themselves, even places that actually are used. @@Tester-sh1mn Not sure if you're talking just about the game, but irl Communists were very fond of brutalism. Likely because they were cheapskates and then said it was the future or that their ideal Soviet Man was to be something a inhuman roboto, or whatever excuse they made not paint and make proper buildings. But it was very prominent in the URSS up until the 90s.

@@zekiz774 This

That is an amazing compliment. Thank you!

Hey i know you i watched one of your planet coaster video once

I’m all excited to see Silvarret here - I love his videos, so interesting and relaxing at the same time. Now I’m even more excited to watch this.

me too

Personally disagreeing

That really was horrific. I'm still seeing it in my minds eye and fear my dreams tonight.

I looked away for a second, looked back expecting to see abandoned buildings and had the scare of my life.

can you give the timestamp of said clip?

@@hede638 1:51

Omg so i am not wrong about how i used to feel in my school auditorium, it is neon green and i used feel this euphoric feeling in one particular corner ( left ) of the space i felt small and insignificant and how huge the space was through the eyes pf a kindergarten kid.

HAHAHA YOU MEAN THAT ONE WITH THE FLYING 🍑🍑🍑???? HAHAHAHAHA

'Langoliers' was definitely Stephen King evoking the modern concept of liminal space (and using it as a plot point in fact) decades before its time. It's quite an interesting thing. I especially like the end of the story, when they arrive to another version of the airport that also appears abandoned - the way that's resolved represents really well the dual meaning of 'liminal space' - on the one hand uncanny, unsettling, but on the other hand anticipatory, acting as a threshold.

I'm pretty neutral when it come to your pfp

@@KillahMate the fact that the characters being out of step with the flow of time was also a key plot point evokes liminality too - an effect of this that the characters felt besides just being alone in what should be a bustling airport was that there was a pervasive staleness. stale air, stale food in vending machines and food courts, etc. it sounds a lot like his way of reframing exhaustion with these places.

You just unlocked a memory from my childhood. I vaguely remembet some fleeting scenes from that movie

That’s interesting. Would you please share one? It’s probably more interesting than real life. 🌟

Yeah i have lots of dreams where I'm trapped in some kind of liminal space, most often weird, completely fictitious rooms in my own house that confuse me profoundly

@@spencerricketts8025 i bet that make a good short story. I know I’d read it.

Makes sense. The most awe-inspiring, and horrifying liminal space I’ve ever been in because of a dream was a massive, underground, multi-level concrete tunnel system. I would say that it was somewhere between a parking garage and a highway in a tunnel, on a scale similar to the Cheyenne Mountain Complex or the underground storm tunnels in Japan. There were ramps that were all separated from each other, and it was dimly lit with cool green light, and it was massive- four layers deep. I was a passenger in the family car, which meant there was a juxtaposition between the warm car interior and the novelty of the strange, swallowing structure I was in. You could only go 20mph before needing to turn a tight corner at the end of the long slope, and the kicker was that the ramps only went down. If you wanted to go back up, you had to drive into one of any series of car-sized elevators that only went up to a specific level (several elevators that only went up one level, several that only went up 2, etc.). So far, that’s been my favorite dreamscape liminal space, because it was both an exercise in admiring what people could build, given enough time and resources, and an exercise in complaining about how stupid it was for an infrastructure system to rely solely on elevators for back-to-surface transport, because “what if an emergency happened, these elevators are so stupidly designed.”

@@andreabutitsruth I love this! What would Jung say…❤️

LOL!!!!

...the monster

the books are certainly in the bookshelf

Glad you enjoy it!!

I really like your channel's design!

or "The Stanley Parable" another Source Engine game.

Source engine in general is mainly what drives my interest in the whole liminal space aesthetic.

@@jstn9914 yeah the source engine is amazingly off, it doesnt feel like just another game engine, nor a depiction of real life. It's atmosphere feels so good as it brings out how devoid of people it is. Empty garry's mod servers, alone on tf2's maps just exploring, portal's test chambers when glados isnt talking, and half life 2's maps empty and with sound design so amazing you feel as if its real and completely devoid of life other than you and this alien threat.

I’ve always wanted to go seems surreal

Glad you enjoyed it!

This! I only get a feeling of giddiness when thinking about liminal spaces. Not much negativity. I guess being an extreme introvert is a vastly different human experience than others'.

Just taking back and listening to the hum of the world is Interesting

Thank you for sharing.

I’m really curious to find out more about this city, do you remember where it was or some other details? Thanks :)

They don't really have architects, they have franchise equipment and whatever prefab building a construction company threw together. Even money on the latter being a Chinese restaurant, more traditional pizzeria, or an other place that serves food without specific installations.

Or maybe someone that can see through this collegiate BS.

@@vipermad358 i bet you don't vaccinate your kids

@Kevin L …very well observed and stated (in my humble opinion) 👍

@Kevin L THAT IS THE POINT DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

pretty good expression of my doubts about the conventional architecture of the 20th and 21st century. Another component is utilitarianism. Other visions of architecture were attempting, utopian villages drawing from the round troglodyte house rather than the basic cube, but in my experience, architects and architecture students tend to regard those things as frivolous: lacking in practicality. Such criticisms aren't necessarily unfounded: Gaudi's apartments are suited exclusively to a wealthy upper class that can afford to have all its furniture custom made. So the form of utopian architecture that was put on a pedestal, imitated and emptied of its substance was the one that lends itself to industrial techniques of mass production. cubes of glass and concrete - concessions were made to improve its comfort and usability - while gradually erasing the utopianism that made brutalism admirable, but without questioning the central conceit of usability above all else . The issue is that we are not utilitarian animals: we are messy and emotional and practicality while important is not all that matters to us. But while we are not utilitarian, capitalism is: using anything but steel, and concrete is needlessly costly when massive economies of scale have been achieved with these materials. Wasting space is unthinkable when cities are saturated. As a result contemporary architect struggle to find space for humans to inhabit in a productivist framework they can rarely, if ever, escape. As a result we have an architecture that is unobtrusively authoritarian, because how can mass production be elitist? The gold and ostentation has been hidden inside exclusive private places while glass gives an air of accessibility to financial institutions. and the quasi socialism of brutalist apartment projects? they've been sanded down along the concrete, which has been made to look like marble. As for liminal spaces, (edit: in this case, I mean the semi hostile points of passage that are often carved out of the residual spaces between the locations that had actual thought and care put into them) they are the demonstration that the practicality of modern architecture might be more suited for the flow of production and money rather than for actual people.

One of the most thought provoking comments I have read on YT.

Thank you for sharing your view. As a design student from a college with bauhaus history, this really resonates with me. To me incorporating natural elements in the things we create shows a form of understanding where we come from, it's a direct connection to the resources of life, and also their beauty. This usually gives a feeling of universal comfort and can tell you a lot about a culture, from small objects to the architecture of entire settlements. Modern design on the other hand seems like a blank slate to me, it gives you nothing and tells you nothing - except that it functions. As soon as something modernist looses it's function, it looses it's value. It works great for technology, when the form and look have to adapt to new inventions and ideas, but entire environments that tell me nothing and give me less character than a gray suit or a prison cell just give me a feeling of disorientation and having no real purpose. I think that this all definately has a societal impact, since as humans we also build ther world we live in and live by.

@@MewMewYu1 I was interested in the idea of ''ruin value'' (Ruinenwert) but when I talked about that I was connected with right wing politics and conservatism, because it was an idea of Nazi architect Albert Speer. And any time I criticize the alienating aspects of modernism, the easiest attack always is that you are conservative, while actually I am a left wing progressive. However, it could very well be that in a world that feels alien, people become right wing and conservative to create a world that is less ''liminal.'' Nationalism is one way to create a home and feel safe, but I hate that. I want art and design to ''disturb the comfortable and to comfort the disturbed''. I just think that the second part, to comfort the disturbed, should be very important. To convince my fellow progressives that their esthetic is not helping their social ideals, just pointing this out doesn't seem to work. They keep building things that people hate and they are very proud of that. Maybe it can be connected to ecology and circularity: you want repair an old house or and old vase because it is beautiful, but a modern thing you throw away easily. In architecture sometimes buildings are designed ''circular'' in the sense that they are so anonymous that they can be used in many different ways, as offices or houses. But the result is the opposite because people only want to preserve something beautiful, something that has a specific identity. For instance I know a church converted to apartments. Very hard to do, but people do it because the building is worth preserving. In ecology conservatism is anyway more easily seen as progressive (local production, preserve forests etcetera).

@@pietervoogt Hiya, there; I know _exactly_ what you mean, when arguing about the ugliness of modern architecture, and being called "reactionary" for it. (I kinda chalk that one up to some people wanting "progressive" to be an exclusive club for the "cool people," but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.) Don't let it get you down, my friend. Can I give you a bit of advice, though? About the whole "art & design should disturb the comfortable, and to comfort the disturbed" thing... It may sound noble, but that sentiment leads to a dead-end, in both disciplines. As someone who designs/installs products for a living, then goes home to draw/paint pictures as a way to relax, there are three lessons I've learned. 1) Don't think about "your audience"-- consider the user, if you're a designer; or viewer, if you're an artist; or reader, if you're an author, or listener, if you're a musician. Crowds come-'n-go, but it's the individual that remembers. 2) Don't make assumptions about that individual. You might think you know them, but you really don't. 3) Don't try to impress them, scold them, scare them, or seduce them. Just tell them the truth of how it was for you. Anyways, that's all I got. All the best, my friend.

Shane, that’s exactly how I felt about this video, too. I noticed, and had an impression about these spaces, but couldn’t articulate my impressions. After looking up the term, I now realize that “liminality” is always all around us in terms of physical, societal, cultural, positional, and relational existence. This video really was a (minds) eye-opener 👍

Glad you like them!

Glad you found it too! Welcome!

The problem though is that the future eventually has to arrive.

The game Control made me feel that way, a lot. Firstly, much of it is inside an office building which all looks incredibly similar. It activates the part of my brain that says "this is all generic, pay attention to where you're headed and going". Secondly, the layout of the maps shifts constantly. So all of my "pay attention because there aren't landmarks" goes out the window. I could only play for a few hours before my brain got exhausted from it all. It might not be quite what you're describing, but I was extremely uneasy throughout

@@dfunited1 All of this makes the part where The Oldest House finally works _with_ you so empowering.

Thank you! Glad to meet you!

I think in video-games the feeling would depend on more than just the location but also the type of gameplay. A frenetic shooter with high movement speed and easy to follow markers for goals will rob most of the creepiness of whatever the place it is set in. The player needs to be moved to "stop and smell the roses" or in this case "look around and dread the eerie"

@@BlueSun_ lucky that i'm doing a horror game, then ;)

@@MidnightSt Remedy's _CONTROL_ is a must-play for you then. The main character of this GOTY-nomination is The Oldest House, the game's setting.

@@kjj26k already playing it, but thanks

@@MidnightSt Have fun!

What’s the third space?

@@johannypaulino2953 there are a few theory and ideas behind the term "third space" or "third place. I use the idea as presented by Ray Oldenburg, that the 1st place is your home, the 2nd place your work, and the third is, in effect, communal gathering places, such as a mall, library, etc. The reduction of so many third spaces nowadays is highly detrimental to our overall individual and community well being. Here is a link to a short video made by Ray: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nsphks1_rtSRoas.html

@@Colorcrayons thank you. That’s fascinating. Have a nice weekend! ❤️

That is also true.

Hahaha!! I noticed that, too 😬 I’ve sported a mustache since high school (I’m 68 years old) and I often lapse in keeping mine symmetrical. I chuckle in embarrassment when I look in the mirror and ‘discovered’ my gross oversight 😅😂🤣🤪

Wow, that's great! Thank you for the kind words and glad you're enjoying the videos.

Interesting, tell me more!

Would love to know the name of this school or some artists, google is failing me

@@kismet1656 Vilhelm Hammershøi is one but there are many lesser known painters.

FUCK!! Why did you make me go back and look at that!??!?!!

@@insanejughead If I have to look at it, you have to look at it. Them's the rules.

The books are in their non-place.

I love Borges!

Thanks for watching. I agree and address that in the video with "However, liminal as used today on the internet is something a little different and more specific." It's a broad term that some people use in very specific ways The course of the video goes from its general use in architecture, to how people are using it more specifically than that in other contexts, then gives an architectural take on the more specific use. I also offer other architectural terms like "terrain vague" or "junkspace" that have been used in the past to describe these current use of the term liminal.

Yes the current usage is really an incorrect application of the term. By focusing only on the feeling of unease these images provoke, it ignores that as you move through liminal spaces what is on the other side could as easily be positive as it is negative. If we are only looking at formerly bustling spaces that are now void of life or activity and seem disquieting because of that absense, then uncanny valley or junkspace better captures that.