So he basically made another painting to prove his case in court? WOW.
@hieutruong74564 жыл бұрын
Jyotsna S absolute madlad
@brentbottoms28764 жыл бұрын
save his life*
@chaostrocio11564 жыл бұрын
Brutal
@raf015_24 жыл бұрын
He's not the only one that did it. Margaret Keane had to paint in front of the court to prove that she was the real artist and not her husband.
@mehmoodbutt87863 жыл бұрын
@@raf015_2 seriously? He husband took the credit? Sad for her!
@Coral888994 жыл бұрын
This needs to be made into a movie, its so god damn interesting.
@juanmanuelpenaloza92644 жыл бұрын
The notoriety is on Wolf of Wall Street levels
@elenichamou17914 жыл бұрын
watch white collar!
@terrorfire85054 жыл бұрын
Ikr
@kuronosan4 жыл бұрын
How to Steal a Million will suffice.
@theusorelha4 жыл бұрын
@@juanmanuelpenaloza9264 yeah, its like a mix between Wolf of Wall Street and Catch Me If You Can
@mk_rexx4 жыл бұрын
Him: The paintings are fake, I faked them. People: No way the paintings are fake! You're faking it!
@Acroflame4 жыл бұрын
Well the thing is he might just be saying that because it would save his life
@l.pietrobon39254 жыл бұрын
- You're in love with her! - Yes... - Admit it!
@arianagandhi76344 жыл бұрын
@@l.pietrobon3925 I knew it!
@user-ei2nh7tj3f4 жыл бұрын
He's right he faked it
@SaretGnasoh4 жыл бұрын
lol
@Dylan-xl9gp4 жыл бұрын
Let’s pay respect to the fact that this man forged painting because he was salty that his own couldn’t make it.
@julianpieper71254 жыл бұрын
Dylan he could have also become a fascist leader so we got lucky this time
@Dylan-xl9gp4 жыл бұрын
F
@jm72154 жыл бұрын
F
@bananaforscale12834 жыл бұрын
Um. No? That's the reason why people do frauds.
@swarnavasengupta694 жыл бұрын
F
@racoonlittle16794 жыл бұрын
When your forgery is so good your forgery gets forged.
@fredrikaslund4984 жыл бұрын
nice joke
@kirby71864 жыл бұрын
*s t o n k s*
@suryokai3134 жыл бұрын
B Y Y O U R O W N S O N
@anwitadasgupta9134 жыл бұрын
Damn 😂😂😂
@neveniusvondubowatz77054 жыл бұрын
So... the battle at Valley Forge is a forgery? ;)
@thatgrrrrrl4 жыл бұрын
But did noone wonder how he was suddenly popping up with all these old paintings that noone ever saw before??
@axelpatrickb.pingol32284 жыл бұрын
If they are the lost art pieces of great masters, who can wonder otherwise?
@jabir57684 жыл бұрын
he went trough art dealers they said, so no one knew it was all from him I guess ?
@tonyantonissen45384 жыл бұрын
we are talking about the 1940's here.
@omri93254 жыл бұрын
Social media didn't exist back then. You couldn't tell if an art piece is from a secret private collection.
@anandasanyal95144 жыл бұрын
He actually came up with a story that, he found those paintings in an old castle. The particular painting he sold to Goering, he made a story that one lady sold that to him. A very interesting life.
@s29nv1sr14 жыл бұрын
You have to admit forgers (forgery artists - I don’t know the correct word) deserve some kind of recognition. It takes a lot of skill to be able to copy something so well that it’s hard to tell the original from the duplicate. Not to mention that forgers often copy things with drastically different styles, with just the same amount of quality between the two. Forgery is an art all on it’s own.
@axelpatrickb.pingol32284 жыл бұрын
Not really. Unless it was done with no criminal intent, it is a felony designed to deceive anyone (no matter if they deserve it or not)...
@s29nv1sr14 жыл бұрын
Ohlourdes Padua True, but I’m not saying people SHOULD forge things. However, you have to admit it is admirable how much skill it takes to forge something almost perfectly. It takes loads of talent.
@axelpatrickb.pingol32284 жыл бұрын
@@s29nv1sr1 Still not a reason to admire them. For as long as the intent is deception, it is a crime nobody should emulate...
@DrPumpkinz4 жыл бұрын
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 The skill is admirable. Not the goal.
@hkr6674 жыл бұрын
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Unfortunately crime is often romanticized. Until they become victim of a fraud, then suddenly they are criminals that should be hanged.
@ligoboijk3454 жыл бұрын
His forgery was so good even after confessing people didn’t believe it.true mad lad
@elainegoates97923 жыл бұрын
then he said "I fooled the natzis" and his works were forged
@maximhollandnederlandthene76403 жыл бұрын
The compositions weren't so good. Unbelievable people believed they were originals.
@warrenkeystone51954 жыл бұрын
The Nazis after buying the paintings: *We've been tricked, we've been backstabbed, and we've quite possibly been, bamboozled*
@brendanpramsey4 жыл бұрын
" They played us like a darn fiddle"
@HeisenMannj4 жыл бұрын
Bamboozled LoL 😂
@lordofthechinesebiscuit84364 жыл бұрын
I see the people at TED-Ed are cultured.
@arceusarcer15134 жыл бұрын
@@lordofthechinesebiscuit8436 yes they very much are nowadays...
@operandwriter4 жыл бұрын
We've been smeckledorfed!
@CDio-vr3bx3 жыл бұрын
“Dad look at my art.” “Son that’s my art why’d you forge it” “I learned from the best” Tears rolling down “You sure did my son”
@shubhroy79602 жыл бұрын
Underrated comment
@ctleans63264 жыл бұрын
"I forged priceless paintings." "You're a bad person." "They were bought by Nazis." "You're a good person."
@shreeyamittal17713 жыл бұрын
Underrated🤣
@anoutdatedmeme63583 жыл бұрын
everyone hates Nazis lol
@JastwatchingYT2 жыл бұрын
@@anoutdatedmeme6358 and vice versa
@raspberrycrowns94942 жыл бұрын
@@anoutdatedmeme6358 good.
@warrenkeystone51954 жыл бұрын
Van Meegeren after none of his original paintings were a success: *I'm gonna do what's called a pro-gamer move*
@anuradha-wm7le4 жыл бұрын
Y this comment hav so many likes no comments
@maximhollandnederlandthene76403 жыл бұрын
His drawings of deers are sold a lot. They have made lots of copy prints of it in the Netherlands. He's only one of many artists who doesn't get rich by making his art. But he was very talented !
@deftash49644 жыл бұрын
His son forging his art is not really forgery, it's passing down the craft.
@ValGOPLock4 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately
@ddr14064 жыл бұрын
100th like🇩🇪
@CubyChrisAnimations2 жыл бұрын
If you're lying about the creator to gain a profit, it's a scam. Son or not.
@mewmew8932 Жыл бұрын
@@CubyChrisAnimations no balls
@theaslam97584 жыл бұрын
*when you copy the smartest kid in class on a test, and get higher marks than him*
@imperialeagle5643 жыл бұрын
Lol
@chanbricks44613 жыл бұрын
I've had that happen to me. My friend didn't do his homework, so he copy pasted mine and handed it in. He got more marks for the same thing than I did, even though he was three months late
@hi.2413 жыл бұрын
Same so my best friend copied my homework and I got a 70 while she got a 75-
@danyalshamsi11613 жыл бұрын
Lol, someone copied off me in a test, but ended up getting higher score than me. Why? Because I wrote my roll no. incorrectly in one of the papers. :P
@dudsduds76053 жыл бұрын
Then you became the representative for quiz bee
@cornerseeker91674 жыл бұрын
Identify theft is not a joke, Han! Millions of family suffer every year
@cristobalvalero63454 жыл бұрын
Corner Seeker slow clap
@abdimojo87944 жыл бұрын
I understood that reference 🛡 🇺🇸
@giornogiovanna20084 жыл бұрын
What is this a crossover episode !?
@ricardobautista-garcia84924 жыл бұрын
reference?
@SaturdayParker3 жыл бұрын
@@abdimojo8794 I understood THAT reference e
@johnjohn-62564 жыл бұрын
Forgery, in its own right, is art. Today, that would be labeled as institutional critique since it tackles the art world’s obsession on the old masters’ works.
@cv48094 жыл бұрын
I guess if I copy Einstein work I can also be recognized as a genius, creativity and originality are overrated anyways
@salenebrom64764 жыл бұрын
JOHN VISAYA 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@ardensetiawan3534 жыл бұрын
@@cv4809 If you direct copied his works, nobody would care because that's the very concept of printing press, but if you copy his works and add something of your own, then you might indeed be a genius or at least a smart person. Actually that's what researchers do every day.
@carstarsarstenstesenn4 жыл бұрын
Forgery is not an art. Recreating art is an art.
@chanbricks44613 жыл бұрын
@@cv4809 Being able to further research on an idea proposed by someone else is still work. I mean, Edison merely made the light bulb suitable for mass production, but we treat him like the creator of it
@TheHiroClaw1234 жыл бұрын
Vermeer's paintings: doesn't exist Meegeren: I'm about to start this man's whole career
@jakamaulana97904 жыл бұрын
According to him _" The fake is of far greater value. In attempts to be real, it's more real than the real thing."_ -Kaiki Deishu
@x--qz1fd3 жыл бұрын
Shiro emiya -
@AStrategyGameDev3 жыл бұрын
Probably the most impactful quote to come from that series :P
@x--qz1fd3 жыл бұрын
Monogatari fans
@jenw9804 жыл бұрын
ngl the lengths he went to and the effort he put in is pretty damn impressive
@stormchazer30684 жыл бұрын
It seems like TedEd really got interested in the Netherlands.
@Disneyfilmily4 жыл бұрын
I love it! I am from the Netherlands and Van Meegeren is not well known here!
@annamaura894 жыл бұрын
Just wish they would consult at least one dutch person for these videos to work on their pronunciation, its not that hard
@hkr6674 жыл бұрын
@@annamaura89 It is hard. It's not only knowing how to pronounce it, but unless you have learned to make certain sounds during childhood, it is physically impossible to replicate them.
@nocturnalanimals58844 жыл бұрын
annamaura89 it’s actually hard my parents lived in the netherlands for almost 30 years and they still don’t know it that well i was born there so i’m fluent
@Disneyfilmily4 жыл бұрын
@@annamaura89 especially our 'G' sound is impossible, so names like Van Gogh and Van Meegeren are bound to sound weird when pronounced by a non-native speaker
@danielschein68454 жыл бұрын
I love the way rhey explained away the forger's mistakes by claiming they were the master's early work - before he got good. When people really want to get conned they'll find a way.
@nhy1231234 жыл бұрын
The fact that he forged Vermeer was also highly poetic in a way, both artists were not well-recognised for their art during their lifetime, so it might be a fated coincidence (or perhaps, intentional) that van Meegeren forged his artwork.
@thekingofcool21054 жыл бұрын
Hollywood should make a film out of this story
@paris29934 жыл бұрын
the king of cool ....i think it's best if the Netherlands make it, in Dutch Lingua.
@PatrickStarForPresident4 жыл бұрын
Yeah,uit would be a great movie, but we but know that Hollywood wont make it, so we have to wait that the independient directors do that
@mellory23374 жыл бұрын
There is already a Dutch movie about him called 'Een echte Vermeer'( A real Vermeer).
@PatrickStarForPresident4 жыл бұрын
@@mellory2337 is an indie movie?
@uuhbsj2974 жыл бұрын
Am I the only admiring that the guy literally worked meticulously hard for 6 long years till he perfected his fake paintings?! That's perseverance and dedication for your job (for others' jobs😶) right there!!!
@divyadurairaj116210 ай бұрын
me too wonderful right
@lushbIood4 жыл бұрын
His "lack of talent" in his peer's eyes was actually the fuel that unlocked his real talent in his eye for detail and dealing the art.
@johancakep4 жыл бұрын
Abraham bredius: "I'm gonna help this man whole career" **after Vanmeegeren get caught** Abraham bredius : "I'm gonna ruin this man whole career."
@shoaibmms4 жыл бұрын
Am i the only one who thinks Mr. Bean did the best art forging in his movie ? 😂
@thesabre84584 жыл бұрын
YES
@endoetz4 жыл бұрын
but he used poster..
@dametrosd65934 жыл бұрын
Yesh on the Bean movie the art gallery 😂😂
@CatMaster900014 жыл бұрын
"It's a poster. =w= " "... It's a WHAT?!"
@CharmEng894 жыл бұрын
gosh that movie was so stressful for me to watch as a kid... 😂
@aadivrath24074 жыл бұрын
Really reminds me of Hardy Rodenstock (Meinhard Görke). He fooled the entire Wine world, by faking MILLIONS in supposingly antique wines, only for them to be cheap. Absolute MadLad, that one.
@vilelilman42524 жыл бұрын
Art ironically becomes the most valuable when the artist is dead. Typical artist: That’s not fair! Van Meegeren: Well alright. DEAD IT IS THEN.
@Chirp-chirp3 жыл бұрын
hahahahaah
@ilickcatnip4 жыл бұрын
Wonderful animations TedED! And when I say wonderful, they really create wonders! Lots of love and respect from India.🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
@maahirrahi34164 жыл бұрын
TED ed has taught me more about history than ap word history
@axelpatrickb.pingol32284 жыл бұрын
Unless you AP History is for a degree in History in college...
@blackmage12764 жыл бұрын
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 what?
@axelpatrickb.pingol32284 жыл бұрын
@@blackmage1276 These sorts of things are too niche for general history class. Nobody cares about some petty art forger when the average student has to cram in 5,000 years worth of world (Western) history in a few semesters. Same thing with mine, we generally don't care about the history of anything behind the Urals because we are already overwhelmed learning about the history of Asia which is lengthy all by itself...
@blackmage12764 жыл бұрын
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 I'm pretty sure the history on everything is super long
@axelpatrickb.pingol32284 жыл бұрын
@@blackmage1276 And I am telling you nobody is interested in all that...
@TheHiroClaw1234 жыл бұрын
Meegeren having to prove he's a master forger to live was an absolute win situation
@inte46914 жыл бұрын
1:51 oh no what did he do to the book
@scaredyghosts3 жыл бұрын
The greatest compliment a person could ever receive is when you forged a masterpiece-others find it hard to believe.
@darkcursing67774 жыл бұрын
Is funny how through his perfected forgerring technique that he himself might able to create an art of equal unique as other famous painting. Through his study and practice, he unbeknownst to him have learned how to create a painting as unique as other. Perhaps if he create same painting but a very different theme, he could become famous by it as Altered View Painting.
@maryambagha5974 жыл бұрын
Still amazed by the animation and information shown in these incredible videos!
@SnoopyDoofie4 жыл бұрын
Art expert: "It's authentic!" Reality: It's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy...
@phoebeahn89414 жыл бұрын
Honestly, forgery is like the best crime. You get all the money, none of the blood, and it takes actual artistic skill
@justyouraveragegamer87334 жыл бұрын
Nazis after finding out they were tricked: *this is a certified bruh moment*
@MohammadAshraf-mu5xl4 жыл бұрын
nobody: tedEd: wanna know how the nazis were tricked?
@MohammadAshraf-mu5xl4 жыл бұрын
thanks ted ed never got a like from you ever......am a fan
@dashcrowngd89544 жыл бұрын
yes
@subbaiahkasi63103 жыл бұрын
Heck yeah, I do!
@maximhollandnederlandthene76403 жыл бұрын
Because they were greedy bastards 😂
@connoreadie144 жыл бұрын
the animation in this video is so good
@crzy4u3864 жыл бұрын
TED keeps delivering with these animated stories. They’re so amazing!!
@diekje87284 жыл бұрын
When Göring was trialed, he was unmoved by everything the judges held against him. Until they told him his Vermeer was in fact a fake, it would be the only time Göring would show any emotion
@phoebefernando40914 жыл бұрын
this has got to be one of the most hilariously interesting stories i’ve ever encountered
@SuicideBunny64 жыл бұрын
Luckily he only started making forgeries when his own works didn't take off. Some Austrian painter at the time even started a war for it ...
@the_otter59363 жыл бұрын
LMAOOO
@txtp3 жыл бұрын
Georgian, actually...
@rubyj32874 жыл бұрын
The art style is just amazing!!!! The rough textures sort of feel like colored pencils and it gives the video a really nice feel.
@phiutubeful4 жыл бұрын
Art forgery: well... that’s not a good thing... Scammed the nazis: welp, that’s okay
@mjstory19764 жыл бұрын
Awesome and informative video
@westwizard69924 жыл бұрын
This guy had a main question on my LSAT test this year, needless to say I got it horribly wrong
@zur1cord Жыл бұрын
Off-topic, but i just wanna say the music score starting from 4:19 to the end was really good. Especially the part at 4:40. You don't notice it but the music in ted-ed videos really does add another layer to it.
@jerrylim67224 жыл бұрын
**forges a painting** herman goring: I'LL HAVE YOUR WHOLE STOCK **allies win** I'm gonna do what's called a pro gammer move... **change team**
@jerrylim67224 жыл бұрын
@Abigail Fegan I heard that he was so proud of his achievements that he had people surprize him with the map of his territories permanently engraved onto his back... did not go as he planned.
@Nimish2043 жыл бұрын
Just like Italy
@nexo71814 жыл бұрын
It's nice to watch TedEd videos while on quarantine... Knowledge is power
@guifdcanalli4 жыл бұрын
This dude tricked the nazis and his work was so good that he did need to prove his paintings were fake LoL this is a high level scammer, i love it
@deepamalu31703 жыл бұрын
The music here is just underrated as meegeren
@lovely.avocados.8184 жыл бұрын
They teach me more than my school do💀
@bswathe4 жыл бұрын
Kya be yar kaise comment dalta
@abhirammanthena73334 жыл бұрын
@Ali Hadi Babar Hindi I guess
@scaredyghosts3 жыл бұрын
The greatest compliment a person could ever receive is when others find it hard you created a masterpiece.
@TheHiroClaw1234 жыл бұрын
"later forged in turn by his own son" the son: the turn tables, father
@Pedrosa25414 жыл бұрын
What I got from this is that the difference between a successful artist and an unsuccessful one isn't about techniquique creativity or whatever, is just fame.
@alisondixon1104 жыл бұрын
Does anyone know what the background music is? It’s so nice
@BA-bt5pj2 жыл бұрын
I wanna know too🥺
@fidly42 жыл бұрын
At the task of becoming a great artist, this man is the definition of "Mission Failed Successfully"
@ajamesarellano4 жыл бұрын
“The BEST place for money laundering is through art exhibits.” Be a troll or get trolled. hahaha 😂😜🤣
@chaitanyaprabhu19063 жыл бұрын
The background music in the last minute was lit💜
@diekje87284 жыл бұрын
He even studied the signature of Vermeer over and over so he could perfectly sign his fake painting It truly is an amazing story
@themossy0074 жыл бұрын
What a fantastic story, thank you TED-Ed.
@techiesithastobetechies.85314 жыл бұрын
That was an amazing story!
@tomasavendano6354 жыл бұрын
Bredius: So, how did you find this stunning work of art? Meegeren: Around.
@elPichirri4 жыл бұрын
Before bootleg cd’s and dvd’s were sold there was this guy
@stephenmessano18472 жыл бұрын
What a fascinating tale! Love these TED-EDs.
@muukku4 жыл бұрын
And that kids, is what you call a *pro* *gamer* *move*
@dennynikaj3 жыл бұрын
As an artist I say that he is a TRUE ARTIST, we are a rare breed, and we make life more interesting, fun and mysterious, as an artist shoud.
@amaraa77504 жыл бұрын
What is the background music?
@ihatetoselecthename4 жыл бұрын
somebody help.. coz i wana know too
@viratdeshwal41363 жыл бұрын
Yeah me too!!
@jannetteberends87304 жыл бұрын
“Het hertje” (the deer), an authentic early work of van Meegeren, was very popular in the Netherlands. My aunt had it on the wall in the living room.
@bobbyferg91734 жыл бұрын
4:36 I guess that is a mixture of irony and like father like son
@ashefshahrior54374 жыл бұрын
This deserves a live movie!
@skystrike415083 жыл бұрын
Van Meegeren: I'm going to do what is called a pro gamer move Seriously this guy is the biggest brain boy I have ever seen.
@eririe14514 жыл бұрын
Ted ed should do video about monet. His painting resonates really deeply within so many people. His painting evokes the same feeling you might get if you watch a really beautiful sunset or a rolling field full of flower bursting in color.
@Azrielfiend4 жыл бұрын
me: make a good comment. *Make a good comment.* my brain: _I'm speed._
@hoimeedey51554 жыл бұрын
van Meegeran died in 1947. On the last day of his appeal he suffered a heart attack which caused his death. He never could relish the joy of becoming a 'true artist'. He died forger, respect came after death.
@jamesdemella22903 жыл бұрын
2:00 no neck?
@MissKittieMo Жыл бұрын
Okay but who scored this video bc this is, by far, the best song on a video i've heard. That intro, the instruments, the layers, like what?! i need them on more videos
@nazbmn2424 жыл бұрын
Last time i was this early, self promoters Were everywhere. * checks again * oh wait their back
@lorrenzrenomeron35694 жыл бұрын
*they're
@warrenkeystone51954 жыл бұрын
*They're
@dread7252 Жыл бұрын
The music at the end actually slaps
@elek84604 жыл бұрын
3:05 please no, it’s not Holland it’s the Netherlands. We don’t call the UK England either
@saucyyikers38774 жыл бұрын
Imagine being good at painting that you are able to fake amazing pieces of work yet you are unknown by almost everyone.
@deanodama.51114 жыл бұрын
It's the Netherlands. Holland is just a part of it 🙄😂 nevertheless interesting video 🤗
@maxbrouwer60724 жыл бұрын
Abigail Fegan yes people do often say it’s the same. But they are very different. Holland consists of 2 provinces called Zuid-Holland(South - Holland) and Noord - Holland (North - Holland). The Netherlands consists of 12 provinces and 2 of these have Holland in the name. Holland has the most tourists of the Netherlands which is one of the reason why people see Holland and the Netherlands as the same.
@marisokami52594 жыл бұрын
people have already pointed this out but the country is called the netherlands, there are two western provinces called north and south holland, the whole country ISN'T holland... come on it's not hard... is it?
@marisokami52594 жыл бұрын
not really, only foreigners call it holland, there was an official rebranding effort a year or so ago that you were supposed to explain to foreigners that it's officially the netherlands now, i can't recall anyone ever calling the whole country holland exept i guess cheering for national football teams, (also i'm dutch btw) and very situational things... it's not something that you can put in the context of their video at least, also sorry for the rant
@JaguarKnight-hk7gl4 жыл бұрын
Who else watching this instead of doing their online school assignments?
@ghostderazgriz4 жыл бұрын
you caught me.
@mehxsquared3 жыл бұрын
Loving the accuracy in this video, good jobb
@ianw19763 жыл бұрын
2:18 “E-mouse” Wow I totally believe the narrator is Christian. It’s “e-MAI-us.”
@anmolmaniyar68684 жыл бұрын
Even art forgery is valuable in its own right. By the way, nicely played!
@SkyFantasyWorld4 жыл бұрын
2 minutes in and were already at 500 views lads
@winona16434 жыл бұрын
It’s a roller coaster from beginning to the end i like it
@luhreen13614 жыл бұрын
Never been THIS early
@moofarmblam97414 жыл бұрын
The music in this one is great! Now I wish there was a movie about him.
@ThanhTran-pi4qw4 жыл бұрын
Yes, I'm replaying just to listen to the music with my titanium earbuds. It's sound so good
@imageaudio62054 жыл бұрын
@@ThanhTran-pi4qw The name of the music is Earnest Forgery. It was composed for this video. Here is the link for the music: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/r9hnjMqJl9Kxo4E.html
@ezucra4 жыл бұрын
Nazis: so How are we going to arrest him? Russians: I dont know The Roman empire: youve got yourself into some serious stuff mate Paris: yep I agree
@Gamerblam Жыл бұрын
You have to admit that he certainly did his research and worked very hard, albeit through notorious ways. Gotta admire his Ingenuity and Persistence even if you don’t call his works actual art.
@Autob0y4 жыл бұрын
Omg I’m early
@morningday22584 жыл бұрын
Beautiful story thanks ted for all what you are make for us🌷
@wolfboi70854 жыл бұрын
first
@Pssybart4 жыл бұрын
My grandfather used to fondly tell stories about Van Meegeren. Was he truly a folk hero? Probably not, he clearly profited from the war. When people were dying of starvation during the 'hunger winter' Van Meegeren was eating caviar. Yet, one can't but help admire his skill and wit. A complicated figure to say the least.