It's an honour to be able to discuss such things. Thank you!

Or L for Leonidas, the king of Sparta who fought at Thermopylae.

You're right about the weapon part. Even with armor that amount of mass concentrated on the narrow impact point of the edge is no joke.

allso, Hoplite (Οπλίτης) in greek means The man who carries a weapon, we use this term in Greece even today for the men who joins the army (mandatory)

don't forget that the word hoplite - ΟΠΛΙΤΗΣ - is an anagram of the word citizen - ΠΟΛΙΤΗΣ - because the hoplites were the Armed Citizens

Thats why i like it more than any other type of shield is the fact its also a weapon a deadly one

​@Johnny12575 Do we have evidence of the Classical Greeks using anagrams? Specifically, evidence in surviving writings.

Temenos Lykourgos cheers! The main things I learnt was that the aspis was probably lighter than the one I have and that the word 'hoplite' was used far later than I thought.

So, something I want to mention that's extremely important for people in our position to consider. We mustn't let an overly heavy shield influence too much how we think they were utilized!~ As many of these ancient painters were hoplites themselves, I do have fair doubts that they would depict use of the shield that was impractical or never happened, especially on average. And there are a multitude of images that show the aspis being held outward. imgur.com/a/oqh2d (My album of depictions) And I am someone who thinks hoplites fought in a fairly close/dense phalanx whenever they could. But there are accounts of men being penetrated through their shield, through their armor, and having a spear stuck into them. So, tough as it was, an overlapping of shields would provide extra defenses against those unlucky shots. Often when these shields are made in our kind of convenient 'stacked rings' method, they're glued and sanded but often not sanded enough, which leaves us with very sturdy shields which are ultimately far heavier and thicker than they really ought to be! There are accounts of aspides 'smashed to pieces' as well, which I don't think really would be the case if they were frankly indestructible (though I will mention that I do find that evidence of a close/literal othismos). I speak from experience, regarding weight! I heard the weight of your shield, and mine is technically about 3 pounds heavier, weighing in at about 25 pounds (11 kilos), but it's more open on the inside, and I am able to move it pretty freely. - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/frWmgdiq18-mhZc.html Most re-enactors will tend to agree that a reasonable shield weight is closer to 10-15 pounds (6 kilos) max. (: It was a large and strong shield, but mostly that strength comes from the design of the dome, and the very thickened rim. The front of it was not actually remarkably thick, and often the interior where the bicep and forearm meat the porpax and antilabe had some kind of up-armoring inside (maybe extra wood layers, or actual bronze sheet) to help protect from over-penetration. 1.bp.blogspot.com/_O-l1-qFVCoE/R8JS0wZvlII/AAAAAAAAAKk/T22YJLdRGqU/s400/gregoriano.jpg The rim would help a hell of a lot with splitting and overall the dome shape is very strong against crushing forces. Regarding using swords, with the shield presented in front of you, you are basically only using the sword to thrust downward at a diagonal angle if someone's right up against your shield. If they're further out, you can swing as normal, basically. Cheers! Excellent video. Far better informed and researched than most out there!

Very kind of you to say - thanks!

a pleasure - it's definitely larger than I thought. Not sure what's up next, need to have the think.

Regarding training; In the Archaic they were very rich upper classmen, and probably trained themselves. Throughout the Classical era, most hoplites were still essentially a dogged 'levy' force, of citizens within a certain wealth bracket. There was very little if any formalized training in this era, aside from elite forces or mercenaries. In the Hellenistic era, citizen levies still existed, and state-funded 'chosen hoplites' would likely have had training, as well as mercenaries, and some poleis such as Athens did require some amount of training for all eligible citizens, but we don't know to what extent.

cheers!

Thanks, but I think my shield is a bit heavier than the type used in antiquity. Plus those guys were a lot fitter!!

although i think hes ripped, im sure the hoplites back then were at least as him

Size isn’t strength

People wearing this shields were farmers and workers stonemasons or similar. They were strong. If you have ever seen a worker he dosnt have feeling on heaviy if its not more that 50 kg.

thanks, I hope they enjoy it. I also have a podcast and a website which might be of help - www.ancientblogger.com (my podcast link is on there as well).

Thank you. Need to get some more kit to review.

Alfred Thomas very kind, thank you!

many thanks for the kind words! I'm not comfortable with the concept of some sort of formal transition between the aspis and later shields, it was probably more haphazard with variations in different parts of Greece depending on a range of factors. What we know is that it appears less frequently and there's a fair amount of debate as to why.

The thureos was definitely not an immediate successor. The two were being used at the same periods, and certain poleis or leagues, (The Achaean League in particular) adopted the thureos especially early. We still don't know exactly what Iphicrates' hoplites were armed with, with some suggesting a long spear and thureos each held in one hand, and others a small ovular shield with a two-handed short-pike. But many surmise it to be a smaller, ovular mix between the later phalangites' little rounded pelta and the later thureophoros' ovular shield. Hoplites certainly made it into the Hellenistic era. Makedonia famously still used elite groups of hoplites (Hyspaspists) with their pike phalanxes, and in certain places the old levy hoplites could still be drawn up. Those more 'modern' poleis would probably have adopted the thureos earlier, whereas older or less wealthy ones would have kept their old aspides for a while. Eventually though, the Romanization of the entire region, which basically already followed the Makedonian taming of the region, (which saw the bulk of infantry rendered into phalangites), rendered the aspis a thing of the past.

thanks - that might be handy to know!

thanks!

thanks and glad you enjoyed it

Dimitris Stamatelis thanks. Would like to do more often but life gets in the way!

Hi Wyatt, no offence taken! I'm only 5'6 though, so perhaps the camera adds a few inches as well as pounds! But yep, I'm definitely not anywhere near hoplite fitness levels.

Weird, from the camera it looked more like you were 6'. Although you still probably have more muscle mass than the average Greek soldier. These weren't terribly well fed or efficiently fed people. Height and weight is a bit of a strange pattern in history. In the bronze age civilizations it's a bit short, it starts increasing in the iron age, it continues to increase even after the collapse of the WRE, and then it plummets in the late middle ages. Height only starts recovering again in around the 19th century.

Hoplites scarcely existed in the bronze age. The Classical-to-Hellenistic periods were through the *Iron Age*, not the bronze age. Roughly 500-200BC. The height difference was not substantial, and both cultural influences and statuary shows us for pretty matter of factly that men could get buffed up, and that the Greeks in particular thought that the toned and muscled human form was beautiful.

@Wyatt wilmot: "Weird, from the camera it looked more like you were 6'. Although you still probably have more muscle mass than the average Greek soldier." they trained several hours. every day. " These weren't terribly well fed or efficiently fed people." sure thing. fresh fruits, fish and olive oil for fat, wildnimal for proteins and plenty of everything - yeah -definitly underfed. " Height and weight is a bit of a strange pattern in history. In the bronze age civilizations it's a bit short, it starts increasing in the iron age, it continues to increase even after the collapse of the WRE, and then it plummets in the late middle ages.". " Height only starts recovering again in around the 19th century." Because people were SOO well fed during fullindustrialization, masspoverty and preworldwar. "Skeletal records from the Bronze Age point to the Greeks being tiny. With males probably being around 5'8" at most" Source. Because every museum i've visited points to way taller ppl (armor, weaponry, jewellry (...) medical tools...). Otherwise: "Skeletal records from medieval times point to the skandinavians being tiny and winged, With males probably being round 5cm tall at most". Skeletal records from any age point out, that the greeks varied greatly in size, as there were a fuckton of different tribes from different places, arriving at different times in greece. oh btw - there had been a thracian gladiator that killed a rhino. 1 on 1. oh wait - maybe the rhino was tiny and superskinny, too?^^ Wishful thinking ftw...

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081217-himera-mass-grave.html My small contribution

Hi Marko, Thanks for watching and I always welcome well supported points like yours. Just to clarify, at the during the vlog (4:50) I did say that I was making a generalised view of the hoplite and the conditions of battle in which the shield was brought into play. I also referenced how contested all of this is with many opinions on just about every aspect. Just to respond to your points: 1. I would argue that flat level terrain was the preferred terrain for hoplite battles, the instance you refer to is certainly an interesting one but I don’t think it proves the mainstream view as incorrect. Herodotus places the standard hoplite battle as occurring on level ground (7.9b), I’m sure there are occasions where battles took place elsewhere but, again, I was giving an outline of the hoplite experience in which I could set the aspis and its use. 2. I’ve read over the account and from what I can understand the Spartans weren’t the ones running, it was the forces under Herippidas who were fighting alongside the Spartans who charged out. However, I did use the word ‘never’ which is never wise! As per my previous point I was giving an overview and the Spartan slow-paced march was a noted feature which I don't think is often communicated. 3. In my vlog I mention Paul Bardunias and it’s the term he used. I’m sure it can be used elsewhere, but it’s what I felt comfortable with. 4. There’s a fair amount of debate on this, yours is a good point but I think it’s important to weigh up the supporting evidence and outline the evidence. It seems a ‘given’ that the Lambda featured on shields and I just wanted to unwrap that a little more. 5. Earlier on (5:27) I mentioned that there was a wider debate on whether the hoplites fought in tight formation or more loosely. At (9:25) I am talking about how the porpax possibly supports the argument of close formation fighting. The use of swords does give the option of a different style of fighting, perhaps this was more open? Thanks again thought Marko, it’s great to have feedback like yours and I appreciate your constructive comments (I’ve been lucky in that regard).

Thank you!

Good question. Am on holiday but will try to get an answer. The type of shield I think you are referring to is a Boeotian (just so you know).

can you do a vid on this kind of shield? it seems unique and is not referenced anywhere but one video in greek about shields and a vid about Boeotian shield usage. the way he describes it is exactly the way it is shown to be used in the movie "troy". why is this so obscure? seems as though it should be more known unless im missing some giant, integral part of the combat itself. never been in spear/shield combat so i really wouldnt know shit from shinola.

I'd need to get a shield first! I buy my own kit and it's rarely cheap. That said I always welcome input and ideas so perhaps I could try one without a physical shield. I found this thread which might offer insight to some of your questions in the neantime romanarmytalk.com/thread-5159-post-64549.html

lol i was literally commenting and lookin shit up while i was commenting:D it is but the useage has been almost nil in movies and in historical reference aside from simply the shape of the shield being depicted; usually, there is a representation of how to use the items depicted on vases and frescos. i feel like a whole facet of combat is lost. fast, striking with a shield to dazzle an opponent and destroy a rank of men. everyone jabbing with a leverage point in their shiled isnt just like having a bunch of arrows at you or a bunch of pikes. its the difference between being behind a porcupine thats asleep as opposed to one that is pissed off at you.

reading that, now it seems as though it would have been more for a champion or for duelling, not for a formation. but the phalanx came after the greeks right? with the romans? boeotian was a people or a style of shield?greeks were fighting before romans. and the period of troy and greece was before rome by centuries.in the movie troy, the style of fighting with a shield looks very natural but is by all accouts, aside from the boeotian shield, non-historical. i still think if i was going to carry a shield, id want those crescent cuts or at least one. fuck it. im making a vid tomorrow about my shield. its not a traditional shield more functional than anything. i just dont know why there are no vids about boeotian shields. for fighting a person cqc with a stick or edge, this is the thing to pick up in your left hand.

Good points, I'm certainly not a trained hoplite but I wonder how familiar they would have been given the non-professional armies? There can also be a danger in taking vase images and other artwork too literally.

@@AncientBlogger What you're saying is a valid point and is a common question, though when something becomes so commonly depicted that it's the norm, I wonder how much of it is simply taken-for-granted experience rather than an artistic license. For example, with kite shield depictions, such as at the battle of Hastings wit the Bayeux Tapestry, the shield is held outwards straight and that's also common in the same period depictions (such as mosaics in Italy). Concerning the training, my understanding is Greek City states often were at war with each other so calling up citizens to fight was commonplace, though this is my opinion on the matter. With the Spartans, training was more or less from childhood but I'm sure other states regularly engaged in Martial Activities and training. Wrestling, boxing, pankration etc were common and also events at the olympics such as Hoplitodromos (races in Ancient Greek Armour). So it's safe to say conditioning with the aspis was probably common.

Glad you enjoyed it. I got the tshirt from Litographs, the link is in a piece I did on my website www.ancientblogger.com/2018/07/ancient-history-apparel-antiquitshirts/ good luck with the mod!

Thanks, also, I am guessing you don't have a facebook? I don't really use anything else really, since I'm an old fashioned guy haha. But no seriously if you don't have a facebook page you should really consider making one, I'd love to follow you on there.

@@TigerBaron I have a page on facebook called Ancient Blogger. Let me know if you can find it!

Found it, I was just asking since you didn't mention it in the video, that's all.

@@TigerBaron I think this was before. Good point though, should update my links.

Cheers, was fun to do!

No idea - I managed to get this one by chance (chatting to someone on twitter). I couldn't find one at the time anywhere. That was a while back so perhaps there is more chance now? Good luck and I hope you find one.

Many thanks!

😄 the world has suffered enough! 😄

@@AncientBlogger Indeed. That's why you could help it a bit that way.

It's a great question. The rope on the inside is a bit of a curiosity, I've seen it written that it could be tightened somewhow to give some added resistance to the shield (unsure how that would work). I've also read that these were purely decirative for when the shields were hung in temples or such and artists of the day (perhaps using them as a real study) didn't realise this so left them in. Perhaps it was also a nice detail to add? I'm not really sure to be honest!

Wish I could help you more. I couldn't get one in the UK and came across this one more by chance. I can only suggest you contact a local(ish) reinactment group. They are often a great resource.

@@AncientBlogger Thanks and your video was awesome. Had no idea that the shield's name was an aspis.

@@newellseay7481 thanks. As you might read in the comments the name of the shield is quite a contentious subject!

What I was trying to get at was that the notion that the lambda on the shield as a definitive indicator of Spartans seems to be a modern convention (or interpretation). Where the lambda came to be used on the shields it may have been to indicate helots or those supporting fighters. Of course Spartiates may have used them later, but it wasn't a clear indicator as movies and films might have you believe.

Shield factories, most likely. Thanks to the Vatican shield, we can tell they were probably made from lighter planks of wood glued together. They may have been sanded down very smoothly by a lathe afterward. A layer of leather or linen may have been put over the whole thing afterward, tightly holding it together, and glued on. Afterward, the extra-thickened rim attachments would have been sanded down, glued and/or nailed on. If you were reeeally rich, you would then either have a bronze rim created around the edge, or have the entire front of your shield fit with a bronze cap. i.pinimg.com/736x/39/d3/fb/39d3fb555d2c9054bc610f4fad51db07.jpg qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ea5ac4717a2d98b6fbe3cc10cf68b55c-c

I think that's probably the case.

I have to agree you're talkin about a 7 to 9 foot long spear, in a tight press like as described in this video it would be almost impossible to use effectively.

Good question. If you google this or see the comments below I think you'll see how this is quite a debated topic. I don't see them as separate items. I just used aspis as my definition. I sense the debate is over which is deemed as more accurate as a label for the same shield.

Weirdly enough I got it on twitter, couldn't find one and put a tweet out. and hey presto. It's a bit heavier than what the real thing would have been but I can deal with that!

Ancient Blogger Ah you lucky bastard. Anyway thank you for this great video! You are a great speaker and it makes your videos enjoyable to watch.

very kind of you!

Oddly enough I put something out on twitter and someone had a friend who had this in a shed! It's a bit heavier than we think an aspis might be but good for display and vlogging.

I'm not sure, I got mine out of chance after trying to locate one online. The only thing I can suggest is try some reinactment groups. Good luck!

Now, this is an interesting thought. Might it even be the case that one hoplite , with his left hand, also took hold of the cord of the aspis of his mate to his right ? Like, in this way forming a real chain of shields? But I have never read about this possibility, just a wild guess.

Not a chance a warrior would risk going without his shield, also the shield would be around 15lbs

Does anyone know if the 300 quote is a true quote? "Come back with your shield or on it" how do we know if it really meant these sea fairing warriors literally came back to greece floating on their shields?

interesting idea Andrew, not sure hoplites were looking to use the shields for floatation devices though. I've never heard of them in this capacity.

@@andrewvisionzero it was a saying attributed to Spartan mothers (Plutarch Moralia 243), as it was very difficult to run away from a battle with your shield (would be the first thing you'd drop). Therefore you either come home with it or not at all.

This shield I got via a twitter conversation, a complete fluke. I had tried to source a shield prior to this with no luck.

Little do you know... modern combat infantry easily tote 60 kgs into combat depending upon their combat role (mortarmen, machine gunners, load bearers, et cetera). You should perhaps amend your statement here for you are incorrect in your assessment of "modern man". There are some modern men capable of physical exploits beyond the common man.

Do you mean holding it more side on? I reckon it could be used a number of ways or styles, perhaps depending on the situation or opponent.

From Litographs, the link is found in my article on history tshirts. www.ancientblogger.com/2018/07/ancient-history-apparel-antiquitshirts/

The tank is far from obsolete

@@nicholasmaximus3412 well it's a debate that can't be decided until there is a peer to peer battle. All I know for certain is that when an expensive weapon can be defeated by a cheap one, there is a far reaching paradigm shift, and those that don't recognise it and adapt are at a disadvantage in any future conflict. The Air and Missile War in Nagorno-Karabakh, is a valuable lesson, even though Armenian air defences were not geared to countering drones and UAV's. Azerbaijani drones provided significant advantages in ISR as well as long-range strike capabilities. They enabled Azerbaijani forces to find, fix, track, and kill targets with precise strikes far beyond the front lines. UAVs were operationally integrated with fires from manned aircraft and land-based artillery but also frequently used their own ordinance to destroy various high-value military assets.

Sadly not as I don't have one. Good idea though, imagine there must be some on KZfaq?

@@AncientBlogger not really

www.litographs.com it was a while back but fingers crossed they still have it.

@@AncientBlogger thank you for the quick response and thanks for the video

there is that debate!

@@AncientBlogger I didn't even know there was a debate... What's going on? Have I been lied to by my history books? I'm so confused.

@@huntclanhunt9697 yep, it can get heated but some argue for hoplon, others aspis. If you search for the debate you'll see what I mean!

cheers, how are other folk ruining themselves out of interest? Need to know what to avoid!

wont name names. willname actions. pandering to 'new movie/series' and how their armour/shield/helm/weapon looks like x. from y. seeing this gets views and so do a play list... stay true to yourself. there are enough trying to make the fringe anachronistic the new niche thing. need enough true so we know what to dross away when impure meets pure. still stoned. liked what I saw. want to appreciate instead ov parose. dyslexic. i think spell check gave up a while ago.@@AncientBlogger

ha! Miss it myself, top chaps on there.

Γιώργος Καστρίτης thanks for your input and for watching. There seems to be quite a few debates over which terms were used.

The practice of shield emblems and the stereotype of the Spartan insignia is a good point. I've read arguments which posit that the iconic Spartan emblem is a later exagerration or invention.

​@@AncientBlogger Aspis is not cheap shield to be used in one battle and thrown away, it takes considerable time to make and also some not very cheap (in Greece) materials. I would say it doesn't make sense not to decorate it with something, when Greeks were decorating even cheap pottery. So I think shields where decorated, especially mercenary hoplite shields. When person has money and sells soldier service, he underlines his experience by having decorated equipment, just like European mercenaries did 2 thousand years later.

thanks, it was a bit on the heavy side (as am I!). The ones used would have been lighter. Glad you found it useful.