Rumour has it that Salamanders Primaris are 17% more likely to hug you and have increased stomping potential.

“But at what cost?” “Around 70 dollars my lord. Plus shipping. And that isn’t even from forge world” *”By the Emperor...”*

Ultramarines : By, the Emperor... What has happened to my humanity? Iron Hands : Efficiency achieved.

I rmemeber a moment in the Ultramarines books when they come across a ruined, burned out city. Uriel and Posanius find a ruined store with a makeshift barricade and behind it, a group of corpses. Likely a family. Uriel states the they must have been trying to hide. Posanius rhetorically asks "Why didn't they fight?" to which Uriel replies "They couldn't. they aren't trained and aren't armed. What would you do in their situation?" Posanius instantly replies "I would fight and kill anything threatening me and my people." Uriel looks at him sadly and thinks "Yes, as an astartes that is your instinct. But as a human with loved ones to care for. You wouldn't" It's really shocking that Uriel, the space marine who empathised with mortals and their struggles, would actually think this.

A loss of humanity seems to be more related to crossing the rubicon rather than being related to being primaris. In the vast majority of recent novels the primaris are shown to be more human than their first born brethren, often annoying their fellow space marines as they criticize their lack of empathy and humanity, this is seen prominently with the primaris that join the dark angels and flesh tearers. It is also worth noting that in the end of the Swords of Calth, Uriel is able to regain his humanity, and lose the disorientation of crossing the rubicon, albeit after a very intense life or death experience.

It’s kind of like the marines are re set to factory settings and have to rediscover what it means to be a defender of humanity and not just a weapon of the imperium

marneus calgar: oh there is very big chance I'll die? *LETS DO IT* 2 seconds later... marneus calgar: *FUCCCCKKKKK*

Then again there was that Dark Angel Primaris who showed more care for a human prisoner than the first born.

Dante: “please just let me do it, if I die it’s cool and if I don’t I’m stronger” Entire blood angels chapter:”NO” Dante:”I JUST WANNA DIE”

A couple thousand dollars and a divorce. -The actual cost of going Primaris

Me: "What's the cost of becoming primaris?" GW: "We need your banking routing number please. :^)"

*"And Then We Won"* - Primarneus Cawlgurl

The funny thing is, this is an observation of the first born becoming primaris, they become a bit colder, a bit more logical and tactical, but contraversely, the marines who start off as Primaris seem to veer in the opposite direction and have a bit too much humanity and are considered by the first born to be perhaps naive and inexperienced. Also, this is the experience given from the perspective of an Ultra Marine, we'd have to see how it effects those of other chapters. It is entirely possible that crossing the rubicon merely enhances the core personality traits of the gene seed of their Primarch father. So like UMs would be more logical, Space Wolves more feral, etc. Let us not forget that the HH Guilliman was quite like this, cold, logical, tactical, sure he had humanity, but he was also a big picture type of guy. Another idea is that crossing the rubicon might make them more like the Emperor as he exhibited tons of these traits before being put on the chair. We need a larger sample size of experience to truly see.

Uriel:"leave the militarum behind." Warsmith Honsou eavesdropping: "*MY MAN.*" 😂

Uriel once nearly fell to his own death to catch a guardsmen commander that had been trapped in the warp so long his body was withered and near useless. The commander fell from a cliff they were scaling and Uriel cursed himself for the brief moment where he considered letting the man go to save himself.

Geneseed of all 20 legions....me :thinking of lost primarchs and their legion

A theory: Maybe the change to Primaris just amplifies qualities of the gene seed. Ultramarines were always very tactically minded, not inhuman but tactical, maybe the change just made them tactical to the point of inhumanity towards the guardsmen? Maybe an interesting way of looking at it

This is a bit like the Stormcast in AoS. If they're killed and 'Reforged', each time, they lose something of who they used to be. For them it can be anything - a memory, a skill, a personality trait, an emotion. They're beginning to fear that they'll become soulless automatons over time.

Everything has a price. The only question is, "Is it worth Paying ?"

Since it doesn't seem to have the same effect on marines who were Primaris from the start (e.g. Felix), it probably isn't intentional. I'd say it's something like... when you become Primaris, you lose a fifth of your humanity, say. Space marines have lost some humanity to start with, so when they become Primaris, they lose some more again.

Remember all that civil war setup we had for space marines with the addition of primaris marines? Yeah turns out everyone can be a primaris now, with only a minor chance of dying in the rubicon if you arent a named character.

i like to think that after the rubicon you lose some humanity and have to learn how to be human again, to regain what was lost through effort and patience.

Uriel: The Rubicon made me tougher! Me: *Looks at datasheet* Nope, still Toughness4

What if the transformation from first born into primaris affect different chapters differently? What if it make the salamanders more aggressive about protecting humanity?

This is interesting, because I very distinctly remember a dark angel's primaris leaning further into his humanity, which causes a lot of friction with the first born dark angels. Maybe primaris that start off as primaris are more adjusted to it, and this problem is only for first borns?

One thing that's important to note is that there are no plans, either in or out of universe, to completely replace Firstborn Marines with Primaris. It's even been stated in the lore that Firstborn Marines are far more tactically flexible in their formations than Primaris Marines.

well, now i wanna see some primaris Malevolent Marines

I really enjoy your voice, your choice of words and the way you pronounce your sentences. Super calming.

This opened the door for chaos primaris.

This may be the reason the Primaris Salamander successor chapters are so unlike their parent chapter.

Purging emotions from Primaris Less corruption from the warp

"You see, my friend, Space Marine cost far more per model than the Guard..."

I have to say I really like the twist of the idea that Guilliman and Cawl had the hubris to think they could successfully improve on the Astarties and the Primaris could turn out to be these monsters lacking in empathy. Very poetic. It will be interesting to see where that thread goes.

Im really liking the dark flaws they're adding to the Primaris

I think neither. Guilliman knew Uriel was hiding something but it never said exactly what. Yes, Uriel paused before replying but he also stated how he had a false sense of humility (or something like that). So, I propose that crossing the Rubicon would actually bring out the TRUE self of the Astarte and how their perceive stuff. Would make for great story contrast.

I would love to read a short story about the Salamanders and how they have integrated the Primaris!

The translation of RUBICON PRIMARIS from high gothic to low gothic is NEW MODEL

I can't wait till Mephiston becomes even more powerful to the point that the chapter's bio magic librarians have to work their magic on him.

I suspect that Space Marines (or at least some chapters) are taught to avoid self-introspection for so long, that once they HAVE to perform an evaluation after becoming Primaris, they have no way to measure how it has or hasn't changed them. Guilliman asks who Uriel was before, and Uriel doesn't really know.

Guilliman's humanity was mostly result of his human parents. I'd say the transformation enhances their primarch's original pre-programming.

The cost is never another release for anybody other then SM

Is the logic perhaps an extension of their gene seed? Ultras are always logical, tactical minded. Perhaps it exacerbates certain traits, like space wolves are extra feral, or dark angels extra chaos.

If War of Secrets is still considered canon, then I'd say the Rubicon doesn't erase all of their humanity. Lieutenant Faren displayed a fair measure of humanity, much to his superior Dark Angels annoyance.

"Cold logic that seeks to expunge weakness where ever it is found". That line just prooves how Uriel sees all weaknesses around him including his own fellow first born Ultramarines.

Thanks again, Wolf Lord, really appreciate your vids during these stressful days.

"But you were always Primaris... Jonathan"

Its possible this is a side effect of going through gene enhancement twice .. they already had their nature torn apart once and now it happens to them again when crossing the Rubicon I am thinking this because of the DA Primaris where he was acting more humane than the firstborn Marines from his chapter

What if Cawl pulls an order 66 situation with the primaris and tries to take over the imperium.

Cawl: oh you love having your emotions? You love battle and spilling blood? Feeding the Chaos gods?! Cawl: *emotions removed*

Do we have any stories about Salamander primaris marines? It’d be interesting to see if they fared any better, especially since I was hoping to write about an all-primaris Salamanders successor chapter.

I think the real cost is going from a 28m base too a 32m base!

And to think that dude from the flesh tearers thought that the primaris project was to turn all the chapters into Smurfs.

How long until Cawl rolls out the Primaris Luna Wolves, Death Guard etc lol

I wonder if this is only a first born problem? I remember a dark angel primaris who stunned the first born by his better treatment of a prisoner

I believe that undergoing the process of becoming a primaries marine in Uriel's case is like growing older. People change when they become older due to the more experience and knowledge we receive, but it seems as if Uriel had lost his experience in turn for knowledge effecting his attitude.

I suppose an argument could be made that when the Dark Angel's Primaris were being humane towards that civilian, they were only doing so to expedite the process of gathering information... Or it's just another conflicting lore moment... imagine that.

If you want Rho check out spears of the emperor cause youll also see another marine cross the rubricon and comment on how different everything is both mentally and physically. Its also a great read.

I know the Ultramarines get a lot of disdain, but I always loved their portrayal in the Uriel Ventris novels. Especially the bits scattered throughout where these gigantic unstoppable super humans who exist for no other reason than war actually show respect for the average humans that fight alongside them. Hearing that cold, unfeeling way of thinking being voiced by *Uriel Ventris*, one of the few Astartes to rival the Salamanders in terms of his humanity...gotta admit, it was a bit of a gut punch for me. Glad he seemed to have snapped out of it, though.

You know I'm a xenos player. Starting my first army which is Tyranid, I have zero interest in playing a loyalist faction. ...Until now, making an Iron Hands successor with Primaris leaning into this problem is *real interesting*.

My hope is this reaction is specific to Uriel as he finding his feet, in new shoes! Some who have experienced the Rubicon are perhaps more inclined to 'Re-learn' themselves to include more weighting towards chapter but the personal strength of an individual will prevail. That being said if this is deliberate by Caul it could be epic!

Have you read the spears of the emperor book? When the mentors legion marine crosses the rubicon he actually diverts from his more cold logical nature into his more base emotions.

I make this point to you Rho. Three guardsmen lives. Seven Astartes. An imperial world at stake. Fight to save ten. Lose ten. Lose the world and the lose the lives of billions. Sacrifice three. In The Emperor's service. Save seven Astartes that can make the difference to save the World. This world and potentially many others. Billions of servants of The Emperor able to fight against the enemy. To the loss of three. One Primaris Marine is a priceless asset in war that could win a battle and a war alone. This is the logic that Ventris is having to employ. Without putting his selfish desires into the equation. It is about winning. Not the "slow losing" that we've become accustomed to since The Horus Heresy and the time of the Great Crusade.

Interesting video man. Its brilliant how deep you delve into lore and pass on your conclusions in such a passionate way 👏

Ventris is evolving into the logical advanced Primaris who fights against odds to win at any cost.

I loved the debate Dante had about crossing over to Primaris and the details of Mephiston. Mephiston didn’t have a choice really and that was an intense scene. Have you read that series?

Maybe I'm just a grumpy old Veteran Sergeant Firstborn, but I'm still not very keen with the Primaris. Courage and honour!

That description of guiluiman makes me wonder if the primarchs(aside from vulkan) are naturally truly immortal seeing as this is like the 3rd instance i know of where we see a description of a primarch ageing. With the first two being horus after leaving the portal on moloch and russ in his primarch novel after he comes back to Mourne the lions death and when the space wolves have just become a chapter.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cawl must have rightfully considered that "cold logic" is a much needed asset when your race is just one step away from extinction.

It's quite possible the changes only affect those who cross the Rubicon. It's also possible the changes affect each brother or chapter differently.

Hey Wolf. In the book, Spears of the Emperor. A Mentor Astartes also goes through the Rubicon as well, after being mortally wounded. And the only changes he seems to go through, is a freeing of his old ways and ties to his Chapter. The Emperor's Spears are not like the Ultramarines sure. But I thought this be an interesting and good example, of the flip side of the coin you are bringing up here on this topic.

It should be noted that when The Emperor was building the legions. He recruited into the "War-born" (the later Ultramarines). From the most rebellious prisoners and regions on Terra. It was found the Ultramarine geneseed gave a change to increased acceptance to authority. It was used intentionally to remove overly rebellious elements on Terra. Prior to the Great Crusade. Insertion of one half of the Immortis gland in the brain, will no doubt have significant effects on the way Astartes thinks. I think Rho is reading too much into the logic that is employed by Ventris. Ventris is thinking of the bigger picture. Saving the Imperium. In what is its darkest hour. The Primaris are built to win. Wars. They are also built to not be corrupted by the petty concerns that were seen in the lead up to the end of The Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. By putting their human weaknesses and selfishness into decision making processes. To win wars. Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice 3 to save 7 that will win the combat. This is the arithmetic on a large scale The Emperor had to employ to attempt to defeat the enemies of man (Chaos) before that was undone by the petty concerns of men. Which our enemies played to. In the Great Crusade. The attrition on the Astartes had a great impact and cause of the subsequent Heresy. Primaris have clearly been better conditioned in this regard to know... Not everyone can be saved if the Imperium is to survive and win.

I'm late to the video just because I wanted to read at least most of the new Uriel novel. As a big fan of his, considering I'm only collecting the minis because I loved those novels so much, those opening chapters of the book were a big shakeup. From him not feeling anything when he saw Pasanius again, to thinking they should abandon the Militarum survivors, it was just such a big departure from the Uriel I was used to. Old Uriel missed Pasanius when he had to do one campaign without his friend. Old Uriel had a wounded planetary defense force trooper carried off the field to hospital by an Ultramarine. Old Uriel made friends with humans like Barzano and Shonai, he said a small prayer for the innocent humans that had to die when he bombed a radar station that had been taken over by rebels. He even told his Ultramarines that human soldiers are to be honoured and respected in previous novels. On the other hand, it also made me think that maybe maybe the first borns are still very important, specifically because they can help the new Primaris and also the newly converted first borns that cross the Rubicon to get their bearings properly and not go down the wrong path.

Maybe the Primaris upgrades have a different effect on each Chapter. the Ultramarines have always been a highly logic driven bunch, and maybe the Primaris upgrades simply enhances this characteristic to an even more superhuman level. That would of course mean, that the brutality of the Blood Angels is enhanced, the secrecy of the Dark Angels and the Iron Hands' contempt of weakness too.

Might be something more specific to those who cross the rubicon. The Mars born primaris in the other books seem a lot more chill.

Perhaps a side effect of changes made to make Primaris less susceptible to the temptations of Chaos? It's certainly hinted if not stated that such changes were made. The Grey Knights who are programmed, and perhaps physically modified, to better resist Chaos are also described as inhuman and are prone to ruthlessness toward humanity - for example executing Imperial Guard soldiers who have defeated Chaos incursions to prevent their knowledge of Chaos from spreading.

Maybe it’s not something that’s limited to affecting logic at the price of humanity or feeling only, but has a chance at increasing other traits within other chapters, or even individual marines as well? Depending on how they think prior to crossing the rubicon, maybe they come out being say, more bloodthirsty, or more caring, or something else? Maybe some undergo the inverse, like Uriel here might’ve. It would make for a good setup for chaos primaris, I know that much.

I like this, at the moment of their introduction, Primaris were perfect and that was it, felt forced in the setting, then named characters begun their "conversion", flawlessly at that. Now, this feels more acute, new power comes at a cost, maybe not physical, but more insidious and subtle, yet incredibly striking, the protectors of humanity losing the very soul that made them so.

Last year Rho covered a bit from “War of Secrets”, where a Dark Angel Primaris was trying to comfort a freezing guardswoman while his astartes brothers were chastising him for it. Could it be that this dilution of human emotion is only occurring with the Astartes that pass the Rubicon?

Great vid. 👍 This helps explain the primaris first hand.

Tabletop: uh, guys, only one wound and a new armour/gun, wtf?!

Someone in the comments asked what 'crossing the Rubicon' even means and this got me thinking. In general, 'crossing the Rubicon' means crossing a point of no return. The Rubicon is a river in northern Italy and it was one of the boundary rivers of the old Rome. It was absolutely forbidden to cross the Rubicon with armed Legions, every attempt of doing so was seen as an attack on Rome. And in 49 b.c., Gaius Iulius Caesar did exactly that, crossing the Rubicon with his Legions as a result of a power struggle with a roman field commander and politician called Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus. The result was the outbreak of a civil war that resulted in Iulius Caesar becoming dictator of Rome and eventually in his assassination in 44 b.c.. I think that using this expression makes here sense here in a way, since the Astardes going through this process will inevitably sacrifice even more of their humanity than they already did by becoming Space Marines. And maybe it's even a foreshadowing of things to come and this whole Primaris thing will lead to another civil war within the Empire?

1:03 Whoa whoa whoa, Cawl has his mitts on the gene seed of ALL 20 legions?? The big E's edict didn't see to the lost 2 destruction?

Like others here stated going Primaris seams to push the attributes of the Primarch even further. Thus why Mephiston after he went Primaris control control his rage even better dispite the Black Angel trying to take over him. Thus allowing him to think clearly and decide what Sanguinius would want him to do.

Ti's is what they should have had with Primaris from the get go. Up until now they've just been portrayed as superior in every way, but this, this gives the Primaris drama, conflict, tragedy and horror. This makes them interesting.

This is the tease for chaos primaris. About time.

So I've watched this video probably 20 times now and I can't help but wonder; are the Astartes and the Primaris the Men of Stone and Men of Iron of this age? Is this what happened during the Age of Technology?

I've never heard the expression "crossing the Rubicon" so many times in my life.

Theory, Ultramarines are becoming more logical when crossing because they are becoming more like their Primarch. The Space Marines have always been a hybrid of humanity and Primarch. They always could have been more powerful but and everything else. But they lose the balance of their humanity. They are more like the Thunder Warriors, out of balanced and more like pure weapons of war. Since Space Marines were supposed to replace TWs it makes sense to put them on a more balanced part of the scale between humanity and Primarch. However, war was not ended with the crusade as hoped and so it is a necessary evil for the continued existence of humanity to have greater weapons that are less human.

Finally feel validated about how space marines don't have true courage. If you can't experience fear then you can't experience bravery. Bravery and courage is overcoming fear. It was a good scene to see marines talking to that.

I remember Decimus Felix feeling a genuine love for humanity... it think it was in a Cawl book 🤔

I really don’t want the primaris to replace the first born marines

Creating Primaris is questioning the Emperor´s plan. Questioning the Emperor´s plan is Heresy! *Sound of Incinerators igniting*

That is a very very good question if you take the dark Angels for instance in one of your earlier videos I do believe he was a dark Angels captain being more compassionate and humane to a simple servant then the firstborn dark Angels themselves I want to believe that it's different for each person for each primaries

Bro.. he handled this vid so well. Subbed for life. Amazing storytelling I imagine even for non 40k fans. I am, but I don't undervalue the actual storytelling between thematic sequences.

Oddly enough, I am almost finished listening to it on Audible...! And our favourite Ultramarine, Uriel has a few moments when he thinks about and the story talks about his "changes".

Such a great insight into the primaris. Did the god emperor know this and find the balance between humanity and mindless soldier?

I wonder if this cold logic also has a psychological effect on the Salamander Primaris marines, will be interesting to see how this is handled.

Cold logic does not feed chaos. That means traitor primaris are highly unlikely to happen.

You made my day my lord

I've been watching a few 40k lore videos per week for a couple of years now. I forgot that the Iron Hands still exist.