After much delay, the TCW Retcons Episode has arrived. We hope you guys enjoy

I think the best representation of Anakin is the Episode 3 novelization. There Anakin always tried to avoid talking about his murder of the sand people and felt extreme guilt for his murder of Dooku. He was actually a really nice guy who was just caught up in the Jedi Council's unfairness and issues. In the movie he was whining about not being a master because he wanted the title. In the book, he's trying to get a cure for his dying wife and he needs to search the archives to find one! That's brilliant writing! He even said to Palpatine he didn't WANT to join the dark side, he just wanted to stop Mace from killing him. Only after a lot of coaxing did he join and he didn't at first because the Jedi were his friends. Only until Palpatine pointed out they weren't his friends since they manipulated him and constantly put him in difficult positions. I actually felt legitimately bad when he joined the dark side. Even Obi-Wan was better handled in the book. He actually sheds a tear and admits they should have never put him in this position and now he will never trust them again and he doesn't know if Anakin SHOULD! Ok I'm done now this was a lot longer than I thought it would be Jesus. This is my General Grievous.

Luke- You knew my father? Obi-wan- Oh yes. The last time I saw him he had just killed a large amount of diplomats, children, and Jedi. Luke- What?! Obi-wan- And then he killed your mother and we had a crazy lightsaber duel inside a volcano and it ended because I was standing on a hill and he jumped so I cut his arm and legs off. Luke where are you going? Luke- Getting the fuck out of here!

Dem damn retcons.

Most excellent council masters, I have said before that I prefer Dark Horse over TCW any day all day but TCW had its moments. I absolutely abhor the portrayal of Quinlan Vos but I love that they revived Eeth Koth. I wholeheartedly agree with general consensus that the retcon of Dark Rendezvous was horrifying, my reasons are different though; The retcon of Dark Rendezvous completely obliterated Dooku's character. Dark Rendezvous was proof positive that Dooku was not the Sith Lord he fancied himself to be , it revealed his fears and doubts about the path he had taken. DR presented a side of Dooku that TCW utterly failed to do while also fleshing out more of Yoda's character (i.e the love, affection, and forgiveness he felt for Dooku despite his wrongs). DR made you question whether Dooku was truly evil or just misguided and opened up the possibilities never before thought of. In short ,DR solidified Both Dooku and Yoda has Sentients dealing with the same problems as any other sentient and not just a malevolent sorcerer and a benevolent sage unbothered by the experiences of other sentients.

Quinlin Vos has gone from the Jedi that killed Volfe Karkko to "The Surfer Dude"

I wish that they actually explain why Barriss went cray cray like you know...character development!

Luke: Tell me about my father Kenobi: Good man, flammable

Note to our fine viewers, there are points in this one where we might sound like we're getting heated/irritated with one another, it's not the case *at all* we just made it sound like that by accident for some reason. I think the worst example comes from me in Matt and I's off topic debate, I say something like "Anyone with any sense understands that". I'm referring to the characters but it sounds like I'm insulting Matt. That is NOT the case, I'm just an idiot and rarely get across what I'm trying to say. It might be that nobody sees any issue, but when editing I thought it might be a possible reaction so I wanted to preemptively address the problem before it arose. I hope you enjoy/enjoyed the episode!

Eeth Koth and Agen Kolar vs Maul and Oppress? Please the duel of the Zabraks

Revenge of the Sith special edition... Grievous: You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku! Kenobi: No shit, genius. We've already fought, like, half a dozen times. We've used exactly the same tricks against each other that we're about to use now, so let's get on with it. Their ROTS fight makes no sense in light of their multiple encounters in TCW. That just really bothers me.

I understand this podcast was made a year ago and now the Clone Wars is officially over, I feel like I can comment on the series in its full totality. This series has me so conflicted. While I'll admit I am not well adversed in knowledge of the EU, have read enough material, like Admiral Thrawn Trilogy, Yuzhen Vong, Dark Empire and a lot of the KOTOR, Clone Wars is one of those series I am so conflicted on. On one hand, Jensaara1 raises a good point: it seemed like the writers at times took a back seat to story and characters for action. As an action junkie, I love the action scenes as they were fast and fluid and showcased how powerful the Jedi were. But it is very much the case of a sandwich with fancy bread and no real substance. Sure, the sequences were fun, but the audience needed emotional investment, the meat of the story. It's this reason why I love the original trilogy, as while the Lightsaber fights weren't so great, the tradeoff was the emotional weight(I.E Vader/Luke's interactions) and tension that was prevalent. And while the series did have that at times, notably when focusing on Ahsoka Tano, I felt latter seasons neglected this. Another point I will concede is that TCW was ambitious, but when it failed; it really failed. I didn't mind Darth Maul coming back, but Savage Opress was super dull and didn't really add much to the story. And finally, probably the worst thing from this series was what they did with Yoda. I really like Dark: Rendezvous. I gave so much development to Yoda during this era, which I really wanted from the prequels. Not recognizing Qi-Gon-Jinn was horrid. You'd think as Grand Master, Yoda would know almost every single Jedi, as he's the literal face of the Order. However, I cannot deny there were some great moments during this series. Ahsoka Tano is amazing. I was like others where I was mixed, but she really grew on me. Hence, why her appearance in Rebels made me happy. Also, certain characters, like Plo-koon(my favorite character in Star Wars) got significant screen time and that was a joy. Also, Captain Rex is awesome. Finally, some story arcs like Bounty Hunters story arc, involving Bobba Fett, waning Windu dead were cool, along with the separatists proposing peace. But if someone placed a proverbial gun at my head and made me choose, I'd honestly pick the 2003 TV series. Action aside, the narrative connects more with the films and we get to experience the war in all of its raw fury. The 08 series, while having great side episodes, but I felt TCW went way overboard. When a series is named the Clone Wars, I expect to see a war. Overall, I apologize for the length, but I just wanted to voice my humble view.

As always Jensaarai1, your well constructed arguements puts you at the head of the class. Very enjoyable. Thank you.

Honestly, I feel like the Barriss dark side thing story was screwed up to begin with. I mean, here you have Anakin and Ahsoka fighting on Cato neimeodia, which could've unfolded into an amazing arc by itself. They make the tipping point in a war that's been practically a stale-mate for 3 freaking years by taking over the planet and severing their supply lines in half. And then you have the actual arc itself, which could've been done soooo much better. You could've had The Republic preparing to put a core Separatist world into something like martial law after they take the planet, and will never give it back to the Separatists. As a protest/way to stop them, barris bombs the hangar to where it's non-lethal, but it prevents them from causing trauma on that world. When the evidence accidently points at Ahsoka as the culprit, she comes out and tells them that ahsoka didn't do this. After being imprisoned for "assault" (for lack of a better word), the separatists attack coruscant (tying into the end of the original micro-series), and when the prison is hit by a stray torpedo or something, barris is accidently busted out, and comes comes out just in time to save her Master, Luminara. But she is ultimately cut down by Grievous, alongside Ahsoka. After exchanging their final words, they both die from their injuries, but they are friends again, and Barris is redeemed.

On Anakin and the Jedi: There was a psychiatrist that suggested that Anakin suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder, a mental disorder that is characterized primarily by more intense emotional states that last longer than normal compared to most people and have a tendency to either put people on pedestals (i.e. viewing Padme as this perfect woman who needs to be protected at all costs) or view them as completely worthless and undeserving (i.e. how Anakin views Separatists because of their perceived betrayal of the Republic). I personally feel this is a good way of describing Anakin as the disorder does explain many of his emotional issues as well as why the Jedi were the last people to pair Anakin with. The problem with the Jedi in the prequel era is that they've been indoctrinated into the order's beliefs in such a way that they have this bizarre disconnect when it comes to emotions. They acknowledge that people have emotions and that these emotions can affect a person's behavior but they tend to have this odd reliance on referring back to the order's dogma when it comes to trying to relate emotions to people. The Jedi Order is effectively a cult that indoctrinates children into the beliefs of the order and do so when they are very young because that is when it is easiest to do so. Now when you consider Anakin who came in much later in life and already had some signs of this disorder developing and what he needs is people who can properly relate to him emotionally and show him how to reign in his emotions and live an emotionally balanced life and is instead dealing with a group of people who have effectively created this disassociation with their emotions. There's no way they can properly connect to Anakin and that just allows his problems to fester until they become the full blown disorder. Now I do believe that things would have been much different if Qui-Gon Jinn had lived simply because Qui-Gon, unlike the other Jedi, did not suffer from this emotional disconnect. He had a much easier time connecting with Anakin by acting like an actual father figure rather than a personal trainer as Obi-Wan and many of the other Jedi later did.

Collin is such a Jedi purist

Hey, the five of you could star in a mini series. I would call it "Jedi Academy", there would be a Hogwarts like school teaching kids how to be Jedi. And you guys would be the teachers! Since GreyJedi did a series about lightsabers, he would be in charge of Lightsaber Design. Jensaarai would be the Duelist Master, since he did a series about combat forms. Evan, Antoine, and Reti would be harder, since they didn't really do a series about anything specific. But I'd see Evan doing the Light Side of the force, Antoine doing the Dark Side of the force, and Reti doing History Of The Galaxy. Don't ask me why I made those decisions, they're just there. And I would be the principal, because it was my idea. And then if anybody can't do an episode, you could have other Versus Series creators come in and guest star as substitute teachers!Then have some of the big fans doing the kids in the classes. It could work....

Agree with Connor’s thoughts on the lightsaber crystals. The dichotomy of synthetic Sith crystals VS Jedi being guided by the universe is so much more interesting than what we got in TCW. Wish this podcast was still going!

For the old jedi order attachments and romantic relationships are one in the same. Look how the order wanted to banish Revan and Bastilla because they saw marriage and love as attachments.

With respect to the Jedi and Attachment. Anakin was pathologically obsessed with Padme. To the point where it was stalkerish and in AoTC, a little bit rapey. It is this that Yoda simply could not address or even I think understand. Anakin's obsession was a complete Outside Context Problem for him. Obi Wan did not help either. He should have seen at some point in AoTC that Anakin was in serious psychological distress regarding both Padme AND his Mother. For an institution with as many rules and regulations as the Jedi Order, with rules that govern love, non-celibacy, upper limits on the age of applicants (what happens to rejected force sensitives anyway?), restrictions on what lightsaber forms someone can be trained in because of Dark Side exposure, one would think they would have in-house psychotherapists. But they dont. After Anakin's little tantrum in the elevator in AoTC, Obi-Wan should have dragged Anakin into the Jedi Temple Counseling Center" With Anakin's personality, it wont take more than an hour for him to spill the beans to there therapist. "You have been having recurring dreams about your mom being gang-raped by sand people? It is probably just a recurring nightmare, but you know what, we should have taken her out of slavery when we found you anyway. Then Qui Gon got killed. I suspect you have some abandonment issues, and these might underpin your obsession with Senator Amidala. Resolving the anxiety these nightmares are causing you might do some good. Lets go to Tatooine, we have FTL travel that will get us there in less than 24 hours, it is no trouble. If anything happened to her, i will help you deal with it. But either way, you are spending the trip on my ship's therapy couch. Once we deal with this, one way or the other, then we can talk about you pursuing a romantic relationship with the senator" "But what about protecting Padme? And Master Kenobi is going assassin hunting, he may need my help!" "This will take three days. We can put her under a protective lockdown until then. Or we can assign Plo Koon to protection duty. Master Kenobi will come with us. He should be with you for this." Had that happened, Anakin might not have gone BugFuck. They are doctrinaire and stagnated. They have spent so much effort to hedge out the kinds of psychological stressors that will turn someone to the dark side, that they have neglected educational and institutional techniques that would permit their members to cope with those stressors when they do arise. To the point that they have to pointedly ignore them and hope for the best when they crop up in their own apprentices.

Call Savge a brute, call him unskilled, but note that he lasted longer against Darth Sidious than 3 Jedi council members.

I think Bariss wanted Ashoka to get exiled from the jedi order because she lost faith in it and wanted her friend not to become corrupted or destroyed by it. The thing is that in a certain way she succeeded as it was her leaving of the jedi order that saved Ashoka from order 66. I just feel they should have made that a little more clear. Also something that bothered me in that episode was the absence of Luminara. She should have been there as it is her apprentice.

With regards to Reti's remark about Barriss Offee not being a good idea for an Inquisitor. Originally, Offee did fall to disrupt the war, but i think that after a few years of being a dark sider, she might eventually crave power for power's sake. Something similar to Anakin or Jacen, turning to the dark for good reasons, but eventually becoming a monster

I had to agree with Matt regarding the flaws of the Jedi in the TCW era. I feel like it was splitting hairs when trying to differentiate between attachments and romance. Romance is the essence of attachment and absolutely changes the way two people think and act.

Overall, I think the series is definitely a net negative lore wise. It's watered down and retconned characterizations are just pathetic in most cases, with exceptions like with Anakin and Padme (I suppose) making them more likeable. The only real positives are typically countered by just as glaring negatives. Anakin is a bit better, Grievous is completely ruined and other examples like that. They make Clones look cooler, but at the expense of making all droids look like inept morons. The main standout positive is that the series helped carry interest for Star Wars, at least on a basic surface level, but if you dig deeper, the problems inside the series itself are generally pretty horrendous.

i really have to disagree with you guys about the yoda arc, that's actually my absolute favorite arc of the series. i really love the idea of yoda (and the council in general) being so close minded to the idea of life after death, i think it's a cool idea that while the jedi are such intellectuals and typically paragons of wisdom, even they can be ignorant of things about the force. i think it's a really interesting idea to show yoda having to venture out to find the secret to becoming a force ghost instead of just learning it in some old jedi text or just being told by someone else who's already passed on. i feel like that's something that someone has to earn, you have to be able to go out and confront someone of your own personal demons before you can maintain your consciousness within the force. and while the evil yoda thing isn't necessarily my favorite aspect of the story, i do like the idea of yoda being so high and mighty about his status within the jedi and believing so strongly in his own morality that he fails to realize at first that he isn't a perfect definition of light, he does have some small sliver of darkness within his soul, and it was time he looked in the mirror and confronted that that darkness existed inside of him. and i think when he did actually recognize is a credit to him, i think some other jedi would've denied that this evil part of them existed for much longer than yoda did. i don't mean to say that you guys are wrong for the record, and i do admit my own bias as a massive clone wars fan (i've binge watched the whole damn thing at least three times now), i'm just expressing and explaining my own disagreement. much respect gentleman

Coming back to this video 8 years later and man have i soured on TCW I’m basically with Connor completely almost

At 1:01:31 they talk about the scene with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the gunship and how Anakin wants to go back for Padme. Matt (I think) says that Obi-Wan tells Anakin that he'll get expelled from Jedi Order because of his romantic relationship with Padme. I don't think it was his relationship status that was going to be reason for his expulsion, it was because he was more than willing to forsake his duty for his own personal reasons. I mean they were chasing down the most powerful war criminal in the galaxy and Anakin was more than willing to give all that up because he wanted to go save his girlfriend. If that had happened in the military he would've most certainly gotten court-martialed for not carrying out his duty.

Another retcon I found out about is with Sora Bulq (presumably) not joining Dooku... they didn't even do anything with him, they just stuck him in the back of shot at the Jedi Temple during one or two episodes across different seasons.

Other than Jensari it looks like no one red Republic commandomor any mando centric story. We see Mandalorian engineers, metal workers, farmers, bar owners, business people, and were specifically told about Keldable has a number of shiprwrights and entrepreneurs.

I think Maul's return was a great arc. It showed him as an eternal pretender, always craving power but sucking at keeping it. In the end, Sidius didn't give a fuck.

Great job Really enjoyed the pod episodes,keep up the good work guys, glad MATT could join you.

These podcasts are amazing way better than any other Star Wars podcasts groups Keep up the good work guys :) And please don't stop any time soon

It's a pity that this is the only video that talks about the retcons made by TCW. I have found a few blogs and forums that go fairly deep into discussions about this but none of them are as in-depth as you five. In my searches it's mostly about the old EU being erased rather than the changes made from the show. I'm thinking about making a blog going down similar lines as this but I'm going to need to read some more. The Dark Horse Clone Wars volumes, the Republic Commando books, Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Rendezvous, Cestus Deception, Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith novelization, and the General Grievous comic being on my list. Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I'm doing a series of videos trying to fix and explain the TCW retcons.

My regret with them bringing back Darth Maul is that we never saw Obi-Wan finally crack and give into the dark side. There was a brief moment of rage in that episode where they both meet, but I feel it was a lost opportunity. In the Phantom Menace, you can clearly see the look of rage on his face when he stares at Darth Maul after the death of his master, and the fact that he just wails on Maul to the point that he barely recovers from the onslaught, so I knew the potential was there. And considering all the lies Obi-Wan tells in A New Hope, I mean, he convinces a kid to murder his own father while making him think he was avenging him instead, that's so twisted that it'd be something you'd expect of Darth Sidious. I feel like there is indeed darkness in Obi-Wan heart, and in the movies, he tends to trend towards the grey, and I feel there should have been a story arc with him exploring the dark side, then pulling back, while gaining insight to the nature of darkness. Darth Maul seemed the perfect vehicle for that story because he was the only person we ever saw that ever got under Obi-Wan's skin.

Ok finally watched the entire video. Great job guys. Very entertaining andi. Cant wait for the next podcast. I both agree and disagree with Jensaarai on the Maul arc. I didnt really have much of a problem with Maul being instantly rejuvenated and then proceeding to go after Kenobi. Where i agree with you is when you started talking about Shades of Grey. I did feel it was a little rushed. While it was cool to see Maul actually being in charge and making a cunning plan that involves the Mandos and all these other criminals, the takeover itself and the Sidious showing up and taking them down a peg (or 3) did seem a little rushed. Also, you are completely right about Kenobi. One of my favorite things about Maul's return was his obsession with Kenobi and the action between them. Especially because we see Kenobi get angry during a fight, and in a later duel actually defeating the duo. I guess we can kind of attribute Maul losing focus on Kenobi to considering the death of Satine to be sufficient vengeance. But still, it would've been better to have Maul vs Kenobi as the main thing for the whole story.

I honestly really enjoyed this I hope they continue this podcast for a long time!

For real, what ever happened to Eeth Koth?

For Ashoka Tano you are so right like the line where she says "no aniken trust me" she doesn't refer to him as master

Awesome video guys, top notch work!

I liked TCW, i thought it was a pretty good show after season 1. To each their own i suppose, I thought 5 and 6 were the best seasons.

Didn't mind Anakin getting a padawan. Ahsoka basically acted as his anchor, keeping him from going over the edge.

You forget that most of the sociopathic things Anakin does are influenced by the darkside

One of the only things that I liked about the show was the clones them selfs, in the films they're just soldiers, in the series there's more depth to those characters, you know, Comander Bly, Comander Gree, Comander Fox, Captain Thyer, Comander Cody and one of my personal favorites Captain Rex

I agree with you Jensaarai on the earlier episodes being better. If I was to do a top 5 favorite episodes, most of my episodes are actually from season 1: Ambush, Cloak of Darkness, and Lair of Grevious. The other two are The Lawless (which I admit I only like for that Maul and Savage vs Sidious duel) and Cat and Mouse from season 2 (because, despite making only 2 appearances, I found Admiral Trench to be an incredible villain)

I see that Grey Jedi has turned into Mr. House. :P Great as always, gentleman.

One of the reasons I support Ahsoka being Anakin's apprentice (and the aftermath of the Bariss Offee "redemption") is because of how it highlights the council's prejudice for Anakin and hotheaded warriors like him. Anakin was, to me at least, the council's weapon at a time that they desperately needed "weapon-class" jedi, hence their choice to give Ahsoka to him in the first place. And then when the weapons do something that suggests that they are getting out of hand, the council's first reaction is to hammer the nail that's standing up, hence their harsh treatment of Ahsoka versus their lenient treatment of Bariss. It also makes the Ahsoka/Anakin moment directly afterward even more powerful because they can bond over how the council really doesn't give a shit about them as people, only weapons to be put down and discarded when they "malfunction."

woooooooooooooooow.......your rant on Grievous was so tame compared to mine....... but yes I give you props nonetheless ~ xD

The lightsaber retcon is something that causes me a great deal of rage. Mostly i guess because the change makes no sense. It makes no sense to have Yoda or Ahsoka along. They completely screwed up the ages or numbers of people going. Originally, you only got your lightsaber when you were chosen as a Padawan. ONLY when you were chosen as a Padawan. The apprentice and the master go to Illum alone. Just the 2. Next, the whole class should NOT be there, for reasons i've already said. Its a knight and his/her Padawan NOT THE WHOLE FREAKING CLASS. They screwed up how they get their hands on the crystals. Originally there was a cave of visions on Ilum. The visions are of your worst fear, i think. Its something terrible anyway. Once you pass the visions, the crystal will call to you. It will reveal itself to you. I give the show credit for at least trying to come up with a test to pass, but they got the test wrong. No cave of terrifying visions = they did it wrong. Next, the ship. The very existence of a ship filled with lightsaber parts annoys me because you build the lightsaber right in the cave where you found your crystal, usually by meditating or something. The droid, you brought up interesting points about weapon masters helping, so i dont have as much of a problem with the droid. But still, he's part of the crew of the ship and so, he irritates me. Funny droid, but serving a pointless roll that could've been better served by a living being or nonexistent since the Jedi Knight who should be the master of the PADAWAN (not the younglings we saw in the episode) could be the instructor on how to build it like Luminara in the 2003 series.

Overall, I enjoyed TCW. It's one of my favorite shows. I recognize there are A LOT of issues and retcons, but this is coming from someone who enjoyed the prequels. I'm in agreement with Reti4 in terms of the Midichlorians. The Plagueis novel redeemed any unsettling thoughts I had. It's wonderful to see GJ91 back in action and all of you together making videos. I've said this on about every episode of the Forcecast, but I'm loving this. I suggested other topics before, but here: 1.) KotOR (Gonna need Grey for this one) 2.) KotOR II: The Sith Lords. Yeah, the younger sibling that doesn't get much attention as the other. I feel this is the better one, however, and it goes down as one of, if not my favorite, game. There is so much to talk about in this game, and, once I get everything going, (Still working on my own VS, btw,) I REALLY want to do a rant on why I love this game, and why I think it's better than the original. It's Xbox release was yesterday, but I think I can get away with making the video in February since it was the PC release. 3.) Holiday Special. ;) 4.) Favorite SW games in general.

I loved the way they wrote Yoda's trails at the end as he never truly doubted himself but instead didn't acknowledge himself. Also I really loved they added Ashoka in as one of Yoda's greatest shames in addition to Dooku. It was clear that Yoda's greatest love was the jedi order and he wants them all to be together again. However he is realistic enough to know it isn't possible. I liked seeing Yoda actually develop a little. The only thing I didn't like about that arc were those sages. They were very annoying.

To the question asked in the video: The problem with the jedi council is that they are too consumed with the unifying force. They spend their time 'looking into the future' instead living in the present. I believe that the death of qui gon jinn hurt them immensely. the 'living force' allowed qui gon to see what was the will of the force in real time.. right now.. instead of looking into the murky future that they KNOW is clouded by the darkside.. The living force and qui gon jinn would have seen thru palpatine's intentions long before the jedi did. Like Antoine said, the jedi were fighting the last war 1000 years ago.. they expected the same old battle with old sith... but Palpatine used their own republic against them by holding it hostage to fear and terrorism (Sounds like a real life politician to me).. Jedi were unprepared to deal with this because they too set in their ways.. too predictable.. Not versatile

Something that I found stupid that they did during TCW, don't know in which season or arc though, is when Yoda is on Korriban for some reason, and he finds the tomb of Darth Bane. I find MANY things wrong with that: 1. Darth Bane's body turned into dust when he tried to take over Zannah's body. 2. Why in the world would any Rule of Two Sith waste the time and put themselves into danger by burying a dead Sith that has no body to bury in the first place. 3. Where did they find an empty, unused tomb that wasn't occupied by a dead Dark Lord on Korriban to even use for Bane. 4. How in the world does Yoda even know who Bane is? The Rule of Two Sith didn't reveal themselves until Sidious, Maul, and Dooku entered the spotlight, and where would the Council even have ANY information on Bane? 5. Even if you did put those four behind you, why not have Bane's spirit actually be there instead of a hologram? I did not have a problem with Mark Hamill as Darth Bane though; you can't help but hear the Joker in his voice and love the fact that he did VA work for Star Wars material. :D

I finished Clone Wars for the first time last week. It was a great ride, although I don’t approve of every decision that was made. I do agree that it portrays Anakin in a much better light (TCW Anakin is who Hayden Christensen should of played all along). I completely agree that some of the episodes in the later seasons do seem to focus on action rather than story, as evidenced by the fact that some episodes ended way too abruptly. Not to mention the fact that there hasn’t been any sort of timeline fix for TCW, which is just baffling considering the confusion the show caused. I agree that most of the retcons were pointless, as it seemed that Lucas simply allowed Dave Filoni to do literally whatever he wanted since the show goes out of its way it seems to retcon previously established material. It’s my personal belief that Leland Chee (for those of you who don’t know he’s the one in charge that makes sure the Star Wars timeline stays as consistent as possible) repeatedly urged Dave not to do more than several of the retcons he did but Dave didn’t listen. On top of that season 6 (with the exception of the Disappeared Arc) should be erased from the show entirely. The season is great the first time you watch it, but the second you turn your brain on literally everything falls apart. This is the case with the order 66 Arc and especially the Yoda Arc. Lastly my biggest issue with TCW is Asoka herself. I’m in no way suggesting that Asoka is a bad character. My issue comes from the fact that her existence creates so many problems in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately in my opinion Asoka shouldn’t exist because of this. However the animation was great (most of the time) the voice work was almost always spot on and it expanded the mythos in good ways. Overall despite some problems I would take both clone wars series as they have their pros and cons. I’d give it an 8 out of 10.

when talking about the mortis arc evan said the most redundant thing i have heard in my life god like deities

Warning - wall of text - TL:DR = Off-Topic rant about Jedi being allowed to love = Jedi Can't experience actual Love without it contradicting everything they stand for. On the topic of the off-topic kind of rant about the Jedi code - the problem isn't with the way that the code is interpreted, the problem is conceptually it's hard to be in a relationship with someone, or have feelings for something, without being attached to it. You love your dog, your dog dies, you get sad, you grieve, you get over it and move on with your life. The problem with denying attachment, it denies human nature from being able to properly develop. So when you actually have a relationship like that without ever having to learn the experience it's devastating... look at Qui Gon in the Jedi Apprentice Series - he was a ball of rage when Tahl was killed because it was the first time that he had to deal with a loss like that. I really think that people - not just Jedi - don't go on killing sprees when things don't go their way and murder their friends that accept you as one of your own just because you're sad. The fact that the "once you start down the dark path it will consume you" only applied to the extreme end of the spectrum because normal rational people - again not just Jedi - don't act like that when bad things happen. Surely what Anakin did was the absolute extreme of a co-dependent person, and your arguments of "well if he just was able to follow the Jedi Code" is kind of a cop out answer. He wasn't able to follow that aspect of it because Anakin is human. Being a Jedi isn't a race - being a Jedi is a following. Like any religion there are varying degree's of how that can be followed with opposite ends of the spectrum of - Westboro baptist Church --> People who just believe in being good to each other --> Atheist. The Jedi Code is perfect if you're able to follow it - but you can't - because people are incapable of being perfect, and here's why with some in universe examples. Anakin was born as a slave, and the love of his mother was the only thing he had in the world. He was freed for the pursuit of a better life - but in doing so he had to deal with the trauma of leaving his mother after that was all he'd ever known, which eventually lead to his mother being murdered by the sand people. He wasn't brought up in a world of safety and security and wasn't enlightened towards this Jedi thought process until he had to leave everything he ever knew. Because he was the "Child of Prophecy" he was shoehorned into accelerated growth during times of war and exposed to things his brain wasn't ready to handle. Not because he wasn't a good Jedi, or a good person, it's just he never had the chance to be exposed to these feelings under the Jedi watch - and given context like you would give to someone who wasn't a Jedi. "Allow yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose" Imagine hearing those words if your child was terminally ill. You can't seperate your feelings like that that easily - and the thought of "if i had the power to do something" or the classic *If I had more X* where X could be money, free time, time with loved ones, i could have done so much more. With the force you can attain that power and Anakin chose to do everything he could to keep that bond because he experienced the pain of losing those relationships and had no one there to comfort him except his wife. The problem is the source material this concept is in was unfortunately written by a putz who can't write human emotions like actual humans feel them, and for the record, while I understand Anakins motives, I still think they are foolish... almost to a ridiculous degree. I feel that just because you're a Jedi - doesn't mean you embody what the Jedi are supposed to represent by default - and subsequently does not make you a worse Jedi as a result. Absolute morality is impossible to attain without imposing on others freedom of ideas. Which is why everything is done democratically and council based within the Jedi Order itself, because again. Qui Gon - revered as one of the greatest Jedi Knights of his era, but as far as the best "Jedi" he was a very ends justify the means type of man who dealt with things practically, a known Maverick who would never be chosen to represent the Jedi Hierarchy because of the way he practiced the Jedi Code itself, but was still very well liked by all of the council members which goes to show you that regardless of how strict a rule-set is, if overall you're a good person and you do things for the good of people - nothing else matters in the eyes of a Jedi - regardless if you're a young upstart that wants to be his apprentice, a 900 year old grand master of the order, or a fellow knight. The reason why Jedi aren't "allowed to love" even though they technically are - leads me to every cliché movie bad guy scenario.... lets just use Air Force 1 for example. Control the most powerful man in the world by threatening his family. Free our terrorist leader or I'll kill your wife in front of you. I don't care if you're Obi wan or the most resolute monk in existence. If you have a relationship with someone that you actually care about. You'll do everything you can to help that person. The life of one is equal in value to the lives of many because to give up on someone you love and forsake all bonds for the greater good is an awful thing which is why in the concept of absolute morality above all else - love is forbidden for a Jedi because you cannot make that call.You make the best decision you can to help the most people you can. They kind of touch on this issue in the Jedi Apprentice series a little when Obi-Wan is on Melidda /Dann (sorry for spelling been a long time since i've read the books) when Obi wan wanted to use the ship to help the children and Qui Gon wanted to use it to escort Tahl back to safety which was the initial point of the mission. Both are acting in the interest of their loves and passions and emotions - yet Obi Wan is the one who was forced to leave the Jedi Order and was reluctantly let back in. But from a Moral standpoint - which Jedi was in the right? Tahl herself even mentioned to Qui Gon that they could have stayed and even hinted that they probably should have because even though the planet didn't officially sanction for Jedi help, the planet was in shambles and really needed help, prejudice forcing their children into war is just awful - you can't turn a blind eye to suffering in a moral world - and you also cant turn your back and risk the safety of someone you love. With all that being said - Matt really hit the nail on the head of this is why Jedi are such interesting characters - because they are human beings doing the best they can to be the best people they can be. They are real. Characters like Sidious and Yoda represent the opposite ends of the spectrum are almost fakey fake to normal people, because normal people would never act like that. We can relate to people like the Skywalkers, Obi Wan, Qui Gon, Dooku. People that you can understand their motives. Not agree with, but understand. Very important to distinguish that point and it's why a story like star wars is just so great because even in a place with lightsabers and shooting lightning from your hands - you can still put yourself in that world. Very entertaining video, and love all of your guy's content. Keep up the good work!

I don't understand why so many people are confused about when Sidious orders Dooku to kill Ventress. For me it was pretty clear. There is the rule of 2 and there is a long history of apprentices teaming up to kill their masters. That's almost the entire plot in Force unleashed. I wasn't confused at all as Sidious says it pretty clearly. Ventress was meant to be an assassin but her power level has far exceeded what is needed for that and is starting to enter the levels of a sith lord. That is a betrayal of the rule of 2. I am more for a somewhat still caring Dooku than a completely cold hearted one. He has a lot of self control and can order her execution with a stoic face but still has emotions. One of his biggest character traits is that is became a sith lord at old age unlike most who became sith when they were much younger and more impressionable. He still retained a lot of his jedi mentalities including a strong sense of loyalty towards those he cares about. He still is a cold hearted asshole who can order the death of loyal servants without batting an eye but unlike Sidious he's not completely heartless and there are individuals that he does value. A headcannon of mine has always been that jedi draw strength from each other. In contrast to the sith who draw power from themselves.

I honestly did not like the portrayal of the Mandalorians in TCW. They weren't true Mandalorians. And the Death Watch aren't either. They're dumbass pacifists and dumbass warmongers, NOT Mandos. It's a 180 to the culture and ways of them. Being Mandalorian isn't something you can change. It's and idea. And you can't force ideas upon people who don't like them. So both parties were in flaw in this arc.

The most annoying thing to me is how the first battle scene in the Clone Wars movie instantly retcons 75 to 90% of the original Clone Wars EU: Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker leading Phase 1 Clone Troopers.

You forgot the Order 66 retcon, the clones should of chose to betray the jedi rather than being mind controlled to kill them. If you compare the mind control of clone troopers vs the clones were simply following orders to the republic they swore to serve. You could tell that their is more character to the clones than simply them being organic droids that switch control with a simple command

I often get Eath Koth confused with Agen Colar

Anakin & Ahsoka is probably my #1 favorite non-romantic pair in existence. And she is basically Anakin, if he was a more balanced individual.

the jedi/anakin discussion starting at 50 minutes was really cool, wish it had gone on even longer. that interesting subject matter is an example of the value the prequels have, such that people are still discussing the concepts and characters involved 10+ years later. the movies are poorly written but there's something valuable in them conceptually that can be drawn out and explored by people who care to think about it

@1:19:00 Puts a whole new spin on that "damned fool idealistic crusade" comment.. ;)

I don't think Grievous in EP. 3 was really bad, he's definitely better than he is in TCW, he pulls off s really smart maneuver on the invisible hand when he's cornered by Anakin and Obi-Wan, to say he was a coward for "running away" from that situation is ridiculous, anyone else, barring Sidious and Yoda would lose that fight, of course he retreated.

With the big debate of Jedi and attachments I would point out that it's not just with romantic relationships, it's all bonds of that intensity that they discourage. So bonds of family, friends, master and students. Anakin can't let things go, he couldn't let his mother go, he couldn't let Ahsoka go. when Obi-wan was faced with prospect of killing Anakin he couldn't. Attachments make it hard to do what must be done and the confusion can lead to anger, frustration and hatred which lead to the dark side. I think this is the reason the Jedi discourage relationships. With Barriss, I think that the fact they have Vader and Ahsoka in Rebels makes more they enough potential plot lines with out adding Barriss in a face to face way. With Yoda being trained in how to preserve his consciousness after death, most of it was unnecessary (travailing to find these priestesses, his fight with his darker side etc) as Obi-won learns this and he remains on Tatooine to watch over Luke and can't travel. but the fact there was more about the force then they knew at the time is great to point out as they all had something more to learn. the moment someone thinks they know it all, that's where arrogance begins. With the crystals, Antoine's comparison with wands from Harry Potter is a good way of thinking about it. I understand wand law and Geo-gramarye. the bond between a wizard and his wand is like the bond between a jedi and his lightsaber. When a wizard finds his wand, the bond they make, enhances their power. the wand has power of it's own and so does the wizard but the bond strengthens them. same with the Jedi and his crystal they both have power but the bond between them strengthens the link to the force in both of them hence making the crystal produce the different colour.

I know this is rather late, but I see Ahsoka as Anakin's padawan as a good thing from a story perspective, it doesn't take away from Anakin's story, if anything it enhances it. Ashoka and her entire arc gave Anakin one more thing that the Council fucked up for him. One more way they treated him as a weapon, great when you can control him, not to be trusted him when you can't. It makes his fall seem way more.... inevitable, I guess. Like that one last straw that broke the camels back, because in ROTS, Anakin goes from "I'm going Sith because I have a problem the Jedi have no solution to" to "From my point of view the Jedi are evil." That makes no sense, but if the situation with Padme is the last and final instance of a long line of the Jedi fucking him over or being of absolutely no help when he needed THEM most, whereas every time that they needed HIM, he's jumped to the rescue.He's having clearly prophetic dreams of his mother in danger? Oh we'll write that off as nothing and prevent you from going to clear your mind about it.Result? Shmi dies.His Padawan he clearly views as a daughter/younger sister is accused of a crime she obviously didn't commit? The jedi council barely says a word in her defence until after she's cleared.Result? Ahsoka justifiably leaves the Order. Because they betrayed her.Anakin has (yet again) prophetic dreams about someone he cares about dying. Dreams that have been proven right before. Response? Oh, just get over it and let go. I mean, we have thousands of years of healing techniques we can show you. But no, just run along and get over it.Result? "I have had fucking enough of this, and the nice guy gloves are coming off. I am going to do everything necessary to keep my family safe. If that is killing the entire Jedi Order, then so be it. You've fucked me and my family over for the last time."Which by the way, spins an entirely new perspective on Operation Knightfall. "I'm not JUST doing this because I have to to save my wife, it's also cause you left my daughter to rot."

***** +EvanNova95 Listening to this after watching Lucian Dray vs Eeth Koth is hilarious when you guys hint towards your collab.

I honestly think maul being retconed back to life was a good call. But I respect your opinion and used to agree

I just wanted to say one thing in episode 3 when grievous is coughing isn't that because mace windu force grips him at the end of Star Wars clone wars and it damages his lungs as a result of the force grip

1. Grievous was always coughing because Windu crushed his rib cage. 2. Grievous defeated multiple Jedi, yes, but note that they were all exhausted.

Ahsoka's character is great. And I like that she's Anakins Padawan. It made his character better.

In this video jensaarai mentions a video with Barriss offee but 5 years later I still haven’t seen it is their a reason for that?

If 1. TCW was not given higher status and had to follow the same rules as the rest of the EU 2. Didn't act too much like a live action show 3. Either got Grevious right or Didn't show him at all/did a similar thing with force using characters it wouldn't be so hated

The way I look at Anakin from the Clone Wars and Anakin from the novels: Two different men in different universes. Anakin from the Clone Wars series is the man Anakin from the novels, should have became.

Siri should’ve been in TCW!!!

A topic that I would be interested to hear out from you guys is how do you feel about Force users such as Revan or Kreia, who fly between the frontier of light and dark side? Also, how relevant do you consider Kreia´s teachings to be?

Of the five Jedi that Grievous fights and totally beats in his first aperiance, I was only able to name four, Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura and K'kruhk, what's the name of the other one?

i think it would be amazing if you guys did a "team up vid" where you all work on one versus togther pooling your editing and writing skills together with a judgment "counsel" where you all get a vote, luke skywalker vs anakin skywalker or whole skywalker force using family vs all movie sith?

What do you guys think of Darth Maul surviving being cut in half and falling hundreds of feet in TPM? For the producers of TCW to basically resurrect Maul from the dead. Is it actual Canon that he survived the fall on Naboo? Or was it an idea to have Maul survive because of his popularity with younger audiences, to see him in action?

I never thought that Antoine teaching me parenting on this podcast.

Reti4, when it is a flaw of the order itself as seen across the vast majority of its incarnations then one must assume that it is not individual writers and creators that are at fault but rather that the Jedi order is flawed as an organization. You conflate the order with the philosophy when the order is made up of people, people who by default are flawed. This not bad thing, and there are individuals that are paragons of the Jedi philosophy, they are just exceedingly rare.

Well done gentlemen, another fun and interesting podcast and defiantly the funniest one. Good to hear from you again Matt, glad your not an AI or dead haha. I would have thought at least one of you would have heard rumours about a star wars spin-off movie either during the new 7,8 and 9 movies or afterwards. This new spin-off will be focused on either a bounty hunter story line, Yoda's time on Degobha or Kenobi's time after order 66 while watching over Luke. What do you guys think of these rumours ? If this did happen what would you prefer the spin-off story line to be ?

Jensaarai I can't agree with you more with the script about grievous they turned a terminator/ psycho killer into a cowardly coughing and spluttering villain yet again well said

FINALLY! Someone agrees with me on Cloak of Deception!

The Bariss Dark Side story certainly made very little sense, but also sort of silly that for the vast majority of the Order's existence the Jedi were defenders fighting for the Republic, not simply, glorified monk/cops.

The title for these videos makes sence because if there trully WAS a Star Wars Council it would be you guys.

0:23 He has returned from the neatherealms of the force.

I love the idea of Barriss Offee entering Rebels as an Inquisitor!!

I loved the Yoda arch... i thought it was interesting. I'm very happy that it is canon. It brought back the mysteriousness of the force.

I like these very much :3

I hated the fact that they completely forgot about adega. Or intentionally left it out. I mean the jedi order still took crystals from adega at this point. Plus, they called them kyber crystals. THEY WERE GOD D**MN ILLUM CRYSTALS!!! Sometimes the kyber crystal will splinter off like it did for kit fisto, depa billaba, and caleb dume (aka KANAN GOD D**MN JARRUS) but not all lightsaber crystals are fragments of the kyber crystal.

For a time I thought she was the female inquisitor seen in trailers for season 2 of Rebels, but it appears the Seventh Sister is an entirely new character.

Reti and Evan you to have good points on the force but Jensaari is correct the force is the user the person is the tool

Either of you, Galen Marek vs Darth Malgus! DO IT!

I also need to add, this show was meant to aim to kids originally, and to be fun. It was a rather fun ride. I doubt it was ever meant to be a masterpiece of Star Wars. It did what all shows should do, it progressed and got better as it went on. It introduced some awesome characters into the lore like Ashoka and Rex. I also think that its focus on Clones was one of its great strengths. It provided a much more human side to the war than the mini series did. It was less of a Jedi story and more a story of the galaxy in general. It helped create a new and unique world, not limited by the confines of the EU, and was rather creative in some of the things it did. Also, while in general the Clone Wars part of the old EU was rather good, their are some parts of the EU that is just silly. It is also just so massive that it differs less casual star wars fans, were as TCW appealed to both hard core fans and the more casual ones. It was a great addition to the Star Wars Universe.

Regarding the dark dicibel bit, lucas apparently read the comics, liked vos, and wanted the arc to turn him into the guy from Said comics.

with most of the issues here I agree with you guys. my only question is: why does grey jedi seem like he's more interested I being right rather than having his opinion add to the rest of the conversation. he also seems very uninterested in the whole thing in general. the one thing that I noticed was in the Anakin conversation as to why he was given a padawan. there was pressure to appoint Anakin to the council immediately after his knighting. the more senior members of the council were against this whole-heartedly, however with the pressure coming down from palpatine and the senate, giving him a padawan was a way to pacify both parties

Great video guys, keep up the good work :)