The fifth installment in The Council Forcecast, the official Versus Video community podcast, this time discussing the various retcons made by Star Wars: The Clone Wars.
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@EvanNova959 жыл бұрын
After much delay, the TCW Retcons Episode has arrived. We hope you guys enjoy
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
After much delay, Evan announced this. ;)
@Seadansr19 жыл бұрын
Hey Evan, I'd like to cordially invite you to check out the Star Wars club I am a part of. DarkJediBrotherhood.com We been active well over a decade and have built a.massive history of characters that we play as. Check it out. Brimstone id #8649
@johnfedd26169 жыл бұрын
I'm feeling like righting a book about something from the Star Wars realm. It will MOST LIKELY be published... Under certain terms mainly becuz of copyrights. What would u like the subject to be. I know you live in California so if you could answer me by 12/30/14 that would be great!! May the force be with you.
@justinlafser9169 жыл бұрын
Reti4 You have a REALLY cool voice.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Justin Lafser Thank you very much.
@Superultramegaa199 жыл бұрын
I think the best representation of Anakin is the Episode 3 novelization. There Anakin always tried to avoid talking about his murder of the sand people and felt extreme guilt for his murder of Dooku. He was actually a really nice guy who was just caught up in the Jedi Council's unfairness and issues. In the movie he was whining about not being a master because he wanted the title. In the book, he's trying to get a cure for his dying wife and he needs to search the archives to find one! That's brilliant writing! He even said to Palpatine he didn't WANT to join the dark side, he just wanted to stop Mace from killing him. Only after a lot of coaxing did he join and he didn't at first because the Jedi were his friends. Only until Palpatine pointed out they weren't his friends since they manipulated him and constantly put him in difficult positions. I actually felt legitimately bad when he joined the dark side. Even Obi-Wan was better handled in the book. He actually sheds a tear and admits they should have never put him in this position and now he will never trust them again and he doesn't know if Anakin SHOULD! Ok I'm done now this was a lot longer than I thought it would be Jesus. This is my General Grievous.
@michaelkarimian75389 жыл бұрын
Superultramegaa TheRageQuitGamer Without the shadow of a doubt. :)
@mrmackellar33378 жыл бұрын
Isn't that all in the movie aswell
@Professional_Dirtbag_Hippie8 жыл бұрын
Luke- You knew my father? Obi-wan- Oh yes. The last time I saw him he had just killed a large amount of diplomats, children, and Jedi. Luke- What?! Obi-wan- And then he killed your mother and we had a crazy lightsaber duel inside a volcano and it ended because I was standing on a hill and he jumped so I cut his arm and legs off. Luke where are you going? Luke- Getting the fuck out of here!
@XTHHedgehog6 жыл бұрын
And that's why he lied so much 😂😂
@Jedi_Spartan5 жыл бұрын
So your calling Nute Gunray diplomatic?
@AntoineBandele9 жыл бұрын
Dem damn retcons.
@onenerd95739 жыл бұрын
Some are good, some are meh... I'm of the opinion that the show should only be considered part of the new canon, and not part of Legends.
@Necronius949 жыл бұрын
You missed a retcon: changing Korriban's name to Morriband!
@onenerd95739 жыл бұрын
Necronius94 That seems like such a minor retcon though, they even sound similar...
@timt68199 жыл бұрын
Yeah but it's so unnecessary Korriband is perfectly fine
@onenerd95739 жыл бұрын
Tim T I agree, Korriban is as good a name as any, but I just don't see the change being all that important, or at least it shouldn't be the cause of random arguments. They both sound sinister, as the Sith homeworld should, and while yes, it was unnecessary, it wasn't the worst thing that they could have done. (Not saying that that's what you were implying, only that I've had this discussion before.)
@wjb-wt6sc9 жыл бұрын
Most excellent council masters, I have said before that I prefer Dark Horse over TCW any day all day but TCW had its moments. I absolutely abhor the portrayal of Quinlan Vos but I love that they revived Eeth Koth. I wholeheartedly agree with general consensus that the retcon of Dark Rendezvous was horrifying, my reasons are different though; The retcon of Dark Rendezvous completely obliterated Dooku's character. Dark Rendezvous was proof positive that Dooku was not the Sith Lord he fancied himself to be , it revealed his fears and doubts about the path he had taken. DR presented a side of Dooku that TCW utterly failed to do while also fleshing out more of Yoda's character (i.e the love, affection, and forgiveness he felt for Dooku despite his wrongs). DR made you question whether Dooku was truly evil or just misguided and opened up the possibilities never before thought of. In short ,DR solidified Both Dooku and Yoda has Sentients dealing with the same problems as any other sentient and not just a malevolent sorcerer and a benevolent sage unbothered by the experiences of other sentients.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Agreed on all accounts.
@goroakechi61262 жыл бұрын
I don’t know. Call this extremely late, but I think DR was an outlier of Dooku’s character if anything. To quote the ROTS novelization (which predates TCW), “(Dooku) is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him, or to him. Very possibly, he is what he is because other beings just aren’t very…interesting. Or even, in a sense, entirely real. For Dooku, other beings are simply abstractions. Simple schematic sketches which fall into two distinct categories. The first category is assets. Beings who can be used to serve his various interests, such as, for most of his life, and to some extent even now, the Jedi. Particularly Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom regarded him as their ‘friend’ for so long that it had effectively blinded them to the truth of his activities.” I would continue, but I don’t want this to stretch on. Point is, I think the sympathy to Dooku was either stopped after DR, or contained to DR. By 2005, he had been numbed of any sense of care or understanding of it, save for Qui Gon and Obi Wan.
@ChosenOne-il4bm6 ай бұрын
What’s the difference
@mandalorethemaximum14089 жыл бұрын
Quinlin Vos has gone from the Jedi that killed Volfe Karkko to "The Surfer Dude"
@ChosenOne-il4bm4 ай бұрын
I like the surfer dude more
@FrankMillersEvilHat18 жыл бұрын
I wish that they actually explain why Barriss went cray cray like you know...character development!
@thephezzaniferengi14568 жыл бұрын
+FrankMillersEvilHat1 You know, women.
@yrooxrksvi71422 жыл бұрын
Nope, Filoni needed forced drama.
@Scrubwick7 жыл бұрын
Luke: Tell me about my father Kenobi: Good man, flammable
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Note to our fine viewers, there are points in this one where we might sound like we're getting heated/irritated with one another, it's not the case *at all* we just made it sound like that by accident for some reason. I think the worst example comes from me in Matt and I's off topic debate, I say something like "Anyone with any sense understands that". I'm referring to the characters but it sounds like I'm insulting Matt. That is NOT the case, I'm just an idiot and rarely get across what I'm trying to say. It might be that nobody sees any issue, but when editing I thought it might be a possible reaction so I wanted to preemptively address the problem before it arose. I hope you enjoy/enjoyed the episode!
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
***** As far as we're concerned they're the same character. Only the original Clone Wars series and comic book versions of Grievous hold any interest for us.
@kirbyspencer9 жыл бұрын
I thought the point you were discussing was off topic, but its a very interesting one nonetheless that doesn't get much coverage. I am looking forward to some sort of video on this?? Perhaps more videos on subjects like this also :) Perhaps a code discussion?? Perhaps a talk on how individual Jedi interpret the code in their own way? Now that would be some great viewing :D
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Kirby Spencer I don't know whether you've seen Greyjedi91's latest video but he mentions that we're going to be doing some debate videos as soon as he's available to record them. We'll eventually cover every topic under the sun and I can guarantee the code will come up at some point.
@kirbyspencer9 жыл бұрын
Reti4 Just spotted it! :D So yes, I shall certainly look forward to those then.
@TheZackBriggs9 жыл бұрын
I could feel the tense discussion at various points. Challenging eachother's points of view is what makes these videos interesting.
@Professional_Dirtbag_Hippie8 жыл бұрын
Eeth Koth and Agen Kolar vs Maul and Oppress? Please the duel of the Zabraks
@fairytalejediftj70419 жыл бұрын
Revenge of the Sith special edition... Grievous: You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku! Kenobi: No shit, genius. We've already fought, like, half a dozen times. We've used exactly the same tricks against each other that we're about to use now, so let's get on with it. Their ROTS fight makes no sense in light of their multiple encounters in TCW. That just really bothers me.
@fairytalejediftj70419 жыл бұрын
As for Bariss, wasn't Ahsoka facing a death sentence? Presumably Bariss got executed when she was revealed as the real bomber (It wasn't a Jedi only trial after Tarkin took it over.)
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Yeah that kind of thing is an unfortunate side effect of getting more material sometimes. In my opinion the material we get as a result is worth the discrepancies they occasionally cause but I can see why they irritate you. A big one people like to bring up is the existence of the Sith post RotJ. I have no issue with it because the alternative is coming up with a new threat for the Jedi that can never live up to previous material.
@analothor3 жыл бұрын
I know it's fucking stupidly written
@jsb6975.ah.crapbaskets Жыл бұрын
@@Reti4 I never minded the continued existence of the Sith post RotJ. You can't really destroy an ideology, especially one that's as prominent in galactic history as the Sith. Some corrupt Force-sensitive was always gonna revive that Order eventually. I just take the events of RotJ as the end of the Banite Sith.
@Avarn3888 жыл бұрын
I understand this podcast was made a year ago and now the Clone Wars is officially over, I feel like I can comment on the series in its full totality. This series has me so conflicted. While I'll admit I am not well adversed in knowledge of the EU, have read enough material, like Admiral Thrawn Trilogy, Yuzhen Vong, Dark Empire and a lot of the KOTOR, Clone Wars is one of those series I am so conflicted on. On one hand, Jensaara1 raises a good point: it seemed like the writers at times took a back seat to story and characters for action. As an action junkie, I love the action scenes as they were fast and fluid and showcased how powerful the Jedi were. But it is very much the case of a sandwich with fancy bread and no real substance. Sure, the sequences were fun, but the audience needed emotional investment, the meat of the story. It's this reason why I love the original trilogy, as while the Lightsaber fights weren't so great, the tradeoff was the emotional weight(I.E Vader/Luke's interactions) and tension that was prevalent. And while the series did have that at times, notably when focusing on Ahsoka Tano, I felt latter seasons neglected this. Another point I will concede is that TCW was ambitious, but when it failed; it really failed. I didn't mind Darth Maul coming back, but Savage Opress was super dull and didn't really add much to the story. And finally, probably the worst thing from this series was what they did with Yoda. I really like Dark: Rendezvous. I gave so much development to Yoda during this era, which I really wanted from the prequels. Not recognizing Qi-Gon-Jinn was horrid. You'd think as Grand Master, Yoda would know almost every single Jedi, as he's the literal face of the Order. However, I cannot deny there were some great moments during this series. Ahsoka Tano is amazing. I was like others where I was mixed, but she really grew on me. Hence, why her appearance in Rebels made me happy. Also, certain characters, like Plo-koon(my favorite character in Star Wars) got significant screen time and that was a joy. Also, Captain Rex is awesome. Finally, some story arcs like Bounty Hunters story arc, involving Bobba Fett, waning Windu dead were cool, along with the separatists proposing peace. But if someone placed a proverbial gun at my head and made me choose, I'd honestly pick the 2003 TV series. Action aside, the narrative connects more with the films and we get to experience the war in all of its raw fury. The 08 series, while having great side episodes, but I felt TCW went way overboard. When a series is named the Clone Wars, I expect to see a war. Overall, I apologize for the length, but I just wanted to voice my humble view.
@UndrState9 жыл бұрын
As always Jensaarai1, your well constructed arguements puts you at the head of the class. Very enjoyable. Thank you.
@mitchellcrawford58729 жыл бұрын
Agree more, I could not.
@falc0n7179 жыл бұрын
Honestly, I feel like the Barriss dark side thing story was screwed up to begin with. I mean, here you have Anakin and Ahsoka fighting on Cato neimeodia, which could've unfolded into an amazing arc by itself. They make the tipping point in a war that's been practically a stale-mate for 3 freaking years by taking over the planet and severing their supply lines in half. And then you have the actual arc itself, which could've been done soooo much better. You could've had The Republic preparing to put a core Separatist world into something like martial law after they take the planet, and will never give it back to the Separatists. As a protest/way to stop them, barris bombs the hangar to where it's non-lethal, but it prevents them from causing trauma on that world. When the evidence accidently points at Ahsoka as the culprit, she comes out and tells them that ahsoka didn't do this. After being imprisoned for "assault" (for lack of a better word), the separatists attack coruscant (tying into the end of the original micro-series), and when the prison is hit by a stray torpedo or something, barris is accidently busted out, and comes comes out just in time to save her Master, Luminara. But she is ultimately cut down by Grievous, alongside Ahsoka. After exchanging their final words, they both die from their injuries, but they are friends again, and Barris is redeemed.
@Nist4989 жыл бұрын
On Anakin and the Jedi: There was a psychiatrist that suggested that Anakin suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder, a mental disorder that is characterized primarily by more intense emotional states that last longer than normal compared to most people and have a tendency to either put people on pedestals (i.e. viewing Padme as this perfect woman who needs to be protected at all costs) or view them as completely worthless and undeserving (i.e. how Anakin views Separatists because of their perceived betrayal of the Republic). I personally feel this is a good way of describing Anakin as the disorder does explain many of his emotional issues as well as why the Jedi were the last people to pair Anakin with. The problem with the Jedi in the prequel era is that they've been indoctrinated into the order's beliefs in such a way that they have this bizarre disconnect when it comes to emotions. They acknowledge that people have emotions and that these emotions can affect a person's behavior but they tend to have this odd reliance on referring back to the order's dogma when it comes to trying to relate emotions to people. The Jedi Order is effectively a cult that indoctrinates children into the beliefs of the order and do so when they are very young because that is when it is easiest to do so. Now when you consider Anakin who came in much later in life and already had some signs of this disorder developing and what he needs is people who can properly relate to him emotionally and show him how to reign in his emotions and live an emotionally balanced life and is instead dealing with a group of people who have effectively created this disassociation with their emotions. There's no way they can properly connect to Anakin and that just allows his problems to fester until they become the full blown disorder. Now I do believe that things would have been much different if Qui-Gon Jinn had lived simply because Qui-Gon, unlike the other Jedi, did not suffer from this emotional disconnect. He had a much easier time connecting with Anakin by acting like an actual father figure rather than a personal trainer as Obi-Wan and many of the other Jedi later did.
@nugs19519 жыл бұрын
Collin is such a Jedi purist
@GreenMarine39 жыл бұрын
Yeah, that's what kind of bothers me but, everyone has there own opinion.
@KeisteSnipes369 жыл бұрын
I agree solely. He has opinions and had a right to them, but to maintain purity and in attachments from significant others is nearly impossible and there is rather evidence of jedi perusing conceiving purely for the offspring being for utilitarian purposes. Take shatele shan's son. Talk about mommy issues. If that is what it means to be a pure jedi then you fail the duties of being a caring mother for morality to the point where you could be in the "gray" and be a valiant warrior/introspective individual, but continue to uphold some of the things that the sith idolize like individual desires and needs which those could be your families or loves ones.
@FellsApprentice6 жыл бұрын
He is, and it's so clear. The concept that the Jedi might be at all wrong in their actual beliefs is so far out of his way of thinking that it's sad.
@josiahjenksisawesome9 жыл бұрын
Hey, the five of you could star in a mini series. I would call it "Jedi Academy", there would be a Hogwarts like school teaching kids how to be Jedi. And you guys would be the teachers! Since GreyJedi did a series about lightsabers, he would be in charge of Lightsaber Design. Jensaarai would be the Duelist Master, since he did a series about combat forms. Evan, Antoine, and Reti would be harder, since they didn't really do a series about anything specific. But I'd see Evan doing the Light Side of the force, Antoine doing the Dark Side of the force, and Reti doing History Of The Galaxy. Don't ask me why I made those decisions, they're just there. And I would be the principal, because it was my idea. And then if anybody can't do an episode, you could have other Versus Series creators come in and guest star as substitute teachers!Then have some of the big fans doing the kids in the classes. It could work....
@owenedward1446 ай бұрын
Agree with Connor’s thoughts on the lightsaber crystals. The dichotomy of synthetic Sith crystals VS Jedi being guided by the universe is so much more interesting than what we got in TCW. Wish this podcast was still going!
@kingjonstarkgeryan85733 жыл бұрын
For the old jedi order attachments and romantic relationships are one in the same. Look how the order wanted to banish Revan and Bastilla because they saw marriage and love as attachments.
@comradetortoise9 жыл бұрын
With respect to the Jedi and Attachment. Anakin was pathologically obsessed with Padme. To the point where it was stalkerish and in AoTC, a little bit rapey. It is this that Yoda simply could not address or even I think understand. Anakin's obsession was a complete Outside Context Problem for him. Obi Wan did not help either. He should have seen at some point in AoTC that Anakin was in serious psychological distress regarding both Padme AND his Mother. For an institution with as many rules and regulations as the Jedi Order, with rules that govern love, non-celibacy, upper limits on the age of applicants (what happens to rejected force sensitives anyway?), restrictions on what lightsaber forms someone can be trained in because of Dark Side exposure, one would think they would have in-house psychotherapists. But they dont. After Anakin's little tantrum in the elevator in AoTC, Obi-Wan should have dragged Anakin into the Jedi Temple Counseling Center" With Anakin's personality, it wont take more than an hour for him to spill the beans to there therapist. "You have been having recurring dreams about your mom being gang-raped by sand people? It is probably just a recurring nightmare, but you know what, we should have taken her out of slavery when we found you anyway. Then Qui Gon got killed. I suspect you have some abandonment issues, and these might underpin your obsession with Senator Amidala. Resolving the anxiety these nightmares are causing you might do some good. Lets go to Tatooine, we have FTL travel that will get us there in less than 24 hours, it is no trouble. If anything happened to her, i will help you deal with it. But either way, you are spending the trip on my ship's therapy couch. Once we deal with this, one way or the other, then we can talk about you pursuing a romantic relationship with the senator" "But what about protecting Padme? And Master Kenobi is going assassin hunting, he may need my help!" "This will take three days. We can put her under a protective lockdown until then. Or we can assign Plo Koon to protection duty. Master Kenobi will come with us. He should be with you for this." Had that happened, Anakin might not have gone BugFuck. They are doctrinaire and stagnated. They have spent so much effort to hedge out the kinds of psychological stressors that will turn someone to the dark side, that they have neglected educational and institutional techniques that would permit their members to cope with those stressors when they do arise. To the point that they have to pointedly ignore them and hope for the best when they crop up in their own apprentices.
@Storyman097 жыл бұрын
This is awesome, has me doubled over laughing. Seriously, they could have avoided A LOT of problems if they had just had a therapist on hand. It's almost negligence that they don't.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
Call Savge a brute, call him unskilled, but note that he lasted longer against Darth Sidious than 3 Jedi council members.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Sidious was toying with Savage and Maul, even at the end of the fight where he ramped up a little bit he clearly wasn't going full out against them. Not unless Savage and Maul let Kenobi kick their arse anyway.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
Sidious showed signs of fatigue when he was fighting Maul and Savage, that's why he got them separated from each other. I do believe that Sidious was toying with Savage until he saw that Savage was much stronger than he was, referring to when he toyed with Savage one-on-one and blocked his attack and noticed that Savage was pushing through, because after that, Sidious started getting faster and more aggressive. Also, I counted about 38-39 seconds in Maul's and Sidious's one-on-one duel, where I believe that Sidious stopped holding back. 38-39 seconds! You know that that is just a little shorter than Windu's and Palpatine's duel. Plus, unless the pair has been with each other for a long time, it's extremely hard to effectively coordinate an attack on one individual, especially on an absolute master of syresu like Kenobi. Savage, like you said, killed Adi Gallia, whom I found out recently was a council member during episodes 1 and 2. To me that' sand impressive feat.
@MrG582KYX9 жыл бұрын
I do believe Savage is underrated by people BUT he seemed like he was progressing too much in the force while training with Dooku for two weeks and we didn't even see Maul training him on screen. I think his potential in terms of his force abilities would have rivalled Jedi council members if he hit his peak. Like Maul, if his skills were developed from an early age to when he appeared in the clone wars Savage and Maul for that matter could have been both the greatest Sith of the era, up there with Darth Bane. But they were not taught the skills and didn't developed them enough to be at their maximum potential. I think Reti4 will agree with me on that one (other wise I will look like a fool).
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
If you notice, Sidious became extremely fast and aggressive when Savage started to power through his defense. The reason that savage was beaten so easily was because at that moment, Sidious decided to stop holding back.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
Sidious could obviously defeat Savage. He's Darth freaking Sidious, but despite what you said, when Savage locked blade Sidious, he wasn't pushing Sidious back, he was pushing him down, kind of like Anakin when he was trying to strangle Obi wan, when Sidious saw that he could not overpower him, he, like Obi Wan, would distract him with an unexpected attack, and resort to superior speed and skill, he realized that he had underestimated Savages strength and stepped it up a knotch. If you look carefully, you can see Sidious showing signs of difficulty when Savage was pushing him down. And Sidious laughs not because Savage was an "easy" kill, but because he killed him before Darth Maul had the chance to interfere.
@MrMarinus188 жыл бұрын
I think Bariss wanted Ashoka to get exiled from the jedi order because she lost faith in it and wanted her friend not to become corrupted or destroyed by it. The thing is that in a certain way she succeeded as it was her leaving of the jedi order that saved Ashoka from order 66. I just feel they should have made that a little more clear. Also something that bothered me in that episode was the absence of Luminara. She should have been there as it is her apprentice.
@matthewwhite45649 жыл бұрын
With regards to Reti's remark about Barriss Offee not being a good idea for an Inquisitor. Originally, Offee did fall to disrupt the war, but i think that after a few years of being a dark sider, she might eventually crave power for power's sake. Something similar to Anakin or Jacen, turning to the dark for good reasons, but eventually becoming a monster
@MPPRODUCTIONSger7 жыл бұрын
Matthew White I know I'm quite late to the party but actually I think it could work even if she doesn't crave power for powers sake. I think it would be an interesting concepts that she wants to uphold peace and order, just in the twisted way of the darkside.
@matthewwhite45647 жыл бұрын
That could work quite well to
@XalenMaru9 жыл бұрын
I had to agree with Matt regarding the flaws of the Jedi in the TCW era. I feel like it was splitting hairs when trying to differentiate between attachments and romance. Romance is the essence of attachment and absolutely changes the way two people think and act.
@an0rangutan4 жыл бұрын
Overall, I think the series is definitely a net negative lore wise. It's watered down and retconned characterizations are just pathetic in most cases, with exceptions like with Anakin and Padme (I suppose) making them more likeable. The only real positives are typically countered by just as glaring negatives. Anakin is a bit better, Grievous is completely ruined and other examples like that. They make Clones look cooler, but at the expense of making all droids look like inept morons. The main standout positive is that the series helped carry interest for Star Wars, at least on a basic surface level, but if you dig deeper, the problems inside the series itself are generally pretty horrendous.
@an0rangutan4 жыл бұрын
@@Jensaarai1 To me, these are just two examples taken from an unfortunately long list, there's some cases where TCW did good, improved characters or story elements or introduced interesting concepts, but it seems like most audiences of TCW overlook or ignore everything wrong and just focus on the good, which is fine in a way, I suppose I kind of admire seeing only the good parts, but they'll often chastise anyone who tries to point out it's flaws as if it's the best thing Star Wars has to offer and I just can't accept that with all that it messed up, it's far too much for me to just ignore it and truly enjoy the overall show. Either way, I do appreciate the show to an extent for getting more people (especially the younger generations) introduced and interested in Star Wars so they can come to their own conclusions. Anyway, you guys all keep up the good work, it's always so interesting seeing the group of you discuss things you're all knowledgeable about while expressing your own differing opinions and views, as well as all of your solo content analyzing characters and explaining things, so thanks for all the quality content.
@WoodstockProd8 жыл бұрын
i really have to disagree with you guys about the yoda arc, that's actually my absolute favorite arc of the series. i really love the idea of yoda (and the council in general) being so close minded to the idea of life after death, i think it's a cool idea that while the jedi are such intellectuals and typically paragons of wisdom, even they can be ignorant of things about the force. i think it's a really interesting idea to show yoda having to venture out to find the secret to becoming a force ghost instead of just learning it in some old jedi text or just being told by someone else who's already passed on. i feel like that's something that someone has to earn, you have to be able to go out and confront someone of your own personal demons before you can maintain your consciousness within the force. and while the evil yoda thing isn't necessarily my favorite aspect of the story, i do like the idea of yoda being so high and mighty about his status within the jedi and believing so strongly in his own morality that he fails to realize at first that he isn't a perfect definition of light, he does have some small sliver of darkness within his soul, and it was time he looked in the mirror and confronted that that darkness existed inside of him. and i think when he did actually recognize is a credit to him, i think some other jedi would've denied that this evil part of them existed for much longer than yoda did. i don't mean to say that you guys are wrong for the record, and i do admit my own bias as a massive clone wars fan (i've binge watched the whole damn thing at least three times now), i'm just expressing and explaining my own disagreement. much respect gentleman
@caleboch81817 ай бұрын
Coming back to this video 8 years later and man have i soured on TCW I’m basically with Connor completely almost
@byroncloete47729 жыл бұрын
At 1:01:31 they talk about the scene with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the gunship and how Anakin wants to go back for Padme. Matt (I think) says that Obi-Wan tells Anakin that he'll get expelled from Jedi Order because of his romantic relationship with Padme. I don't think it was his relationship status that was going to be reason for his expulsion, it was because he was more than willing to forsake his duty for his own personal reasons. I mean they were chasing down the most powerful war criminal in the galaxy and Anakin was more than willing to give all that up because he wanted to go save his girlfriend. If that had happened in the military he would've most certainly gotten court-martialed for not carrying out his duty.
@brothersmakingmovies9 жыл бұрын
Never thought of it that way before, but it makes a lot of sense....
@Yang_12302 жыл бұрын
And that’s Anakin character he puts loyalty over anything else first if obi wan fell out that gun-ship anakin would’ve let dooku to escape to get obi wan instead Basically if Anakin thinks he has your loyalty he will go to any extent to save you because he thinks you you’re just as loyal to him which Palpatine took advantage
@Jedi_Spartan3 жыл бұрын
Another retcon I found out about is with Sora Bulq (presumably) not joining Dooku... they didn't even do anything with him, they just stuck him in the back of shot at the Jedi Temple during one or two episodes across different seasons.
@ironinquisitor36562 жыл бұрын
I personally just retcon that in my headcanon as that being another Weequay jedi.
@kingjonstarkgeryan85733 жыл бұрын
Other than Jensari it looks like no one red Republic commandomor any mando centric story. We see Mandalorian engineers, metal workers, farmers, bar owners, business people, and were specifically told about Keldable has a number of shiprwrights and entrepreneurs.
@NotOrdinaryInGames9 жыл бұрын
I think Maul's return was a great arc. It showed him as an eternal pretender, always craving power but sucking at keeping it. In the end, Sidius didn't give a fuck.
@mrmackellar33378 жыл бұрын
Not to mention him and savage are great together
@kal02479 жыл бұрын
Great job Really enjoyed the pod episodes,keep up the good work guys, glad MATT could join you.
@JamesKmet9 жыл бұрын
These podcasts are amazing way better than any other Star Wars podcasts groups Keep up the good work guys :) And please don't stop any time soon
@AntoineBandele9 жыл бұрын
:-D
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Thanks, we're glad you enjoy them. We don't intend to stop as long as there are topics to discuss.
@GAdmThrawn8 жыл бұрын
It's a pity that this is the only video that talks about the retcons made by TCW. I have found a few blogs and forums that go fairly deep into discussions about this but none of them are as in-depth as you five. In my searches it's mostly about the old EU being erased rather than the changes made from the show. I'm thinking about making a blog going down similar lines as this but I'm going to need to read some more. The Dark Horse Clone Wars volumes, the Republic Commando books, Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Rendezvous, Cestus Deception, Shatterpoint, Revenge of the Sith novelization, and the General Grievous comic being on my list. Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
@ironinquisitor36565 жыл бұрын
I'm doing a series of videos trying to fix and explain the TCW retcons.
@Edax_Royeaux9 жыл бұрын
My regret with them bringing back Darth Maul is that we never saw Obi-Wan finally crack and give into the dark side. There was a brief moment of rage in that episode where they both meet, but I feel it was a lost opportunity. In the Phantom Menace, you can clearly see the look of rage on his face when he stares at Darth Maul after the death of his master, and the fact that he just wails on Maul to the point that he barely recovers from the onslaught, so I knew the potential was there. And considering all the lies Obi-Wan tells in A New Hope, I mean, he convinces a kid to murder his own father while making him think he was avenging him instead, that's so twisted that it'd be something you'd expect of Darth Sidious. I feel like there is indeed darkness in Obi-Wan heart, and in the movies, he tends to trend towards the grey, and I feel there should have been a story arc with him exploring the dark side, then pulling back, while gaining insight to the nature of darkness. Darth Maul seemed the perfect vehicle for that story because he was the only person we ever saw that ever got under Obi-Wan's skin.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
You and I couldn't disagree more, I would HATE to see Obi-wan fall to the darkside, even if it was brief. He's the quintessential Jedi Knight in that he is, and always has been, unbreakable. He's seen two loves of his life killed right in front of him and still not broken. In the words of Kenobi himself "You can kill me, but you'll never destroy me. It takes strength to resist the darkside".
@Edax_Royeaux9 жыл бұрын
Reti4 If Obi-Wan strives to be the quintessential Jedi, then he has utterly failed. In Episode 4, he tells horrific lies to Luke, manipulates him, even spends all of the poor kid's money without even asking him first. Obi-Wan clearly is a man who wanders the dark and the light so that evil maybe vanquished, because he's willing to do the things other Jedi didn't have the fortitude to do, because they were held back by dogma. Again, I'll point to Episode 1 where he is visibly enraged, and suddenly turns the tables on Darth Maul, which I thought a distinct parallel to Luke from Episode 6. He's tasted the dark side, but what annoyed me was that there was no consequence or understand from it, it just happened and nothing came from it.
@MrG582KYX9 жыл бұрын
Obi wan only told those lies to protect Luke and to make him chose the right path. 'Your farther was seduced by the dark side of the force, he secede to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth vader, when that happened the good man who was your farther was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view'. This proves obi wan was lying to protect Luke. If kenobi told Luke this news then Luke may have either refused to fight vader and instead try to convince him to join the light again. This wouldn't work of course and it would have resulted in either Luke getting seduced to the dark side or vader just killing him...
@Edax_Royeaux9 жыл бұрын
Tom Grocutt His lying ended up causing Luke to attempt to murder his own father. All while thinking he was avenging him. No matter how you sugar coat it, that's evil! That's not protection, that's manipulation. What's worst, he let Luke confront Vader, without using those last few seconds to warn him about this critical information. Luke, upon learning that information from Vader, might have just forsaken Obi-Wan and Yoda, for being lying bastards! At this point, the only one whose been telling him the truth is the villain! (Apart from Han and Leia)
@MrG582KYX9 жыл бұрын
Yeah sure, lying is a mean thing to do in reality or the Star Wars world but is It enough to turn the Jedi poster boy to the dark side. A man who, like reti4 said, didn't turn to the dark side even though he watched the two loves of his life and his master get killed in front of him, his apprentice/best friend turning to the dark side and the close extermination of his religion ? If that will not turn him then you really think telling a little white lie would ? I don't think so...
@matthewwhite45649 жыл бұрын
Ok finally watched the entire video. Great job guys. Very entertaining andi. Cant wait for the next podcast. I both agree and disagree with Jensaarai on the Maul arc. I didnt really have much of a problem with Maul being instantly rejuvenated and then proceeding to go after Kenobi. Where i agree with you is when you started talking about Shades of Grey. I did feel it was a little rushed. While it was cool to see Maul actually being in charge and making a cunning plan that involves the Mandos and all these other criminals, the takeover itself and the Sidious showing up and taking them down a peg (or 3) did seem a little rushed. Also, you are completely right about Kenobi. One of my favorite things about Maul's return was his obsession with Kenobi and the action between them. Especially because we see Kenobi get angry during a fight, and in a later duel actually defeating the duo. I guess we can kind of attribute Maul losing focus on Kenobi to considering the death of Satine to be sufficient vengeance. But still, it would've been better to have Maul vs Kenobi as the main thing for the whole story.
@mass133449 жыл бұрын
I honestly really enjoyed this I hope they continue this podcast for a long time!
@AntoineBandele9 жыл бұрын
We will try :-D
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Antoine Bandele Do or do not. There is no try.
@Luis-up3ic9 жыл бұрын
Reti4 XD
@mitchellcrawford58729 жыл бұрын
Reti4 Hmm..learned, you have, young one.
@papawedge73963 жыл бұрын
For real, what ever happened to Eeth Koth?
@historytales2029 жыл бұрын
For Ashoka Tano you are so right like the line where she says "no aniken trust me" she doesn't refer to him as master
@vaasmontenegro83039 жыл бұрын
Awesome video guys, top notch work!
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Thanks, we're glad you enjoyed it.
@CynUnion-ji9uj9 жыл бұрын
I liked TCW, i thought it was a pretty good show after season 1. To each their own i suppose, I thought 5 and 6 were the best seasons.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
I liked it from the start barring a few issues *cough* "Sky-guy" *COUGH* But season 3 was when it really started to get good. Lots of great stuff from the first two as well though.
@CynUnion-ji9uj9 жыл бұрын
*Addition:* I think that Anakin being Ahsoka's master was a good thing because in the movies and other Anakin centered stories he was always dark and brooding and angry(that which i have seen/read), Then he becomes a teacher and i think(personal opinion) he became more compassionate because of that experience as a teacher and that compassion is somewhat broken once Ahsoka leaves.
@JonathanG948 жыл бұрын
Didn't mind Anakin getting a padawan. Ahsoka basically acted as his anchor, keeping him from going over the edge.
@TK-wk6xd9 ай бұрын
You forget that most of the sociopathic things Anakin does are influenced by the darkside
@kingorange77398 ай бұрын
That he chose to indulge. The dark side may influence you but it doesn’t control. It does not strip you or your free will.
@mandalorethemaximum14089 жыл бұрын
One of the only things that I liked about the show was the clones them selfs, in the films they're just soldiers, in the series there's more depth to those characters, you know, Comander Bly, Comander Gree, Comander Fox, Captain Thyer, Comander Cody and one of my personal favorites Captain Rex
@sirjedisentinel9 жыл бұрын
I agree with you Jensaarai on the earlier episodes being better. If I was to do a top 5 favorite episodes, most of my episodes are actually from season 1: Ambush, Cloak of Darkness, and Lair of Grevious. The other two are The Lawless (which I admit I only like for that Maul and Savage vs Sidious duel) and Cat and Mouse from season 2 (because, despite making only 2 appearances, I found Admiral Trench to be an incredible villain)
@drksideofthewal9 жыл бұрын
I see that Grey Jedi has turned into Mr. House. :P Great as always, gentleman.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
His retort to Jensaarai1 on his intro had me laughing out loud when I edited this. You're right, very House.
@drksideofthewal9 жыл бұрын
Reti4 By the way, I agree with you at 48:56. Rehabilitation is better than punishment.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
drksideofthewal Glad to hear it. As far as I'm concerned nothing in the world is unforgivable, once someone truly feels remorse for their actions further punishment becomes little more than selfish revenge. Of course, the challenge is determining whether or not someone is actually remorseful or just putting it on.
@FellsApprentice8 жыл бұрын
One of the reasons I support Ahsoka being Anakin's apprentice (and the aftermath of the Bariss Offee "redemption") is because of how it highlights the council's prejudice for Anakin and hotheaded warriors like him. Anakin was, to me at least, the council's weapon at a time that they desperately needed "weapon-class" jedi, hence their choice to give Ahsoka to him in the first place. And then when the weapons do something that suggests that they are getting out of hand, the council's first reaction is to hammer the nail that's standing up, hence their harsh treatment of Ahsoka versus their lenient treatment of Bariss. It also makes the Ahsoka/Anakin moment directly afterward even more powerful because they can bond over how the council really doesn't give a shit about them as people, only weapons to be put down and discarded when they "malfunction."
@Noizemaze48 жыл бұрын
woooooooooooooooow.......your rant on Grievous was so tame compared to mine....... but yes I give you props nonetheless ~ xD
@matthewwhite45649 жыл бұрын
The lightsaber retcon is something that causes me a great deal of rage. Mostly i guess because the change makes no sense. It makes no sense to have Yoda or Ahsoka along. They completely screwed up the ages or numbers of people going. Originally, you only got your lightsaber when you were chosen as a Padawan. ONLY when you were chosen as a Padawan. The apprentice and the master go to Illum alone. Just the 2. Next, the whole class should NOT be there, for reasons i've already said. Its a knight and his/her Padawan NOT THE WHOLE FREAKING CLASS. They screwed up how they get their hands on the crystals. Originally there was a cave of visions on Ilum. The visions are of your worst fear, i think. Its something terrible anyway. Once you pass the visions, the crystal will call to you. It will reveal itself to you. I give the show credit for at least trying to come up with a test to pass, but they got the test wrong. No cave of terrifying visions = they did it wrong. Next, the ship. The very existence of a ship filled with lightsaber parts annoys me because you build the lightsaber right in the cave where you found your crystal, usually by meditating or something. The droid, you brought up interesting points about weapon masters helping, so i dont have as much of a problem with the droid. But still, he's part of the crew of the ship and so, he irritates me. Funny droid, but serving a pointless roll that could've been better served by a living being or nonexistent since the Jedi Knight who should be the master of the PADAWAN (not the younglings we saw in the episode) could be the instructor on how to build it like Luminara in the 2003 series.
@matthewwhite45649 жыл бұрын
Another thing that causes me even more rage than the other issues is the crystal. Making the Ilum and Adegan crystals used by the Jedi into Kaiburr crystals was flat out stupid since the Kaiburr crystal was originally a Force enhanced crystal on some planet that Luke fought Vader on. I dont have a problem with the massive ones in the Lost Missions, i just have a problem with small ones as lightsaber crystals
@WhorrorMovies9 жыл бұрын
Overall, I enjoyed TCW. It's one of my favorite shows. I recognize there are A LOT of issues and retcons, but this is coming from someone who enjoyed the prequels. I'm in agreement with Reti4 in terms of the Midichlorians. The Plagueis novel redeemed any unsettling thoughts I had. It's wonderful to see GJ91 back in action and all of you together making videos. I've said this on about every episode of the Forcecast, but I'm loving this. I suggested other topics before, but here: 1.) KotOR (Gonna need Grey for this one) 2.) KotOR II: The Sith Lords. Yeah, the younger sibling that doesn't get much attention as the other. I feel this is the better one, however, and it goes down as one of, if not my favorite, game. There is so much to talk about in this game, and, once I get everything going, (Still working on my own VS, btw,) I REALLY want to do a rant on why I love this game, and why I think it's better than the original. It's Xbox release was yesterday, but I think I can get away with making the video in February since it was the PC release. 3.) Holiday Special. ;) 4.) Favorite SW games in general.
@Alex-ji6ob7 жыл бұрын
The Scarecrow Yes, I agree with the Holiday Special one. So much chaos and commentary.
@MrMarinus188 жыл бұрын
I loved the way they wrote Yoda's trails at the end as he never truly doubted himself but instead didn't acknowledge himself. Also I really loved they added Ashoka in as one of Yoda's greatest shames in addition to Dooku. It was clear that Yoda's greatest love was the jedi order and he wants them all to be together again. However he is realistic enough to know it isn't possible. I liked seeing Yoda actually develop a little. The only thing I didn't like about that arc were those sages. They were very annoying.
@MrRasheed79 жыл бұрын
To the question asked in the video: The problem with the jedi council is that they are too consumed with the unifying force. They spend their time 'looking into the future' instead living in the present. I believe that the death of qui gon jinn hurt them immensely. the 'living force' allowed qui gon to see what was the will of the force in real time.. right now.. instead of looking into the murky future that they KNOW is clouded by the darkside.. The living force and qui gon jinn would have seen thru palpatine's intentions long before the jedi did. Like Antoine said, the jedi were fighting the last war 1000 years ago.. they expected the same old battle with old sith... but Palpatine used their own republic against them by holding it hostage to fear and terrorism (Sounds like a real life politician to me).. Jedi were unprepared to deal with this because they too set in their ways.. too predictable.. Not versatile
@justinlafser9169 жыл бұрын
Something that I found stupid that they did during TCW, don't know in which season or arc though, is when Yoda is on Korriban for some reason, and he finds the tomb of Darth Bane. I find MANY things wrong with that: 1. Darth Bane's body turned into dust when he tried to take over Zannah's body. 2. Why in the world would any Rule of Two Sith waste the time and put themselves into danger by burying a dead Sith that has no body to bury in the first place. 3. Where did they find an empty, unused tomb that wasn't occupied by a dead Dark Lord on Korriban to even use for Bane. 4. How in the world does Yoda even know who Bane is? The Rule of Two Sith didn't reveal themselves until Sidious, Maul, and Dooku entered the spotlight, and where would the Council even have ANY information on Bane? 5. Even if you did put those four behind you, why not have Bane's spirit actually be there instead of a hologram? I did not have a problem with Mark Hamill as Darth Bane though; you can't help but hear the Joker in his voice and love the fact that he did VA work for Star Wars material. :D
@Verebazs9 жыл бұрын
Justin Lafser 1: It's not canon. It never was. It's glorified fanfiction, nothingelse. 2: They could've sent droids to do the work you know? Besides nobody said Bane was actually buried there. That spectre was nothing but a vision, created by the priestesses. 3: Oh I don't know, maybe built one for him? Just a possibility...Or threw the old occupant out from one? 4: That's another EU fuck up. Yoda clearly knows about the Rule of Two by the time of EP1, so somehow the Jedi did learn about their existence. 5: Because Sith DO NOT. BECOME. GHOSTS. EVER. AT. ALL. And it wasn't a hologram it was a Force-illusion.
@justinlafser9169 жыл бұрын
Verebazs Really? Then care to explain Sidious, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Viciate, Revan, Freedon Nadd, Jason Solo, or Vectivus?
@Verebazs9 жыл бұрын
Justin Lafser Simple: they are bullshit made up by the EU. Filoni explained it in an interview, that during the story-meeting for the Yoda-arc, Lucas made himself very clear in the matter: Sith are mentally and philosophically incapable of becoming Force-ghosts. And TCW is part of the "Lucas-ian", real version of the Star Wars universe, whereas everyone you listed are part of the used to be-half-official licensed fanfiction version.
@justinlafser9169 жыл бұрын
Verebazs No one is going to listen to what Lucas and Disney say is and isn't canon. Lucas absolutely knows nothing of the EU, so it's evolved into it's own niche where it continues to evolve and go off of previously content in the Expanded Universe.
@Verebazs9 жыл бұрын
Justin Lafser Lucas actually does know, and even enjoyed a lot of the EU. However one of the very few things he always remained consitent about is that it's NOT the same universe as the movies and TCW. Also TCW goes by what Lucas says, so as far as TCW is concerned no, Exar Kun and all the other utter bullcrap Sith ghosts are non-canon. Whether you accept it or deny it, doesn't matter. Canon is what officially accpeted. Anythingelse fans want to be part of the universe is nonthingelse but fanon, and no matter how hard they whine, it won't make any of it offical.
@michaelkarimian7538 Жыл бұрын
I finished Clone Wars for the first time last week. It was a great ride, although I don’t approve of every decision that was made. I do agree that it portrays Anakin in a much better light (TCW Anakin is who Hayden Christensen should of played all along). I completely agree that some of the episodes in the later seasons do seem to focus on action rather than story, as evidenced by the fact that some episodes ended way too abruptly. Not to mention the fact that there hasn’t been any sort of timeline fix for TCW, which is just baffling considering the confusion the show caused. I agree that most of the retcons were pointless, as it seemed that Lucas simply allowed Dave Filoni to do literally whatever he wanted since the show goes out of its way it seems to retcon previously established material. It’s my personal belief that Leland Chee (for those of you who don’t know he’s the one in charge that makes sure the Star Wars timeline stays as consistent as possible) repeatedly urged Dave not to do more than several of the retcons he did but Dave didn’t listen. On top of that season 6 (with the exception of the Disappeared Arc) should be erased from the show entirely. The season is great the first time you watch it, but the second you turn your brain on literally everything falls apart. This is the case with the order 66 Arc and especially the Yoda Arc. Lastly my biggest issue with TCW is Asoka herself. I’m in no way suggesting that Asoka is a bad character. My issue comes from the fact that her existence creates so many problems in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately in my opinion Asoka shouldn’t exist because of this. However the animation was great (most of the time) the voice work was almost always spot on and it expanded the mythos in good ways. Overall despite some problems I would take both clone wars series as they have their pros and cons. I’d give it an 8 out of 10.
@jerec12679 жыл бұрын
when talking about the mortis arc evan said the most redundant thing i have heard in my life god like deities
@TheJhed39 жыл бұрын
Warning - wall of text - TL:DR = Off-Topic rant about Jedi being allowed to love = Jedi Can't experience actual Love without it contradicting everything they stand for. On the topic of the off-topic kind of rant about the Jedi code - the problem isn't with the way that the code is interpreted, the problem is conceptually it's hard to be in a relationship with someone, or have feelings for something, without being attached to it. You love your dog, your dog dies, you get sad, you grieve, you get over it and move on with your life. The problem with denying attachment, it denies human nature from being able to properly develop. So when you actually have a relationship like that without ever having to learn the experience it's devastating... look at Qui Gon in the Jedi Apprentice Series - he was a ball of rage when Tahl was killed because it was the first time that he had to deal with a loss like that. I really think that people - not just Jedi - don't go on killing sprees when things don't go their way and murder their friends that accept you as one of your own just because you're sad. The fact that the "once you start down the dark path it will consume you" only applied to the extreme end of the spectrum because normal rational people - again not just Jedi - don't act like that when bad things happen. Surely what Anakin did was the absolute extreme of a co-dependent person, and your arguments of "well if he just was able to follow the Jedi Code" is kind of a cop out answer. He wasn't able to follow that aspect of it because Anakin is human. Being a Jedi isn't a race - being a Jedi is a following. Like any religion there are varying degree's of how that can be followed with opposite ends of the spectrum of - Westboro baptist Church --> People who just believe in being good to each other --> Atheist. The Jedi Code is perfect if you're able to follow it - but you can't - because people are incapable of being perfect, and here's why with some in universe examples. Anakin was born as a slave, and the love of his mother was the only thing he had in the world. He was freed for the pursuit of a better life - but in doing so he had to deal with the trauma of leaving his mother after that was all he'd ever known, which eventually lead to his mother being murdered by the sand people. He wasn't brought up in a world of safety and security and wasn't enlightened towards this Jedi thought process until he had to leave everything he ever knew. Because he was the "Child of Prophecy" he was shoehorned into accelerated growth during times of war and exposed to things his brain wasn't ready to handle. Not because he wasn't a good Jedi, or a good person, it's just he never had the chance to be exposed to these feelings under the Jedi watch - and given context like you would give to someone who wasn't a Jedi. "Allow yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose" Imagine hearing those words if your child was terminally ill. You can't seperate your feelings like that that easily - and the thought of "if i had the power to do something" or the classic *If I had more X* where X could be money, free time, time with loved ones, i could have done so much more. With the force you can attain that power and Anakin chose to do everything he could to keep that bond because he experienced the pain of losing those relationships and had no one there to comfort him except his wife. The problem is the source material this concept is in was unfortunately written by a putz who can't write human emotions like actual humans feel them, and for the record, while I understand Anakins motives, I still think they are foolish... almost to a ridiculous degree. I feel that just because you're a Jedi - doesn't mean you embody what the Jedi are supposed to represent by default - and subsequently does not make you a worse Jedi as a result. Absolute morality is impossible to attain without imposing on others freedom of ideas. Which is why everything is done democratically and council based within the Jedi Order itself, because again. Qui Gon - revered as one of the greatest Jedi Knights of his era, but as far as the best "Jedi" he was a very ends justify the means type of man who dealt with things practically, a known Maverick who would never be chosen to represent the Jedi Hierarchy because of the way he practiced the Jedi Code itself, but was still very well liked by all of the council members which goes to show you that regardless of how strict a rule-set is, if overall you're a good person and you do things for the good of people - nothing else matters in the eyes of a Jedi - regardless if you're a young upstart that wants to be his apprentice, a 900 year old grand master of the order, or a fellow knight. The reason why Jedi aren't "allowed to love" even though they technically are - leads me to every cliché movie bad guy scenario.... lets just use Air Force 1 for example. Control the most powerful man in the world by threatening his family. Free our terrorist leader or I'll kill your wife in front of you. I don't care if you're Obi wan or the most resolute monk in existence. If you have a relationship with someone that you actually care about. You'll do everything you can to help that person. The life of one is equal in value to the lives of many because to give up on someone you love and forsake all bonds for the greater good is an awful thing which is why in the concept of absolute morality above all else - love is forbidden for a Jedi because you cannot make that call.You make the best decision you can to help the most people you can. They kind of touch on this issue in the Jedi Apprentice series a little when Obi-Wan is on Melidda /Dann (sorry for spelling been a long time since i've read the books) when Obi wan wanted to use the ship to help the children and Qui Gon wanted to use it to escort Tahl back to safety which was the initial point of the mission. Both are acting in the interest of their loves and passions and emotions - yet Obi Wan is the one who was forced to leave the Jedi Order and was reluctantly let back in. But from a Moral standpoint - which Jedi was in the right? Tahl herself even mentioned to Qui Gon that they could have stayed and even hinted that they probably should have because even though the planet didn't officially sanction for Jedi help, the planet was in shambles and really needed help, prejudice forcing their children into war is just awful - you can't turn a blind eye to suffering in a moral world - and you also cant turn your back and risk the safety of someone you love. With all that being said - Matt really hit the nail on the head of this is why Jedi are such interesting characters - because they are human beings doing the best they can to be the best people they can be. They are real. Characters like Sidious and Yoda represent the opposite ends of the spectrum are almost fakey fake to normal people, because normal people would never act like that. We can relate to people like the Skywalkers, Obi Wan, Qui Gon, Dooku. People that you can understand their motives. Not agree with, but understand. Very important to distinguish that point and it's why a story like star wars is just so great because even in a place with lightsabers and shooting lightning from your hands - you can still put yourself in that world. Very entertaining video, and love all of your guy's content. Keep up the good work!
@MrMarinus187 жыл бұрын
I don't understand why so many people are confused about when Sidious orders Dooku to kill Ventress. For me it was pretty clear. There is the rule of 2 and there is a long history of apprentices teaming up to kill their masters. That's almost the entire plot in Force unleashed. I wasn't confused at all as Sidious says it pretty clearly. Ventress was meant to be an assassin but her power level has far exceeded what is needed for that and is starting to enter the levels of a sith lord. That is a betrayal of the rule of 2. I am more for a somewhat still caring Dooku than a completely cold hearted one. He has a lot of self control and can order her execution with a stoic face but still has emotions. One of his biggest character traits is that is became a sith lord at old age unlike most who became sith when they were much younger and more impressionable. He still retained a lot of his jedi mentalities including a strong sense of loyalty towards those he cares about. He still is a cold hearted asshole who can order the death of loyal servants without batting an eye but unlike Sidious he's not completely heartless and there are individuals that he does value. A headcannon of mine has always been that jedi draw strength from each other. In contrast to the sith who draw power from themselves.
@ironinquisitor36566 жыл бұрын
Ventress was never a sith she was just a dark jedi. However, its true Palpatine feared she was becoming powerful indeed.
@joedavenport47379 жыл бұрын
I honestly did not like the portrayal of the Mandalorians in TCW. They weren't true Mandalorians. And the Death Watch aren't either. They're dumbass pacifists and dumbass warmongers, NOT Mandos. It's a 180 to the culture and ways of them. Being Mandalorian isn't something you can change. It's and idea. And you can't force ideas upon people who don't like them. So both parties were in flaw in this arc.
@markhayes35237 жыл бұрын
Joseph Davenport Heres why you canot destroy us we are not huddled in one place we span the galaxy we have no lords or leadears so you cannot destroy our command we can fight without technology so we can use are bare hands we have no race so we can rebuild from like minded individuals we are a culture and idea and you cannot kill ideas but we can certainly kill you: mandalore the destroyer on lehon to the council of lehon
@Jedi_Spartan5 жыл бұрын
The most annoying thing to me is how the first battle scene in the Clone Wars movie instantly retcons 75 to 90% of the original Clone Wars EU: Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker leading Phase 1 Clone Troopers.
@polliejeffer75449 жыл бұрын
You forgot the Order 66 retcon, the clones should of chose to betray the jedi rather than being mind controlled to kill them. If you compare the mind control of clone troopers vs the clones were simply following orders to the republic they swore to serve. You could tell that their is more character to the clones than simply them being organic droids that switch control with a simple command
@AntoineBandele9 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't say that's a retcon. We actually never got an explanation on why the Clone turned on the Jedi. TCW simply explained it all to us.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
The mental compelling of the Clones is necessary for Order 66 to make sense. The Clones have been following their Jedi Generals for 3 years by the time Order 66 comes along, they've formed the bonds of brothers in arms and ALL the Clones obey the order of a hideously disfigured, hooded man with a cartoonishly evil voice like THAT *snaps fingers*
@AntoineBandele9 жыл бұрын
Reti4 Right. It makes more sense for the Clones to be indoctrinated than just following orders.
@mandalorethemaximum14089 жыл бұрын
I often get Eath Koth confused with Agen Colar
@NotOrdinaryInGames9 жыл бұрын
Anakin & Ahsoka is probably my #1 favorite non-romantic pair in existence. And she is basically Anakin, if he was a more balanced individual.
@CielBlanche9 жыл бұрын
the jedi/anakin discussion starting at 50 minutes was really cool, wish it had gone on even longer. that interesting subject matter is an example of the value the prequels have, such that people are still discussing the concepts and characters involved 10+ years later. the movies are poorly written but there's something valuable in them conceptually that can be drawn out and explored by people who care to think about it
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Yeah we could talk about that sort of thing all day, but it was very off topic. We didn't want to carry on when the podcast was supposed to be about Clone Wars retcons. I don't know whether you've seen Greyjedi's latest update video but he and I have spoken about making debate videos covering that sort of topic and they are definitely coming, it's just a matter of when.
@vaasmontenegro83039 жыл бұрын
Reti4 So, debate vids. Very cool, I always wondered how a debate like this would turn out between a Grey and a Lightsider.
@ConcealedCourier9 жыл бұрын
@1:19:00 Puts a whole new spin on that "damned fool idealistic crusade" comment.. ;)
@an0rangutan5 жыл бұрын
I don't think Grievous in EP. 3 was really bad, he's definitely better than he is in TCW, he pulls off s really smart maneuver on the invisible hand when he's cornered by Anakin and Obi-Wan, to say he was a coward for "running away" from that situation is ridiculous, anyone else, barring Sidious and Yoda would lose that fight, of course he retreated.
@matthewhenthorn33439 жыл бұрын
With the big debate of Jedi and attachments I would point out that it's not just with romantic relationships, it's all bonds of that intensity that they discourage. So bonds of family, friends, master and students. Anakin can't let things go, he couldn't let his mother go, he couldn't let Ahsoka go. when Obi-wan was faced with prospect of killing Anakin he couldn't. Attachments make it hard to do what must be done and the confusion can lead to anger, frustration and hatred which lead to the dark side. I think this is the reason the Jedi discourage relationships. With Barriss, I think that the fact they have Vader and Ahsoka in Rebels makes more they enough potential plot lines with out adding Barriss in a face to face way. With Yoda being trained in how to preserve his consciousness after death, most of it was unnecessary (travailing to find these priestesses, his fight with his darker side etc) as Obi-won learns this and he remains on Tatooine to watch over Luke and can't travel. but the fact there was more about the force then they knew at the time is great to point out as they all had something more to learn. the moment someone thinks they know it all, that's where arrogance begins. With the crystals, Antoine's comparison with wands from Harry Potter is a good way of thinking about it. I understand wand law and Geo-gramarye. the bond between a wizard and his wand is like the bond between a jedi and his lightsaber. When a wizard finds his wand, the bond they make, enhances their power. the wand has power of it's own and so does the wizard but the bond strengthens them. same with the Jedi and his crystal they both have power but the bond between them strengthens the link to the force in both of them hence making the crystal produce the different colour.
@FellsApprentice6 жыл бұрын
I know this is rather late, but I see Ahsoka as Anakin's padawan as a good thing from a story perspective, it doesn't take away from Anakin's story, if anything it enhances it. Ashoka and her entire arc gave Anakin one more thing that the Council fucked up for him. One more way they treated him as a weapon, great when you can control him, not to be trusted him when you can't. It makes his fall seem way more.... inevitable, I guess. Like that one last straw that broke the camels back, because in ROTS, Anakin goes from "I'm going Sith because I have a problem the Jedi have no solution to" to "From my point of view the Jedi are evil." That makes no sense, but if the situation with Padme is the last and final instance of a long line of the Jedi fucking him over or being of absolutely no help when he needed THEM most, whereas every time that they needed HIM, he's jumped to the rescue.He's having clearly prophetic dreams of his mother in danger? Oh we'll write that off as nothing and prevent you from going to clear your mind about it.Result? Shmi dies.His Padawan he clearly views as a daughter/younger sister is accused of a crime she obviously didn't commit? The jedi council barely says a word in her defence until after she's cleared.Result? Ahsoka justifiably leaves the Order. Because they betrayed her.Anakin has (yet again) prophetic dreams about someone he cares about dying. Dreams that have been proven right before. Response? Oh, just get over it and let go. I mean, we have thousands of years of healing techniques we can show you. But no, just run along and get over it.Result? "I have had fucking enough of this, and the nice guy gloves are coming off. I am going to do everything necessary to keep my family safe. If that is killing the entire Jedi Order, then so be it. You've fucked me and my family over for the last time."Which by the way, spins an entirely new perspective on Operation Knightfall. "I'm not JUST doing this because I have to to save my wife, it's also cause you left my daughter to rot."
@jarodthedarkjedi63109 жыл бұрын
***** +EvanNova95 Listening to this after watching Lucian Dray vs Eeth Koth is hilarious when you guys hint towards your collab.
@StefanWinchester2 жыл бұрын
I honestly think maul being retconed back to life was a good call. But I respect your opinion and used to agree
@dufferman139 жыл бұрын
I just wanted to say one thing in episode 3 when grievous is coughing isn't that because mace windu force grips him at the end of Star Wars clone wars and it damages his lungs as a result of the force grip
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
1. Grievous was always coughing because Windu crushed his rib cage. 2. Grievous defeated multiple Jedi, yes, but note that they were all exhausted.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
Tired? Dude, they were absolutely exhausted. They couldn't even catch their breaths before Grievous came in.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
Also, Grievous is incapable of fatigue, so while the Jedi were maybe at 50% or lower from the very beginning of the duel, Grievous was at 100% from start to finish.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
I actually have a theory about that. I believe that he is better with two lightsabers, instead of four. I think that he uses the four as a last resort when he sees that he can't win with just two. For example, when Grievous trains with count Dooku, he's usually doing it with two lightsabers where he also seems more mobile and more skilled with them. Another example is Obi Wan, due to previous engagements in the clone wars, he knows that he can't beat Kenobi using only two lightsabers, which is why he opened with four on their duel on Utapau. I had this idea when I noticed that he usually doesn't open with four lightsabers, even though he never runs out of stamina. He only uses them after dueling with someone for a while or when he realizes that he can't beat them using only two and so he relies on the facts that using four lightsabers are an unorthodox way of fighting to catch them off guard when he's out of ideas. However, that is just my opinion. Am I right? I don't know.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
I already explained that in my previous reply, I suggest you read it again.
@maxkogan37859 жыл бұрын
That fact that Grievous is the only one, besides Krell maybe, who can wield four lightsabers effectively, makes that style extremely unorthodox, even if it is known by others who just know that Grievous can do it. When Grievous uses two lightsabers, he seems very refined, mobile and prone to using unorthodox tactics, but when he uses four lightsabers, he seems to be purely relying on the fact that the way he's fighting is extremely unorthodox. Also, I did explain this in my theory, including the part concerning Kenobi, I don't know why your having such trouble finding it.
@rhuttner127 жыл бұрын
Ahsoka's character is great. And I like that she's Anakins Padawan. It made his character better.
@thepancakespy23555 жыл бұрын
In this video jensaarai mentions a video with Barriss offee but 5 years later I still haven’t seen it is their a reason for that?
@DTheCritical3 жыл бұрын
If 1. TCW was not given higher status and had to follow the same rules as the rest of the EU 2. Didn't act too much like a live action show 3. Either got Grevious right or Didn't show him at all/did a similar thing with force using characters it wouldn't be so hated
@Erebus9229 жыл бұрын
The way I look at Anakin from the Clone Wars and Anakin from the novels: Two different men in different universes. Anakin from the Clone Wars series is the man Anakin from the novels, should have became.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Agreed. I greatly dislike all incarnations of Anakin with singular exception given to both Clone Wars series. You actually see the friendship Old Ben was describing in "A New Hope" in these series. The character is heavily flawed still, as Anakin is supposed to be, but he means well and is more the naive hero than the whiny brat portrayed in almost all other material. (Note: I have nothing against Hayden Christensen, he was a fine Anakin, he just had terrible writing and direction)
@ultraviolet540 Жыл бұрын
Siri should’ve been in TCW!!!
@Jensaarai1 Жыл бұрын
10 years ago, I would've agreed with you. Now, I'm grateful that she wasn't, because Filoni would've found some way to screw her up.
@luis942894289 жыл бұрын
A topic that I would be interested to hear out from you guys is how do you feel about Force users such as Revan or Kreia, who fly between the frontier of light and dark side? Also, how relevant do you consider Kreia´s teachings to be?
@WhorrorMovies9 жыл бұрын
Oh my gosh. Kreia, as I've stated as my favorite character numerous times, would make an extremely interesting topic for a video. Make it so.
@mandalorethemaximum14089 жыл бұрын
Of the five Jedi that Grievous fights and totally beats in his first aperiance, I was only able to name four, Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura and K'kruhk, what's the name of the other one?
@TheJoker102599 жыл бұрын
Tarr Seirr.
@mandalorethemaximum14089 жыл бұрын
The Joker 10259 Okay, thank you
@SGK12067 жыл бұрын
Mandalore The Maximum g
@jimhalpert4.0159 жыл бұрын
i think it would be amazing if you guys did a "team up vid" where you all work on one versus togther pooling your editing and writing skills together with a judgment "counsel" where you all get a vote, luke skywalker vs anakin skywalker or whole skywalker force using family vs all movie sith?
@jimhalpert4.0159 жыл бұрын
the sith vs skywalker idea for me would be anakin, luke,mara,ben,nat,cade vs plague,palpatine maul,dooku,grevious,vader. you could add or take away any of those, i encourage it honestly, i just really think its a good consept for a council vote versus
@grandmasterezioauditore9829 жыл бұрын
What do you guys think of Darth Maul surviving being cut in half and falling hundreds of feet in TPM? For the producers of TCW to basically resurrect Maul from the dead. Is it actual Canon that he survived the fall on Naboo? Or was it an idea to have Maul survive because of his popularity with younger audiences, to see him in action?
@tomcat-ek3bh9 жыл бұрын
I never thought that Antoine teaching me parenting on this podcast.
@n0xx408 Жыл бұрын
Reti4, when it is a flaw of the order itself as seen across the vast majority of its incarnations then one must assume that it is not individual writers and creators that are at fault but rather that the Jedi order is flawed as an organization. You conflate the order with the philosophy when the order is made up of people, people who by default are flawed. This not bad thing, and there are individuals that are paragons of the Jedi philosophy, they are just exceedingly rare.
@MrG582KYX9 жыл бұрын
Well done gentlemen, another fun and interesting podcast and defiantly the funniest one. Good to hear from you again Matt, glad your not an AI or dead haha. I would have thought at least one of you would have heard rumours about a star wars spin-off movie either during the new 7,8 and 9 movies or afterwards. This new spin-off will be focused on either a bounty hunter story line, Yoda's time on Degobha or Kenobi's time after order 66 while watching over Luke. What do you guys think of these rumours ? If this did happen what would you prefer the spin-off story line to be ?
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Thank you, we're glad you enjoyed it. I'd love a Kenobi spin-off. ANYTHING to get Ewan McGregor back in his Jedi robes.
@MrG582KYX9 жыл бұрын
Haha I feel the same way too but I have a feeling it's quite unlikely.
@AndrzejSapkowski129 жыл бұрын
Jensaarai I can't agree with you more with the script about grievous they turned a terminator/ psycho killer into a cowardly coughing and spluttering villain yet again well said
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Yeah, we all hate what they did with him. He could have been one of the greats, up there with Vader and Palpatine as a villain, in his own way. We can but cherish the original Clone Wars series version of him.
@lightrunner81699 жыл бұрын
FINALLY! Someone agrees with me on Cloak of Deception!
@douglastarbox76409 жыл бұрын
The Bariss Dark Side story certainly made very little sense, but also sort of silly that for the vast majority of the Order's existence the Jedi were defenders fighting for the Republic, not simply, glorified monk/cops.
@mandalorethemaximum14089 жыл бұрын
The title for these videos makes sence because if there trully WAS a Star Wars Council it would be you guys.
@klinghofferfan9 жыл бұрын
0:23 He has returned from the neatherealms of the force.
@OnlineTrav9 жыл бұрын
I love the idea of Barriss Offee entering Rebels as an Inquisitor!!
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
I don't have an issue with it, but she has to cast off all remnants of her true self for it to work. The Barriss Offee we know and love has to die and be replaced by a corrupted, warped dark-sider. Otherwise she's just being hypocritical.
@OnlineTrav9 жыл бұрын
Well if Anakin, who pledged his Jedi career to fight injustice and evil and destroy the Sith, can go on to become a warped Dark Side monster then i'm sure it's feasible for Barriss to undergo something similar.
@Verebazs9 жыл бұрын
Reti4 Although I wouldn't like it either, if we look at it from the In-Universe POV Filoni described, that the "elimination of the treacherous Jedi" and the formation of the Empire was seen as a good thing by most of the Galaxy, and then take into account that Barriss was fighting for similar goals, with similar means, it's not that much of strech that she'd join the Inqusitors if given the chance. Afterall Palpatine was able to win over an experienced veteran Jedi as Dooku to his cause. He wouldn't break much more sweat convincing a shell-shocked, conflicted and inexperienced Barriss that he is and had always been the good guy, than he did with Anakin. How Vader would react to it, that's another question, but I doupt he'd walk past it without a word. He'd probably kill her the first chance he has.
@JacksunGavin9 жыл бұрын
I loved the Yoda arch... i thought it was interesting. I'm very happy that it is canon. It brought back the mysteriousness of the force.
@jeeshadow19 жыл бұрын
Jack Gavin I agree. The idea is even though Yoda is the wisest of the Order, even he does not know nearly as much as he thinks about the Force. It is far more mystical than some thought.
@camerontripp38419 жыл бұрын
I like these very much :3
@OTGGaming05949 жыл бұрын
I hated the fact that they completely forgot about adega. Or intentionally left it out. I mean the jedi order still took crystals from adega at this point. Plus, they called them kyber crystals. THEY WERE GOD D**MN ILLUM CRYSTALS!!! Sometimes the kyber crystal will splinter off like it did for kit fisto, depa billaba, and caleb dume (aka KANAN GOD D**MN JARRUS) but not all lightsaber crystals are fragments of the kyber crystal.
@JonathanG948 жыл бұрын
For a time I thought she was the female inquisitor seen in trailers for season 2 of Rebels, but it appears the Seventh Sister is an entirely new character.
@richardprosser6299 жыл бұрын
Reti and Evan you to have good points on the force but Jensaari is correct the force is the user the person is the tool
@davidhopson43688 жыл бұрын
+Richard Prosser I personally can't say either side is right.The force is fluid and always changing, and so is its relationship to each person. Anakin was born to use the force as his tool, whereas Obi-Wan's relationship is as the tool of the force. I think there is a correct answer but it has to be individualized for you and how you are connected to the force.
@_Egil9 жыл бұрын
Either of you, Galen Marek vs Darth Malgus! DO IT!
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Probably one for Antoine there.
@_Egil9 жыл бұрын
It probably is. Are you (Reti4) doing the questionnaire sometime?
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Lord Athekis Indeed, I actually did mine before Evan and Antoine last year, waaay before I started as a Versus creator, but I deleted it after a few months due to it being particularly terrible. I'm working on redoing it soon, it's already rewritten, just needs re-recording and editing.
@_Egil9 жыл бұрын
Great. Also, will there be any episodes of The Council Forecast about/including anything from KOTOR/SWTOR? It could be whatever, just saying it's something I'd like to see.
@Reti49 жыл бұрын
Lord Athekis Possibly, depends if we have anything to talk about.
@jeeshadow19 жыл бұрын
I also need to add, this show was meant to aim to kids originally, and to be fun. It was a rather fun ride. I doubt it was ever meant to be a masterpiece of Star Wars. It did what all shows should do, it progressed and got better as it went on. It introduced some awesome characters into the lore like Ashoka and Rex. I also think that its focus on Clones was one of its great strengths. It provided a much more human side to the war than the mini series did. It was less of a Jedi story and more a story of the galaxy in general. It helped create a new and unique world, not limited by the confines of the EU, and was rather creative in some of the things it did. Also, while in general the Clone Wars part of the old EU was rather good, their are some parts of the EU that is just silly. It is also just so massive that it differs less casual star wars fans, were as TCW appealed to both hard core fans and the more casual ones. It was a great addition to the Star Wars Universe.
@bwc-chvd9 жыл бұрын
It's not for kids, watch the maul arc.
@albedo54555 жыл бұрын
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ebhyrMKbsNLHdnU.html
@madshummelshj-agerholm38209 жыл бұрын
Regarding the dark dicibel bit, lucas apparently read the comics, liked vos, and wanted the arc to turn him into the guy from Said comics.
@jseaborn729 жыл бұрын
with most of the issues here I agree with you guys. my only question is: why does grey jedi seem like he's more interested I being right rather than having his opinion add to the rest of the conversation. he also seems very uninterested in the whole thing in general. the one thing that I noticed was in the Anakin conversation as to why he was given a padawan. there was pressure to appoint Anakin to the council immediately after his knighting. the more senior members of the council were against this whole-heartedly, however with the pressure coming down from palpatine and the senate, giving him a padawan was a way to pacify both parties