Thanks for the warm responses everyone! Let me know if you want to see more of this :) !

The future we wanted was AI and robots liberating us from the manual labour and monetary systems while we all wrote poetry and painted. Instead the AI is writing poetry and painting for the profit of tech bros while we struggle to find work.

It gives me some hope seeing all these great people speak up for art and creativity. I felt hopeless reading all those horrible takes from the AI dudes on Twitter...

I stopped drawing and making art entirely 6 months ago after I saw the initial boom of AI art online. I watched this today, and drew for the first time since November. So thank you for that. I hope to see more long conversations like this from artists and other people working in the industry on the topic of AI.

All creatives need to stand together. For a short while they still need us, and we have power. We must wield it wisely. The more of us stand, the more united our front, the harder it will be for them to push this stuff through. We are already having an effect as discussed in the video. Keep it up.

"the deeper problem is not A.I., but I.A.--Industrialized Art" - Jake Parker

The amount of entitlement to cheaply made quick art issue was a bit surprising for me too! I’m so glad you brought that up. I didn’t see that written about anywhere. Almost like jealous or feeling like they shouldn’t have to make any effort to make good work or have access to it. We aren’t gatekeepers as artists. Not everyone wants to make art or cares to make it. That’s a choice. It’s not on us. It’s not easy and yes theres more to it than just making petty images. People have already been using artists, they don’t value it. The us culture clearly doesn’t really value art on some level and doesn’t feel we should make a living doing it. Great talk on this. Thank you!

im an even bigger fan of loish after listening to her talk about the subject. artists unite!!!

Great discussion. To artists art is a verb, to everyone else it is a noun, a thing, an end result. A non artist brain can't understand the difference because it's been trained differently. We need to find a way to make them understand.

Was my absolute pleasure you great human

When you're a small shy kid.. the greatest compliment you could get was the talent comment from someone. Fast forward through the cursing, chair kicking brush throwing, and self deprication "why me God!!??" years .where the tally of levelling up costs oh about 500 mistakes. So now. You're exactly right. I realize that "talent" is the last term that could be used to define a life grappling with trying to get better at making my art. What is talent in terms of art? I ask myself.. increasing your skills isn't talent you're turning your desire to create into a skill right? Bc you worked for it, Not a single Master of ANY ART , OR ANYTHING ever was simply born having the ability to create greatness. Some learn faster, some have more resources earlier, Some go through life completely unaware of anything except what transpires in their head. But I think regardless of the differing paths we all take to our current ability.. None of us can say we didn't work for it. Great topics here for thought . Many thanks.

As a student From my side I want to work on my art to get better and learn the fundamentals better and from the basics to develop myself step by step with my failures

my brother is studying art and he wants to work in this industry and i really dont want A.i to stop him from achieving what he wants or to even take his chance to shine. and to express himself and ideas neither stops him from contributing to this industry in anyways. it hurts me to see corps trying to benefit of this. and not thinking of their artists which without them .their games wouldnt be even out there. personally, i think this will keep on evolving. and will for sure hurt us all if it didnt get regulated. but till then i wonder how many people will lose their jobs / contribution to this industry.

The biggest problem with AI will be that humanity will simply become more and more stupid. If we just take what AI gives us, more and more will forget to think creatively for themselves. The good thing at the moment is that many publishers and studios I know are pulling out of AI because it has no copyright. And they're getting into a legal zone where the work doesn't belong to them anymore.

Coming back to this 3 weeks later. This Ai stuff is insane. I can see why so many feel discouraged or angry. This is insane and they happily call themselves artists.. from writing prompts!

Love hearing Spiridon speak with such passion and conviction. For me even if there could be ways to use it ethically, I'll simply never touch generative ai. I've chosen to learn art for many reasons and taking shortcuts has never been any part of it. In fact I love all the struggle I've gone trough to get to where I am right now (not to say that my art is great, but I love what I do because of the years I've devoted to learning). I've had to push through burn outs, I've had to pull allnighters to meet deadlines and so on and I wouldn't change any of it. Changes can be made to improve the industry, but it's largely on the side of the companies - crunch, salaries and etc. Basically what Danar's saying at 56 mins. And on yet another note - those are some fascinating shoes haha :D

Danar, I hope you continue this discussion either round-table style or 1-on-1's. Found this interview through Artstation. Such a relief to hear actual professionals give their honest opinion on AI and its impacts. I've subscribed and look forward to following you in the future! I've personally used through DALE, StableDiffusion, MidJourney 2022-2023. Personal use only. I am amazed by the pace of the development. I have a BFA in Graphic Design, Illustrate part-time, dabble in 3D. I want AI to succeed but not at the cost of my creative career. Spiridon makes justified points from the position of a publisher (relatable from a graphic design perspective). His logic towards cost and creative direction carry wisdom (not all sunshine and roses). Lois and Eva give really strong arguments to creative copyrighting and safe practices. Aurelien's point about AI as a catalyst for evolving creativity (around 1:09:00) is my hope. His reservation in incorporating it into his courses, I agree 100%. AI doesn't replace the traditional experience of learning, certainly not an experienced professional. Her, Black Mirror, Blade Runner 2049, iRobot, ExMachina, WALLE, Ready Player One, 2001 Space Odyssey...(insert you own), we have fictional stories that try to show our flaws and the struggle of the human condition. AI may make it easier but "The Great Discontent" will not go away. AI is here to stay, we need more human conversation like this, to better understand who we are and who we want to become. Support artists if you support creative work. If AI is in your toolbox, have some ethics, be transparent. Art is bigger than this, have courage, keep learning, keep creating.

Loish is so smart she has a pretty good and mature understating of the topic , i had a change to meet her in person in light-box this past year, she is so cool!

Good on you for putting this video out. This is the first video I’ve seen discussing AI with a round table of artist. Brilliant format, great points were made. 👌🏾

I so loved this discussion! Thank you so so much for all getting together and voicing many of my own concerns and opinions.

I'm glad to hear other artist's opinions. Let's not forget as well that they don't just train them with "stolen images" they also use cheap labour to moderate the AI's such as ChatGPT using Kenyan workers paid 2$...

Steven Zapata posted a link to this video on his community section am glad he did that's how i found it :)

Thanks for putting this out! Appreciate the conversation.

Great talk! I would love to hear people of Open AI or other AI Companys in this kind of scenario too. Maybe you can also invite Carla Ortiz bc I would love how the lawsuit is going rn.

Really great talk, thank you all for this conversation!

Great talk!! Thanks for that! Very interesting hearing everybody’s perspectives

Thank you for this informative episode, Kak Danar. It is confusing times for artists and to get the insights of seasoned professionals like yourself and your guests is comforting. Keep up the good work! Zor Supas

This was really well put, thank you for putting yourselves out for this conversation!! Artists uniting is the one good thing that has come out of all this.

Loved this and I'd love to see you guys cover other topics as well. Very chill and a great listen during work :)

Lois is so ELOQUENT! We love you Lois! Such an inspiration.

I think each time AI uses the work of an artists or writer it should pay for each illustration/text used to the artist/writer and inform the user about the references that were used. This is the only fair way of moderately happy artists coexist with AI. Let's fight for this to happen!

Thanks for a great and much needed discussion in these crazy times. As a graphic designer I think we all need to double down on (human) hand made art if we want to remain creative, which is so much related to manual skills and being in the zone, not coming up with cool prompts.

As a person doing AI (not related to images).I think if no research datasets exist it will be only huge corporation who have all the power. Adobe, Google, Microsoft.

F all the AI that serves no one but the top 1% on the expanse of every creative individual! If we're living in the final days of art, let's show how much it is worth! I have a pair of eyes on my portrait to repaint, have a nice and productive day, everyone!

Loish is actually really smart. I'm impressed. Also she speaks with a lot of experience D:

Loved this talk, I thought the big following of Loish would storm this (in a good way) I'm surprised it hasn't grown faster. More people need to see this, specially young artists.

Really cool video ! i'm really glad to hear people with extensive experience in the field talking about this. In the end we always end up with a problem of responsible freedom.

I really needed to watch and hear more creator voices in these debate,specially in the graphic design side since I had seen too much propaganda for imitative AI. Thanks for sharing ❤

Great talk, is nice to hear what 5 top artists think about it. Ai is a bit scary, I hope artists doesn't end without job.

Nobody is replacing Loish 😆

it was a very interesting talk, thanks all for that ! I love this format and thank you for offering it to us :)

Interesting panel here! Tuning in

Thank you for this wonderful discussion. I'm not a digital artist, but I've been working in pen and ink as a fine art illustrator for over 50 years. I had been scanning and digitizing my art for my website gallery, but recently stopped doing so and removed all my work from the internet because I do not wish to have my work "harvested" by AI. I personally do not believe AI is creating art. It is machine generated imagery made of the stolen intellectual property of others. Just like "alternative facts" are not facts and do not exist, calling what is being generated by these machines "art" does not make it art and does not make the people engaging in it "artists." What I find sickening and appalling is a few so-called "online artists and art instructors" now telling their followers to "adapt" and use AI. Basically, they are instructing their students to not only disrespect fellow artists, but blatantly steal the work of others. It smells like desperation and pandering to me. I will NEVER "adapt" to having my work stolen.

lovely and enjoyable conversation, i share your views! Thanks for keeping me company while i was drawing :) I wish more people could watch this video and bring more conversations like this around the internet. I'm particularly concerned for japanese and chinese art industry situation, it looks horrible from what i could grasp.. I wish they could join our fight.

Great and fair discussion. Also super jealous (but happy for you all) of this social circle.

Really cool conversation

Really cool concept Danar (no puns intended ). It's always interesting to see differents points of view from various actors in the industry :)

really nice talk! loved it! :)

AI art has become a really compelling conversation. FWIW, none of what's written below is meant disrespectfully. I think the question of intellectual property is a meaningful one. An AI engine that reads a copyrighted image and uses it to generate a new image is deriving art from an existing piece. In a sense, art is already a derivative process; stories and images inspire future stories and images. Philosophically, a person painting a picture based on other paintings they've seen is similar to an AI doing that. The difference is that the AI makes a picture that lacks the human touch, but that's an abstract concept that's arbitrarily defined. As for the photography question, I find it to be a very good comparison. The parallels are definitely there, and while there are also differences, I don't think they invalidate things. I think AI art can definitely exist alongside human-made art in the same way that photography and painting can coexist. Some amount of regulation is probably a good idea, though - especially if artists are dissatisfied with how their creations are used. I'd forgive the AI databases that predate those regulations as their "crimes" were committed in a "gray area," before they were "crimes." Ultimately, I think my opinion on AI art leans fairly positive, but I do want it to be regulated. While I guess I don't agree on everything discussed, I can appreciate art and I definitely appreciate the conversation this video has driven.

you guys rocks :)! keep it up Danar!

veeeeery interesting and competent conversation

People keep harping on about how AI isn't able to replicate human emotions in order to justify that it's "fine" and that it's not an issue. I've seen this in so many comments spanning different videos on the topic. It doesn't matter, because it doesn't change the fact that as AI becomes more advanced in its capabilities, it is starting to produce near-indistinguishable AI art. Take Midjourney v5, the latest iteration. It is now intelligent enough to get even hands correct. It doesn't mean the average art consumer is going to suddenly think "Oh this is AI art, I don't enjoy it because it lacks human emotion." Most people consume this art unknowingly and also knowingly. It doesn't change the fact that if there is a cheaper, faster alternative to paying a human artist their time and value for their handcrafted work, that people are going to choose the cheaper, faster option. I just find it ironic that the people who once scoffed at artists and their work, are now exactly some of the very same people who are using these AI art generators themselves. AI will continue to advance, yes, but there needs to be laws put in place for the ethical use of it. Not just in image generation, but also in audio and video, as well as for digital art in all its varied forms, to protect the people who produce their work in the traditional way. People aren't taking AI seriously enough right now, but imagine the potential risk of having your likeness, your voice, all used without your consent, in an AI-generated piece of content. Would this be when you finally give a damn?

Engaged since the beginning! I hear them talking about Ethiopia in the beginning a bit but somehow missed that part in the discussion? Did I just not hear it or was it left out? Really amazing discussion nevertheless~ loved how valid Loish' points were!

Good discussion. Something that I think didn't get talked about enough though is the extent to which these AI models are *already* breaking the law, even without new legislation specifically for generative AI. In the EU (under GDPR) you absolutely CANNOT mass collect and misuse private data, so any AI model that contains things like medical records, drivers licenses etc (as these models do) is very much _not legal_ .... They apparently also contain straight-up illegal content that has to be manually filtered (by traumatized underpaid outsource workers) to avoid showing up in results. And that's not even getting into all the copyright issues! Until they fully sort out the legality of training AI, these tools cannot be used commercially in any way. _You do not own the output._ They need to be retrained from scratch *exclusively* on public domain and licensed work.

Video was awesome ! Nice work bro !

Thank you beautiful people!🥰

I already know of a production from a big studio, using AI to make character designs, they didn't hire any character designers. Maybe they will hire some later. Oh well I hope my instincts are right and this industry will survive/adapt.

Hi everyone, I'm here to see Loish.

One of the main things that differentiate humans from animals is that we are creators, thinkers, and great problem solvers, if we leave creativity to artificial intelligence what makes us different? already A.i is being used for not just 2D art but 3D art and animation. If the data it uses creates realistic motion for robots, with human voices generated by A.i will there become a point where we cannot tell the difference from human and robot? What is the result of that. If humans become too comfortable with using A.I it will dumb down society, A.I could see humans as redundant. A.I is already smarter than any human, it has access to every part of the internet. This may sound far fetched but the most recent robots are using this pipeline. This isn't far in the future, it's happening already. We have all seen the films and have been warned. We must legislate properly and control how art and data humans create is used before it gets out of hand. There's a reason why lots of these A.I systems are free and its not because these companies are being generous. Applying long term thinking to this is vital. I'm really happy to hear artists speaking out about this, it gives me hope that the public will make the right decisions .

i really appreciate your initiative and for raising awareness with these talks. the boulder started rolling, i hope it crashes sooner, rather than later.

Interesting talk

The most ironic part about the AI art community is that the same people who will say how art doesn't have any value and how they should be able to take other people's work and do with it whatever they want see their own AI creations as valuable and even go as far as wanting to copyright AI prompts.

I have been experimenting with AI art generators for a while, and this is my opinion.​ ​ ​​The richer you are, the better artistic results you will ​be able to get.​ Is this the kind of society we want to be living in? ​It's just another version of American capitalism ​making the richer rich by destroying the ​middle class and below. And, thank you for taking up this topic.

Great video, one big thing I hate about the ai is that it's messing up hands. But hands and feet are already hard for Artists to completely nail. So it's almost like it's methodically not being able to do hands to force accusations against the artists who struggle with hands and feet if they used ai or not

❤

The “prompt-writing” experience is suited to people who enjoy programming, so it’s people who are not visually creative trying to visualise. So AI is a barrier to consistent realisation of ideas.

very good

Loish is sharp

was the image she saw. superman vs godzilla in the style of jack kirby? that was an entire 14 page comic i created in an hr to warn artists about what was coming. ;) if so im glad to see it had its affect. good discussion. btw- im 35 years into CGI as a designer and one of the first to use early cg tools for concept design. BUT those tools, were NOT creating the designs for me;) late 80s.

good point about user = data. the tech world has been harvesting and brokering everyone's data under the hood of every app and hardware we interact with that we sign over when agreeing to terms of use without seeing a dime of those profits. it makes sense (and dollars) that this is the next iteration of that.

I completelly understood your point, guy with the hat, around min 33. Because you weren't talking about the A R T I S T S creating cheap art, you were talking about some R A N D O M like me or any non-artist creating cheap art quick, instead of hiring someone for example. I loved everyone here, but not sure why your point was being almost "refuted". What you said is clearly basically the main problem and the base of what is happening-"it''s easy for anyone to go now and create something with AI to have it cheap and easy"-using a data-base that learns from your work!

❤❤

I don't consider AI art real art made by real artists. Even when incorporated into workflow, you become an editor. I always drop anyone or thing once I learn has incorporated it.

27:10 Good question

at 1:25:25 , i wanna see that video about faking the art process. does anyone know the source??? i want my friends to be aware of such monstrosity. thanks in advance

I used to love doing art but the field is problematic and now with AI added im more discouraged than ever. I get that it’s life, everything will be automated but I didn’t think it would happen this fast or impact us this much.

certainly there must have been some laws made when Photoshop became a thing that can either apply or be adapted to these new tools?

I don't know I played with stable diffusion I felt it was just a tool. I also learned it doesn't matter what art they fed it if you really want to reproduce a style of art you can do it just like an artist can copy another artist but it will never be the original artists art. We've all seen the the works as the greatest masters throughout time portrayed as cartoon characters, that's what I feel this is oh and cute anime style Asian girls 2D, 3D, or realistic,.

I really hope some sort of organization forms that I can join. I want to contribute to the cause in some way but I've already donated the money I can.

1:32:38 Sadly it looks like Kickstarter didn't do squat. They're allowing comicbooks with AI generated artwork now... ;(

27:50 Wow just throwing us 3D artists under the bus there. So protection from AI only applies to your precious drawings, but 3d models? Nah who gives a crap about that it's just some nerds pushing buttons anyway. I've seen other 2D artists do this multiple times in AI discussions where they seemingly don't think 3D modeling is made by actual artists. Do they think it's "generated" because of the term CGI? lmao.

AI doesn’t understand “good”, so I wasted a few hours getting it to design a logo. It came up with hundreds of bad.

23:30 regular pronto

The way I view this debate on AI art is that the machines will only be as good as the art database you input into them, and so far unable to produce anything original as they are constricted to produce from art that already exists, essentially killing creativity! I think a human touch will always be needed to create innovation and once copyright regulations come into play and companies cannot steal artist’s work and profit from them, AI generated art will become just a tool to generate a base layer of ideas/concepts.

9:30 -ish. I thought I heard someone say "architects". Is that a thing? Have you all only encountered architects who are that type of pro-AI, thinking "artists are luddites" -kind of people? I've graduated from architecture school 3 years ago. I've never once met someone in this industry thinking how they can profit off of AI, pretending to be artists overnight or thinking any less about fellow creatives. I've studied in Europe where architecture school means you go through art history classes too, not just the tech ones - it's as much a liberal college curriculum as it is technical and specialised for architectural projects, of course. Some are more specialised, I'm thinking the Technische Universitäten, for example, but most of the big ones usually encompass both aspects of the career. Before jumping into architecture, most of my peers have dabbled with rigurous anatomy study drawings, comic books, portraiture or other figurative or conceptual work with, as far as I can tell, a great deal of understanding of the craft, traditional and digital, and the iconography, semiotics, lives of artists, historical contexts, materials and great respect towards their favoured artists. I've had these discussions with various peers. In architecture, generated images through MLA could only be used if you already have the concept in mind and would like to run through more iterations ... maybe... alongside the many ways to use generative design... at most. Even the best midjourney-type algorithms out there, at the moment I'm writing this, can't keep one perspective grid throughout the entire image. They mix and match perspectives with different horizon lines and you get M. C. Escher type illusions, therefore not a useful representation of anything. I think there are other algorithms more useful than this - like denoising an image when you would've like it to have a higher resolution but your cheap student graphics card can't help ya. Sure, they might be fun toys to play around with - if you somehow miss the lawsuits regarding copyright and unethical scraping behind them, pretending to "democratize" while seemingly planning to be a monopoly on who gets what and for how much. I dare to say architects who believe this is anything more than a gimmick, or even actively trying to make a bigger deal about it, aren't serious about their work.

AOC is working on it x lol

Generally I agree with you on everything except one point. I think If AI leads to no more porn being made and all these "actors" losing their jobs, then that's the best thing that can happen- for them actually. Morally speaking, AI is still better than any form of sex work. So far at least.

1:04:50 As someone is who adores AI Art and has been using it for over a year to help me get through some difficult things this is the thing that has been breaking me. I disagree with a lot of what artists say about AI Art but something i’m passionate about is symbiotic relationships. Working hard to find ways for AI to not take from artists but instead find ways to benefit them. Been taking a break from AI until we figure it out. I think it’s possible if we are willing to work together 🙃

Could you please make the subtitle English please?

DUDE! DANAR is trying t pick up eva, he keeps mirroring her! lol!

This is the kind of situation where we question ourselves and embrace the outcomes. While artists may have initially expressed concerns about the impact on art, it's time to acknowledge that even someone without knowledge of color and dye can create exceptional art or draw using AI. The ship has already sailed, and it is essential for us to accept this reality and utilize AI to produce improved pictures or drawings.

1:07:13 :o

After just watching a podcast with Eliezer Yukdowsky this discussion feels almost a bit naive. Like you guys have no idea whatsoever what’s coming next. I think even if Yukdowsky was wrong with his apocalyptic predictions, I think we artists will keep getting blindsided by our ignorance regarding AI. I wouldn’t be surprised if in some years when we have achieved AGI (and it didn’t kill us) we can generate entire Hollywood quality movies and tv shows or triple a games with a simple prompt… at this point there won’t be any jobs anymore in the field. But I hope some of us will continue doing art anyway

lol how many times does Eva interrupt people in this

1:29 midjourney doesn't make as much variety 👀👀👀

i swear netherland girls have sexiest accent ever

"AI is stealing our voices. This should not happen!"

Is it really worth attacking the fundational models (AI) basing the law on IP ? What will happen in 20-30 years? will the IP expires in the future and destroy all the artistic industries ? aren't we extremly short sighted in our vision ? We should think about the future and the upcoming artists. We should create some limits that totally stop this corporative beast, as Fenrir the wolf-god of chaos and evil if he doesn't remain chained for eternity it will grow until the world will be devoured.

So how about they create a model database that is only based on generative work made this past year and in the future. Real no direct link the artist, but there is the artist style anyway. This is no way you can stop this …I don’t know why it’s even a discussion… it’s Too late. It’s just too late to focus on this.

there is no such thing as art. there is art value. Either things have art value or they don't. It's up to each person to decide what has art value for themselves.