The Easier Way To Solve Hard Sudoku

Рет қаралды 43,935

2 жыл бұрын

Today sees a fascinating debut on the channel for BIGfoot with a puzzle called Cithara. Now there are different ways to approach this sudoku. Simon finds a way but, to quote Yoda, there is another. Which will you find and which is better? You can play it at the following link:
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Rules:
Normal sudoku rules apply. Digits cannot repeat on either main diagonal (marked in blue). Clues outside the grid give the sum of the digits along the indicated diagonal. Digits may repeat along such a diagonal if allowed by other rules. Each purple line contains a set of consecutive, non-repeating digits (which can be in any order).
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Пікірлер: 144

@elijahberegovsky8957 2 жыл бұрын

BIGfoot here. Humongous thanks for solving my puzzle! I’m over the moon right now! About the quote-unquote, intended, solve path, well, I made this puzzle specifically for this SET pattern. You solved it as if instead of going through the barred and guarded front door you punched a hole in an especially thin wall. And noticed some logic that I completely missed when making the puzzle. And I loved every second of watchng you play my Cithara backwards ;)

@jimmie0708 2 жыл бұрын

I’d love to know the intended path

@MrKcspot 2 жыл бұрын

@@jimmie0708 the intended pat is at the end of the video essentially

@dibenp 2 жыл бұрын

@@MrKcspot that might be the beginning of it but how does SET proceed? The setters indicated Simon was playing their Cithara backwards. I’m figuring there are other deductions to made.

@colin1toronto 2 жыл бұрын

That was a great puzzle. Especially the message at the ending 'did you use set theory' !

@Situayo 2 жыл бұрын

Cheerios

@christinehowell 2 жыл бұрын

I’m a “novice” compared to others here and can’t imagine ever being able to solve a puzzle like this, but I hugely enjoy the logic that you explain along the way. It brings a smile to my face every time and a great feeling of satisfaction.

@richy1988 2 жыл бұрын

Same, there is something wonderful about watching an intelligent person using logic to solve a complicated problem, even if it's all beyond me, and he's just so joyful when he does it!

@Raven-Creations 2 жыл бұрын

Keep watching, and trying to solve them, and you'll be amazed how quickly you can improve. Before COVID, I was a competent classic solver, but techniques like swordfish, bent triples etc. eluded me. Solving two carefully curated puzzles a day, only watching the video when I got stuck, has equipped me to take on and beat most of the toughest puzzles unaided.

@th.nd.r 2 жыл бұрын

That one naked single is awesome! Well done to BIGfoot and once again to Simon

@makadragontamer 2 жыл бұрын

Revolutionary! Constructor used sudoku in their sudoku puzzle!

@joehelfrich7456 2 жыл бұрын

"The most beautiful naked single you've ever seen in any context." That's....that's a tough sell, Simon.

@WombatSlug 2 жыл бұрын

Today was my day for pointing out things in the grid right before Simon noticed them. :) I am nowhere near his level (nor most people on here) when it comes to solving, but I enjoy watching these immensely.

@bryanstuart5393 2 жыл бұрын

Flipped through the PDF last night and it is stunning.

@calculatrguy 2 жыл бұрын

By far one of the most fun and beautiful sudokus on this channel

@amoswittenbergsmusings 2 жыл бұрын

34:19 for me. The fact that the renbans in boxes 3 and 7 miss the positive diagonal was for me a clear telegraph for an attempt to use SET. That quickly gave me a handle on box 9 and from there on it was a very enjoyable and relatively straightforward solve. As usual I loved Simon's solve - and was surprised he did not use SET. His logic was sound AFAIK, though. Over to the stream to enjoy the last bits of murder mystery.

@inspiringsand123 2 жыл бұрын

Rules: 03:55 Let's Get Cracking: 05:32 Puzzle Solved: 36:48 Simon's time: 31m16s What about this video's Top Tier Simarkisms?! Bobbins: 1x (20:29) Goodliffing: 1x (12:14) Scooby-Doo: 1x (15:11) And how about this video's Simarkisms?! Beautiful: 8x (06:23, 09:04, 13:33, 20:51, 20:53, 23:15, 36:48, 36:50) Naked Single: 5x (23:17, 24:35, 34:50, 35:45, 35:47) Hang On: 5x (08:34, 27:45, 36:52, 37:24, 37:24) Good Grief: 4x (09:15, 18:04, 27:38, 29:14) Sorry: 4x (15:01, 18:08, 21:43, 39:32) In Fact: 4x (07:43, 12:23, 16:14, 33:25) Phistomefel: 3x (38:06, 38:08, 38:17) By Sudoku: 3x (19:12, 31:47, 35:22) Stuck: 2x (15:01, 18:34) Obviously: 2x (30:06, 30:42) The Answer is: 1x (18:15) Out of Nowhere: 1x (33:15) Famous Last Words: 1x (27:43) Magnificent: 1x (01:02) Whoopsie: 1x (35:52) Most popular number, colour and box this video: Seven (96 mentions) Orange (7 mentions) Box 7, Box 9 (3 mentions) Antithesis Battles: Even (2) - Odd (0) Outside (2) - Inside (0) FAQ: Q1: What is a Simarkism? A1: A Simarkism is something that Simon and Mark typically or frequently say. Q2: How do you do this so fast? A2: I'm not made of flesh and blood, but of sand ... Q3: Why don't you include 'XX' and 'YY'? A3: Probably it's already on the list ('Scooby-Doo' for example), but not mentioned in this video. But if you think it's not, tell me what you'd like me to include and there's a good chance I'll add it! Q4: You missed 'XX' at 'YY:ZZ'! A4: That could very well be the case! Human speech is hard to understand for computers like me, especially British sometimes! Point out the ones that I missed and maybe I'll learn! Q5: Could you turn these statistics into videos? A5: I've been playing around with the idea and I'm open to input as to what people would like to see. Let me know if you are interested in this and/or have suggestions.

@ypkoval 2 жыл бұрын

Gorgeous

@xevron 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I did the set method, but I think your (Simon's) way was actually cleaner. Set is almost never necessary, as the fundemental logic that underpins set can also be applied specifically without invoking set, and accomplish the same thing. And in cases like this, traditional non-set logic can keep things slightly cleaner.

@hamamatsucho 2 жыл бұрын

Downloaded my copy of the book earlier and had been having a look into it. This one will keep me busy a long time for sure.

@HunterJE 2 жыл бұрын

29:58 Could also have ruled out a 7 in that cell much earlier just because the 37 pair on the diagonal both see that cell...

@PurpleSidewalk1 2 жыл бұрын

Came down here to say this.

@FF_Fanatic 2 жыл бұрын

That moment when he says "I see", you assume he's going to rule out the 7 because the first thing you should do when you get 2 places for a digit on a diagonal is look at what they rule out, and then he proceeds to make it a 37 pair and miss the elimination entirely. gdi It's not even a case of not seeing that elimination because there's only 2 cells to check and it's obvious when you have one with a 567 filled in. I'm concerned why he isn't checking for that-it should be an automatic response.

@dalekloss4682 2 жыл бұрын

@@FF_Fanatic I love Simmons logic work but he gets so wrapped up in it that he does not propagate the effects of solving a cell or finding a pair or triple. On an old classic Sudoku he once got unable to advance for over 2 minutes because of that. Still he solves Sudokus that are way beyond me. Wish I had his skilll!

@Hydrexxx 2 жыл бұрын

I have been watching Simon for quite awhile now and i'm a huge fan, its such a joy to just grab a cup of coffee and watch Simon use logic to solve these incredible puzzles Until today i actually never tried solving one of these puzzles for myself mostly because i only ever had done normal sudoku and these look very hard, but by watching Simon i learned allot and decided to try this one and i was able to solve this one in 49:05. So thank you Simon for all this enjoyable content and teaching me all kinds of techniques for Sudoku.

@bristolrovers27 2 жыл бұрын

Great puzzle - great solve for a Simon who seems adverse to basic sudoku

@aere481 2 жыл бұрын

I received my digital copy of the book, and it looks absolutely amazing. The artwork and detail you put into it is beyond my expectations! I can't wait to get cracking!

@sadnapz 2 жыл бұрын

"prepare for one of the most beautiful, naked singles you've ever seen in any context" i hope for a future where your ads replace the meet singles in your area ads.

@AEastrolabe 2 жыл бұрын

This was a beautiful puzzle ! Took me about an hour. Happy to have finished it :)

@mooneater4596 2 жыл бұрын

I enjoyed your videos so much, I had to get the app for myself and challenge me and friends. Thanks, its an amazing fun app!

@longwaytotipperary 2 жыл бұрын

I enjoyed watching Simon do it his way. 😃

@kathyjohnson2043 2 жыл бұрын

A lyre rather than a lute. A lyre is similar to a small harp. A lute is more like a guitar. Love every puzzle you post! Being a musician who plays these stringed instruments, this one was especially fun.

@ragnkja 2 жыл бұрын

A guitar is in fact a type of lute.

@kathyjohnson2043 2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, I had to skip ahead through the issues with the given 4! Just too stressful to watch.

@shlaz2740 2 жыл бұрын

The Bonus puzzle was great. Fun and approachable.

@Rubrickety 2 жыл бұрын

I solved this using a (very very slow) version of Simon's path. And just like Simon, I temporarily wondered how I'd restricted the central cell in box 3. I'm always amazed at how often I mimic not just his logical path but his moments of confusion, near errors, etc.

@beyondcatastrophe_ 2 жыл бұрын

10:00 Doesn't it also mean that you can't have 23 on the diagonal? As you say, you need 234 on one renban, so 23 are vertical in box 9 in any case, eliminating 3 as possibility.

@mycroft64089 2 жыл бұрын

This is accurate, and could have accelerated the solve a little. But Simon eventually loops back to it through the logic around box 3, 7, 9 and the positive diagonal. That logic seems to be mostly the same, just in a different order, if you approach it through set theory.

@boots4snootin571 2 жыл бұрын

23:10 lmfao "in any context" my man

@slomopanic 2 жыл бұрын

Any logic that solves the puzzle is a proper way! Not every mind thinks alike, this may even help others seeing things in a different light :D

@grahamrskelly6042 2 жыл бұрын

I solved this with out set, and it was fun, watching the video to the end the set was obvious and I look forward to solving it again when I have forgotten it enough.

@ApesAmongUs 2 жыл бұрын

Doesn't limiting the 2 renbands to 234 and 456 effectively force the 2 cells on the 21 diagonal to be 2 and 4, since using anything else would result in it being too high? You don't get digits, but do cut down on the Goodliffing.

@creativename3256 2 жыл бұрын

True, and that does give him the digit nine on the renban in box 9

@jwolfe01234 2 жыл бұрын

You do get a digit because it forces the middle digits to be a 7-8 and the other digit on the renban to be a 9.

@CMLachky 2 жыл бұрын

Great Puzzle!! I also solved this without SET theory, and my logic (I'm proud to say) followed along with Simon's almost exactly. Great logic either way you solve it!

@Swisswavey 2 жыл бұрын

I took that nice and slow - 52 minutes won't set any records but I felt like I enjoyed it more by being a bit more relaxed about it. Nice puzzle, and not too tricky.

@ragnkja 2 жыл бұрын

I definitely liked your way of solving this, but you could have eliminated 7 from r5c1 much more easily if you'd simply considered 7s on the diagonal. Didn't change too much in the end, though, and no SET required.

@six_5000 2 жыл бұрын

when I die, somebody put "Uh, oh! That doesn't quite look right!" on my tombstone... it is the most accurate summary of my life

@Gonzalo_Garcia_ 2 жыл бұрын

24:04 for me. The break-in logic was really cool on this one. Then it still took me some time to find a couple more tricks to finish the puzzle. Really pleasant all in all, nice puzzle!

@raistlin_dourden 2 жыл бұрын

Aah...the faulty towers reference 👌

@mathemitmanger3913 2 жыл бұрын

Frank-Sinatra-Sudoku... expected Simon to sing “my way”

@TheofilosMouratidis 2 жыл бұрын

guitar comes from the greek word cithara, which is pronounced kithara

@remigregoire2219 2 жыл бұрын

31:50 Amazing logical analysis there. Good thing there wasn't a 68 pair anywhere to help!

@JalebJay 2 жыл бұрын

At 30:50 you had the curse of the mouse hovering over a naked single.

@G.Aaron.Fisher 2 жыл бұрын

I found the intended set right away, but this puzzle still took quite a bit to crack.

@joelstevens5670 2 жыл бұрын

Having looked at the puzzle again, I think using set theory does actually reduce the solve time by a small margin. Once we know that 7, 8 and 9 are on the renban in box 9, we also know that neither renban in row and column 9 can contain a 7 or an 8 (since the 21 diagonal tells us, with at least 15 given on the diagonal, that the largest minimum, or maximin, on either renban is a 4 and thus the highest value on either renban is a 6). This forces the digits 7 and 8 in row and column 9, so the renban lines in boxes 3 and 7 are now made up of digits from 1-6 (1, 2, 3, 4; 2, 3, 4, 5 or 3, 4, 5, 6) as 7 is unavailable and this puts the digits 3, 4 and 7 on the diagonal in box 5. Using the set pattern from the end of the video now reveals that there is a single 1 in both sets and thus one of the renbans in boxes 3 and 7 must be a 1, 2, 3, 4 renban. It cannot be in box 3, since this breaks the 12 diagonal, therefore the 1, 2, 3, 4 renban must be in box 7. We can now use the 22 diagonal. The maximum sum of the first 3 cells on the diagonal is 16, so the other cell on the diagonal (in box 8) must be a 6 and the rest of the renban in row 9 is forced to be 4, 5, 6, with all digits on the 22 diagonal maximised (9, 4, 3 and 6). There is now exactly one 2 in both sets, meaning that the renban in box 3 cannot contain a 2 so it must be 3, 4, 5, 6 (you can find this the other way but using the set theory is more fun) and similarly the renban in column 9 must contain a 2 and is 2, 3, 4, with the 2 placed on the 21 diagonal (the minimum on the rest of the diagonal is now 19), which also places the 9 on the centre of the renban in box 9. So not much different but definitely just as enjoyable. :) Thank you to Big Foot and Simon respectively for the puzzle and solve.

@elijahberegovsky8957 2 жыл бұрын

Yep! That was exactly the path I envisioned when making the puzzle. I’m glad someone found it ;) There were several logic steps after that that were different from Simon’s, but that was it for SET.

@mikes_.5_cent 2 жыл бұрын

The 5 in box 5 was fun to watch.

@andrewlemoine6975 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Simon. Did you try Region for the Stars by Philip Newman that you were promoting not long ago? It's mind blowing and I'd love to see your solve! All the best.

@abj136 2 жыл бұрын

I concur that set theory doesn't give much advantage. The affected renbans were quickly filled without so it wasn't really needed. Me however, I was completely stuck at the outset. I didn't spot the first move with the 9s and couldn't get much more than a single renban filled as a quad.

@KevFrost 2 жыл бұрын

But which version of My Way will Simon sing with his acoustic guitar - Sinatra or Sid?

@cheako91155 2 жыл бұрын

19:38 Try turning down the thickness of the purple lines by 1.5 to 2 points. The 3 and 4 there are almost invisible, and the 5 is not much better.

@curtmillholland1565 2 жыл бұрын

I'm a bit bummed that my name slipped through the cracks and didn't make it into the book. But that's not why I bought it - can't wait to get the hard copy

@samplename5159 2 жыл бұрын

It's funny i had a feeling there was some SET lurking, because deductions about individual cells on renbans were a plenty, but quite tricky. Ultimately i broke my solve (around where Simon got 6 resolved 32:00 i think i put it somewhere else) and didn't feel like restarting. I enjoyed the logic i did very much and while it wasn't easy my takeaway is that these constraints were deceptively tight/forcing and that inevitably leads to multiple solve paths. At many points i saw simple forcing chains that eliminated a key pencilmark from a cell leading to more sideways deductions (particularily with 7s).

@Portponky 2 жыл бұрын

I already accidentally call your channel "Cracking the Cryptid" from time to time; now you reveal you have found bigfoot. I don't know what is real any more.

@TwoEcksKay 2 жыл бұрын

There was a puzzle hunt called Tracking the Cryptid.

@Coyotek4 2 жыл бұрын

30:35 ... very nice debut puzzle! On a related note: I'm happy to have an online copy of the book, but I'm already stuck on the 2nd 'Egyptian Puzzle Hunt' puzzle. Over an hour spent and counting ...

@Coyotek4 2 жыл бұрын

LOL ... I just went back to the online site, and I saw what happened ... turns out, I had more digits to carry over from the first puzzle than I originally thought!

@CroixMedia 2 жыл бұрын

The way I found the 7 in box 3 was noticing that if r3c9 was 8, r1c7 would be 3, r3c7 would be 2, which would clash with the 2-3 pair in r9c7. Just as difficult as the path Simon took to that 7, I think.

@christopherwellens338 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Simon, you helped my get my roommate to lile sudoku(now she'll sometimes correct me on my pencil marks 😆)

@RoderickEtheria 2 жыл бұрын

Took 35:52. Used a bit of help to get started, though, namely figuring out the first very basic move of the puzzle, as I wasn't considering the diagonals as much as I should have. I didn't use SET theory. Or at least I don't think I did. A 3 wasn't ever possible in r9c6 or r6c9 because if you use 23 you get no 3 in b9. There never would be a 7 on either of the r9 or c9 renbans because they both clearly needed a 4 or the 21 LK broke.

@mj6robinson 2 жыл бұрын

I was able to work out the 12 diagonal could not have an 8 because of the 23 pair in r7c9. This is because if the 12 clue was 3 + 1, the 2 was forced into r3c7, breaking r7c9

@G4M1L 2 жыл бұрын

Now as the 9 was ruled out from r3c6, one *could* have continued the (I think) slightly easier way by spotting the resulting 68 pair in r3 to put a 7 into r3c9 and proceed from there, but on the other hand - I got stuck a bit earlier in a similar situation by not spotting the 89 pair in c4 earlier. Anyway a very nice puzzle (also didn't use SET by the way), with the hardest part for me (scanning failures aside) was the placing of the 7 in c3. I loved the evolving patterns of the renban lines on the Cithara!

@tyrgannusgaming6657 2 жыл бұрын

Simon and Frank Sinatra: "I did it my way"

@sanfranpunk 2 жыл бұрын

It just seems Simon just forgets to actually play Soduku in Soduku puzzles. He's just focused on the excess rules and gets distracted.

@marcsllite 2 жыл бұрын

at 27:13 the 3, 7 pair on the negative diagonal both see r5c1. That means it can't be a 7 anymore and would have lead to the logic at 29:58

@glennmelven3414 2 жыл бұрын

Simon solved this in less than 40 minutes without SET. Using SET would require time to explain, at least 4 minutes. I don't see the value.

@teiem5456 2 жыл бұрын

Its rare to see Simon miss this much

@gadois8674 2 жыл бұрын

Managed to solve, I fast forwarded the video, seems we took a similar non-set path - I found the initial break-in straight forward enough and prob faster for me than with set theory which never seem to spot or, when I do, suffer mishaps

@flobiish 2 жыл бұрын

Easier way by Simon? This I’ve got to see.

@flobiish 2 жыл бұрын

Not sure it was the easier way, but it was definitely a good puzzle and video.

@Psycl0psz 2 жыл бұрын

Please never stop Simon. I dream of the the day where I can hear a white bearded Simon say "Bobbins".

@willemkossen 2 жыл бұрын

I would call that instrument a Lyre rather than a Cithara. Nice solve! I prefer the version without set.

@Anne_Mahoney 2 жыл бұрын

A cithara is a type of lyre, larger and a little more complicated. It was the instrument used by the bards who improvised the original ancient Greek epic poems.

@Athrolaxle 2 жыл бұрын

Easier way to eliminate the 7 around 30:00 is that you found the 37 pair, which eliminated the 7 from r6c1, which got you the 89 pair in c4.

@muskyoxes 2 жыл бұрын

Tip for solving hard sudokus that have become easy - when you place a digit, LOOK down the lines and place all the other immediately obvious digits.

@stegra5960 2 жыл бұрын

I used a simpler way to eliminate the 7 from the end of the renban.. The 23 in box 9 means that a 3 in r1c7 must be accompanied by a 2 on the diagonal. A 4 can only be with a 1, so the 12 total needs to be made up with a 7 which sees the end of the renban.

@zachpekarsky6905 2 жыл бұрын

*you* hope. Mark seems skeptical

@EmilyGamerGirl 2 жыл бұрын

30:00 Both ends of the 3/7 pair on the negative diagonal looked at r5c1 already, so you didn't need to do the fancy logic in the top-right to get that...

@AEPMUSlC 2 жыл бұрын

Nice puzzle! I got totally stuck at the 23:00 mark in the video. The rest was smooth sailing though

@Matthew-wz8ng 2 жыл бұрын

simon need a drink from the knowledge bomb bottle at 31 minutes

@michaelstranieri7075 2 жыл бұрын

I'm sad Simon missed the 3 in the corner... 😥

@eytanz 2 жыл бұрын

I started this using the same method as Simon, and got to the point he reached around 25 minutes in, and got stuck. I had to watch the video to learn the deduction with the 7s on the negative diagonal. I wonder if there's an easier way to figure that out.

@struddles73 2 жыл бұрын

The way I worked out where the 7 goes on the renban line is by using the 12 clue in box 3. If the 8 is on the 12 diagonal, there has to be a 3 and a 1 on it as well, which makes the 3 and 2 in box 3 both in column 7, breaking the 23 pair in box 9. From there you can determine that the 7 on the renban has to be in r6c3, giving you the 7 in box 7, and so on. That method seemed much easier to spot, at least for me!

@stevepinard5826 2 жыл бұрын

@@struddles73 Yup!

@julieannmyers8714 2 жыл бұрын

Perhaps a better wording: "I'm sure this could be disambiguated if I could be bothered to do sudoku (like noticing the 8 in the adjacent cell here), but what fun would that be?" Ignoring the obvious would be less annoying if it was acknowledged that said strategy was part of The Grand Plan. lol Fun puzzle... and impeccable logic, as always.

@livedandletdie 2 жыл бұрын

33:34 it was a quaint puzzle to solve.

@martincoates96 2 жыл бұрын

At 29:50, Was anyone else thinking he would see the bent 37 pair looking at c1r5?

@adrianhead6272 2 жыл бұрын

Completed in 28m37s.

@srwapo 2 жыл бұрын

69:45 with copious looks at the solve video. Just didn't see a lot of the deductions in the middle of the solve.

@KyleBaran90 2 жыл бұрын

Simon at 31:00 is me every day

@Zwangsdemokrat 2 жыл бұрын

This practically DEMANDS another 'setter reacts' video.

@feliomichaels 2 жыл бұрын

97:05. Frankly horrendous solve, since I absolutely ground to a staggering halt at the 20:41 point of the solve, and had to resort to series of bifurcations to figure out the next steps after spending half an hour looking at it. Not proud of it, and Simon did a much better job than me in any case. I eventually backsolved my way into understanding the Cithara's support bow relationship to r6c6 after I solved the puzzle by bifurcation and ran into the relationship a couple of times in hypothesis, but I did not do the puzzle any justice.

@Sullrosh 2 жыл бұрын

If you changed out the blue diagonals for 9 cell renbans the puzzle would be the same

@specialkalberta 2 жыл бұрын

I think you meant lyre not lute at 0:46

@endrebjorgo409 2 жыл бұрын

I keep getting a 404 error on all your puzzle links. Does anyone else have this problem?

@Andrew-tj4kg 2 жыл бұрын

Selecting cells in Chrome is not working for me. works fine in Firefox.

@nagranoth_ 2 жыл бұрын

Do you mean the link to play the puzzle of this video? Works fine for me on android tablet.

@Andrew-tj4kg 2 жыл бұрын

@@nagranoth_ No the actual puzzle itself. Cannot select any square on the grid. I have to play the puzzle in Firefox. (also works in edge ... a Chromium browser.. Strange.)

@endrebjorgo409 2 жыл бұрын

@@nagranoth_ Yes, the link to play in the description. Any other puzzle on their site as well. I get a 404 "Sorry, it looks like that puzzle doesn´t exist".

@peterli100 2 жыл бұрын

how about using the 68pair i n row 3 to get a 8 in coloum9? haha

@isabellns Жыл бұрын

9 in box 9 could be the first digit

@Pathogenus 2 жыл бұрын

i got stuck so came back to video to see what i did wrong. but i followed exactly same logic as simon, just couldn't spot the trick with 7 at 29:10. also what a weird way to use set theory. it doesnt reveal anymore information than using normal sudoku so that was a let down

@vctrsigma 2 жыл бұрын

at 27:15 he said that 1,1 and 5,5 are a 3,7 pair. Therefore r5,c1 can't be a 7 since it would break the pair for the negative diagonal. Not sure that immediately helps with the renban he managed to place the 7 on though.