If you take the Alert feat, your enemies don't get advantage on their attack rolls against you, leaving them at disadvantage. Your own attacks will still be straight rolls, however, as you still have advantage and disadvantage.

@@brennsinger1799 I had not considered that, that's a great point! Thanks!

Does Alert actually work? Creatures are not getting advantage as a result of being hidden from you, they are getting advantage from you being blinded. Unseen and Hidden are two different things in 5E.

I really hate the RAW on how advantage/disadvantage works in this situation; it's pretty absurd. You shouldn't gain advantage on attacks against a creature that can't see you if you can't see it; disadvantage for all.

K VC I’ve tried the disadvantage for all method, and frankly the problem with that is it takes a LOOOONG time to resolve combat, especially at lower levels. My table found it better to sacrifice realism in favor of pacing and rules integrity.

Or when you always fight outside, and your cloud doesn't last more than a round because of the wind. Then you feel like you could have learned another spell.

I agree.

Increasing playback speed works wonders,by the by. I don't use it only for music now. Our boy treantmonk is comfortably x2 to my ears xD

@@GigY5777 good advice in most cases, unless its something somewhat confusing or ambiguous sounding like many 5e rules are. 10 minutes is manageable for my attention span most of the time

Hah! The way you described it made me think of magicians who create smoke and a flash with a flourish and then "disappear." 😝

I dont understand how you get the blinded condition. It's heavily obscured. Creatures still no where you are without a hide roll. That's not blinded.

@@AllThingsFascinate "creatures effectively have the blinded condition while trying to perceive anything in the area" for heavily obscured, it means there's zero light, basically. It's dodgy with the fact that it doesn't hide creatures, even tho it breaks line of sight, but if you think about it as hearing the other creatures closeby and that being enough to know roughly where they are it makes some sense

Fog Cloud+Animate Objects is actually a great call! My party currently runs double Animate Objects with Bard/Sorc plus Crusader’s Mantle from the Paladin as our boss killer combo. Fog Cloud would totally take it up another notch.

Pyrotechics for the smoke. Non-concentration.

Not to mention that the cloud+spider combo is available to Moon Druids at 2nd level. A 2nd level character with 26hp and advantage on it's attacks is an absolute beast even before you factor in the potential poison damage.

My dm just gave me, the party druid, a Staff of the Python and that's got blindsight. Needless to say I'm hyped for sessions going forward!

That’s nasty! Thanks for the idea. Gonna get my Moon Druid to take this wildshape to help out our blind sense fighter.

I was just thinking this.

A Beholder without eyes is just a big sack of meat.

what would the anti-magic ray have on a magically summoned fog cloud?

As a dm, i would be inclined to say, since duration isn't instant- it is essentially reforming constantly and the magic eye would remove the spell.

@@acm4bass fog cloud is concentration. It's definitely a magical effect, and thus dampened by the anti magic eye.

@@M0ebius and a jaw

Fog Cloud is both good and bad for the Rogue. You don’t trigger opportunity attacks, so things like Booming Blade+Sneak Attack become very strong. But since advantage and disadvantage don’t stack and cancel each other out, that means the only way Sneak Attack triggers is by having an ally next to your target. Swashbucklers already get a free disengage on melee attacks by the way. You don’t need the Fog Cloud.

Well that's kinda untrue but I think it's effectively true. I knew that swashers could get sneak attack on their own but not the exact details (no enemies within 5 feet other than the target) but they only get disengage for the target they attack. So realistically you're right that they don't need fog because they get that disengage for free, under what I implied that it was only against a sneak attacked enemy (therefore there can be only one), but they don't disengage completely, so other enemies can still attack them. In this case they would benefit from fog cloud, but they are not using sneak attack so they're kinda useless in combat at that point anyway.

Sadly, I thought this as well. I had wanted to find a familar other to use than owl. I had seen a streaming show have a bat as the "eyes" of a blind character, but RAW the use of the bats to see though them is in fact an action, leaving you hampered to act.

@@acm4bass touch spell via bat or is line if site needed? Assuming another spellcaster is concentrating on the fog cloud.

@@anthonynorman7545 so two different issues. Yes a familiar can execute a touch spell. And depending on the spell, touch or sight might be required. The second issue is using the familiars senses to see, which takes an action. I am unaware of any rules other than dm determinations to categorically limit this or maybe your dm will encourage it. Idk.

@@acm4bass a familiar can do the touching portion of a touch spell using its reaction, so a bat would be able to deliver it (so long as the caster doesn't need line of sight), yes?

It's a very potent combo for sure. Works even against creatures with truesight.

@@sharkforce8147 he actually calls himself a burglar :P

Giant Crab FTW

The glaring problem with stealth in 5E is that there are no rules as far as I know regarding hearing. So unless you cast something like Silence, you would always know the target’s location absent DM fiat, regardless of armor type or verbal component.

5E RAW is unless you take the Hide action, people just always know where you are regardless of invisibility or heavy obscurement. Edit: Assuming they can hear you.

@@M0ebius 4E explicitly states that you know what square a target is in if they're unseen but not hidden. 5E uses the vague term location. A strictly gamist interpretation denotes location as the square in which the target is located. A realistic interpretaton puts error bars on the degree of accuracy to which you can instantaneously (passive percepton) pinpoint a target by sound, with the size of the error being affected by the volume of the target (i.e. leather vs. plate), distance to the target, and covering background noise. The point being, that the RAW is vague and thus open to interpretation (like illusions and suggestion). And seriously, if the thunderclap cantrip can only be heard 100' awaty, how far do you have to be before you can't hear me walking down the street having a normal conversation or just standing still, drawing arrows and patwanging my bow in your general direction.

Goose And my point is just that absent DM fiat, if you can hear, you know where the target is by RAW unless the Hide action was taken. Handle it on the table as you will, I don’t particularly disagree with any of your points in the context of logic or immersion.

​@@M0ebiusYes, you get to know the location. In 4E you could ignore the rule and make more realistic choices. In 5E, the DM is required to make a decision about what location means, especially if you're playing theatre of the mind and not using a battle map, because the 5E wording fails to define location with the precision that 4E did. I could put an invisible enemies token in the middle of 4 squares and say he's in one of them, and still be within the bounds of RAW with a realistic level of imprecision due to in game circumstances. Right?

@@goose6752 that seems fair

"And unless someone takes the Hide Action, you know EXACTLY where they are irregardless of vision." WHAT? Where in the rules does it say that??!?! Pg 177 of the Player's Handbook only talk about detecting the "presence" of creatures who are unseen. Compare and Contract with how Tremorsense is defined on Pg 7 of the Monster Manual "A monster with tremorsense can detect AND PINPOINT the origin of vibrations within a specific radius" All creatures do not have Tremorsense because of a failed Hide Action or failure to attempt a hide action. The only reason you'd use the Hide Action in a Fog Cloud would be to hide your PRESENCE. As in you put up the fog cloud before any enemies ever saw you, so all they saw was fog. Now you MIGHT want to take an action to attempt to Hide this is just so your enemies don't hear the sounds of adventurer's equipment clattering around in the fog revealing that someone is in the fog. But there's just the sound of adventurers coming from somewhere that must be in the fog. "There’s no guessing what square they’re in, no Perception checks, or whatever newbie DMs likes to do." Newbie DMs? You haven't read the rules on hiding. How can they POSSIBLY know what "square" they are in? Squares don't exist in the world the PCs live in, they're a convenience for the players and DM so people don't forget who is within reach of what weapon attack. They. Cannot. See. How can they know where the creatures are without a sense like tremorsense or straight up cheating? So what if you can easily count the squares... no creature in the game world can do that. "I saw this a lot when running the Darkness+Devils Sight combo with Warlocks." Nope, that IS a ridiculously powerful combination, there is NO WAY that opponents without devil's sight, blindsight, tremorsense or METAGAMING can tell where they should direct their attacks to even attack with disadvantage. All they see is darkness and attacks emanating from it. I hate that combo, it's super disruptive to the rest of the group who don't have devil's sight. What you are doing is houseruling that every creature in your gameworld has the tremorsense ability. "The way the rules are also has one counter-intuitive result: you can actually make someone more accurate by blinding everyone if they are currently disadvantaged, for instance when they fire projectiles from long range." While you can't have "double disadvantage" this is why it's necessary to have a net circumstantial benefit to prevent players searching for ANY advantage to offset a mountain of disadvantages. If you then say "well I'm going to shut my eyes to make this shot as I've got disadvantage anyway" then I'm going to have a private chat with you about how you're being purposefully disruptive in the game. This isn't a physics simulator, it's a simple ruleset to help the game flow smoothly and clearly. You aren't finding a clever loophole in the rules you're clearly breaking the first rule: don't be a dick. If you REALLY want to do something like that, then talk to the GM and maybe they can come up with something, say use inspiration die like the Lucky feat, a "use the force" moment in the adventure, while hanging upside down and the flying bad guy has blur, is at long range and you're poisoned you hear the voice of your old master "use the force, Garketh" you close your eyes and attack roll 2d20 where you'd pick the lowest for disadvantage... and another d20 of your inspiration die. Pick which d20.

M0ebius also the actual rules say that if you hide or are invisible they have to guess where you are. So that’s not a newbie dm thing. That’s just the rules

PHB 194: “When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see.” The in PHB 195: “If you are hidden-both unseen and unheard-when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.” So if you can hear the target, you can attack it with disadvantage. If you can neither see nor hear the target, you guess at the square. For a creature to be both unseen AND unheard requires a Stealth check to Hide, and if you do, the moment you attack you are no longer hidden until you perform another Stealth check. Unfortunately there are no RAW on hearing in the book that I am aware of. Some spells do specify an auditory range, but nothing pertaining to unseen targets. If I am wrong please post the rules, but remember that I am only discussing RAW and I am not interested in debating hypothetical realism.

Conrad Korbol The actual rules indeed does say that about a Hidden creature, not an Invisible creature. You are conflating the two. I have posted the actual rules in question, let me know if you have a different interpretation.

M0ebius you are correct that when you attack You give away your position, but you can bonus action hide again as a rogue. So yes if you know the square you can track with disadvantage But in fog cloud or invisibility if the target hides and beats your passive perception. You would need to actively search for them. I don’t know the rule, but it talks about in conditions and such. You basically have to guess where creatures are if you can’t hear or see them. Also you would then have to actively search for them with disadvantage.

There has been an errata that made Contagion more clear, although it more or less was a complete rewrite of the spell.

@@M0ebius Thanks! I'll check it out.

It takes your action to see through it for one turn, so no action-cost targeting (without action surge)-- but bonus action, like misty step, yes.

"ANGRY TIME CANCELLING NOISES"

No, because while you are not blinded since you aren't inside the fog cloud, you are shooting into a heavily obscured area, so you have the same penalties

It works exactly the same, since you still can't see each other, so you both have advantage and disadvantage, which cancel out.

See my pinned comment for an answer to this, common question! Darkness works basically the same.

I'll certainly mix some in, glad you liked it!

No, the areas that are unavailable are simply removed from the effect. 1e works the way you describe tho.

@@TreantmonksTemple thats disappointing because after doing the math if you are in a 5x5x5 passage you could effect 265 squares at 1st lv.

Absent DM fiat there are no rules on hearing. Just going by RAW you know where the targets are irregardless of sight unless you are somehow deafened (Silence or Deafness spells) or the targets take the Hide action.

The rules don't introduce such complications, but your DM sure might.

No they don't anymore.

@@MikkoSav123 They don't?

@@MikkoSav123? My book has it they changed it in reprint?

@@undrhil I checked, and I was wrong.. :)

@@nephilimninjaofnibiru2907 I didn't remember correctly and made a typo when searching for it on pdf... :)

If you create an illusion of a solid wall, it would block all ranged spells and all ranged attacks in the exact same way a real wall would, until you pass the check to inspect it and figure out it's an illusion.

The attacker cannot see the target and the target cannot see the attacker so disadvantage+advantage=regular roll

Yes, please I really want to know that too

If you can't see the target and the target can't see you (such as if you are outside the cloud and the target is inside) you will have both advantage and disadvantage the same as if you were both in the cloud.

thank you

Not an exception, if your disadvantage is cancelled, then you don't have disadvantage. It's like your cable subscription, if you cancel your subscription, you don't have cable anymore.

@@TreantmonksTemple amazing I apperantly didn't read the rules carefully enough "If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20", too bad one of my GMs banned me from playing rogue because I "overutilized" stealth and flank advantages

Fighting style blindfight would allow it I think.

Yes, I think it would.

You don't get advantage. That advantage is lost because you can't see either.

@@TreantmonksTemple rules as written, you get advantage because you are unseen to them, but you get disadvantage because you can't see them, which nullifies and results in neither. I personally rule it that if you attack someone that can't you, you aren't considered an unseen attacker if you yourself can't see them, thus, if two people are in fog cloud trying to attack each other, both would have disadvantage. This is my ruling, not RAW

@@geoffreyperrin4347 Yes, this is a pretty common houserule, and I agree it makes sense.

smbakeresq negative. A lot of blasts require you to see the origin point and won’t function at all when you’re blinded.

ArsArma no, blast doesn’t exist, see page 204-205. As far as point of origin, yes, it’s a point you can see. It’s also on page 204-205. See however isn’t defined, and if you are blind technically you have no point you can see therefore that spell is forbidden to you. That’s absurd to me, a seeing PC can cast the spell in vector even though they might not know what it hits. Look I get the Eldritch Blast cult. But is just goes in a direction from the caster. You can just shoot it out blindly.

@@smbakeresq No, blasts, as in the terms for damaging spells, often require you to see the point. Check the individual spells.

ArsArma those terms are completely ignored by the RAW crowd, they are too restrictive. While I agree with you in some cases, the word blast has no effect, and since see isn’t defined either it means nothing. Look RAW, unless you take a Hide Action RAW, they will know right where you are RAW. Therefore they can almost always “see” you. It’s they way it is. Regardless, I would let you blind fire or pick a point of origin.

What’s even worse IMO, you can use the hide action in a Fog Cloud, as it’s heavy obscurement. However the cloud itself provides no bonus, so being in cloud allows you to make the check but being 35’ in a Fog Cloud provides no bonus to stealth.

You are targeting something you can’t see, so the attack is at disadvantage. You also have to guess the square or location they are in. Fireball works normally except you can’t see the origin point, you have to just guess when you want it to go off.

It says that if you try to see something inside the cloud you are treated as blinded. Also if you were to throw a fireball inside it would behave normally (creatures inside would get a dexterity saving throw with no advantage or disadvantage)

If you attack from outside the cloud to something inside the cloud, you have both advantage (because they can't see you) and disadvantage (because you can't see them) so it ends up the same as if you were both in the cloud. Since fireball doesn't require an attack roll (just placement) it would work just fine.

I used to think that's how it worked (and common sense would suggest that too, and it's a common house rule), but with the rules as written, if you put enemy archers in a fog cloud (even if you aren't in the fog cloud), then they can't see you, and you can't see them, so advantage and disadvantage cancel out. If you aren't hidden from them (ie take the hide action), then they know your location and can shoot you without disadvantage (or advantage).

@@TreantmonksTemple everyone inside the cloud has disadvantage in all attacks (blinded). But the PHB specifies that the DM doesn't have to tell you if the location you target (because you can't see) is the correct location. IF it's the correct location, you have disadvantage. But you may be rolling to attack an empty square, and the book specifically states that the DM doesn't need to tell you that. Now, you can do a Perception check. For most characters though, that is an action, leaving only a BA. If the target moves before the next turn, you might still attack an empty square. So suppressing ranged attackers should be very effective, as long as you don't stand still the whole time. If I were attacking INTO a fog cloud, I'd be using area effects anyway. And since it is a concentration spell, any time the cloud becomes a hassle, it can be dropped.

@@ChristnThms "the PHB specifies that the DM doesn't have to tell you if the location you target (because you can't see) is the correct location." TIL! Can you point me in the direction of this? I want to read for myself, my understanding was that you needed to use stealth to mask your location.

@@TreantmonksTemple think it's 169. Combat section, on unseen attacks.

No problem, the rules are confusing in this matter. Part of the problem is that it is called the "hide action" when it should be called the "I try to be quiet" action. The idea is that you know the general locaton (not necessarily exactly, just within a 5' area) of someone by the noise they make. Once they stop making noise (through the "hide" action), then you can't hear them anymore as a way of knowing their location. Hope that makes some sense.

Nothing wrong with a common-sense houserule here.

Why? Can't 2 people both be blinded at the same time?

Being blind leaves a person unable to defend naturally. Like walking into a door in the dark. The door doesn't even attack, you just aren't able to stop it from hitting you.

Treantmonk's Temple If a creature is blinded, it’s assumed that attackers are not thus granting advantage to hit. In a fog cloud, since the attacker is also blinded, they wouldn’t get the advantage to hit and have to roll at disadvantage.

@@comrad3question982 The idea is that an attack while blind will be less accurate but not be dodged, blocked or parried. So you have a disadvantage and an advantage combined, so they cancel out - at least that is the rules. DM's are free to houserule, I'm not defending the rules, just pointing out what they are.

If one, either, or both objects are in a fog cloud, the blinded condition applies to each object being perceived or doing the perceiving.

@@undrhil Ah right, so it's both. What about if neither are actually inside it but the fog cloud is between two subjects?

@@alantbaird same concept, they can't see one another

@@alantbaird you are trying to see through an area of heavy obscurememt...

It is no different than if both were in the cloud. If you can't see your target, and they can't see you, you have both advantage and disadvantage which cancel out. Straight up attack.

I understand @Treantmonk's Temple made a comment discussing this, but I don't understand why the creature on the outside cant see the creature on the inside when he stated himself everyone inside smoke cloud is seen unless they pass a stealth check.

The important distinction here is that, "knows where you are", and "Can see you" are not the same thing.

But they can attack and then immediately hide and move. That way when it's the enemy turn they would be difficult to be attacked because the enemy has no idea where they are.

If the enemy doesn't know your location, they can't attack you at all, way better than disadvantage!

In the case if Fog Cloud the Rogue can only activate sneak attack against someone next to an ally or as a Swashbuckler. But if you satisfy those conditions you can attack with impunity, especially if you have something like Booming Blade.

"Hey! Someone is over there in that fog cloud!" "I got it ... no problem... fireball!"

Since each side cannot see each other, you are still applying both advantage and disadvantage, which cancel out.

@@TreantmonksTemple Yeah. Usually how I've seen people use this in range vs range is that they cast fog cloud to cover themselves. Then, on their turn, they can use half their movement to walk out of the cloud, removing the blind condition, attack at range, and use their remaining movement to re-enter the cloud to no longer be seen. If the DM interprets that "not being seen" also requires the "hide" action, then the fog cloud goes on the enemies. This way, unless they move, they're blinded and have disadvantage. Unless they are using their action to hide, you can see them and have advantage. (I usually don't see the GM forcing this interpretation, as typically they rule that creatures can't see inside the cloud (period); thus hide is not enforced. So if hide isn't needed, fog cloud and the pop-in / pop-out provides the best tactical advantage. If hide if needed, fog cloud on the enemy is better, since you can still attack the enemy, unless they are using their actions to hide (which typically means they're not attacking you).

Steve Smith The obvious counter to that tactic is to hold action. But since hold action only grants 1 attack you very well could still gain value playing peekaboo against enemies with multi-attack. However the enemies can also just walk into the cloud and attack normally, negating the advantage /disadvantage.

It might have been, not sure.

I don't know how that would go over

@@TreantmonksTemple You'll never know if you don't try!

No, because the blinded condition gives disadvantage to attack and advantage to be attacked. When you have both advantage and disadvantage then they cancel out, so the attacks are straight up. Having everyone at disadvantage is a common house rule though. I'm just reporting the rules as they are written

You are refering to the overland movement, which is not combat movement. The reason it does not apply to combat (besides it saying it applies to movement periods lasting one minute or longer) is it is assuming a narrative of not only moving quietly, but taking a route that allows the characters to be unseen, taking time to check for enemies, etc. For combat movement, there is no restriction on movement after taking the hide action. I've seen lots of tables use houserules on stealthy movement though, I'm just pointing out that they are playing either with a houserule, or they are unaware of the actual rules on combat movement.

Yes they can. The rules state, "If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20." So even though they 'have' disadvantage, when it cancels out, they are considered to have nothing and can sneak attack.

@@RavenWolfStarcraft2 Ok, I'll buy that. Thanks.

It makes sense, but isn’t RAW.

​@@M0ebius Yet without doing it that way tremorsense is identical to normal senses. It should take tremorsense to be able to tell where someone is just by the sound of their footsteps to such a high degree you could aim at and shoot them. I don't care what the rules say, I'm not going to let every sapient creature in the game effectively have tremorsense. There's a MASSIVE difference between a perception check to notice someone is ANYWHERE nearby and be so sure of where they are you can shoot at them with a crossbow as reliably as if you could see them plainly. That's what stealth vs perception opposed checks should be when sneaking into a place, avoid anyone hearing the distinctive sounds of movement (clattering armour, dragging feet, deep breathing) but that just tells you the rough direction the sound came from. It's JUST detection, you MUST be able to see them to attack them. If you WERE to stealth in a fog cloud, all that could possibly change is they don't hear the sound of you moving, but logically just because they didn't hear you move doesn't mean you definitely didn't move. Might be useful if they first saw the fog as a natural/mundane phenomenon and didn't know you were there, if you ran in the smoke they'd hear footsteps and indicate someone was SOMEWHERE in the fog cloud. If you want to pick a random square, to shoot where you think they are, take the shot but don't bother telling me the modifiers I'll only let you hit on a natural 20. Because skill is irrelevant, they aren't dodging attacks, you aren't aiming for a particular spot.

Treblaine Yes it makes total sense and I don’t particularly disagree with any of your points. My table play by strict RAW as we rotate DMs and place consistent ruling over realism, so I am just pointing out the actual rules. But strictly from a gaming perspective, the RAW ruling makes situations like this go MUCH faster.

@@M0ebius Well, 5e isn't a "physics simulator" like 3e/pathfinder. It'll get you most of the way there but at some point you've got to use the rules to help arbitrate the game... not allow the rules to make a nonsense reality. This isn't like "you can concentrate on two spells" sort of homebrew, this isn't saying "nope I'm going to nerf the feat you jsut chose" this is preventing the game seeming cheap and broken from things acting totally contrary to the only way they could work.

Treblaine Personally I would rule that both the Warlock and the Bowman can fire as normal inside Fog Clouds if only because of pacing.