Omg that clip of the trainer throwing the newspaper at the dogs head triggered me sooo much.. I swear I'd pick it up and chuck it at his head for no reason back.. Then be like did you learn anything? Rrrrr..

6:27 "...from the dog's perspective...". So my behavior can be categorized as reinforcing or punishing, and + (giving) or - (taking). With respect to the dog, she decides if it is reinforcing or punishing for her, while I might completely disagree. So pulling into the parking lot with my husky is R- (she isn't constrained indoors), putting her on a leash is P+ (I added a constraint)? 5:50 a good human construct to conceptualize interaction human and pet, I wonder if specific R's and P's are breed specific.

All good considerations and thoughts! We can only determine so much about what our canine companions are thinking and feeling based on their outward behaviors (which can often be quite subtle). An example of where this can often get confusing for some pet parents is when they believe they are doing something they think the dog will consider reinforcing because THEY would see it as reinforcing. Such as saying "good girl" loudly and excitedly when the dog in front of them may actually be afraid of that due to anxiety or fear, therefore making that interaction positive punishment despite the best intentions of the person delivering the praise. I definitely think, even though dogs are individuals and can vary within the same breed, there are some breed normalcies for responsiveness to various stimuli @@Bionic6tothe6

Kathleen - Agreed. I think it's hard for owners that don't know what to do themselves as they often have the expectation that a "professional" knows what they are doing (whether they understand or not) and has their dog's best interest in mind. Unfortunately that's just not the case as in any profession there are good apples and rotten apples. Owners should be able to trust professionals and the more "trainers" use this type of outdated methodology, the more of a bad name it gives the training and behavior field in general.

I want to do the same to this guy but with something harder, maybe a big pan in his head, wonder if he would learned anything

Once I saw the Caesar banner, I knew what was up...ugh...That man is a menace.

Animals in the circus are a good example. The elephant doesn't do the trick right. It gets hit with a bullhook.

Scared - not “surprised.” Let’s be clear with definitions per the dog’s behavior, not cognitive bias. If you can’t reasonably explain your actions in public, you may want to consider whether it’s something you should be doing in the first place. Transparency and integrity go hand in hand. If I’m worried about what others will think of my actions, I ask myself two questions: 1. How can I consider what they are saying and take their feedback to heart to improve my practice? 2. Is this person open to listening to the reason behind why, as a seasoned professional, I am doing things this way? That opens the door for learning and sets egos aside.

I would have to strongly disagree on that purely and simply because all this does in many dogs is stimulate aggression. I use e-collars and prong collars on many dogs and my own since they are working hunter dogs. They enjoy complete freedom and safety as a result. I rarely use the EC as I rely on voice recall first. They are not punishment in the sense they are not designed to hurt, but means of communication in a gentle, controlled manner. When taught correctly, dogs are great at understanding on how to release pressure. I will give a stim to the dog and the moment the dog actively chooses to return the stim stops. Injuring a doggy, mentally or physically will not get any compliance. He will just grow fearful and potentially shutdown which can be difficult or impossible to fix if not treated properly. From the video clip, the dog had been sitting there quite amicably for a good couple of seconds and then all of a sudden he gets a beating on the head. What a fantastic way to confuse a dog and break relationships!. If you're going to pp+ a dog, It needs to be done inside seconds with something less dumb. Body blocking and eye contact are my favourites or a poke to the neck the index finger. Wolves correct each other by nosing or a quick nip to the neck. They are binary and they move on very quickly. This guy needs education on dog psychology, and to understand that you need to get into the dog's mindset by being firm but also fair with clear communication so the dog understands what you desire. The only time I would endorse such behaviour (throwing object aside as its pointless in any dogs mental state, is when there is risk to life. I have had to choke out dogs who are fighting other dogs by using thier own collar.... They will survive and there will be no long-term damage but instinctively when you block the airway temporarily they release their bite. Throwing things at dogs is a sign of weakness unless you are using it as an agitator in protection work. Which few people do and that's a completely different sector for dog training. If you cant communicate as a pack leader then don't work with dogs, they look to you as a leader.

Just as bad as a woman off camera telling her dog that was going to be him next. Absolutely horrific.

Thanks so much! Agreed - he's a "popular" trainer as well sadly. It's one thing to use positive punishment, it's a whole other thing to quite literally hit a dog in an abusive manner.

@@SaraOndrako even the inappropriate remarks towards some of the females…. In England that would be enough to get you locked up

Seriously!

The positive punishment example was definitely representative of uncalled for behavior by a trainer but sadly, physical punishment is still commonly used to “correct” dogs. I just really felt for this dog who was looking to his owner for guidance when he basically got sucker-punched.

exactly

I know this comment is a year old but I thought I would try to explain a little better. Negative reinforcement is that the dog has something aversive go away when they do the desired behaviour. There is tension on the leash, which is aversive. When the dog walks next to you, that tension goes away and that is the reinforcement. Another way to think of it is pushing on a dogs bum until they sit, you removing your hand and that uncomfortable downward pressure going away is the reinforcement. Positive punishment and negative reinforcement are both aversive techniques; R+ trainers get ridiculed a lot for supposedly not "disciplining" a dog and letting them get away with everything but these force free trainers will actually use R+ and P- because the dog jumping up being denied the attention they are after is plenty to teach a dog. You can't teach a dog not to do something without nasty techniques but you can teach a dog to do something else instead, ie the dog gets rewarded with fuss when all four paws on the floor. Cant jump up AND keep paws on the ground.

Thanks so much Ahmia! 😊

You are so welcome! I'm glad that you found it helpful!

You're welcome! Unfortunately there are still "professional trainers" that believe their own methodology over what science has to say about building relationships and trust with our dogs to receive desired behaviors in return. This type of "communication" is completely unnecessary and even dangerous given that people will watch and try to emulate what they see.

I could have - yes, however, I felt this needed to be seen since it's common for people to overly punish their dogs physically and that simply isn't necessary. The more we expose it, hopefully the less people will accept or tolerate "professional" trainers physically punishing their dogs. In this video, I believe the dog was initially looking at another dog and had a history of being leash reactive - don't quote me on that but I believe that was this video.

eM - You are correct - the dog in that video has no idea what is going on or what is expected. Regarding the "ah-ah" - excellent question!! Remember that punishment is considered aversive (uncomfortable for the dog). When you use a simple "ah-ah" are you actually doing something that makes the dog uncomfortable? In my opinion, you are not (unless of course you are yelling it at the dog while hovering or something of that nature). I think of an ah-ah as more of a distraction that breaks a behavior and induces thinking. Think of it this way, if you are scrolling through Instagram and a friend of yours catches your attention by saying "hey", it distracts you from what you are doing, typically will redirect your focus to your friend, and there is no negative emotion attached to it. Interruptions don't have to be scary or aversive, they simply need to be interruptive. Once the interruption occurs, then you can focus on showing them what you DO want them to do (to chew on, to potty on, where to walk, how to say please, etc.). Positive punishment does not have to be physical punishment. You are correct on verbal - yelling at a dog is considered positive punishment. Grabbing a water bottle if they are afraid of getting squirt is also an example of non-physical positive punishment. Regarding spacial pressure it could fall into one of two quadrants depending on the dog's response. If the dog backs away from the pressure because he is uncomfortable and finds it aversive, then it's considered positive punishment, however, if the dog does not necessarily find it aversive but follows the guidance from the body language and the action of the dog moving to alleviate the spatial pressure results in that spatial pressure being alleviated, then it's considered negative reinforcement. The dog is able to remove the pressure by choosing to back up out of the space. It can be confusing at times and actions falling into quadrants are based on the individual dog's perception, not our own, but hopefully that helps provide some clarity 😊

​@@SaraOndrako Ah, thanks for response. It does clear some things up, I was a little foggy on the difference between negative reinforcement and positive punishment. I guess its just based on the situation and perception. So for the random street dogs that try to approach us on our walks, i use spatial pressure as P+ to teach em "ya dont have to go home, but you cant approach us" and the spatial pressure I use on my own dog when we are practicing duration sit/down would be R- because I'm looking for a specific behavior. My dog may have had a bad experience in her other home, or was just very submissive and unsure of herself when I first got her. Even with a quiet "ah-ah" she would get low to the ground and go to a corner. It was like she already knew that was a no. I tried to limit its use when I saw this reaction. But then again i did get pretty loud when she tried to touch that centipede. At that point in our relationship, I think I had her trust already and she may have understood I was keeping her out of danger. She no longer crouches down, for the most part. Ive got to say, her confidence has really improved since our training and getting her to face many fears she had before (jumping into the car, walking past horses/cows...) She is completely different dog now and has a BFF doggo she gets to go see often. You'd never know how afraid and introverted she was when I first got her. She has truly blossomed. I am sooo proud of her lol. I do wish she'd stop barking at sheep, but its fun for her I guess so whatevah. Its one of the few times I get to hear her bark. Mostly she just makes gurgling chewbacca noises when rolling around XD (shes my first doggo, she is awesome) I'll shut up about my dog now haha. Thanks again!

Up

No because your basically rewarding her for nothing if she is just standing there doing nothing then she will not no what she is getting treats for! Fear, anxiety and trauma inflicted behaviors shouldn't be seen or trained as a bad behavior because these behaviors are a symptom of there route cause such as fear or anxiety. To sort these behaviors you have to treat the route cause. Genuine bad behaviors you have to give her a negative consequence to the bad behavior so you can reward the good behavior or the dog will not understand or learn anything. (I'm a L3 Diploma qualified canine behaviorist)

What sucks is that not even the proper use of that type of training. Like that was just abuse it wasn’t actually that type of quadrant. A good example would be like a pop of the leash since it’s adding something that isn’t pleasant.

I’m sensing sarcasm hopefully? If not, and the video wasn’t super clear positive= adding in, and punishment = aversive to the dog. Hitting is the action added in and the dog not liking being hit (it being very uncomfortable for the dog) is punishment.

You're welcome to your opinion. This is how I most often see positive punishment used in the training world and with pet parents that don't know any better. I agree - there are less severe forms of positive punishment, and, positive punishment that is out of our control (something that happens unintended that the dog finds punishing). However, this educational content is intended to provide a very specific example to help people think about what they are being asked to do when training their dog. If a pet parent is having a gut feeling that something a "professional" - like the person used in this video - is wrong or not good for their dog, follow that gut instinct and question the methodology. I've met so many pet parents that have simply done what they were told to do despite their intuition because they trusted the "professional".

​@@SaraOndrako pet parent??? 😂😂😂 Repeat after me: PET OWNER!

@@pepedestroyer5974 Repeat after me: No. 👩‍🏫

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