Correction: I said Maji has a WLVL growth of 20% and a base of 5, that's actually Saji! Maji has a Base of 3 and a growth of 50%. The point remains the same, just pretend I said Saji lmao

You forgot to mention that Fate classes have weapon rank caps. For example, the blacksmith can't have higher than B in swords.

Not technically Fire Emblem, but I'm a huge fan of how Berwick Saga does it. It have the weapon rank similar to DSFE, but you have a growth rate for your weapon level which is calculated when you go into combat. Higher weapon rank gives you much higher accuracy. This allows unit uniqueness with their growth rate and the steady progression to better options in weapons. The more you use the unit, the more accurate and reliable they are.

Surprised you didn't mention more with the Laguz. Iirc, in Radiant Dawn, levelling up a Laguz's weapon rank actually upgrades their natural weapon (claw/fang/talon) with additional Might.

8:17 This confused me at first, since I had no idea who "Maji" was, but apparently that's just the Japanese name for Cord...which is especially weird considering the 20% Weapon Level growth and 5 base are Bord's. These units are weird...

Social Knights and Saji/Maji felt really nodtalgic hadn't heard those in a while.

Your videos have such a chill vibe. It’s always fun listening to little pieces of history from one of my favourite game series. If I had the money, I’d support you in an instant.

Story telling elements via weapon level in the old games is so neat of a concept

27:28 there’s actually a big issue with the forging defense that’s soon going to be nakedly apparent. Fates forging system is dependent on getting materials and the main way people get the materials for the weapon types other than the one type of ore they have at their castle is through online interaction. The big issue though is that the online servers are shutting down in april 2024, meaning soon you’ll just be stuck with the one ore deposit you have and forging weapons that don’t use that ore type will naturally be alot harder. This doesn’t mean its impossible, the arena and the bizarre ore trade system(where you trade 5 of one ore for one of a another) do allow you to get a good number of other ore sources but in general it’ll be harder to get a good amount of forged bronze weapons for most of your reclasses, especially for those which you naturally don’t grow ore for.

Interesting topic. The games that force players to start at E rank on new weapon types for reclassing are definitely my least liked; that really discouraged me from ever experimenting with the reclass mechanic. I think I like Three Houses the most from what we currently have. Each unit having their unique aptitude for growth and personal list of learnable spells and Combat Arts really helps with unit identity. I think my dream system would combine 3H and Engage. Have a new "special moves" mechanic that is tied to unit and weapon rank, but also enable everyone to start at a competent weapon rank when they reclass, with varying aptitude for further growth. So for example, reclassing or promoting to Paladin would push units to C Sword C Lance at base (if they weren't already C or higher). Unit A has +Lances, so they start at B and can grow into S, whereas Unit B with -Swords starts at D and can only max out at B. Or something like that, obviously the details would need more thought and work put into it, but that's the idea.

Some Tellius Trivia to throw into the pot: -Path of Radiance was the game that introduced a stat item that can increase weapon ranks. This was especially useful for mages since they split anima magic and so siege tomes come in three different flavors. -In Radiant Dawn, male swordmasters are the only tier 2 class that can hit SS rank. -Radiant Dawn is also the game that brought back limitations on how high a class can get to with any given weapon. It's just less noticeable than in Fates because of how inflated the ranks are.

Gba and engage are 2 different types of basicly near peferectfor how reclassing(or lack of) work, 3h is its own intresting system that if tweaked can aslo be interesting

Hi Lizard! I love these videos!

Yo Lizard, you’re the best FE KZfaqr rn even if algorithm doesn’t know it yet.

Fates should've started more classes at D rank because yeah not everyone is Zoran and can only play with Bronze Weapons so it seems to force a lot of characters to just stick with the thing the weapon they already ranked.

What if most weapons started out feeling same-y, but the weapon rank bonuses where what made them stand apart? Start stacking up hit/crit for swords, damage/hit for lances, and tons of damage for axes as units become more competent in taking advantage of their weapons.

In DSFE, if you switch to (e.g.) Swordmaster you get C rank swords even if you don't otherwise have any proficiency in that weapon type, because it functions like a class base. I like that system as a way of allowing a character to improve their weapon rank (particularly compared to Engage locking certain classes out of higher rank weapons) while still providing a baseline level of performance if you reclass (although that baseline is not so good in some of the other classes in DSFE).

Another banger video? Yes please.

I honestly like the weapon lvl system in FE's 1 and 3 best, especially when it comes to promoting your units. In FE6 for example, I always hated having to stop sword growth and pivot to having to grind out Dieke's axe level just so it can catch up after he promotes to Hero. Same with having to raise sword levels for promoted pegasus knights from scratch, axe/lance levels for promoted draconights, etc. I'd rather have my units able to fully take advantage of a new weapon type from the get-go than have to stop and grind it. And in all the times I've played FE's 1 and 3, I don't think I"ve ever had issues with units not having a high enough weapon level for the part of the game their in - and if for some reason there was, there was probably another unit in my army that could use that high-level sword/lance/etc. instead.

How have I only just now though this video after playing 6 fire emblem games with them realized that weapon rank does something other than let you use a better weapon 😮

These history lessons are great, these comparisons of multiple systems are great for comparing the strengths and weknesses of each game. I completely agree that the benefits of weapon-ranks should either be the same for each type or enhance each weapon's strengths rather than covering weaknesses and homgenising, and that the weapon-rank benefits (and weapon-trinagle benefits) should be stated explicitly to the player (possibly put in the help-menu). I'd do the same for support bonuses. Having played everygame from awakening onwards, I think 3 Houses did weapon-ranks best (its my favourite Fire Emblem and). I like it for the variety, but the boon and the bane system helped units retain identity, as did the character dependent skill-sets, it also made sense to me that to be a swordsmaster, you had to be experienced with using a sword. In games with less of a focus on teaching you could simply say you need less experience for each weapon-level up, although it raises questions on how you could start using mounts, armour or magics. I have ideas for solving these but it goes too far off topic. I don't much miss raising weapon-ranks in Engage, but that might be just because I have other issues with its classing system which I get stuck on before thinking about weapon-ranks. The SoV weapon-system is probably my least favourite, like many things in SoV it just feels too basic. The changes they made to weapon-ranks and weapons going from Awakening to Fates were pretty-much all frot he worse in my opinion. Giving all of the weapon-types (as in bronze, silver etc) a drawback just annoyed made and felt bad to play with(even if sensible analysis shows they made for more tactical decisions). Also, in Fates each class had weapon-rank limits, (Beyond the S-ranks being unique to the weapon specialists), these didn' add much to the classes in my opinion as, once again, the S-Rank weapons had drawbacks which made me not want to use them, and not being able to get a unit to A in both of its weapon-types feels bad.

I've been a FE fan since 2009, and I didn't know the full details of weapon ranks for most of those games. I only knew that the more you use them, the better you get at them, and I knew the FE4 system since it is simple to understand.

I've actually been considering how I would handle weapon rank in an FE-esque game project I'm planning. At the moment, this is what I have in mind as the concept: - What weapon types a unit can use is determined by class - Weapon "rank" is on a per-weapon basis rather than covering the entire weapon type. i.e., if you can use swords, you can use any sword right off the bat, but each has its own rank per unit. - Weapon "ranks" are split into 3 levels. Units start with most weapon proficiencies at level 1, and the max level is 3. You level up your proficiency with a weapon by using it, and some weapons level up faster than others. - When gaining weapon EXP, you mainly gain the EXP for that particular weapon, but also gain a small amount for all other weapons in that weapon class. For example, leveling proficiency with a Shamshir would also slowly help level proficiency for other swords like Rapiers or the basic Arming Sword. To help incentivize using more than one weapon on a unit for the whole game, reaching level 3 rank on a weapon provides increased weapon EXP gain for other weapons of that weapon class, increasing with each additional weapon you get to level 3 rank. So basically, learning to use more swords helps you learn to use more swords. -At level 1, Units suffer penalties when using the weapon as they're inexperienced at using it, with the penalties being higher for more "advanced" weapons than for basic ones (therefore, lower level units trying to use the legendary weapons right off the bat suffer more compared to a high level unit trying out a mid-game tier weapon ). At level 2, the penalties are gone as the Unit has become proficient enough at using it. At level 3, the Unit instead gains combat bonuses and potentially weapon arts, as they've mastered the weapon. - To help with character identity, different units will have certain weapon ranks at level 2 or higher, meaning even 2 units of the same class won't be proficient in the same weapons at the start. And tangentially related, rather than reclassing, units would instead be able to multiclass, restricted mainly by supports.

I can’t believe I chose a topic for a lizard video

I like that every weapon rank system has some value to it. The usual more grindy version is my least favorite, but I enjoy it when you can't grind as easily. Like reclassing Navarre to cavalier and having him at E rank lances really makes him stand out from other cavaliers. You can power through to D tier with iron lances or just max out his sword rank , it's fun to strategize around. Fixed ranks is a fun concept, and it can really help to differentiate classes. But it's still annoying knowing that a class can't use certain strong weapons at all. I think the fe1/3 system would be pretty fun with some tweaks. The randomness is a real pain, but I think giving it fixed growths would fix must of that issue. And giving it threshold bonuses would give it value even after you reach the point where you can equip every weapon.

my favorite weapon rank system... honestly, i'd have to say i'm not a fan of weapon rank grind, so in theory i like Engage's system the most. I just wish personal weapon ranks were a bit more impactful

You mention that E rank Steel Axes aren't important in GBA, but don't mention that they are important in Path of Radiance. Being able to promote to Paladin, take Axe as your secondary weapon type, and immediately use forged Steel Axes is huge for every cav except Kieran.

perhaps its recency bias but I love how engage handles weapon ranks, making sure everyone is able to use decently powerful weapons when reclassed which is further helped by weapons not having durability is really good imo, and the proficiency some characters have gives them a niche in their classes (Along with relying on emblems to give you the ability to reclass)

If you don’t like the weapon rank grind, then’ll you’ll love Radiant Dawn’s system where because most units are pre-promotes they almost all start with a high enough weapon level to use basically every weapon, except the S and SS weapons which aren’t gotten until very late in the game. Laguz are of course a big exception to this, since if you want units like Volug, Janaff, or Ulki to thrive you gotta grind that rank up, which is why I generally just don’t bother with them.

I think something that kind of rounds up weapon ranks is the implications. Like how some games the Hand Axe as an E rank weapon so a character having E rank in axes is less important, lances are always stuck with Javelins at D, so units that gain lances at E on promotion or start with E and lances have more difficulties in comparison

My favorite weapon rank system would probably have to go to Engage honestly. I enjoy being able to just have what weapon rank I want immediately without the grinding while also still having some character variety through the weapons the class allows them to use.

I prefer how Engage (and by extension FE4) handles weapon ranks by making them static to classes and adjustable via a unit's Proficiencies. One thing I utterly despised about earlier FE games is grinding weapon rank, especially in the GBA games. Whenever I replay Binding Blade I have to go out of my way to grind up Light Rank for my main Bishop if I want them to use Aureola during the Endgame.

Weapon Lvl separated by type of weapon and tied to character might make a neat mechanic in a FE with reclassing

Honestly, from what you talk about, it feels like I would like Fire Emblem 1-3 Weapon Rank the best. Something in the background that I don't have to worry too much about seem nice. My only change is that instead of a percent chance of increasing weapon rank, your weapon rank would be tied to your level and if you are a promoted unit. For example, an unprompted unit that levels up 3 times, will get one increase in their weapon rank. However, a promoted unit would only need to increase their level twice to get one increase in their weapon rank. This would cut out of the grind, because you want to level your unit anyway. I've played through Fire Emblem 7, and the weapon rank was okay. I also played through Fire Emblem 3 Houses, which I liked that I did have more control over it, but I do felt like I was losing my patience near the end. If we are going to keep the letter rank system, one good idea is to include an S rank weapon early on, but make it so characters can't use the weapon. It's more that it gives players the options to focus on getting that weapon rank up to S or they can ignore it and sell it for money.

The bonus of +5 Hit and Crit for an S-rank weapon type in the GBA games is not actually hidden. It is right there on the stat screen in FE7 and 8, at least. I have not played through 6 but it is right there in 7 and 8. I imagine though it is like the FF7 magic defense thing.. it is there, right there in the stat screen, but so easy to miss! I just noticed it when I saw Guy's crit chance suddenly rise by 5% after becoming a Swordmaster, and then I looked at the stat screen and noticed the effect. It shows on the stat screen in FE7 and 8, and for 7 it still shows in the Switch online version as I am looking at it on my Guy right now.

When I played the GBA games as a kid, I thought weapon rank was pretty much meaningless because weapon durability made me too anxious to "waste" uses of anything that I couldn't buy more of, so I had all my units use iron weapons almost all the time and kept their cool signature weapons safe in the caravan for later. I skipped the gamecube so the first time ranks really meant anything to me was Awakening, when suddenly they apply combat bonuses (and you need to get at least a D to start using iron weapons instead of bronze or wood), but it still felt like a really minor thing that wasn't really adding to the game. Then Three Houses drops and suddenly weapon ranks are one of the most important factors in advancement, and start giving you cool passive abilities too. And it triggered something in my brain so suddenly I'm writing up customized lesson plans for every student, taking into account their strengths and weaknesses and any preferences they've voiced in order to make sure that they have the best opportunities available to them at every stage in their development.

It's funny you mention steel axes oddly being E rank instead of D rank like the other steel weapons. My favorite thing about that is how it gives Oscar immediate access to steel axes when he promotes to Paladin in Chapter 8 of Path of Radiance.

I wish there was a way to give Weapon Ranks ups in Engage and ranking up your Weapons Level as well. Take Alear for example giving his Libération and Wille Glanz going from D to S rank weapon level. As well as S rank Fists when I heard about Divine Fist art before playing I thought that would be perfect for Alear but nope. Alear is B in Fists and it was an S rank Fist art. So to me at least make like a weapon level booster like the Seraph robes and the others This is on one of Iced Coffee Gaming's Donation Video Donation Guide 2.1 From the OP of a comment chain This is a huge help! I do worry about gold if I’m throwing my spare items in the well instead of selling them, but idk hopefully it works out I really hoped the S rank Fist weapon would be worth it but it seems like it’s not, so I’m not gonna bother with it Mine Same here I was hoping it could be used on Divine Dragon Alear but nope Theirs I’m pretty disappointed with that class, I wish it had S fists, as well as a better Magic growth rate. Alear only has 20% magic growth and gets nothing from Divine Dragon, so a better magic modifier in Divine Dragon could’ve made fists a really appealing option! mine and final comment That is true my thoughts on it. Alear S Swords and Fists. With the Libération +5 and Wille Glanz +5 going up ranks to S as you + them more

My Conquest playthrough be so fire then *BAM*, reclassing reminds me I have to take a million years raising weapon ranks from a Bronze weapon.

I personally feel like all of the different systems could be taken from to create the perfect weapon rank system in a way, but maybe that's just me. Imagine this - Better starting weapon availability like in engage, so you don't have only useless stuff at first, balanced by the stats and sidegrades. Add to that the level grind from the GBA/3ds games, with level caps based on class/character that could be overcome by having support levels with other characters who are masters with that weapon (think like the extra classes through support in fates mixed with the blood system in Genealogy) On top of that, make it so leveling one weapon grants a bit of tertiary experience to other weapons you use (it doesn't make sense that someone who wields lances masterfully is a total dunce with swords and axes, though they'd clearly not be as good with them) Lastly, have two weapon levels. One which determines the weapons you can wield (letters) and one which scales the stats/secondary stats, or better yet skills like in echoes/3H you gain while wielding them (numbers) which wouldn't be affected by wielding different weapon classes. It may sound like a lot, but realistically this could all be displayed with an extra level and could provide a whole lot of extra depth to the weapons system. I'd really like to see more sidegrades for example, rather than having weapons strictly improve and have no downsides.

I think in games that want to skip E and D like engage could allow class incompatible weapons to be used at E/D if personal or emblem proficiency is obtained

Surprised the characters can't double with every weapon considering they can carry 5 of them everywhere Awakening and fates it's funny as gale force allows you to move Again so they can legally switch to a side weapon

17:49 the reason why clicked on the video!

I actually thought you might have brought up weapon arts in the conversation for SoV. They may not technically be weapon ranks but you do build up experience towards a skill gauge by using weapons. Then that character learns the skill and can use it with any weapon they have that has the skill. Feels like their attempt to make using weapons rewarding similarly to weapon ranks, especially without durability as well

I like having weapon ranks that can be grown. Though in many games the weapon rank growth is way too low.

Innate proficiency in Axes and Lances is nice in Engage for Revanche and Represailles. But honestly, given the way that Engage works, I think I'd prefer to just uncap all the weapon ranks (at least in the promoted classes). I don't really care about the unit identity that comes from "this unit can be a better movement staff bot as a Griffin". It's one thing when only one or two units can do something like that, but when a bunch of them can, it doesn't feel special enough to restrict at all.

One fun fact about Thracia is that E rank Wind magic is completely useless. There are no E rank Wind tomes, basic Wind is D rank.

It would be cute if they just handed out S-rank weapons with super cool or funny effects very early in the next entry even though nobody is close to using it just to hype the players up into grinding up their weapon ranks. Imagine if you got a legendary tome in chapter 5 but it’s frustrating because all of your mages are D-rank…

Not sure if anyone else mentioned it but having no weapon ranks takes away that implied storytelling you mentioned when talking about 1+3. Say you have two characters: one is a career soldier and one is a villager who has never picked up a weapon in their life, both can use legendary weapons. Not a big deal, just something I thought about

wait, so does a character favoring a certain weapon type in Engage not automatically increase their rank by 1 in any class that can use that type? only classes that have an innate + rank? its hard finding sources on how engage's weapon rank system works so im definitely confused by it, i just assumed if a class has C rank swords and somebody favors swords then they'd get B rank regardless

I agree that weapon rank isn't the best system overall and that SoV definitely did it in the most fun and interesting way, though I'd say FE4 and Engage probably did it the best since I think it's cool having classes feel more distinct, at least in theory. I don't think any game has done it perfectly quite yet

Watching your videos is interesting, seeing the differences and intricacies of the systems fire emblem has had over the years is cool to see. But you seem to judge most on the prospect of someone doing a repeat playthrough/with a guide. You don't seem to take into account the first playthrough and how these systems effect a first time player. If anything, thats the most important factor

Strength users: hey nerds(mage) how can't you double? It's a book do you even lift? Magic users: how do you carry all those weapons? Robin: I use wind to carry my weapons Both groups;....….smart

I like Awakening's weapon leveling. 😅 Maybe i just prefer the skill grindb that makes it feel like an rpg.

I've always found raising weapon ranks a tedious part of the experience. I prefer the set ranks but with character uniqueness that Holy Blood and Engage's system offer. In Engage's case I just wish character proficiency mattered more often. It's disappointing that a lot of classes don't benefit from various proficiencies even if they're below S rank in those weapons and that even having S rank borderline doesn't matter between lack of S rank weapon availability and expensive forging costs once you do have them. Similarly in Genealogy it would be cool if inherited Holy Blood allowed characters who were otherwise unable to use a weapon at all in their class be able to use one anyways, but this is an understandable limitation of the time given that would be a bit of a nightmare to actually implement.

The Soldier Vs. Villager comparison for the WLv system makes sense in theory, but I would add that Matthis is pretty much exactly your hypothetical soldier (Mostly unimpressive bases, but base WLv of 8) and still isn't considered that good. Granted, most of his reputation as a loser is probably a holdover from DSFE, which completely failed to represent this aspect of his gameplay (base D rank) and thus left him pretty much trash; but he's still rated low enough in the originals to show that either extreme isn't really enough to stand out in context.

i let azel in fe4 use fire a lot despite how bad fire magic was only to realize that in fe4 using a certain type of weapon does not increase the mastery level

FE1 Castor is absolutely RUINED by his weapon level growth. He would be one of, if not the best bow units in the game if he could use the Parthia, but good luck getting there with a 20% growth

Multiple S ranks is the way to go, especially in 2024. Its so stupid you have zero control having to pick which S rank you want in a gba game outside fe6 and have to force someone to use a different weapon in order to not get an s rank on an undesired weapon type. As a game designer myself in the fettrpg space, weapon grinding should be done in on-base

"Engage maps can go pretty quick", I don't think you have ever played maddening. It took me 70 hours to reach chapter 18 on my first run.

yeah i think weapon rank grinding is maybe my least favourite thing in FE i just find it mindblowingly tedious; the series really isnt made with grinding of any sort in mind at all so basically requiring you to do it just feels very bad to me. Sure if you just use the units you're going to use you'll probably get where you need. But it _feels bad._ (and where i dont mind grinding's inclusion is when the game just goes 'yeah you dont need to do this but if you'd feel more comfy with a level or two more to go around i'll just leave some guys to mop up here for you' and sure you can just go ham with it but youre really neither intended nor required to do so)

E and D ranks would be fine if promoted classes had higher base weapon ranks, similar to DSFE. Or if arena had an option to either fight for exp or train to boost weapon ranks. In Awakening and Fates it especially sucks if units reclass options are suboptimal. Like Ricken having Cavalier, Felicia having Mercenary or Nyx having Outlaw, which could work if magic weapons weren't C rank or if their promotions had higher base weapon ranks. Ricken at least has Discipline and Awakening wexp gain is 2 per round of combat as opposed to Fates where it's 1, so Felicia and Nyx need to go through 50 rounds of combat with her very low strength to use magic weapons, which just sucks. Felicia in particular would have a niche in Birthright of using Bolt Axe on a regular basis, since that route has only 2 units that can use axes at base - Rinkah and Scarlet - both with low magic.

It's weird that you ignore the manual in FE1, easy way to get something ridiculous like +7 weapon level and then ignore the system entirely.

Sheesh

Want to add for fates: S rank weapons are locked to foot classes and outside of rev you only get 3/4 S rank weapons per route. Most of the S rank classes are not good at combat and fates S rank weapons are completely awful so it doesnt help their combat outside of Pursuer and Excalibur being pretty decent. The only good classes out of these are Sniper abd Sorcerer the rest are kinda poopoo at combat or just wannabe mounted classes and yeah the S rank weapons dont really help them with their combat 💀

First

Easy. Berwick Saga had an interesting take on Weapon Rank not so much that it is new but it goes back to an FE1 and 3 Weapon Level system where you can gain 1 Weapon Level on Level Up but you can also grind for Weapon Levels. Since they can go as high as 30,Weapons do not have Hit Rates but an Accuracy Coefficient where it multiplies your Weapon Level by said Coefficient and you get your basic hit rate from it. I was thinking of having a Coefficient System for Critical Hits as well as opposed to just a flat Critical Hit Rate boost. Sorta blend in Thracia Crits to said Critical Hits. And have said Critical Coefficients activate either on Follow-up or Counterattack.