Another interesting video. Floating solar would fit nicely with most pumped hydro installations. The panels could help reduce evaporation, while the cooling effect of the water would help increase the efficiency of the panels. The close proximity would also help reduce transmission losses.

An excellent video. However, the potential potential for pumped hydro is much bigger than presented here. As Richard Feynman said, there is plenty of room at the bottom. Namely, the lower reservoir does not need to be above ground. If it is excavated underground, the head can be optimized and potential sites multiplied. This is not even mere theory, as a demonstration plant is being constructed at the Pyhäsalmi mine in Finland. This is the deepest mine in Europe, 1400m.

I love this guys style. It's like scientific discussions for the layman. The format of the videos is well thought out and the content is focused. I love it. Keep up the good work sir.

Hmm . . . A solution that doesn't decimate our migrating salmon and birds, destroy our environment and might even create jobs! You just made my day! In the middle of this hellish summer, we all needed some optimistic news. Thank you, Dave!

I went round the pumped storage hydropower in North Wales went it first opened, followed by a trip round the centre for alternative technology in Mid wales when they opened in the early 1970s. They had a profound effect on my thinking especially as I was working for Shell at the Stanlow Oil Refinery at the time.

I like this channel because I feel I'm being informed, not indoctrinated. More of the same, please.

This is why engineers should be setting energy policy and not uninformed politicians.

We're already using pumped hydro effectively here in Colorado (home of NREL, pronounced "enrel", by the way). We could use more of it, however. All of the major utilities in the state are pushing for 80% renewables mix for customers in the state by 2030. It seems achievable, which is great. These closed loop hydro plants could be very useful, but my concern is the construction times. We will likely need other tech to help us get to a more resilient grid, but this was always going to be the case. It's good to know that we have more options, though. We're going to need them all!

Presumably the water above and below can be covered with floating solar panels for power and anti evaporation.

4:22 - 'that assumption may not hold water' 😅. Dave is a comedic genius as well as providing highly informative and researched videos.

The Dinorwig scheme in Wales is well worth a visit. You can climb up the side of the mountain above the power station, this involves climbing up the redundant slate mine, (very interesting) and feel the mountain hum as water is pumped up the mountain during the day ready to be used at peak times.

I didn't expect that there were so many potential spaces to implement pumped storage hydropower. Gives me a lot of hope actually

This video on pumped storage hydropower is a total eye-opener! 🤯💧 It's incredible to witness the untapped potential of this technology, and I'm convinced it's the key to a greener tomorrow. Let's share this knowledge and work together for a cleaner planet!

Pumped storage is where we are technologically as far as being able to store energy at scale. We need to do more of it, and keep working on all the other things, too.

As always, a well researched and explained video. It underlines - again - that humanities main problem is not the lack of solutions.

This gives a little hope. It becomes clearer and clearer that we can solve our problems on this planet,.... if we can get enough of the species in a similar mindset and pull in the right direction. Thanks, Dave. Love you, Man.

There’s been hydro storage at Niagara Falls for decades. They divert water at night into a reservoir. During the day it’s released and goes to the sir Adam Beck generating station

Excellent video thank you! Having lived on a rural plot of land without municipal water supply for more than two decades, I quickly learned about the great value of a hydram pump about 400m from my water tank, at a gradual upslope of about 15 degrees. I'm now living in a city suburb and have been thinking that, in addition to solar power, it should work if I have a water tank about 5m high that can easily be filled using solar power (or a self-made ram pump), and connecting it to a little turbine at ground level, which in turn generated some electricity to charge the solar batteries, esp. at night. I do see examples of building a small closed-loop hydropower system for one's own home. Will follow it up! The reason why it is vital to consider such is simple: we cannot trust the government here or any corporation to provide consistent network power (I am from South Africa), where self-sufficiency is the key to future survival.

It's good to see a video about solutions. I understand the need to ring the alarm bell, which you do very well, but it's good to also focus on practical solutions that can be done right now.

As an engineer I worked on two pumped storage stations including Dinorwic featured in your vid. The system of pumped storage works well, is fairly low tech and safe compared with the amount of energy that can be stored. Sadly I also know how difficult it was to find a site to build a new pump storage station. There is always a strong lobby, an area of SSI or a national park to be considered. You did not show the areas in the uk identified in the study, Thank you for your work on this topic.

Really nice video! And I have to say we need these positive news and ideas, what one could lobby for to avoid catastrophe! 😊 Two thoughts came up with me: one, you could use lightly “contaminated” water, so no competition with drinking water; two: put solar panels on top of the reservoirs! The you reduce evaporation and increase energy production, too!

It always struck me as weird that pump-hydro had disappeared

I've been onboard with adding more pumped hydro as a climate friendly solution for decades now and I'm 35. We can even use a few old mines in certain cases, it's really cool.

The Pedreira installation shown in the IHA map (São Paulo, Brazil) is an example of the pitfalls of pumped hydro. As the city grew, people realized they needed THAT WATER for human consumption; nowadays that installation is just used as a flood control device rather than to store energy.

We have one of these set up where I live in upstate NY. It works great. Another one was planned but received pushback from the public because of the disruption to the cliff face that would be disturbed to run the pipes and cables. Maybe the Boring Co could play a part here so the entire construction could be unseen.

I heard somewhere that someone was looking at using old shaft mines for pumped hydro . Utilizing the height difference from the mine depth, and many are already grid connected

Finaly some good news. Thank you!

Great video, Dave! Good news, I'm glad to see!

Great video Dave! I'm glad there are people trying to make a difference now

I'm glad to see the Pacific Northwest in the US has two sites in the planning stages given the complete lack of facilities in a portion of it, probably due to the large amount of hydroelectric dams (though we're starting to decommission those!). I'm curious about the knock-on ecologic benefits, like if they're helpful for migratory birds and what kind of wildlife they're able to support without risking damage to turbines, etc. It would be neat to see something like solar pv canopies used in tandem to help reduce evaporation and cool the pv panels. I also wonder how much could be done with hazardous water from mining run-off, etc. that never gets properly cleaned up. If it's closed loop then theoretically if it doesn't damage the equipment it could be reused. Also what kind of potential there is for repurposing abandoned mines, for the elevation difference alone if nothing else

This is a great subject! I've been reading about it and actually learned about a neat subset of this: the pumped seawater hydro plant. It takes ocean water and pumps it up a shoreside mountain. No need to involve fresh water reserves, nor river ecosystems. This is good if you are in a dry region, or on an island like the Azores.

I’m quite fascinated by this subject because we live on a site where there was a potential to install a micro pumped storage hydro system. Living next to a massive lake and on the slope down to the lake offers the potential to build a pond further up from our property and then using excess solar in the day to pump up to it and then it drains in the night to provide trickle feed power. It’s slightly theoretical and we have hurdles to overcome but I just see a massive battery every morning when I look out the window!

Brilliant as always 💚

The efficiency, scale potential, and lack of needing exotic materials for construction made me a fan of all hydro, including closed-loop pumped hydro. I was (pleasantly) surprised to see so many operational units of pumped hydro in the US.

I love the positive energy you fluidly present here. I wish the world would absorb this idea.

Thanks for this - I've always been a fan of pumped storage ever since I first climbed in the slate quarries above Dinorwig - good to see that there is more capacity than had been thought.

Another enlightening, informative and well-presented podcast Dave! Thanks!

Yay!! I've always thought "gravity battery" is our best, simplest energy storage. The "water tower" concept is widely used already as a way to increase water pressure in small towns. It would be no different to have the same or similar system with an over/under set up where there are an above and below ground reservoirs pass/pump water between them. It's simple, easy, and exists today.

I'm a big fan of pumped hydro, so I am glad to see this video and glad to see that there IS some activity in this area.

I am 42 years old and so far, I learned that if you have some logical and simple solution for a problem, it will never be chosen.

I'm very pleased that you mentioned how disastrous the scheme of deep sea mining will be. Perhaps you could make a video dedicated to that subject because those who will profit the most from it are currently attempting to rush the permitting process along without allowing the essential studies to be carried out properly.

As I expressed in the Patreon preview, I am so happy you've posted this report! Thank you, Dave! And… this time I'll refrain from saying more.

Here in NJ, the Yards Creek facility was built in 1965. It is currently used to help regulate energy generation from nuclear and fossil fuel plants. It has been in operation for more than half a century. Proven technology. Two years ago it was purchased by REV Renewables - a good sign!

Love this channel, always so comprehensively backed up, no hype, just a rational presentation with a very nice modulated voice ! Thank you.

This makes more sense to me than building a bazillion "disposable" batteries. How efficient is the charge/discharge cycle of pumped storage hydro compared to LiPo's ? Certainly worth giving a try. Thanks for the video!

"Insane profit-driven antics" is practically the mission statement of our modern world. THAT is the true problem to be solved.

When i was a kid they built the (then) largest Pumped Hydro facility in the world not far from my home in Ludington Michigan. They say it has 19.5 GWh of storage over a 9 hour discharge cycle. Its lower reservoir is Lake Michigan so only an upper basin needed to be built. I have heard of many mines in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, which are closed, and with their large height difference between the bottom and the surface, the amount of water needed is less for the same storage. In many cases the mines are filling with water anyway. Additionally many mines still have electric lines run to them so that's another bonus. Using such sites means very little chance of the NIMBYs getting in the way as well!

Another angle for pumped storage that’s now being pursued is the conversion of existing one-way hydro schemes to pumped storage - where the lower level has a lake rather than just a river for run-off. The large hydro scheme in Scotland connecting Loch Sloy with Loch Lomond is planning an upgrade to pumped storage, as it was originally conceived in the 1930s. There’s a good Wikipedia article on Sloy Dam, well worth a read!

To me, pumped hydro is a prime example of the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid), and definitely needs to be more widely implemented. I also see the great potential of combining with floating solar as commented by @1964mcqueen earlier. I really appreciate all your videos! Thank you.

I wonder if the fossil fuel industry will find some way to hamstring this. Like using their friends in power to reduce and governmental help and increasing the difficulty in getting them built.

This appears to be a clear win on our journey to a clean, sustainable grid!

Time to pump the extra seawater uphill for some new saltwater lakes. What I love about these systems is they convert sporadic power based on Wind/Solar into consistent baseload power that can truly replace coal and gas plants. It is also technically possible to use DC direct drive pumps that would spin faster as the angle of the sun improved. I do not know whether that is realistic in all applications, I only know about that for small systems. If it did work, you could avoid the efficiency losses from the power inversion from DC to AC.

Does pumped hydro actually need fresh water? Well, obviously if it's going to interact a fair amount with the surrounding natural ecosystem, you would want fresh water, but there should still be plenty of sites near the sea that could use sea water, as well as using the ocean as a bottom-level reservoir (as long as there's limited risk of contamination). You could also potentially use underground cavities as the lower reservoir, in the appropriate context.

It seems to me there is a synergy with pumped hydro and wind. Both tend to want to be at height ...... but the pumped hydro would need a suitable nearby low spot as well. It may well be a good idea to look at, if not micro, then at least smaller pond sized hydro if it is to be used for balancing the unpredictable wind farms. This would extend the useful time an instillation could produce for and make controlling the Grid an easier task! This is often overlooked by planners! I do have to wonder about the carbon footprint of all the concrete needed for this though ;o)

the subtle sarcastic humour makes ur highly educational videos unique on the field. 👍

The intro is pure gold. 😊

Good dose of optimism, thanks Dave! These systems would be so low-tech and cheap compared to equivalent capacity battery-based systems. How about putting the reservoirs underground, or using underground capacity that's already there?

And one vaporation surpression system are? Vapor cooled Solarcells;)

Excellent video, and on a completely different note, I love the background. The wall color is gorgeous, books are lovely and lighting is very soothing. Thank you for making it easy to watch.

Hi Dave - Hope all is well with you. I rewatched the end to make sure that you really did say 'see you next week'. Your sermons are one of the highlights of my Sunday evenings (Who am I kidding? My Sunday evenings rarely have any other highlights) so I was a bit discombobulated when there was no new upload. I even wondered if it was really Sunday. Looking forward to the next video, whenever it comes out. Be well.

Absolutely fascinating! 🤓 Pumped storage hydropower is the hidden gem in the world of renewable energy. We need to shout from the rooftops about its potential and make sure our leaders invest in this incredible technology. Let's create a cleaner and greener future together! 🌱🌎 Hi Simon 😀

Grid scale batteries best purpose is to provide short term smoothing of demand so the pumped hydro can be optimized against it. Hydro can be adjusted on an hourly basis while batteries are a fraction of a second. Together they can be more effective than one of them on their own.

finally someone talks about it . I only tried to convince friends of this idea before without having heard anyone else supporting. the biggest caviar might be the financial return. the water origin to fill it at least the first time is an essential question. otherwise every politician and investor should know about this. might be the best solution to a whole lot of issues. great thanks.

Well done! Great info! Appreciate your scholarship and efforts!

It would be interesting what kind of carbon footprint the construction of such hydro plants are. I would expect a lot of rock needs to be crushed and moved and a lot of concrete poured. But as someone living kind of near the Alps I hope the numbers work out! The European grid could use it!

Would it make any sense (have no idea how the numbers would work out) for creating small scale pumped hydro for private use vs using batteries.

Appreciate you sharing your time making these very insightful videos.

The executive summary from the IFPSH in September 2021 states ‘While PSH is a mature technology, there are emerging innovations: -- installing PSH at disused deep mines (combined with heating systems), non-powered dams (and their reservoirs), off-river PSH and seawater (as the low-level reservoir), PSH represents vast untapped potential’. These proposals do not include damming rivers for new reservoirs or inundating habitation as the Australian study does. PSH schemes can include off-river bunded reservoirs usually on hill tops that do not interfere with water courses, can augment existing water supply schemes and provide additional facilities such as strategic high-level reservoirs to fight forest fires and augment summer water supply. Schemes can include disused quarries and closed opencast coal pits and deep coal mines. The UK has some 440 large dams (>15m in height) with many in series up valleys or at sites close in horizontal distance but with considerable differences in elevation. There are a similar number of lakes and high-level tarns as well as many abandoned quarries that can be developed for storage. Many existing reservoirs are in Pennine valleys often 200m below flat-topped hills where bunded reservoirs could be built and connected by pipes rather than tunnels making them quicker to build yet still economically viable. In summer, when less power is needed, the reservoirs can provide additional storage during drought and strategic firefighting water in case of forest or grass fires. There are also some 1,500 deep mine shafts in the UK with many filling with water from 12ᵒC up to 21°C that could be developed as combined thermal and PSH systems. The recent BEIS study on energy storage identifies batteries as being the most suitable form of short-duration storage (SDS). According to several studies, PSH has the lowest levelized cost for long-duration storage (LDS), and, as the most mature technology, it has the most predictable costs for both implementation and management. By adopting the innovations recommended by the IFPSH, I carried out a desk study for England and Wales that identified some 110 possible economic schemes.

In Switzerland we have some of them. Up to 1.0 GW-power-capacity. Nantes de Drance: 900 MW power, capacity 20 hours = 18 GWh energy PSW Limmern: 1000 MW power, capacity 33 hours = 33 GWh energy The profitability depends strong on the market prices and the rules of the market. With one of the latest projects, the investors nearly bancrupted, because of changing rules. But now with the war, the prices are high and they made a lot of money.

Thanks for this - I needed a dose of positivity to counteract my current eco-depression!

Thanks for highlighting the Helms Pump Storage project by PG&E. I was fortunate enough to be attending Fresno State University when PG&E offered a field trip for engineering students to see the site during construction, an incredible bit of tunneling. Later, as a surveyor for PG&E, I did a topographic survey in the same area. Back when it was originally conceived, the idea was they could use excess power at night from the Diablo Canyon Nuclear power station to pump the water uphill. I'm happy to see it featured on your channel. Thanks for all your thoughtful videos. All the best from California!

Thanks for all the info, Dave.

Locality matters a lot for energy storage. For example the map of potential sites in Australia points to it being a good solution in the eastern states, but not Perth or Adelaide.

Thank you. I appreciate the info as always. I also appreciate your rational reasoned manner in presenting it .

This could go anywhere, just have one reservoir at the surface and another underground. It would raise the cost, but in a resource based economy, it's totally worth the investment.

When he stated that 2 olympic sized swimming pools of water could produce a significant amount of power my thoughts turned to High Rises. One pool on the roof and one pool in a sub basement. Combine that with the Wind and solar modules that he had talked about earlier. You could have an electricity exporting building.

Makes sense to me. I come from Norway with 90+% hydro power. Of course the vast majority of water just spill out into the fjords. Pumping it back up makes sense when power prices on the spot market is zero or even negative. Of course having the Norwegian grid connected through Acer and crazy EU auction scheme meant to screw customer by having highest power prices possible is just simply stupid. That throws away the only significant competitive advantage this small country has.

Unfortunately there's level of scepticism in Australia in pumped hydro for a few reasons, one of which was caused by a proposal for pumped hydro a few years ago, but instead of using renewable energy to pump the water up, it was instead proposed using traditional fossil fuel power generation to do so, but still somehow being sold as a green form of power. Secondly was the threat of droughts and water shortage which could undermine available water which people feel would be better used for farming and consumption.

Pumped storage schemes need to be as efficient as possible. As to floating solar, the warmth from the panels may help to warm the water and reduce frictional losses. Tin or stainless stell wires may help to spread the heat.

Thank you for keeping our hopes up. This is really good news.

I love your videos and have been watching them since last 3 years without fail. Thank you for existing. You bring positivity and solutions that one can't ignore.

I love this idea. Haven’t seen this in person. A company did propose this in my area. Unfortunately they wanted to flood a main road between two mountain villages that serves as the only access for all the residents. It didn’t happen.

Seems like a great solution to energy storage...

I was about 8 years old in the early 1970's when I was brought on a school trip to Turlough Hill in Wicklow, Ireland, one of the first pumped storage system. It still functions perfectly, coming up to half a century after its construction. I regularly hike up around it. Its a little unsightly, as are the 220KV lines running up to it, but its an invaluable source of storage for the Irish grid. There can be no doubting that they can be a problem in our mountains - they involve serious heavy engineering and lots of new power lines, but there are plenty of possible sites available over most of Europe.

I love the "not holding water" joke. Keep those in.

Excellent video. Most promising practical solution i have seen so far. Thanks so much.

I never really thought of pumped hydro as a small scale battery solution. I always associated it with large scale projects. But if one thinks small scale you could see a system of ground-level storage tanks similar to the large water tanks used on commercial farms. These could be connected to boreholes which would pump water from below ground into the tanks using solar panels mounted on top of the tanks. Then this water could be allowed to fall back underground through a turbine when power is needed. The beauty of this system would be its modular nature and its easy scalability. All the components are readily available and if you need more capacity you just drill more boreholes and install more tanks.

Insane profit-driven antics never did hold water. How true! Thanks Dave, great

Once again, thank you for an uplifting video. I too got the memo that the pumped hydro solution had run dry. It seemed unlikely to me so I'm glad to hear there is still room for development.

Thoroughly entertaining And informative. Thx Dave

This is amazing news! Thanks for the update!

That's a very good idea. Thanks for sharing it with us and take care of yourself.

They have been doing this at Ben Cruachan in Argyllshire for a very long time. Loch Awe is the lower reservoir, and there is an artificial reservoir about 2,000ft higher up, on nearby Ben Cruachan. Scottish Hydroelectric sells expensive on-peak power to the public in the evening by passing the high reservoir water through turbines in the mountain then into Loch Awe at the foot of the mountain. The company then buys cheap off-peak nuclear power to pump the water in Loch Awe back up the 2,000ft to the reservoir high up on Ben Cruachan. High capital cost, but near zero operating cost.

A provocative (in the right sort of way) video. My imediate thought (reinforced by your showing of the great Dinorwig quarry scheme) was using old coal mines as the lower resevoir. I've seen talk of falling weight energy storage systems in the shafts, but water makes a wonderful weight and allows the use of the addits as "weight" storage. Make the upper storage as large or small as you have space for.

Good one Dave, thank you from Australia.

This is great! Thanks for the valuable info👍

as usual for each Sunday, THANKS FOR THE VIDEO!

Thanks for this useful discussion.However there can be plenty of ideas for storing hydropower,like using a large empty vessel inside a large water resorvoir,the bottom of the empty vessel fixed to the bottom of the resirvoir where water can rush from resorvoir to empty vessel through a power generator and can be manipulated as per requirements.

Excellent video from an excellent channel. Thanks Dave

Please take a look at 'Pumped Seawater Hydro'. The potential is, also gargantuan. You only need one reservoir, as the other is the ocean. Sites were identified in the west of Ireland, with up to 500GWh capacity, across eleven small valleys.