The Inside Story: Government and Railways - Sir Philip Rutnam

The Inside Story: Government and Railways - Sir Philip Rutnam | The Big Interview

Рет қаралды 3,911

Күн бұрын

The inner workings of the Department for Transport and Government finances are revealed in this fascinating interview with former Permanent Secretary of both the Department for Transport and the Home Office, Sir Philip Rutnam.
Having spent his career as a senior civil servant, including in roles within the Treasury, there is no one better to tell the inside story of the Government’s relationship with railways.
In the interview:
00:00 Intro
How does public expenditure work?
02:55 What are comprehensive spending reviews?
05:49 Is capital versus opex a relevant distinction or is it all just cash?
07:38 We hear a lot about Fiscal Rules. What are they and why do they matter?
11:54 Capital is all about creating wealth. Are Fiscal Rules counterproductive here?
14:53 In the March 2024 budget, the Chancellor said he was going to protect the 1.0% real increase in public expenditure. What does that mean and if it’s just a forecast, can’t it just get changed? And does it have any effect on railway finances?
19:00 HS2
20:00 Was the cancellation of HS2 Phase 2a a triumph of the Treasury mindset over the Department for Transport mindset? Had the Treasury never bought into it?
24:14 How was it possible for Prime Minister Rishi Sunak to cancel HS2 Phase 2 without any parliamentary scrutiny or debate?
26:13 Did the cancellation of HS2 Phase 2a make a mockery of the parliamentary process?
27:42 How it was going to be funded? And is it an urban myth that the money can’t be reallocated elsewhere?
32:00 Network North
35:19 If you were still Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport, what would your strategy be to deal with capacity on the WCML?
39:53 The role of private finance
Business Cases
42:29 Do you think traditional cost benefit analysis / Webtag is appropriate anymore?
47:06 What about wider economic benefits?
50:01 What about the Scottish model? Could we learn from that?
Outlook for Public Finances
51:43 Assuming Labour do win, how much manoeuvring room does Rachel Reeve have?
56:30 Great British Railways, Rail Reform Bill - good, bad, anything to make a difference?
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Credits:
Presenters - Nigel Harris (@railnigel on X) & Richard Bowker CBE (@SRichardBowker). General Manager: Stef Foster (@stefatrail)

Пікірлер: 52

@christopherfox735 3 ай бұрын

I have to say Green Signals gets better & better. Another excellent & informative episode that shows what can be done if you ask intelligent questions with people who are willing to answer them. Really interesting & you both make complex issues accessible to us normal folk. Well done!

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

That's very kind Christopher, thank you. That's exactly what we try to do - explain complex issues in an accessible way, so really pleased to hear it's hitting the spot!

@superted6960 3 ай бұрын

This was a fascinating watch. I started out thinking I might be able to pick holes in the various comments put forward (my cynical mind) but got to the end agreeing with pretty much everything that was said. It's a pity that this sort of i/v doesn't find its way into the national media. I'm thinking particularly the BBC, who have an obligation "to inform" but that's another argument. Thank you to all involved here.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Very pleased to hear you surprised yourself! I imagine they'll be plenty of other people who find the same. Thank you for the very kind comments about the interview too.

@harri2626 3 ай бұрын

How refreshing to hear an honest and thoughtful analysis of government thinking and finances. If Sir Philip is typical of the mindset in the DfT, then all is not lost. It renews my faith in the often denigrated British establishment.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

What a great comment. Thanks!

@mervynrogers7354 17 күн бұрын

Another excellent interview. Three old buffers who really know their stuff!

@steveg5881 3 ай бұрын

What a great interview with an exceptionally astute man. Together you are a superb team and balance your questions so well. Please put an entry in your diaries to interview Richard again before Christmas, whatever he is doing by then. His insight and your questioning will help put the new government's arrangements into perspective on all matter of subjects, not just railways. This format is so much better than TV interviews. Thanks again, looking forward to the next one.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

A very good idea re interviewing Philip again before Christmas Steve. I don't doubt we'll be asking him to join us again in future.

@1954alister 3 ай бұрын

What a great interview. Gave a good Insight to how government works

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it - it certainly sheds some light, doesn't it?

@briannewton9283 3 ай бұрын

Very well done to all of you! Another fascinating interview with intelligent questions and clear, concise answers. Green Signals really is going from strength to strength with the calibre of top level guests that it is managing to attract!

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks Brian. Really glad you are enjoying it!

@OlanKenny 3 ай бұрын

Sir Phillip seems to be a sensible and knowledgeable figure. Certainly seems to a shortage of such people anywhere near the DfT nowadays.

@alexwilson9396 3 ай бұрын

Same civil servant who questioned the pacer replacement programme

@AndyMacGillivray-qh7rv 3 ай бұрын

What a coo and great to hear the inside view.

@nigelgiles902 3 ай бұрын

Excellent once again, well done chaps. After the recent turnaround with respect to the Alstom site in Derby, I'd like to think there are Government insiders watching your efforts and they really make a difference...

@guyb3785 3 ай бұрын

Great pod cast. All i will say other countries can Build High Speed Railway why can't we

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the feedback. Appreciate it!

@mrcogginsgarage7062 3 ай бұрын

Probably your best interview yet chaps most insightful thanks.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

That's wonderful to hear, thanks for that. Glad you found it insightful - so did we!

@allanmorton6022 3 ай бұрын

Really impressed with the quality of interview guests you are attracting. Another excellent video. Great to hear from key expert people you never know exist! Really interesting to hear his HS2 views which reinforces the view that the PM really detests rail personally. Bring on the boring reliable railway with increased resilience as small incidents still cause too much disruption. Looking forward to more key interviews as you are filling a information void in areas most people know nothing about.

@ipcress1066 3 ай бұрын

Quite fascinating and glad we left off with some degree of positivity. I can’t help in thinking scrapping 2A of HS2 will be viewed in future years as a significant failure of government and society. The old adage of “value is remembered long after cost is forgotten” perfectly sums up HS1 given it is now viewed as essential infrastructure 👍

@peebee143 2 ай бұрын

What a delightfully simplistic way of speaking and question answering Sir Philip has! Such a contrast to the usual airy-fairy, avoid the question at all costs way of speaking that politicians usually have. An altogether very likeable guy, shame there's not a lot more of his ilk dwelling within the halls of power.

@GreenSignals 2 ай бұрын

Couldn't agree more. He's very straight-talking.

@HoggRyan 3 ай бұрын

Another very interesting episode! Thanks to all of you!

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

You are most welcome Ryan. Thanks!

@GreenJimll 3 ай бұрын

I'm glad that the "special budget" and "specific borrowing" memes have been put to bed in this conversation. ISTR arguing about HS2 funding many years ago with a big supporter of the scheme who insisted that it was a special pot of money that didn't affect the rest of the railway and DfT's funding and wouldn't accept my premise that it was all from the same Treasury pot.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

So now you have the satisfaction of knowing you were right and they were wrong!

@musiqtee 3 ай бұрын

I wish some questions would touch upon how different government spending comes out regarding ownership of expenditure targets, MMT, quantitative easing and ownership of bonds (public debt), financial instruments and general private debt (creditors) - in light of increased financialisation of the real economy towards nominal value growth.

@stevepayne1369 3 ай бұрын

Thankyou again Nigel and Richard. Your show and interviews with leading rail figures are superb. Your banter and humour brightens my day and your wealth of knowledge is second to none. I'm certain your interview and comments on Derby Alstom crisis have encouraged the government to take decisive action. Keep up the good work, thankyou so much, Steve Payne

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

How very kind of you Steve. Thanks very much. And we're very pleased to hear that our humour brightens your day too! We hope that our interview with Nick Crossfield made a positive difference too.

@grenfellroad8394 3 ай бұрын

I definitely agree with you all that the hoops jumped through to get something approved through parliament should not so easily be destroyed by one persons dislike of a project. Fantastic interview with a very informative focus on what it’s like in the civil service, working with successive governments to get things sorted, and the financial implications of those deals. Well done.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Many thanks for the kind comments. It was a real eye-opener wasn't it?

@MrDixie951 3 ай бұрын

Another fantastic offering gentlemen, keep them coming

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks, really pleased you enjoyed it. We certainly intend to keep them coming!

@BenRattigan 3 ай бұрын

Fascinating, a great episode.

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks Ben!

@gordondudman240 3 ай бұрын

The thing that struck me was the discussion about the ability of a PM to override the parliamentary process. I’m old enough to remember the same happening with a well developed BAC TSR-2 strike aircraft. The decision being to buy the American F111. Brilliant programme btw.

@Jonathan_55018 3 ай бұрын

great video as dean martin once said memories are made of this

@Wacky_Races 3 ай бұрын

What a thoroughly informative episode. Very interesting. Well done 👏🏻 😊

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Glad you thought so, we did too!

@tonysheppard5457 3 ай бұрын

Wow I nearly didn't watch this..... It was fascinating and very interesting. Very pleased I watched it all.... Keep up the good work..

@GreenSignals 3 ай бұрын

Thanks for that Tony! Would be really interested to know why you nearly didn't watch and what made you change your mind?

@tonysheppard5457 3 ай бұрын

Well I'm a career railwayman and I assumed it would be boring (sorry) but I'd loved the previous editions of Green signals so I said I give it 5 mins.... Well I watched to the end... I love to have him back talk about hs1, Elizabeth line. I think I'd find it very interesting his views.

@davidwil58 3 ай бұрын

Those involved in HS2 who were passionate about the project, should’ve had the sense to start it from the north. Just doing this would’ve got more of the public on side, when they saw things happening. But it became seen so cynically because yet again everything became London and southern centric.

@davidwil58 3 ай бұрын

An interesting guest, although I think the civil service generally - the ‘blob’ - should be criticised more. They are in jobs for life but aren’t accountable when things go wrong, they often frustrate what the government wants to do, and many of them now are working from home and not getting much done. We’re being taxed to the hilt and there’s a general feeling that nothing works well and things are declining. Why is that, and where is all our money going? There has to be waste and inefficiency, and to just blame the government but civil servants are there in perpetuity regardless of performance. With regards to the Office of Budget Responsibility, someone needs to mention the fact that they’ve never been right on anything, and are usually miles off with their forecasts! Great podcast, but just needs a bit more balance or pushback on certain things now and again.

@stephenchaytow6855 3 ай бұрын

Thanks for a most engaging piece. Some time ago, a respected transport professional from "The North" told me that HM Treasury would have to get used to Benefit / Cost ratios from Business Cases being far lower in the North and other non London regions to justify/continue levelling up away from London and the South East. I listened to Sir Philip's aspirations and it seems that the Green Book model is today not much changed (yet) to reflect this, along with the social and environmental dimensions. However, if not addressed, the only block to a continuing skills exit will be rising property prices and rentals. TfN's new strategic transport plan shows what could be achieved - what a prize! For people do not easily choose to leave their community and roots.

@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834 3 ай бұрын

the machinations of Governments

@ricktownend9144 3 ай бұрын

Really Really good episode! Re the way infrastructure projects are funded (out of the general pot, rather than calculated against future income streams), why? - or rather why not? Has it been tried and failed? Surely not in private industries - in fact, wasn't the Chiltern Evergreen project calculated on future revenues rather than paid for out of surplus operating cash? Why cannot governments do this? - or is it just that they don't, perhaps because of election time-frames etc.?

@hughcarr7663 3 ай бұрын

Couple of comments on HS2 funding and the link (or not) to Network North: 1 - yes, all govt funding (tax and borrowing) is in one pot, and not hypothecated, so funding wasnt "reserved" for HS2 and can still be borrowed and spent elsewhere 2 - but, lenders / investors will price lending according to risk; a UK govt not generating the economic benefits (and thus tax receipts) of HS2 but borrowing the same funds to fill potholes and mend bus shelters will eventually become more risky and less attractve to investors, so the price goes up - the borrowing has to be repaid, but from a pot that is smaller as teh HS2 benefits have not pushed up GDP and tax income 3 - if everything is all in one pot, and govt can borrow for what it wants, why hasn't it borrowed before now for Netwrok North schemes? That was a policy choice, not an economic or financial one, by the logic we are given here. 4 - UK govt borrowed £121billion in 23/24 - enoiugh to pay for HS2 even by the worst estimates. HS2 can be afforded if govt wants to, but govt has choen not to

@GreenJimll 3 ай бұрын

Unless of course the economic benefit of fixing potholes and mending bus shelters turns out to be greater than the benefits that HS2 would have given?