The Interesting and Unusual Small Arms of Kurdistan and Ukraine w/ Neil Vermillion

Рет қаралды 233,002

Күн бұрын

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I'm excited today to speak with Neal Vermillion, a US Army veteran (2002-2006) who served contracts in Kurdistan (2016) and Ukraine (2022) for the nonprofit PMC Sons of Liberty International. In Kurdistan he was a volunteer training and fighting with a group of Kurds around Erbil and Mosul. In Ukraine, he trained Ukrainian snipers and other troops. Today we are specifically talking about the different small arms that were (and are) being used in Kurdistan and Ukraine. From Turkish starter pistols to handmade anti material rifles, the fight against ISIS in Kurdistan saw it all. Ukraine today is seeing a similarly wide variety of small arms, although generally much more effective...unless you are a guy like Neil who gets issued an M14!
00:47 - Neil's basic background
02:31 - Guns of the Peshmerga
23:07 - Guns of Ukraine
Follow Neil on Instagram at / thecombataccountant .
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Пікірлер: 758

@bec6143 Жыл бұрын

Neil seems like a fascinating individual. He’s been there, done that many times. And he seems to care deeply about the individuals he’s tried to keep alive. What an example of humanity.

@GianmarioScotti Жыл бұрын

Yes, my feelings exactly.

@ivanmonahhov2314 11 ай бұрын

Yes, a government aligned organization in Ukraine - so its not SBU , army or national guard. What could it be ? Do those people like to tatoo crosses or skulls or lithning bolts ?

@onlything.6276 11 ай бұрын

@ivanmonahhov2314 Name is Ivan, rambles about people whose cities are erased by russian artillery. Ivan is doing all of this because those people have some edgy tattoos, they got those same tattoos because they became radicalized by years of russian chauvinism

@infogang3603 11 ай бұрын

@@ivanmonahhov2314 Wild how you guys never seem to care about the thousands of neo-nazis fighting for Putin, I wonder why 🤔

@Aliyah_666 10 ай бұрын

@@ivanmonahhov2314Obvious ignorant troll is obviously ignorant. What a grand and intoxicating time to be alive.

@godzilla1463 Жыл бұрын

We need more of Neil. Seems like a really cool dude.

@ForgottenWeapons Жыл бұрын

Got more with him next week. :)

@markfergerson2145 11 ай бұрын

@@ForgottenWeaponsPlease ask him to bring those pictures he mentioned, and more if possible. I particularly appreciated him putting a human face on the people he trained and fought beside. (That doesn’t mean he should show us their faces)

@maxkennedy8075 Жыл бұрын

My favourite kludge from Ukraine was the DSHMs and DSHKs taken from long decommissioned T-55s being converted into heavy squad support weapons with a stock, pistol grip and bipod

@SergMuller Жыл бұрын

And often optics.

@ForgottenWeapons Жыл бұрын

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nMppa7uUt9OUkoE.html

@FecalLord Жыл бұрын

DShKM, DShKMT

@aregularperson7573 Жыл бұрын

The Liberian guy that runs the sight all the way forwards to give it more power just made me chuckle because if you watch the footage from the Liberian civil war it’s was exactly like you described

@DudokX Жыл бұрын

That sounds like something out of Warhammer 40K except there it would actually work.

@gesamtszenario Жыл бұрын

I seem to remember that something like this happened in one of the countless colonial wars the British fought in Africa. Their Enemy used the sights on conquered Martini-Henrys as power settings. I wanna say it was the Zulu, but I'm not quite sure, because they would have been capable warriors and had quite some experience with firearms are that point. Anyone with better memory wanna chime in?

@Sol-Orion Жыл бұрын

@@DudokX If an Ork is doing it, it would definitely work lol.

@Rrgr5 Жыл бұрын

@gesamtszenario definitely not Zulu, they were outstanding marksman, don't know exactly how, but they knew very well how to dial the sights.

@Rrgr5 Жыл бұрын

In my country, most of the paramilitaries and the cartels don't really knows how to zero a gun and use a sight, when they want to "deal" with someone they go point blank, when clashes arises with government forces is pretty much one handed, the government guys always get the upper hand, but thing is, they don't know how to use effectively to maintain position and stuff, but... They can definitely supress to retreat and that's enough for them.

@arisukak Жыл бұрын

The M14s you talk about with the plug instead of the selector switch is normal. IIRC it was up to the unit commander to decide if they should have full auto M14s or not, and most did not. So pretty much all M14s are that way. All the parts are there, just with a plug instead of the selector switch.

@Plumber913 Жыл бұрын

The "PKC" that Neil talks about is most likely a "tripod-mounted" version, it's called a PKS. The confusion may be because of cyrillic "s" looking the same as lating "c"

@ForgottenWeapons Жыл бұрын

My guess was a vehicular PKT, but you could be right.

@KalashniKEV762 Жыл бұрын

They're all called PKC or BKC in Iraq.

@neillathotep7386 Жыл бұрын

"PKC" is used as a general term for "light machine gun" in Iraq. PK / PKM, Yugo M84, Chinese Type 67 / 80, even M240 are referred to as "PKC". If you want to be more specific, you would say "Russian / Chinese / American etc. PKC".

@RahellOmer Жыл бұрын

if you're referring to kurdistand/Iraq, then I think it is PKM or PKC cuz we refer to them in kurdish or arabic as BKC

@cameronnightman8112 Жыл бұрын

Yes, this is a common mistake. The "C" is an S in Cyrillic. ПКС in Cyrillic = PKS in English

@ArguingOnlineTouchGrass 11 ай бұрын

Awesome interview, looking forward for what’s to come. Thought I’d leave a thanks, seeing as I’ve been watching you for a few years as I’ve grown from an adolescent into a young man, kindling a burning interest in all things mechanical. I’ve set myself up with a workshop with a lathe, welder & the lot so I can tinker around building mechanisms and such (no firearms unfortunately as I live in Australia and quite enjoy life as a free man). Warm thanks for all the content you’ve put out on behalf of me and the many others who likely share my experiences.

@Statueshop297 8 ай бұрын

U should still be able to shoot in Australia in gun clubs etc. don’t know the laws that well but most countries with gun laws have clubs that you can join

@dampSocks426 Жыл бұрын

U.S gave Estonia a lot of M14's a long time ago, like 40k of them. We gave some, if not most of them them to Ukraine. Other countires did the same I think

@tomhenry897 Жыл бұрын

Clinton didn’t want to give M16s

@Havok0159 Жыл бұрын

Yup, the M14s are Estonian donations. The Armourer's Bench, another channel here on KZfaq will look at the various guns we see out of Ukraine and figures out their provenance, at least when possible.

@RyTrapp0 11 ай бұрын

At least the US has finally accepted that the M14 is trash that they need to unload. It took them long enough, but they finally gave up on the damn thing lol.

@crysiswar5 11 ай бұрын

After decades the m14 fulfilling its purpose of killing Russians😂

@Redbird1504 11 ай бұрын

@@RyTrapp0One man's trash is another man's treasure.. 2nd guy is dumb tho

@claudelamoreux8543 Жыл бұрын

I worked with the Iraqi army in 20011-2013. He's spot on about the them. In general, the soldiers are there only for the paycheck. They then pay their officers a "kickback" so that they don't have to show up for duty. When they do show up for duty, they don't train they man checkpoints.

@singami465 Жыл бұрын

Seems to be a pattern where America gets involved in a civil war somewhere and turns out the faction they support doesn't actually want to live there, they'd rather run to America.

@hailtothe_rooster1572 Жыл бұрын

I started training them in 2008. We tried getting them to man gates and do ECP’s. They’d sleep, or you know send gps coordinates of gates and towers, or they’d complain to be out of fuel when being escorted and request to go get jp8 or not show up for duty…. Yeah sure let’s get blown tf up in the fuel depot. I absolutely hated dealing with them.

@christopherwang4392 Жыл бұрын

After the near-collapse of the Iraqi Army in the face Islamic State's rampage in 2013 thru 2014, has the Iraqi Army somewhat improved after 2016 thru 2017?

@christopherwang4392 Жыл бұрын

@@hailtothe_rooster1572 Did you ever worked with any of the (very) few professional Iraqi units such as the SOF Golden Division? After the Islamic State's rampage in 2013 thru 2014, it seemed the Iraqi Army had somewhat improved enough to take back their country from ISIS in 2016 thru 2017.

@christopherwang4392 Жыл бұрын

@@StudSupreme That's what happens when corruption and incompetence has become enabled and ingrained over generations.

@alexwest2573 Жыл бұрын

The history buff in me would be screaming: MP 40! MP-40! While the firearms enthusiast is screaming: MP-5! MP-5!

@marvindebot3264 11 ай бұрын

Why not both?

@PetrosArgy 11 ай бұрын

This is right up there with Lindybeige's interviews with the returning UK soldier. Awesome video! Thank you!

@aicragej 11 ай бұрын

Neil: "If you had a G3... you're not quite there but you're not the AK guy." Brandon: 👁👄👁

@stanislavczebinski994 Жыл бұрын

I think those mystery smoothbore Turkish pistols are actually converted blank-fire pistols. They are sold in their original form here in Germany. This company makes Beretta and Glock clones. Usually today, blank-fire guns are made of zinc metal cast with a steel insert in the barrel so they can't be converted. Plus, the pressure of a live 9mm would blow the thing in your face. Some of these Turkish guns (IIRC the "Glocks") are made of steel and can therefore be converted - but I wouldn't shoot them neither.

@mazanakaUA Жыл бұрын

An uncommonly informative, thought provoking and well presented interview. Thanks both to the host and the guest.

@kamilszadkowski8864 Жыл бұрын

That was a really cool interview. It's a joy to listen to this guy. Definitely bring him back if possible!

@volodymyrsukhyna5932 Жыл бұрын

M-14s were donated to Ukraine by Estonia.

@GerinoMorn 11 ай бұрын

I guess they fit the aesthetic when you think about it xD

@sceligator Жыл бұрын

Ian's face when he said "starter pistols" needs to become a t-shirt 😂

@davidkanengieter 11 ай бұрын

It was epic.

@erikm12 11 ай бұрын

Neil's ability to do all these hair-raising things and talk about them as if it all happened on a trip to the grocery store he took last week is incredible. Definitely the kind of person I'd want training me if it came to it.

@Paulbartlett556 11 ай бұрын

Many years ago i was treating a old man who in his previous life was a merk in Africa and his weapon of choice was a MP 40 that he said they were sourced from a WW2 German cargo ship abandoned in an East African port in about 1960's It had a hold full of MP 40's in suprisingly good condition The gift that keeps on giving?

@marvindebot3264 11 ай бұрын

Yes, there were plentiful supplies of MP-40s in Africa in the 80s and 90s, even some STG-44s that were probably on the same ship if that story is correct (not one I've heard but believable).

@juhanivalimaki5418 Жыл бұрын

At some point Spring 2022 I counted 17 different small arms cartridge sizes for Ukrainian armed forces. Below and excluding 20mm. Today might be 1-3 more even. Even 17 was a logistical nightmare.

@jamesberry3230 Жыл бұрын

disappointed thought I would be hearing a discussion with visual examples of the guns, not a laugh fest about training foreign troops

@TheOriginalFaxon Жыл бұрын

Wanna list everything off? We've got (in descending order) 14.5x114mm Soviet/Russian, 12.7x108mm Soviet/Russian, 12.7x99mm NATO (.50 BMG), 9x39mm Russian, 9x21mm Russian, 9x19 Para, 9x18mm Makarov, 7.62x54mmR, 7.62x51mm NATO, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x25mm, 5.56x45mm NATO, 5.45x39mm, and that's only 13 by my count. I assume .45ACP is also in use, but haven't actually seen it personally. It's presumable that if 9x18 Makarov is in use, someone's also using .380 ACP. Is there any I added that they're not actually using, and what did I miss?

@jonathanbennett4284 Жыл бұрын

@@TheOriginalFaxonat least some 7.92x33 for old MP44 Sturmgewehrs. PPU still makes it in Serbia.

@markzenhorst5259 Жыл бұрын

@@TheOriginalFaxon i have seen stg44 in roulation so thats 8mm kurtz (at least seen some pictures, they had quite a few in stoch). i think there may be k98k aswel, if so thats 8mm mauser. if bren or enfields are used 303 british might be on there. possibly 7.35 (luger)? .45 almost certainly is used as he said those sf guys had all kinds of modern smg/pdw The dutch government fonated a batch of sniper rifles just before the invasion. Those are Acuracy internationals in .338 lapua magnum.

@davidgoodnow269 Жыл бұрын

@@TheOriginalFaxon Don't forget that just like most European military rifles that might turn up are rifled for M193 and don't stabilize M855, most older AK-74 are rifled for 53-grain flat-based spitzer and won't stabilize 60-grain armor-piercing. Then there's Afghanistan-era 9×39 using a Nyclad HydraShok with tungsten center-post, works great at its job but it is not Geneva Convention-compliant so you can be hanged if you're caught with it.

@dorhocyn3 Жыл бұрын

I almost went online to try and buy a starter pistol after that. Very interesting to listen to, thank goodness for the freedom we have in the United States, and the people that helped fight for it, even when it’s not exactly equal, we are still very blessed.

@SoloHime Жыл бұрын

Turks when Kurdistan mentioned: 😡🤬

@wheneggsdrop1701 Жыл бұрын

Something something PKK something something Syria.

@SoloHime Жыл бұрын

Bi yorum yapalım dedik ne kadar kürt varsa beğenmiş.

@jhin28 Жыл бұрын

umarım ilerde durum değişir. siyasilerin halkı uyutma çabaları sonucunda hem kürtlerle aramız bozuk hem de sürekli askerlerimiz ölüyor.

@johnrimhong4287 Жыл бұрын

They can cay about it all they like

@demonicsquid7217 11 ай бұрын

Cyprus, Armenia, Greece... Constantinople... 😂

@5starman Жыл бұрын

The guy in the Thumbnail looks like Kurdish Othais.

@papaswanson Жыл бұрын

Kuthaish

@ArcturusOTE Жыл бұрын

Into the Othais-Verse Make it happen!

@Chilly_Billy Жыл бұрын

😂😂😂

@Astroman1990 Жыл бұрын

I concur

@SafetyProMalta Жыл бұрын

Plus a young Othias from Cuba..😂

@THEGIPPER34 11 ай бұрын

Awesome interview and one of my favorite guests ive seen describing these types of encounters! Good luck and looking forward to more videos!

@mpersad Жыл бұрын

What a terrifically informative interview, and what a great guest. Really looking forward to this series of videos. Thank you for your great work, as always!

@jaylee5692 Жыл бұрын

I helped train Iraqi police in '08 and all the stuff he describes is spot on. Good ones who know what to do and the ones that are more dangerous to there own side if they have a firearm.

@blakekenley1000 11 ай бұрын

ANA was the same, we happened to really like our border patrol platoon. Those dudes would fight, and at least had a modicum of safety.

@christopherwang4392 11 ай бұрын

@@blakekenley1000 There was also the ANA Commando Corps who fought valiantly against the 2021 Taliban offensive but were abandoned and betrayed by their corrupt and incompetent government in Kabul. The remaining survivors have either fled to the West or joined the National Resistance Front hiding out in northern and northeastern Afghanistan.

@orclover2353 11 ай бұрын

Just imagine what it would be like to invade America and then try to train its population to follow orders and fight for you. A lot of this problem, similar problem in Afghanistan is you have untrained civilians looking for opportunity in a collapsing economy. We've seen from conscription in the past that conscripts, even volunteers during a conflict are notoriously bad soldiers, which is why armies across the planet are trying to work with professionals only even if armies are 10x smaller.

@Org80 11 ай бұрын

@christopherwang4392 do you know what happened to those guys? For a while I was seeing footage of them fending off attacks from the Talib as they tried to enter the panshir valley and were doing quite well. The Talibs couldn't get a foothold in the valley. But I haven't seen or heard of any thing for a whole while now

@frenchonion4595 11 ай бұрын

Isn't it because most of them were smoking opium? Think one of those old training video u.s soldier said all they wanted to do is smoke opium

@ejfheoshrjde Жыл бұрын

Wow, great interview! Thanks to the both of you for doing this.

@manythingslefttobuild 11 ай бұрын

Great interview Ian and Neil, looking forward the rest of your talk.

@zacharymetzger4244 11 ай бұрын

Fantastic interview! Thank you Ian, for having such a structured yet relaxed approach. And thank you Neil, for being willing to share so many of your experiences!

@Shit_Shooter Жыл бұрын

Dear Ian's Guest: When you said "I stand by that statement." regarding 545, I basically heard "I stand BECAUSE of that statement" All my hats off to you man.

@russwoodward8251 11 ай бұрын

Thanks Ian! One of the better videos online today. Really great. And thank you Niel!

@brianreddeman951 Жыл бұрын

Can we have him back...A lot more? That was 45 minutes of awesome.

@JordanFlayer Жыл бұрын

Stay tuned next week!

@michaelmcatee221 11 ай бұрын

Maxims are extremely reliable. The only reason they are not typically used is because you almost never need to continuously fire a machine gun for minutes at a time. Also a gun 1/5 the weight can produce 1/2 the firepower.

@DSlyde 11 ай бұрын

Yeah this was an excellent video, as others have said. Knowledgeable, personable, AND interesting experiences is a rare combo. 100% would watch more

@jimmason7231 Жыл бұрын

Can't wait to hear more from this gentleman, really enjoyable episode!

@geronimo6615 Жыл бұрын

Dude! I could listen to y’all talk on this and related subjects for hours on end. Very intriguing.

@MicMcCabe Жыл бұрын

This was really interesting. Looking forward to more interviews with him

@weaselduke Жыл бұрын

Best guest ever! He could totally have his own channel, right? Did I miss it?

@jona.scholt4362 Жыл бұрын

Interesting to hear he was in the incident involving Charles Keating IV. There is an amazing video on KZfaq about his life; it's only 20-25 minutes long but I highly recommend anyone who reads this to watch it. I won't go into any detail, since you should watch the video, but he seemed like an extraordinary guy, gone way way too soon.

@bohuslavhumplik6744 11 ай бұрын

Great interview with Neil! Thank You

@GoiyaTahir Жыл бұрын

Awesome video! It will be great to read Neil's memoirs about that wars once.

@PJ-he5zk Жыл бұрын

Thanks for this! Great storytelling!

@michaellacy847 11 ай бұрын

This was an awesome episode of Forgotten Weapons, Thank you for the effort and content!

@mauer594 11 ай бұрын

Looking forwards to the next interview with him, this was fascinating.

@iamcondescending Жыл бұрын

To be fair: I feel like even the FBI HRT would be running missions if the continental US was invaded. I feel like that's more an "all hands on deck" situation, than a jurisdiction thing.

@gesamtszenario Жыл бұрын

By international law, that's actually easy to do. You need to announce to the enemy that a specific uniform is that of a combatant, which means everyone you send into battle in that uniform (and who carries their weapons openly) has regular combatant status. I'm not sure who keeps track of that, potentially the ICRC. I would need to read up on it again.

@fridrekr7510 Жыл бұрын

I think he’s referring to the Ukrainian SBU Alpha, who also used a lot of Western equipment before 2022. The highest tier Soviet special forces were also organised under the KGB, and is carried over to the Russian FSB teams that have been in Ukraine since 2014. It’s just a Soviet tradition to have the best units under the security service, and they’ve been used in wartime in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Syria, Ukraine etc. Russia and Ukraine only recently formed their SSO which puts high tier special forces in the armed forces. Even lower level police tactical units (Ukrainian KORD and Russian SOBR) have been used extensively in the war, and have a good reputation. The Russian FSB and SOBR also did a lot of COIN operations in the Caucasus, and FSB was also in Syria. So imagine that FBI HRT and local SWAT also regularly trained with machine guns and rocket launchers and had been fighting in Afghanistan the last 20 years.

@SergMuller Жыл бұрын

@@fridrekr7510 National guard is also considered a part of Internal/Police force by law, but currently almost undistinguishable from military having similar structure, equipment, common chain of command etc. So he might be referring to a National guard, Border guard, Police or any other unit that's issued firearms. And of course Ukrainian FBI-likes (not SBU, because that's ~ US NSA). The practice of which unit gets what equipment is typically based on existing training or logistics - AK-trained guys would most likely get AKs, newly formed units will get whatever can be supplied with uniform ammo.

@fridrekr7510 11 ай бұрын

@@SergMuller I’m a bit confused about the role of the NGU. Rosgvardia mostly consists of light motorised units and special police anti terror units etc. However, the NGU has tanks and artillery and seems very similar to the ZSU. Most of ARs I’ve seen used by Ukrainians have been quite barebones, even in “special” units they were similar to what was used by standard NATO infantry 10 years ago. So when he mentioned all of them using suppressors (and MP5s and MP7s), I figured it had to be a high tier unit. What are these Ukrainian FBI equivalent units you refer to?

@SergMuller 11 ай бұрын

@@fridrekr7510 FBI originally started as a financial control institution. Ukrainian anti-corruption bureaus also have their own SWAT units. NGU has originally started like any other national guard unit, but quickly evolved because the war has been going on since 2014 and accumulated experience told the command that sooner or later those units will engages in army combat. And some units have salvaged their heavy armour on the battlefield. Probably some time after the war it will get back to more or less policing duties. I've seen multiple units equipped with suppressors. More than expected. Some get the cans on a civil market. But never seen MP7s

@Reeeeeves Жыл бұрын

Great video! Looking forward to hear more from Neil. :)

@Lavey1917 11 ай бұрын

This was a most fascinating video, wouild love to see more of Neil or any channel with content like his

@sirave6017 11 ай бұрын

Wow, thank you for doing what you do @Neil. What sobering information. I was strapped to my seat for this video.

@jsradler Жыл бұрын

Great episode! What a great channel, this guy is great.

@alexgehring1623 Жыл бұрын

Great episode. Thanks for sharing

@lahma69 11 ай бұрын

Wow! I enjoyed this video SO much! So awesome getting to hear from such a cool guy with such a broad range of experiences. Thank you for your service and for sharing just a small part of your story with us. I look forward to hearing more in future videos!

@DSS-jj2cw Жыл бұрын

Fascinating video! Love hearing his stories of weapons and his experiences. He is lucky to made it out alive!

@davidkanengieter 11 ай бұрын

That was great! Can't wait for more from him.

@paulcaliendo9402 11 ай бұрын

Awesome video and thank you Neil for your services

@wfrentzel7503 11 ай бұрын

Terrific!! Really enjoyed this!

@bulukacarlos4751 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video! I hope there will be more details in the future. A comment from someone who is not an English speaker: Excellent pronunciation and vocabulary by Neil (in Ian's case that is usual). Greetings from Argentine Patagonia.

@louisleedham3422 11 ай бұрын

Some real raw moments in that video. So much respect for you. I hope you're finding your way post service man. ❤

@TraTranc Жыл бұрын

The Turkish starter pistols thing is well known. They are _formally_ starter pistols, but what they really are is real guns with a starter pistol barrel. They are _specifically_ made to be easily converted to fire real ammunition, and they are causing issues in terms of public safety here in Europe.

@chadpunte1731 Жыл бұрын

😂

@cyan_oxy6734 Жыл бұрын

@@StudSupremeYes, because they have sensible gun laws and a totally different gun culture. It's about sporting and hunting. Also the EU mentality towards what constitutes a "safety issue" is *very different* to that of an American. I don't think mass shootings just being part of life could hapoen here.

@lundysden6781 Жыл бұрын

@@cyan_oxy6734 No, you just get suicide bombers walk over from where ever and self destruct in a double decker bus. Or gas attacks in subways. That's your normal.

@jordanandrew2786 Жыл бұрын

@@lundysden6781exactly. Europeans act all high and mighty despite permitting Muslims to run amok, killing their sons, and raping their daughters.

@Infernal969 Жыл бұрын

@@StudSupreme 🏅Here's your medal for winning today's mental gymnastics championships.

@johnanderson591 11 ай бұрын

Great interview....God bless you both... Greetings from Philly.

@kamiskub7409 Жыл бұрын

It was really cool to listen to and I'm looking forward for more.

@chemistryofquestionablequa6252 Жыл бұрын

The Iraqi version of running the sight up all the way is pushing the forward assist on an AR pattern rifle because it's the "sniper button".

@JohnHughesChampigny Жыл бұрын

Well, according to Eugene that makes about as much sense as what it's "supposed" to be for.

@IcyScythe 11 ай бұрын

What a fascinating interview, please do more

@thunderring8056 Жыл бұрын

Really enjoyed this video!

@leneanderthalien Жыл бұрын

The iconic weapon in Ukraine is the Malyuk use from the special forces, existing in 5.45mm soviet, 5,56mm Nato and 7.62 soviet, based on the AK74.The first was a bit weird kit, but the last models are realy good optimised

@hodussshodus3078 11 ай бұрын

Can't wait for Ian to put hands on one of those :)