The Making of the Modern Middle East: Lawrence of Arabia and King Faisal I

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10 жыл бұрын

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How much blame for the current troubles in the Middle East lies with the decisions made by the West in 1919 -- when the Ottoman Empire was carved up arbitrarily into the modern states we know today? Is it true that Arab society has tended to define itself less by what it aspires to become than what it is opposed to: colonialism, Zionism, and Western imperialism? That era seems to be coming to an end with the recent Arab Spring movements. As ethnic and religious loyalties intensify, will new lines be drawn? And will they lead to greater harmony in the region or exacerbated conflict?
These are some of the questions we will be asking in this Intelligence Squared event, which focuses on two of the central players behind the formation of the modern Middle East, Lawrence of Arabia and King Faisal I. Both are subjects of brilliant new biographies. The books' authors, Scott Anderson and Ali Allawi, will be discussing the intertwining lives of these extraordinary men, and the war, treason, and secret colonial plots that are part of their story.
T. E. Lawrence is one of Britain's most romantic historical figures. In 1914 he was an archaeologist excavating ruins in the sands of Syria. By 1917 he was battling both the Turks and his own government to bring about the vision he had for the Arab people. A new biography of him, Lawrence in Arabia: War, Deceit, Imperial Folly and the Making of the Modern Middle East, by the American author Scott Anderson, has sold over 150,000 copies in the US and won the New York Times Notable Book award.
Faisal was a battle-hardened military leader who with the help of Lawrence organised the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire. He went on to become king of both Iraq and the first independent state of Syria. Faisal I of Iraq is the latest book by Ali Allawi, Iraq's first post-war civilian Minister of Defence who has been acclaimed for his knowledge and insight into Islamic society.
This discussion, chaired by Edward Lucas, senior editor at The Economist, took a broad look at Arab society past and present through the prism of two of the region's most extraordinary historical personages.

Пікірлер: 74

@Ben55583 3 жыл бұрын

I only discovered this programme now, almost 7 years after it was broadcast. Both Ali Alawi's book "Faisal I of Iraq" and Scott Anderson's book "Lawrence in Arabia" stand next to each other on my bookshelves. I have read chapters from both books. But after listening to this very interesting discussion I am sure I will now read both books in full. As someone who has lived and worked in the Arab world (the Levant) and has an affinity for the people of the Arab world I hope that the optimism by both professor Alawi and Scott Anderson with regards to a more stable and just future for the people of the Arab world will be realised.

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

Stability and justice are not in the arab vocabulary. Well, they are in the vocabulary of words - to the exclusion of much else - they're just not in the vocabulary of action.

@ajarnwordsmith628 10 ай бұрын

Yes, "a more stable and just future for the people[s] of the Arab world" to include, if you please, Arab Jews (800,000) who were expelled from Arab lands in 1948, most of whom were rescued by the modern State of Israel.

@VanlifewithAlan 9 жыл бұрын

Brilliant discussion - I meant to listen to this in four or five stages whilst doing household chores - it was so good that I had to listen in one go!

@phmwu7368 Жыл бұрын

Astronomical Eclips in Warfare: July 05, 1917 Thomas Edward Lawrence aka "Lawrence of Arabia" used his knowledge of astronomical phenomena to carry out a daring night raid under the darkness of a total eclipse of the Moon. While the Ottoman defenders of the Red Sea port Aqaba were preoccupied by the Lunar eclipse, T.E. Lawrence and his troop of fifty Bedouin successfully pressed home their stealthy attack on the inner city of Aqaba - Jordan. No wonder why he became such an icon of leadership.

@jamdoodles 10 жыл бұрын

This was really interesting.

@sophieha6478 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!!!

@Dino-qw8tm 9 жыл бұрын

Amazing.

@dennisesplin3285 3 жыл бұрын

History is bunk said Henry Ford. Arguably the cast is constantly changing but the play stays the same.

@scotva 8 жыл бұрын

Very interesting, It might have helped if it discussed the role of the British with Saudi family, there rise to power in Arabia and their clash with the Hussein Clan. The British were playing everyone off against each other and making promises to all that could not be kept. The use of 'diplomatic' jargon in all these 'agreements' opens the door to differing understandings of what was 'agreed'.

@deeznutz3958 Жыл бұрын

That’s because nations can’t survive habitual sell outs or treason. And it’s the way empires have been doing business since the beginning of empires.

@david2284180 3 жыл бұрын

It's taking me 59 hours to get through this 1:28:26 video. (my response to the panel criticizing TEL's literary ability)

@michaelsweeney8229 4 жыл бұрын

I always assumed Lawrence claimed in his autobiography that he knew all about Sykes-Picot, but actually wasn't aware of it at the time.

@bigjim10235 4 жыл бұрын

I think he knew.

@Delta4ms 10 жыл бұрын

Good stuff.

@malachi5813 3 жыл бұрын

how come you guys dont mention gulbenkyan?

@sharonholdren7588 4 ай бұрын

Why no captions or transcript?

@Rational375 4 жыл бұрын

A wonderful and informative session indeed. What is even more interesting as well as fascinating... that both Faisal and Lawrence were in their early 30's when they were involved in the events that will change the future of the Middle East. What was not discussed is the fact that the man who hobnobbed with kings, advised Winston Churchill, generals at the age of 30 enlisted as a lowly airman and was posted on the Afghan border in present day Pakistan. When in 1919 he was involved in a airplane crash in Rome, Victor Emmanuel, lll visited him in the hospital. Supposedly, he was shy and perhaps deeply troubled that he needed to escape the 'limelight' and get away from England. The later assertion is also controversial. While on the Afghan border, Amir Amanullah Khan was overthrown only a few month before he was abruptly recalled back to England. Did he have something to do with removal of the anti-British Amir in Afghanistan is not clear.

@mickwillson3239 4 жыл бұрын

Wow that's very interesting, that needs further investigation, the perennial narrative has always been that Lawrence was pro indigenous folk!.thankyou for that view mate i would like to find out more on his trip there👌

@serpentines6356 11 ай бұрын

Yes. Me too. Would be interesting to learn more about this. Glad things like this are still on YT.

@melvynlipitch9698 8 жыл бұрын

fascinating insight ,but the otherwise brilliant Ali Allawi stated that Faisal never contemplated Jewish immigration to Palestine a "political" project, I assume he thinks they were simply to be absorbed within Arab land. This is contradictory to the Faisal/Weizman agreement which clearly denotes an Arab state alongside Palestine and furthermore this agreement incorporated the Balfour Declaration which is confirmed within the agreement. The codicil which Allawi has read in its original Arabic form is pretty much the same as the "reservations" in the English text so I cannot understand Ali Allawi's conclusions on this specific point.

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

Allawi is a wishful thinker who wants to wish away a real, functioning and prosperous state (Israel) by dreaming of an impossible fantasy state (United Arab Republic), Nasser's brainchild before he "lost the plot in the mid-60s".

@peggygeren4169 2 жыл бұрын

@@secallen Faisal did not sign the agreement with the British and Zionists until he had written his own addendum to the document, that his support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine was contingent on the Anglo-French fulfillment of all their agreements with the Arab Revolt. That became null and void in light of the subsequent total betrayal of the Arabs by the British.

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

@@peggygeren4169 Faisal did not own the world. He and other Arab despots ended up in control of infinitely more territory than they had before predominantly ALLIED troops expelled the Ottomans. More Arabs fought on the Ottoman side. If the huge swathe of territory that came into arab hands after the war was not enough for Faisal, then that is between him and his psychiatrist. And of course the Arabs have managed that land wonderfully in the intervening years.

@peggygeren4169 2 жыл бұрын

@@secallen The agreements made by the Arabs with their British Allies were done on behalf of the signers of the Damascus Protocol, Faisal was one of them; some of the others were hanged by the Turks. The kind of govt Faisal envisioned can be judged by the Constitution of the short-lived Kingdom of Syria (that can be found in the appendices of " The Arab Awakening", should you decide to take a break from your racist trolling), and he is judged as having been one of Iraq's three best leaders, along with Bakr and Qassim. He was dealt a very weak hand - as all Arab leaders have been, and still are - but he played it fairly well, given that his choices were to be either a target, or a puppet, or an exile.

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

@@peggygeren4169 You were doing well but then you lost your temper. Since you are not interested in discussion I will bid you farewell.

@alanshurtz345 2 жыл бұрын

What about Gertrude Bell?

@rhodaseptilici3816 3 жыл бұрын

I much appreciate mr allawi's knowledge of the middle east however i need to point out a grave error in his presentation romania was never part of the ottoman empire unlike bulgaria and sergia that were romania was never occupied or under ottoman rule it paid tribute to keep its independence this is a serious error thank you

@AllenbysEyes 8 жыл бұрын

I respect Allawi and enjoyed his book a great deal, but I wonder how Feisal would have overcome the perception of being a tool of the British. The other Hashemites never really overcame that stigma; both his brother Abdullah in Jordan and grandson Ghazi in Iraq were assassinated. Not saying it's a fair characterization of Feisal, and Allawi eloquently argues otherwise, but especially in the post-Nasser era it was very widespread.

@kingharryannis 4 жыл бұрын

Saint John Philby is a very interesting chap. Was the boss of Lawrence in Palestine. Hidden from history. Why? Got Rockefeller ,Standard Oil into Wahhabiland instead of BP. Read 'ARABIA' and 'the Heart of Arabia;a record of travel and exploration' by Harry St. John Bridger Philby ,1885-1960. Also known as Sheikh Abdullah. He went native. Became a muslim. Bought a child sex slave from a slave market , died in Lebanon. His last words were,'I'm Bored'. Hidden from history. Was not a zionist.

@gusibrahim6961 3 жыл бұрын

It's quite ironic that photography as simple as it was then but very selective! It only shows the poorest part of Iraq, no photographer shot the lavish part of Baghdad the one I've seen at least!!!

@albertarthurparsnips5141 10 жыл бұрын

Granted, Western muscle had a great deal to do with shoring up the Hashemite and Saudi regimes, but, not at all sans a great deal of local enthusiasm, and, more to the point, precedent. Crimea's Khanate, Ottoman Turkey, Bokhara's Emirate,..Yemen's hereditary monarchies,..republics scarce and scanty,. It's insulting, surely, to Middle Easterners to declare their history to've been nought but the dupe of the Occident.

@youaremylifepictures4680 6 жыл бұрын

He was actually the second child. Don't know why Anderson said he was the third.

@theroadupward 9 жыл бұрын

Good stuff. Interesting how the British "Great Man" version of history comes out in the questioning. Great Man being on the lines of a military conqueror? Time we evolved our views on warrior chieftain hero (UK)

@jordanfan5896 2 жыл бұрын

0 seconds ago Jordan Fan, Prophet of Environment, 范楚漳，環境先知：What puzzle me most about T.E.Lawrence are: (1) Why he refused to become the barber 💈 of the Arabs - a “barberless people?” (2) Why T. E. Lawrence refused to be a TEAM player at the end! (3) Also, why he as a transportation expert who could drive/ride a Hejaz camel 🐪 or blew up Hejaz railroads but don’t know how to drive/ride his Harley Davidson motorcycle 🏍? (4) Why his army superior Captain Gibbons, who Lawrence had being “monkeying around” with, had such short arms?

@Cheifez21 4 жыл бұрын

Not true he was advising fissal

@mohammedroshankhan7912 3 жыл бұрын

Either Mr.Allawi is extremely devious or naive to believe that Lawrence has the best interest of Arabs at heart.

@rup54 2 жыл бұрын

Does anyone? Least of all the Arabs themselves.

@peggygeren4169 2 жыл бұрын

@@rup54 Professor Allawi is an Arab, right?

@William-Marshall Жыл бұрын

Napoleon said history is lies agreed on.

@lesliebeben4932 8 жыл бұрын

Do you believe that Lawrence was responsible for bringing the conceptual basis of machines to the Arabs? Certainly telephones and television were out of the question at the time. Improvised explosives capable of taking out a Turkish troop train are another story altogether. Once this Englishman explained how this tactic could be used has it been utilized ever since to exponential effect?

@AllenbysEyes 8 жыл бұрын

+Leslie Beben No, I think you can credit the Turks for that. The Arabs already had telephones at the time. Lawrence recounts having telephone conversations with Sherif Hussein shortly after his arrival in the Hejaz. As for military tactics you may have a fairer point.

@williammcbride4560 7 жыл бұрын

"Modern"

@jhangfk 10 жыл бұрын

When Lawrence was arrested by the Turks, he was sexually abused by the Turk. He enjoyed the sexual contacts with Turks. I read in one the book but I can not verified that it is true or just accusations.

@VanlifewithAlan 9 жыл бұрын

Arshad Farooqui I have also read that he may have invented this story or that it is exaggerated.

@yaakovmacales2826 7 жыл бұрын

Ali Allawi is wrong about what Iraqi King Feisal could have accomplished had he lived another 20 years. Allawi views him as a potential leader of a moderate form of Arab nationalism that could have prevented the radical Nasserite and Ba'ath pan-Arabism which morphed into tyrannical military dictatorships when then collapsed into radical political Islamism. This Feisalian moderate Arab nationalism would have been ousted the same way it was under his successors. First of all, the Arab defeat in the 1948 war which resulted in the creation of Israel lead to the discrediting of the existing Arab leadership which was accused of selling out the Arab cause in the war due their supposedly being under the thumb of the old European colonialist powers. Feisal would have simply been viewed as a British puppet and he would have been chucked out. Secondly, Feisal would have had to face the centrifugal forces that ultimately destroyed Iraq and Syria and he would not have been in any position to do anything different. The Arab world's choice is either iron-fisted dictatorship or anarchy. The civil society that would have been needed to form this Feisalian regime did not exist in Iraq nor anywhere else in the Arab world , as Allawi himself admits in this film. Finally, although Allawi claims that Feisel reached out to the various minorities, claiming they could be part of this moderate pan-Arab "umma", hatred of the various minorities that exploded out after decolonization and which has lead to the Christian and Jewish populations fleeing the various Arab countries would have happened anyway.

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

That iron-fisted dictatorship is apparently quite workable in smaller, tribe-based units, e.g. the UAE. Allawi himself names the solution to Arab politics: (tribe-based) fragmentation - the natural state of Arab society throughout history.

@peggygeren4169 2 жыл бұрын

Very "orientalist" of you both.

@zthetha 8 жыл бұрын

"I'm not sure these three places are on the map... at least Damascus is...?"chirps the master of ceremonies or whatever he conceives himself to be. And this is a super intelligence outfit... intelligence squared? "Akaba is not on this map!" the smart arse continues. "Oh yes it is!" sing out the audience like kids at a pantomime. Intelligence squared...? Intelligence halved more like.

@Iammram 5 жыл бұрын

1:13:40 Mangina alert.

@dasglasperlenspiel10 6 жыл бұрын

Regarding the first author: although I am very sympathetic to anyone ho devotes the time and effort to writing such a detailed history, if the author knows hat he is so unable to speak coherently in public, he should prepare a talk that, um, so, doesn't require him to, to, to-to-to, --um, improvise his, his, his, talk.

@ctb2756 3 жыл бұрын

This is how « posh » people speak... It’s their way of obliging us to pay attention to their conversation.

@colindingwall8171 3 жыл бұрын

The moderator is completely biased against Ali Allawi. Interesting discussion spoiled by prejudice.

@AFKAwesome 7 жыл бұрын

Um uhhh *stutters*

@susan137 4 жыл бұрын

Stuttering doesn't decrease the man's knowledge or intelligence ... but centering on the stutter instead of the content of message say a lot about those listeners.

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

Ali Allawi totally deluded wishful thinking and so polite of the chair to let him ramble like that. Would love to hear his motive for a unified Arab state. I can guess...

@peggygeren4169 2 жыл бұрын

Did you guess independence, stability, prosperity, security, peace?

@secallen 2 жыл бұрын

@@peggygeren4169 No: despotism, instability, poverty, insecurity, war - as is common in every multi-tribal Arab state. The only ME states that offer security and prosperity are the ones predominantly ruled by a single tribe, e.g. the former Trucial States of the Gulf... and Israel.

@peggygeren4169 2 жыл бұрын

Double clutch?