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The Mass - Early Christianity in Carnuntum

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Quartodecimani

Quartodecimani

4 жыл бұрын

The 4th century is a period of religious tolerance in the Roman Empire. It is a period of religious transition between the last persecutions of Christians at the start of the century and the institutionalisation of Christianity as sole state religion by emperor Theodosius I. at the end of the century.
Four soldiers of the 14th legion stationed at Carnuntum on the Danube frontier, walk through the marsch lands of the Danube in order to find the local bishop and to bring him to a private house for a private mass. The first large churches are being built since the start of the 4th century, but in most border towns, services are still held in private houses and even hidden places at times. Christianity is not very present in Carnuntum yet. Absence of much Christian findings in the archaeological record indicate that Carnuntum still had a strong pagan community in the 4th century. This is shown by the absence during the mass of two of the soldiers initially among the party, as they still adhere to the older cults.
Music: Roman Chant (6th century AD).
Title: "Introitus: Dominus dixit ad me".
Service: Mesonycticon (Midnight Mass).
Performers: Ensemble Organum, Director: Marcel Peres
Album: "Chant de l'Eglise de Rome (VIe - XIIIe Siècles)"

Пікірлер: 153
@calebnwafor2549
@calebnwafor2549 6 ай бұрын
I am a Roman Catholic, this is a very beautiful description of the Mass.
@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw
@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw 11 ай бұрын
I am Greek Orthodox and I find this reenactment deeply moving ☦️⚓❤️
@MassachusettsTrainVideos1136
@MassachusettsTrainVideos1136 5 ай бұрын
Remember Rome was once Orthodox
@drugleman601
@drugleman601 5 ай бұрын
@@MassachusettsTrainVideos1136once aprt of the true Mother Church
@MassachusettsTrainVideos1136
@MassachusettsTrainVideos1136 5 ай бұрын
@@drugleman601 Amin
@TreyYork1
@TreyYork1 3 жыл бұрын
I have no idea how I got this recommendation, but I *love* that a bunch of geeks decided this was a good use of their limited resources of time, energy and money to produce! I hope it lasts forever on the internet and that it is treated with respect
@jajohnson7809
@jajohnson7809 3 жыл бұрын
I attend a Western-rite Russian Orthodox parish. The abbott of the Benedictine monastery in Cañon City, Colorado told me the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great is virtually unchanged from the times of early Christian Rome--unlike the Byzantine rite, which has undergone a few alterations. This is very interesting, and inspiring. Thanks!
@sakellarioudimitris7439
@sakellarioudimitris7439 Жыл бұрын
Indeed brother I thought it was a Uniate act until I looked it up 😅 I'm so dumb......
@colonelpanic17
@colonelpanic17 10 ай бұрын
Ah! A fellow Western Rite Orthodox Christian!
@sakellarioudimitris7439
@sakellarioudimitris7439 9 ай бұрын
​@@colonelpanic17 Good noon and blessed Lord's Day Here's one from the Byzantine Rite
@stephanottawa7890
@stephanottawa7890 7 ай бұрын
Ja, it is great, but where can you find it???
@dylanarmour6727
@dylanarmour6727 7 ай бұрын
@@stephanottawa7890Whittier California
@violetrose415
@violetrose415 2 жыл бұрын
Can I express my great love and appreciation? I have for a while now loved the soldier saints of our church history To see a demonstration of how they might have attended mass, to see a group like you caring, touches me in deep levels So, thank you thank you thank you❤️
@ultramet
@ultramet 5 ай бұрын
I am Roman Catholic (TLM and NO-depends on what time I wake up). I can really get into any mass that doesn't have a 45-minute homily or a 2nd collection. I need to travel back to the 4th century more often.
@Michael_P_G
@Michael_P_G 5 ай бұрын
I don't know how did I end up here but I love it, this is beautiful!!
@omnius28
@omnius28 4 жыл бұрын
This is absolutely gorgeous and amazing. Blown away at the reconstruction of this.
@fiukkas
@fiukkas 5 ай бұрын
Eu amo esse vídeo. Eu vejo ele todos os dias que eu posso. Eu gostaria muito de celebrar essa missa uma dia
@corneliu-mihaimagureanu6626
@corneliu-mihaimagureanu6626 2 жыл бұрын
I honestly would love to attend a service like this
@SirPoopallot
@SirPoopallot 6 ай бұрын
Yes! 4 min mass.... short and to the point.
@corneliu-mihaimagureanu6626
@corneliu-mihaimagureanu6626 5 ай бұрын
​@@SirPoopallotwell obviously the whole thing, this was shortened but I mean I proper liturgy of saint Gregory, with traditional vestments
@user-pk3iv5wi2q
@user-pk3iv5wi2q 6 ай бұрын
I live in the Village right next to Carnuntum called Vindobona , I have vistited Carnuntum multiple times
@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw
@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw 11 ай бұрын
A refreshing breeze of historical reconstructive integrity.
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes 3 жыл бұрын
Notice a woman near the altar, communion in the hand, and communion under both kinds. I often have to remind people that the novus ordo is not a liturgical novelty or artificial science project, but was an effort to offer the liturgy based on the earliest sources from the church’s earliest era. It actually is authentic and ancient. This is not to argue for the superiority of one form of the Roman rite over another - or how the mass is often celebrated - but history is history and facts are facts. The better we know history, the less we will engage in - and fall victim to - ideology and polemics. I love the mass - both the NO and the TLM. And the rubrics of and intention behind the NO are beautiful. I’m blessed to say I love the NO and have been fed by it. And stuff like this makes me appreciate it even more! I can’t thank you enough for this. I just wish it was longer!!
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
Indeed, an often overlooked aspect of Paleo-Christian practice, is the amalgamation with Roman tradition and that Roman tradition in many households was still the more important guideline, overruling even liturgic aspects. Masses were often celebrated in private households, and here, the woman of the house, the Domina, would oftentimes not accept a minor role or a form of exclusion. Specially Roman widdows were really the boss in the house and they had great authority. If they were rich, such as in this attempted recosntruction, it is entirely out of the question, that her status, in her own house, would be deminished by religious practice. This is social reality in the 4th century, a reality with which also the early church had to contend with.
@handel1111
@handel1111 3 жыл бұрын
but Clown masses, no
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
@@handel1111?
@ANIND123
@ANIND123 2 жыл бұрын
look up the condemned error of Antiquarianism/Archeologism in Pius Xii's Mediator Dei.
@handel1111
@handel1111 Жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 The Novus Ordo is as beautiful as the TLM when it's done according to the GIRM. I understand that it's an effort to restore the long forgotten practices of the early Christianity but those modernists as opportunistic as they can be, mocked and ridiculed it by turning it into Clown Masses and other abominations.
@OrthoKarter
@OrthoKarter Жыл бұрын
I am a very big fan of the late roman empire, early byzantine empire, and early christianity aswell as orthodoxy in said empires! also very nice chants! God Bless!
@josephjude1290
@josephjude1290 Ай бұрын
Absolutely beautiful
@williamrees6662
@williamrees6662 3 жыл бұрын
This is fantastic. May I ask how accurate this is? I must say, having seen this, I can come to terms with the changes brought about by Vatican II, having been very much a Tridentine rite man for a long time. I hadn’t realised how similar the modern Mass is to the ancient version, nor that the Canon was said aloud. A few questions: 1. Is the man in the dalmatic a deacon or a priest? 2. Am I right in thinking that the deacon and not the bishop is saying the collect just before the liturgy of the word? 3. What Canon of the Mass are they using? 4. Were the Mass and Office said together at this point (the Iube, Domne)? I know that is still the custom in the East. 5. How formalised were the vestments at this stage (I see a dalmatic and a pallium - were these already part of the uniform?) 6. Is the woman a female deacon or is she just a laywoman? I am wondering why she appears to be near the altar. Sorry for so many questions. This has peaked my interest.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
Salve and thank you for your comment. To answer your questions: 1. The man in the Manicata (not Dalmatica) is a deacon. :) 2. You are correct as far as we are aware. 3.We where attempting outtakes of an Ambrosian rite. 4. We think so but are only delving into this fascinating research at this stage, we are happy abut any further information to improve our displays. 5. That is not sufficiently known for the 4th century. But towards the later half of the 4th century it should be quite formalised already if we believe the Codex Theodosianus with its many laws for vestments. 6. She is a deacon in this scenario.
@williamrees6662
@williamrees6662 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your response. It is an extremely interesting topic and one I should like to know more about...I look forward to your future videos. I see that you are from Pannonia. Cassius Dio, on whom I wrote my DPhil thesis was governor there in the 3rd Century and hated the Pannonians and their beer, and they hated him! He says they wanted to kill him. It may be a bit early for your time period, but I would love to see a video of an obese, balding Greek senator being chased out of Carnuntum by an angry mob of Pannonia soldiers throwing beer mugs at him. I am based in Rome in a Catholic religious order. Our basilica is 5th century, so if you’d like some photos or anything for your research/displays, please let me know.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
@@williamrees6662 Fantastic! Once the current pestilence is over, we will likely come to Rome for a visit of every and all 4th and 5th century church structures still standing. We may even meet you there if it shall be. We are very interested in working more closely with the church, as, all circumstances considered, she is our most direct link to the Roman Empire today.
@marcoscorsolini8803
@marcoscorsolini8803 3 жыл бұрын
Nice comment. I do agree to some extent, even though in the 4th century they were not preaching that man is God, and they did not have a "world" to open up to, and basically no tradition to defend. But it is food for thought nonetheless. Besides, the Vatican II was never applied in its intended form and intentions, and it was more influenced by Paul VI than by John XXIII
@marlonmunguia163
@marlonmunguia163 3 жыл бұрын
Would female deacons be this close to the altar. I was told that they just helped prepare the liturgy and baptize females.
@Kohnbread19
@Kohnbread19 4 жыл бұрын
This is absolutely fantastic well done.
@FatherJMarcelPortelli
@FatherJMarcelPortelli 6 ай бұрын
The Traditional Latin Mass is sometimes referred to as the Mass of Gregory the Great. I'd recommend you Google the First Apology of Justin Martyr. He describes the Mass as it was celebrated in Rome circa 150AD.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 6 ай бұрын
Gratias amice. We have indeed been studying the first apology of Justin Martyr. His description is broad and leaves much room for interpretation. We have taken it into account though and also complemented with the Ambrosian mass. Likely dating back to the 4th century. :)
@trosenthal3711
@trosenthal3711 5 ай бұрын
Very nice, but was the communion in the hand not practiced in a different way than shown in this video? I remember hearing that it was placed in the right hand, which was then brought up to the mouth and the host was eaten directly from the palm. It certainly seems unrealistic that they would place the body of our Lord in the left hand, which has always been considered impure.
@wiktorb7433
@wiktorb7433 5 ай бұрын
There was never something like placing the communion in the hand until many centuries later Rome introduced it. The Holy Communion is body and blood, I really do not know how Rome just cancelled the blood from being given to faithful, it is an incomplete Communion. And even if we say You only receive the body, taking it in Your own hand is too much, regardless which hand. I know in Poland the catholics never get the communion in their hand but directly into their mouth, that is at least a bit more pious
@violetrose415
@violetrose415 2 жыл бұрын
I know, these are civilians, but I love to imagine how the saints lived when they were common people like us :D
@MAMRetro
@MAMRetro 6 ай бұрын
This is very interesting and nice, seeing how the Mass was said in ancient times. Like a favorite bush or tree, the plant grows - upwards in strength and beauty. The same goes for the Church - growing and evolving. Many have said in these comments how we should regain this “primitive” worship. Unfortunately, it would be impossible to accomplish. We cannot ask the Church, at 70, to be 12 again. It’s just not going to happen. As for Vatican II, they planted a whole new tree, and it is very sickly.
@theholyinquisition389
@theholyinquisition389 6 ай бұрын
Very cool. Did you reenact an entire mass and is there an uncut version of the video ?
@juncatv
@juncatv 4 ай бұрын
Catholics and orthodox liking it. This is the way.
@Chevalierjacquesarthur
@Chevalierjacquesarthur 2 жыл бұрын
praise be to god and his glory!
@juanguemez884
@juanguemez884 5 ай бұрын
Amen.
@JaredChacon
@JaredChacon 11 ай бұрын
This is awesome and long overdue. But can you please upload a version without the chanting background chant? I'd love to share this as an example of an early liturgy but it would be much more realistic and interesting to hear your voices and prayers in the liturgy, rather than a studio recording of an ensemble in the background. Thank you.
@nicholasholiday941
@nicholasholiday941 6 ай бұрын
The chants do however show how different the chant style was in Rome before gregorian chant.
@gregcoogan8270
@gregcoogan8270 6 ай бұрын
The liturgy then, as it is still done now in the East, would have been chanted. The tradition of chanting the liturgy and prayers is in continuity with the way worship has been done from the Old Testmant untl then, and now. So the chanting is a integral part of of it and would have been absolutely realistic.
@power4350
@power4350 6 ай бұрын
The use of Latin in the Latin rite can be traced back to apostolic times. St Peter used Latin in Rome out of respect for the Roman people and the fact that Rome was the seat of the empire. Also, while there existed “diakonia” (female deacons) in the early Church, there is no evidence that they were “ordained” by the ritual laying on of hands, and they certainly did not have a liturgical function.
@francescop.c.3298
@francescop.c.3298 Ай бұрын
There's absolutely no evidence of St. Peter, or any of the apostoles for that matter, speaking Latin. They surely spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, maybe Greek, but surely not Latin.
@charlesurban3230
@charlesurban3230 Ай бұрын
WHAT in the world is this? A ceramic plate and a modern glass chalice?!. We can't hear the dialogue. The producer not only provides NO sources for this post in the remarks--which makes me immediately suspicious--but the continual hand raising by the participants (?); the presbyter blessing in the fashion of an Anglican celebrant; the deacon standing immediately in the presbyter's position before the altar. I could go on. I'd really enjoy having a historical liturgist weigh in on this and--possibly--it might lead someone to produce REAL "reconstruction" closer to 4th century use.
@danteprudente8637
@danteprudente8637 2 жыл бұрын
Μεσονύκτικον is not a midnight mass but part of the monastic Divine office night prayer later Matins 2 am in the Latin rite. From Psalm118:62, At midnight I arose to give thanks unto Thee for the judgments of Thy righteousness (LXX). I am not sure what this video is about Holy Mass or monastic the Divine Office? On what rubrics is the reconstruction based? Is this a fictional mass set to plain song? Confused. Please explain.
@ErickeTR
@ErickeTR 4 жыл бұрын
Amazing!
@DonalLeader
@DonalLeader 3 ай бұрын
Beautiful and inspiring
@DWayneLayman
@DWayneLayman 2 жыл бұрын
Why the chant? Totally obscured what was going on. Obviously the mass enacted doesn’t include the chant, since no one is chanting.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 2 жыл бұрын
Because it's an atmospheric video. It's about the aesthetics of late antiquity and the chant is from the 6th century.
@brotherbroseph1416
@brotherbroseph1416 6 ай бұрын
There would be chanting too.
@skellez83
@skellez83 5 ай бұрын
I also suggested all of you to visit a the catacombs in Rome.
@sebaslek38
@sebaslek38 6 ай бұрын
you mean there was chanting at consecration and even after the parishioners left the church?
@beewizerm8
@beewizerm8 3 жыл бұрын
Can I ask - do we have some evidence for the various gestures and movements? Like the general structure?
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
It is based on the Ambrosian rite, still performed in Milano and iconography of the 5th and 6th centuries.
@tommcconville677
@tommcconville677 6 ай бұрын
This is the true, devout, divine and blessed worship of the early church and the first Christians. Still practiced by Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The various Christian denominations today, for the most part, have rejected the Divine Liturgy. See: Reformation.
@pvdp2
@pvdp2 5 ай бұрын
The N.O. has many similarities with the 1st century Roman liturgy. We pray and we hope that the N.O. mass will use the Old Roman chant, the communion of both kinds, and the priest must celebrate the mass Ad Orientem.
@dt534
@dt534 3 жыл бұрын
NO dislikes, god bless!
@barrysaunders8787
@barrysaunders8787 3 жыл бұрын
Communion in the hand is to be avoided at all times unless these peopke are all ordained priests, then, I accept. Priests have consecrated hands, or, at least they are suppose to. Today, who knows what is going on.
@barrysaunders8787
@barrysaunders8787 3 жыл бұрын
The only problem I am having with this video is that these faithful are placing the precious sacrement in to the hand of the parishioner, It would be OK to do this providing these parishioners are ordained though. Are they priests?
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
This was controversial but still practiced in the 4th century.
@Jeronimo_de_Estridao
@Jeronimo_de_Estridao Жыл бұрын
There is a lot of evidence in patristic literature that the christians received the sacrament in their hands.
@user-ho5gr4yx1j
@user-ho5gr4yx1j 7 ай бұрын
Очень классная работа,как будто в 4веке очутился.Очень круто!
@theodorleberle
@theodorleberle Жыл бұрын
I don't think that the woman near the altar is very historic.
@omikron.
@omikron. 3 ай бұрын
Diakoniss
@theodorleberle
@theodorleberle 3 ай бұрын
@@omikron. Not historic. It's not like a Deacon with liturgical tasks.
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes 3 жыл бұрын
Does anyone know any primary sources I can refer to that were used to reconstruct this?
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
In terms of material culture or rite?
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes 3 жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 rite, brother. Ty!
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
@@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes It is based on the Ambrosian rite still practiced in Milano today. But it has adaptations, that are hypothetical and based on an amalgamation with Roman customs at the time. Christianity wasn't taken on by all Romans in all corners of the Empire the same way and during the mid 4th century we can by no means expect a uniform way of performing one and the same rite. Carnuntum, in Pannonia Prima for instance seems to not have had a very active Christian community in the 4th century. Aquincum on the other hand, in Pannonia Valeria, seems to have had a bigger Christian community, speaking for greater regional differences between cities. Here we see probably very new converts or catechumen and a very young priest.
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes 3 жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 rite, brother. Thanks!!
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes
@Dustin_Quick_Holy_Smokes 3 жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 thank you!
@ericw3517
@ericw3517 7 ай бұрын
It has a simple beauty to it.
@stephanottawa7890
@stephanottawa7890 7 ай бұрын
This is sort of weird. They take the host before the wine is consecrated. That is totally wrong and theologically bad. First the bread is consecrated and then the wine and then the distribution of both beginning with the consecrated host. It is not just because I think it should be so. It is the way it has been done in the ancient church and symbolizes the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. At the end the bishop appears to give a blessing with a sign of the cross. It looks more like he is waving the air. A blessing was not given at the end of the mass until well into the middle ages and then only by bishops and then later by priests and they did not wave their hands in such a weird fashion. It all reminds me of the horrid Vat II mass if anything. These people had good intentions, but should have been a bit less concerned with dramatic gestures and possibly should have consulted an historian of the true Mass of the Ages.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 7 ай бұрын
Too bad that they did indeed consult church historians and also kept most elements from the Ambrosian rite, which is still celebrated in Milan.
@PixelYT-ts2fe
@PixelYT-ts2fe 6 ай бұрын
i feel blessed
@mylifeforthelord5535
@mylifeforthelord5535 5 ай бұрын
It is impossible they would have left the wine undrunken. The communion on the hand as depicted here is also incorrect.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 5 ай бұрын
In the fourth century, St. Cyril of Jerusalem described the practice of his own time and place in a famous passage (Mystagogicae catecheses 5,21): Coming up to receive, therefore, do not approach with your wrists extended or your fingers splayed, but making your left hand a throne for the right (for it is about to receive a King) and cupping your palm, so receive the body of Christ, and answer, “Amen.” Carefully hallow your eyes by the touch of the sacred body, and then partake, taking care to lose no part of it. Such a loss would be like a mutilation of your own body. Why, if you had been given gold dust, would you not take the utmost care to hold it fast, not letting a grain slip through your fingers, lest you be by so much the poorer? How much more carefully, then, will you guard against losing so much as a crumb of that which is more precious than gold and precious stones! Placed into the right hand...just like it is done here.
@mylifeforthelord5535
@mylifeforthelord5535 5 ай бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 You can see in the iconography that the faithful bowed down, exceeded their hands in front of them, placing their right hand on the left and then lifted both hands before their faces to pick up the Holy sacrament with their tounge. I'm not denying that communion on the hand was practiced. Just the way it is depicted here is the faulty version of the modern communion on the hand
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 5 ай бұрын
@@mylifeforthelord5535 I am sorry to say, but there is no surviving iconography of the communion from the 4th century. We have to accept that most of what we now call practice in the various churches, was by and large only canonised and partially conceived in the 4th century. Specially at the beginning of conversion of large swathes of the Roman population, there was far from unified practice. We simply don't know enough about the practice in the 4th century.
@mylifeforthelord5535
@mylifeforthelord5535 4 ай бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 We know by tradition how it was held. Modernism spoiled the faith
@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319
@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319 6 ай бұрын
Subscribed 🧿
@Saltrams
@Saltrams 4 жыл бұрын
What is the soundtrack, please?
@williamrees6662
@williamrees6662 3 жыл бұрын
Saltrams It is Mozarabic chant and sounds like the Ensemble Organum
@Biggun3567
@Biggun3567 5 ай бұрын
Aw yes the Eastern Orthodox way the true way, there sure was no universal jurisdiction guy around
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 5 ай бұрын
This is just based on archaeology and on 4th century sources as far as available.
@GregoryBryant-yb4pn
@GregoryBryant-yb4pn 6 ай бұрын
What is the chant
@republicradio431
@republicradio431 Жыл бұрын
Idk if this is an acurate depiction, maiby it is, but as a catholic i find it wierd that we would find those who are not priests raising their hands, woman (or any lay person) present in the altar floor, communion in the hand with out kneeling, etc Looks like a protestant mass to me
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 Жыл бұрын
Hands up is the normal praying posture in the 4th century as attested by iconography and it was taken by lay persons and women as well. One problem many conaisseurs of church history and specially mass history have is that their sources do break down in the 4th century. Most secured knowledge about ritual stems from after this period. We can mainly go into reconstructive effort in the 4th century and what pieces we do have in provincial Rome are absolutely not dogmatically unified. Therefore, what counts in the 5th or 6th centuries, may not at all be the norm in the 4th or before. :)
@republicradio431
@republicradio431 Жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 all good man, i would take more inspiration on the greek mass maiby? (im roman im not traying to be biassed) (also doesent have to be perfect ether im just talking for talking)
@bishoythakla5896
@bishoythakla5896 Жыл бұрын
Lots of issues in this video... it doesn't seem very accurate at all
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 Жыл бұрын
Such as? :) Our consultants are catholic priests and church historians. I'd be interested to see which unknown sources about the 4th century Roman provincial practice you can contribute to the debate so that we can make a more accurate video. (The clothing is 1 to 1 replicated from archaeological materials, and the building is a faithful reconstruction on an original foundation in a museum. The rite is based on the Ambrosian mass, with changes to fit early to mid 4th century provincial circumstances.)
@Ebash-Banderu
@Ebash-Banderu 2 жыл бұрын
Фильмы снимать не пробовали?
@micoolkidfilms3270
@micoolkidfilms3270 6 ай бұрын
All the rad trad Tridentine lovers are coping hard after this dropped, when they realise the true Novus Ordo if preformed correctly is closer to 4th century Mass than the Tridentine Mass
@trosenthal3711
@trosenthal3711 5 ай бұрын
In which way?
@micoolkidfilms3270
@micoolkidfilms3270 5 ай бұрын
@@trosenthal3711 because the Tridentine mass is an innovation, Trent took away the rood screens and made the mass more Protestant like
@trosenthal3711
@trosenthal3711 5 ай бұрын
@@micoolkidfilms3270 I think that’s missing the point, because you were talking about how the NO is closer to a 4th century mass. There is no rood screen in either the TLM, NO or in this video. So how is the NO closer to a 4th century mass?
@micoolkidfilms3270
@micoolkidfilms3270 5 ай бұрын
@@trosenthal3711 because the NO is concelebrated unlike the Tridentine mass. Using your logic you should just got to an ambrosian rite or an eastern rite Catholic Church if you want a liturgy that is as close as the early church liturgy as possible. And rood screens is a representation of the Jewish temple and tent of meeting, a lot of that style was incorporated into early churches.
@trosenthal3711
@trosenthal3711 5 ай бұрын
@@micoolkidfilms3270 which logic of mine are you talking about exactly? Also, I don’t think that the NO having the option of concelebration alone makes it more similar to the early mass. Since the early mass was celebrated ad orientem, I would say that this is a much larger point where the TLM is closer to Traditional liturgies.
@ABC-dj5gj
@ABC-dj5gj 3 жыл бұрын
Too many problems with this .... for start women weren’t even allowed within the sanctuary even now ...
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
We have evidence for their presence in late antiquity. The sister of Pope Damasus I. is one example. There were so many differening rites and contested practices specially during the 4th century, that it is not possible to go over all of the details in a short video. However, bear in mind that this plays in Carnuntum, at the time of emperor Julian the Apostate. Carnuntum has barely any archaeological traces of christianity which suggests the level of acceptance or spread of the religion was quite behind other parts of the empire in Pannonia (Carnuntum was the largest city in Pannonia). Obscure rites, Catechumen, mixtures and various "heresies" would have been ripe during all the 4th and 5th centuries.
@Transleithania
@Transleithania 3 жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 , Pope Damasus I sister was never in the sanctuary. This is not an evidence.
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
We recommend Kaisa-Maria Pihlava's paper on women hosts in private Christian gatherings in Roman antiquity on the subject. Christian dogma was not as solidified in the 4th century and Roman customs where in many places outweighing other considerations on religious practices. It is important to not just consider strict theology and liturgical practice history, but also the wider cultural context. A monistic answer won't help here.
@DannyEastVillage
@DannyEastVillage 3 жыл бұрын
silly man. we have no way of knowing either way about that. We don't even know if the places where the church made Eucharist in those years even had what you and I would think of as a "sanctuary."
@ABC-dj5gj
@ABC-dj5gj 3 жыл бұрын
@@DannyEastVillage look up the word sanctuary and the Church doesn’t ‘make’ the Eucharist. Not the way your mom might make/bake a cake
@Transleithania
@Transleithania 3 жыл бұрын
Historical total inaccurate and amateur. Nonsense.
@Alexander_Fuscinianus
@Alexander_Fuscinianus 3 жыл бұрын
If you such a "pro" in this question, maybe you should help them? :)
@quartodecimani6908
@quartodecimani6908 3 жыл бұрын
It is actually pretty accurate in terms of material culture and it is less amateur than any comparable undertakings. There are undeniable uncertainties in terms of the ritual practice in the 4th century and we know that some Christian currents don't want to look the truth in the eye, that standardisation has not yet occurred in all parts of the Roman empire in the mid 4th century. 🤷
@rev.jon2277
@rev.jon2277 2 жыл бұрын
@@quartodecimani6908 Good video and best attempts efforts! Of course no one of us existed then yet evidences are alive, from writings to iconographies! it brings me back to catacombs and Domus Ecclesia murals! most of all, that SURRENDERING ARMS OUTSTRECHED! The orans posture! personally it is the best sign in the whole Mass of the Common Priesthood of all Christians, affirmed by Doctor St. Augustine: Vobis Episcopus sum, Vobiscum CHRISTIANUS SUM! Amen. This is practiced here by many Pinoys
@rickmorgan8856
@rickmorgan8856 6 ай бұрын
@@Alexander_Fuscinianus Mass? Catholic ? Is that scriptural ? Jesus said repent of your sins and be saved. Catholic church is rooted in the babylonian system. Bad news. Seek Jesus as Saviour from sin while He can still be found. Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.
@Alexander_Fuscinianus
@Alexander_Fuscinianus 6 ай бұрын
@@rickmorgan8856 Good news, I've already found Him in His Church, which was created by Him and guide by Him, firstly through His chosen pupils, apostoles and after them through their succesors, bishops. This is the very system, which exists after hundreds of years since christianity exist. And, as a member of Greek Orthodox Church, I am proud to be a part of His Church, founded back in the days of Roman Empire. This is much better than "pseudo-biblical" neoprotestant movement, rooted in mistakes of few people. P. S. Catholic Church is not root in some "babylonian system", it was a part of the Orrhodox Church but fall into a heresy. But we still recognize the Popes of Rome as the succesors of the St. Peater the Apostole
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