You guys are the Best 😊😊😊😊

Disregard my last comment. Thanks for fixing it quickly!

That stuff looks like it tastes of fresh dirt 😅

New York Knickerbockers

@@beast667 I think it looks like algae. Too green for me.

Thanks as always Kevin. You're a legend, especially for baiting Simon to go on that baldness tangent.

Of course we enjoy them Kevin, in our twisted way, many crime fanatics find these true stories somehow calming, soothing. Maybe it helps keep our moral compasses in check? Fantastic writing, as always, thank you, Kevin & team, ❤ from Australia 🇦🇺 . Ps I hope Simon is feeding you enough basement fungus so that you can keep writing these disturbing gems! 🍄 😉 👍

Thanks for keeping us updated and writing such bangers Kevin you’re the real MVP!

Thank you for all the excellent work.

Kevin you are a legend, I love your work. Please look into the home Invasion that took place in the 90’s in Oakley, Utah. Crazy story, look it up.

For sure! As a little kid I used to pray that my parents would get divorced.

Absolutely. My parents have been married for 37 years and we’ve been trying to get our dad to leave our mom for years. Sometimes divorce is better and healthier.

And here I am that grew up with 2 miserable divorced parents 😂

That's only in cases where the parents let their unhappiness get in the way of being proper parents like where they're constantly fighting in front of the kids. In cases where a couple stays together for the kids civilly, it's almost always better for the children.

@@pattondurioMy parents very rarely fought in front of me but I definitely still picked up on it. It actually taught me some really bad habits when it comes to relationships. I hide my emotions and don't say what I truly think because I'm trying to keep the peace. It's really unhealthy.

Stop lying. Mendez brothers are spoiled. They wanted to live a rich and Lavish life style. They murdered their parents.

​@@helldog63 Wtf is wrong with you?

People who work with and advocate on behalf of childhood victims of SA know better. Ignorant people do not want to hear these uncomfortable truths. If you don't know, it isn't real. Right? Denial.

I'll be totally honest, I had only ever heard the "rich kids murder parents for money" angle and so I thought they were totally guilty, but hearing about this changes everything for me. Let's face it -- if this were a young girl who was captured and held hostage for years being abused, then one day manages to break free and kill her abuser, she'd be lauded as a hero. They should be released with time served. I do not in any way feel that they'd be a threat to the general public.

​​@@overworkedcna412While I agree that someone who manages to break free and kill their abuser is a hero, I have seen numerous cases where a girl/woman did just that and was tried, convicted, and demonized by the public for doing so, not lauded as a hero. While I do not disagree that there is bias against seeing boys/men as victims of abuse and that cases of abuse against boys may be treated differently than those against girls, the fact is that all victims are more often than not treated as perpetrators when they take action to end the abuse. Race is also a determining factor: white women are more likely to be seen as heroic victims escaping abuse in these caes, while women of color are more likely to just be treated as murderers, no matter what horors they were subjected to and were trying to escape from.

Jose maybe calculating but not that calculating. Seems like they were a young couple in love when they married and people were expected to marry young and have kids then. More likely Jose probably kept dragging her along promising baby sitters, au pairs, etc. as he climb the corporate ladder.

@@SEAZNDragon if he wanted kids, she wouldn't have had a choice. She wanted her own career, he wanted a legacy. Tbs, they may have married *because* she was pregnant, or she was initially on board & changed her mind after the fact. Today there are a lot more options of OTC birth control that can be used surreptitiously if needed.

Yeah, the good old days. Let's not go back.

@@andiward7068 That's still assuming Kitty wanted an abortion at the time of the pregnancy. Sure it's well documented she hated her sons and blame them for her lack of a career, but that didn't seem to materialize until several years after the births and around the time she learn of Jose's affairs. I'm sure realizing you gave up a career for a man who cheated on you would put a damper on being a mom.

​@@Bildgesmythethe republicans in the US certainly want to go back to that. 🤮

That's terrible. I'm sorry. I hope you have many happy years with your bunny!

Yeah, there was a period after my sexual assault where the idea of myself or someone else exacting revenge on my attacker made me feel more secure. I think it was sort of my mind trying to reassert a feeling of power.

Big difference between thinking it and acting on it. I've also been through abuse and we constantly see it in Serial Killers as well. Murder is still murder, I don't think a new trial is necessary. They are still without a doubt guilty of murder. It's not like the context will change it to a lesser charge

oh, I feel this. if u have to tell ur new wife "u can't touch my children to punish them" bc said wife is breaking wooden kitchen utensils u maybe have the wrong spouse. (and if u think the only kind of "real" scar is the kind u can physically see, u are maybe not dad of the year.) I never thought about ending her myself bc I was too afraid of the repercussions but I sure did fantasize about her grisly end for a long ass time. nowadays I'm completely apathetic toward her. I don't forgive her by any means, but she left me with crippling anxiety and depression. I just don't have the energy to give a damn about what happens to her one way or the other.

I disagree. I am a survivor myself of CSA, and grew up in the 80's when you got spanked at school and home. It was a horrible. And yes, I did and still do have fantasies about going back and righting the wrongs done to me. However, even if the abuse occurred, the brothers planned this murder. It was premeditated as evident by the fact that they bought two shotguns using false identification. Furthermore, they admit, and the evidence shows they fired first. They also reloaded their weapons and continued firing when their victims were clearly incapacitated. And most importantly they did these things as legal adults. Even if you want to say the first shots were because they feared for their lives (and there is zero evidence to substantiate that claim) the fact is they left the room where their parents lay dying, reloaded their shotguns and came back and resumed shooting them. I am not saying that the parents weren't bad people, but Kyle and Lyle's actions were premeditated murder and they bothe deserve life. The alleged abuse (some of which I think did occur, but I have my doubts as to the extent) offers enough mitigation that the needle isn't warranted.

@EmmaChihuahua81 100% correct. People, Simon included here, do not understand the legal aspects at play here. Simon for example kept mentioning his "reasonable doubt" however, reasonable doubt is for determining if someone is innocent or guilty. That does not apply in this particular case as we already are aware of their guilt, this is a case to determine the severity OF that said guilt and thus reasonable doubt does not apply here. Secondly, people do not understand or grasp just how stringent the laws for self defense are. In the simplest terms, essentially, unless the person is armed, arming themselves, actively assaulting you, or approaching you with malicious intent (such as someone breaking into your home) then it likely does not constitute self defense. Via the facts provided from both court cases, I see no legal standing for a plea of self defense. Yes, there could well have been the father saying he would kill them but anyone who has gamed online has received 100s of these such threatening words and that does not provide grounds for self defense. So to recap, there is no case for self defense and reasonable doubt is nonapplicable here. So what does that leave us with? It leaves us with the degree to which they are guilty for taking their parents lives. Given the premeditated nature of the attack, it falls under 1st degree murder. Alright so we know they are guilty of 1st degree murder, so what's the trial ACTUALLY to determine? Very simple, the sentencing. The sentencing is the only thing in question here and they already were spared death row due to having no prior history of violent crime. The only argument I can see is the "no parole" part of their sentencing.

It would definitely be Complex PTSD given the repeated traumas throughout their entire childhood.

@@RavingKats agreed. I just didn't want to step outside of the given diagnosis and be yelled at lol

The therapist Dr Oziel never mentioned the brothers saying anything about being sociopaths during his testimony. He simply said that he gave the brothers two examples of killings. One where a man comes home to find his wife cheating on him and so he shoots the wife in the heat of the moment. The other was a killing where there weren't as many feelings involved but it was to do with an ongoing issue. The brothers apparently chose the second option but during their testimony said that neither example matched what happened but the second one was closer as it was about an ongoing issue. All of this aside Dr Oziel was heavily discredited during the trial, proven to be lying about certain things and was recorded on tape admitting he was planning on blackmailing the brothers so for all we know nothing about sociopaths was ever discussed during the sessions. Also kind of a weird thing for a therapist to be bringing up with his patients seeing as sociopath is more of a pop culture term and is not any sort of actual medical diagnosis.

Last one ended abruptly in the middle of the story

Me too 😂 I was mid watching when it was taken down and thought I was losing my mind!

Me too, I was finally about to listen when it went unavailable and I was about to start throwing shh 😂

I thought I was crazy and imagined the video

Was confused when I was listening snd cut off suddenly. I thought youtube goofed, but the video cut early. Apparently with a missing hour! Thanks for the reupload! As for the alleged writers in the basement shhhh 🤫 or you may be next.

Thank you, I was hoping someone would mention it. I did some googling but couldn’t find anything recent

@@kailoveskittiesSame here. The one article I found gave a date in November that the decision needed to have been made by. Does that mean it won’t happen?

As of March 31st 2024, still no news on a new trial or resentencing

... I mean, most of this information was pretty readily available and talked about

@@ReddFoxx1562but at that time, people didn’t face that men&boys could be victims of abuse as well. And in this new generation it’s much more talked about and acknowledged

​@@Laylnizzlyeah, the prosecutor literally said men cant be raped. Pretty nasty

​@@LaylnizzlVictims become murderers all the time. Still makes them murderers.

@@Lucasp110 extremely ignorant🤦🏽‍♀️

Oh my god I did not know that

@@hannahp1108Me, either! It’s so disheartening to me to know how common it is for abuse victims to be criticized, not believed, etc.

@@hannahp1108 It was back in the day, but they still have the clip up on KZfaq. They're horrible. It's John Malkovich and Rob Schneider as the Menéndez brothers, crying and whining about wanting a pee break and being bratty... It's so not what happened in court. They were crying their hearts out remembering what was done to them. That was super genuine. I still can't wrap my head around how they weren't believed. There's still people saying they were lying, even nowadays.

It's a joke dude. We all have a bit of dark humour. I make jokes about shit I don't believe all the time

@@asterope1604A little dark humor with friends is not the same as one of the most popular shows in the country mocking sexual abuse. Especially that those boys got LIFE IN PRISON because people didn't believe them. You are insanely out of touch to be able to believe these things are equivalent. Also, punching down _always_ makes you a shitty person.

You're welcome!

Agreed 👍🏽

Same, to the point where the phrase "Menendez Brothers" sent a chill up your spine as cold blooded parent murderers. There was so much more to this than I knew.

Well they are still completely guilty. They just have additional motive now

​@@WhydTheyChangeOurNamesWell, their motive completely changes the outcome, doesn't it? They aren't complete cold blooded murderers. Just like a father killing their child's abuser isn't a completely frowned upon action.

@iulia.bianca.b it does not in this case, this was not a crime of passion due to the abuse. This was a planned out premeditated murder and the absolute brutal nature of the attack and staging it as a mob hit also shows it wasn't just blind rage/passion. This was a thought out attack plain and simple.

@@WhydTheyChangeOurNames Erik can be heard on their own confession tape while crying repeatedly saying "I had no choice, I had no choice. I would have taken any other choice". That doesn't sound super consistent with planned murder but it does line up with heat of passion and panic.

Thank you so much

You are awesome. Thanks!

You have saved my sanity - thank you.

Legend

Thanks so much for this

right?? the twins are real pieces of work, but people shouldn't be refused a fair trial just because we don't like them. the judge was absolutely overreaching and really did cut off most avenues for the jury to come to a not guilty verdict. it absolutely needs to be thrown out and retried

@@gummycats Yeah. With the evidence presented, I think there's a pretty compelling case for manslaughter due to imperfect self-defense. Also the prosecution saying that Lyle could have come up with the entire abuse angle because he actually really is gay and based it all off of his experiences having sex with men is... uh. Something. (They aren't twins by the way, Lyle is 2 years older. Though I can see how you'd get that impression - they look really similar on the thumbnail) Even leaving aside the murder they definitely aren't good people, but considering where they came from it's honestly kind of a mercy they focused their destructive impulses on the people who were directly responsible for at least some of how they ended up the way they did.

It was Erik they said that about.

I don’t think so, basically everyone who knows the brothers even back then talk about how sweet and kind they were. And they both do a lot of great stuff in the decades they’ve been in prison. Like Lyle running a support group for male survivors of sexual abuse or the two running their mural painting program. They’re also both happily married and Erik has a daughter who loves him.

I agree the abuse is a mitigating circumstance, but that is why they got life and not the death penalty. Even if abuse happened, even if was far more horrific that what it claimed, it doesn't change the facts of the case. Lyle and Erik murdered their parents. It was premeditated as established by the fact that the shotguns were purchased using false identification and from so far away. To claim self-defense (including imperfect self-defense) there are 4 requirements that must be met. The third requirements is about objectively reasonable use of force. Because they emptied both shotguns of rounds into their parents, left the room where they lay dead or dying, reloaded said shotguns (which hold a minimum of 6 rounds plus 1 in the chamber), went back into the room and continued firing they failed to meet the standard for self-defense. Also, in California law, because of the financial gain aspect of the crime they could have been charged with aggravated capital murder which is an automatic death sentence. They do not need a retrial because abused or not they wouldn't meet the legal standard for self-defense. The judge has the legal authority to instruct the jury on what evddence they can and cannot consid when deciding a case. By giving them life without parole they judge has already taken into account the mitigating factor of abuse because as I stated, California law is very clear that premeditated murder for financial gain is an automatic death penalty if found guilty.

Odd. In the UK all bathrooms have locks but no bedrooms.

The house I grew up in had locks, but nobody used them. The house I'm living in now has no locks on the bedrooms. Edit: US person here.

​@@fainitesbarley2245Nope. All bathroom doors do not have locks on them. I have never lived in a house that had a lock on the bathroom door. Or bedrooms for that matter.

@@ruthrandall2451 Gosh. I’ve never come across one that didn’t!

I am from the USA and yes I have always had a lock on my bedroom door. I have always used it too. When I was a kid and now as an adult. It just feels safer. How many times do you hear that someone breaks into your house/apartment? It happens and a locked bedroom door is one more barrier. It might also keep an abuser out of your room at night.

I was a kid too when it happened and hearing their testimony rings so true. It is absolutely horrible how people laughed at the allegations at the time due to the public's disbelief that it could happen to a male.

What hurt me the most, other than what happened to them as young children, is that their bond is incredible, and they were separated. Hope they can be reunited someday soon.

They were greedy little bastards. Retrial I think not😅 July without parole😊

​@@moondancer4660 💯

@@iulia.bianca.b they're in the same prison & share the same block now. I read about it a few years back & I double checked online to confirm. Now they probably see each other every day. Been reunited for about 5 years now :)

Same, Im a stepmum who never thought I'd have kids so it gives me an extra lil happy glow when I can relate to Simon's parenting tangents. Theyre a nice break from all the murder!

"who'd've thought having kids would be so nice!"

​@shawnstafford7809 it was missing the last 30mins or so

@shawnstafford7809 Simon is really good at following youtube guidelines. I wish he had an unhinged channel. That would be a hoot.

That's if he even knew what he was signing. I could picture it being just a simple "hey, now that your 18 we need you to sign these update forms." If it's not really explained to him coupled with dyslexia I'm sure he'd sign whatever was placed in front of him. Especially if he trusted the person handing them to him. If I'm being completely honest, I don't even read through the annual billing and HIPAA paperwork at my doctor's office each year. I just gloss over it and sign. If I was dyslexic I probably wouldn't even gloss over it, I'd just sign.

It seemed like more than this judge not believing them. Like he didn't care if it was true or not. The judges behaviour almost feels like he had an agenda from day one to see the brothers punished no matter what. Why? No idea but he made some very restrictive rulings and basically made it impossible, no matter what the defence put forward, for the brothers to get any type of mitigation.

Exactly!

Yup, there was a whole lot left out lol

100%, and not even the only one we have heard on this channel. But a very public trial was extremely biased by the judge recently, was joking around with the defendant, threw out a ton of the incriminating evidence, ect., and the guy walked.

It isn't like the judge just threw out the defense. In the American legal system the burden of proof for a claim of self defense is on the defense. The defense has to submit many pretrial motions and there are several hearings before the judge will allow someone to use self defense. There are 4 legal elements that have to be met. The third element is, "an objectively reasonable degree of force..." Lyle and Erik used pump action Mossberg 590's. Those hold 10 rounds plus one in the chamber. Not only did they use a total of 21 rounds on their parents, they left the room and reloaded firing possibly 21 more rounds. Reasonably degree of force was obliterated. Because self-defense wasn't in play neither could they use imperfect self-defense. Perhaps if they hadn't reloaded they could have used it, leaving, reloading, and returning negated it.

@@EmmaChihuahua81 There is some incorrect information. No version of the Mossberg 590 will hold 10+1 rounds. There is a model which will hold up to 9+1, but from trial photos, it is obvious that the shotguns used were the standard cylinder, which has a capacity of 6+1. Also, self defense laws vary wildly from state to state, and at the federal level. At the Federal level the burden is upon the prosecution to disprove self defense once it has been established by the defense (United States v. Thomas, 34 F.3d 44,47 (2d Cir. 1994).

@@KentBurgess If my information about the capacity was incorrect I apologize. I was under the impression they used the 10+1 model. However I do know the Mossberg 590 has a round rand from 6 to 20 rounds. My statement about the burden of proof for self defense being on the defense was in regards to them even being able to use it as a viable defensive strategy during trial. The judge has the authority to tell the defense that they aren't allowed to use self-defense. So what I meant was the defense team has the burden of proof to prove to the judge that their client is entitled to use self-defense (or in this case imperfect self-defense). If the defense proves to the judge that their case meets the requirements then during the trial the burden of proof shifts back to the prosecution.

​@@EmmaChihuahua81seems irrelevant though since the exact same judge allowed the exact same argument and evidence in the first trial but then decided to reject it in the second trial.

100%

I agree with a LOT of this, and if they’d said murdering Kitty was likewise self defense (given her role in their abuse), I wouldn’t have any doubt at ALL in their innocence. Framing her slaughter as a “mercy killing” is what gives me SERIOUS pause. Regardless of her suffering with suicidal thoughts, that is NOT their choice to make, ending her life. I could’ve bought it being self defense if they just said as much, but mercy killing? I don’t buy into that BS.

The brothers didn’t claim it as a mercy killing though. The psychiatrist Dr Oziel did and they just went with whatever he said to not reveal the abuse. And there was a lot of issues with oziel that were heavily discussed at trial. Including many other psychiatrists who spent a lot of time with the brothers and analyzing oziel’s tape who don’t approve of how Oziel handled the whole thing and disagree with his assumptions. Their defense hasn’t changed, it was always imperfect self defense due the the traumatizing of being abused by both parents that they were afraid for their lives in that last week.

How many times have you been the defendant in a criminal trial to be "Jaded" on the system? I'm just curious?

​@@tfs203pretty sure regular consumption of true crime alone could do that. because I'm the same.

So all children who claim abuse can shoot their parents? What about wives who claim abuse? What about groups of people who feel abused?

I was so into it too lol

Yeah bro!

I agree it's disgraceful, but it was sadly a different time and that type of defense was under heavy fire

Yeah, the abrupt ending made the video feel incomplete

​​@@ThatWriterKevinoh absolutely. I was a little kid in the 90s. When I was around 10, my great uncle (whom I had always felt weird around and avoided being alone with), groped my chest and I immediately got away and never went near him again. I didn't tell my mom because even at that young age, I just somehow knew my mother would either not believe me or silence me from ever speaking about it. Four years later I was 14, I decided to tell my mom as my great uncle had been dead for 2 years just because I wanted to talk about it. Do you know what my mother said? "Hush, that didn't happen." My childhood suspicions were confirmed. If I as a little girl in the 90s had suspicions I wouldn't be believed, I can 100% see why they may have felt that no one would believe them. What's really wild id that I told my grandma a few weeks later and she believed me because it turns out my great uncle had acted inappropriately toward my 16 year old female cousin while they were having a family pool party. So tgat means the family was aware great uncle was sketch, but because they worried about my great aunt, who he was also abusive to, they allowed him at family gatherings but didn't leave him alone with children. Things like that were just swept under the rug for decades. Unforgivable honestly

You're a real one

Reasonable doubt also applies here as to whether or not they planned to murder or planned to defend themselves. That's what each trial came down to.

Can reasonable doubt also apply to the reliability of testimony? Dr. Oziel for example who had a huge conflict of interest and was both sleeping with and manipulating at least one other witness who was also his patient. 😖

@@babyramses5066 Technically yes when it comes to evaluating evidence (all testimony is evidence. It's just about how reliable you find the testimony to be). As you pointed out there were many reasons why there was doubt surrounding Oziel's testimony and you didn't even mention everything. In this case you'd have to compare the things which suggest Oziel's testimony is reliable and the things which suggest his testimony isn't reliable. Then you weigh both of them to come to an answer about whether you find his testimony credible or not. Dr Oziel was never called as a witness in the second trial which tells you a lot. He was heavily discredited during the first trial.

Hope you enjoy the conclusion!

Yeah, I figured it was descript enough to get the point across already

Yeah :( it's kind of a false equivalency thing. Just like being rich actually made people hate the Menendez Bros more because they "had it easy"

No part of me thought he would have any idea what I was talking abotu lol

@@ThatWriterKevin you did good with this one and so did Simon and I forget who the video editor is.

And even more so, that Americans believe in it. I think it’s primarily foreigners that believe in it, only to have those dreams crushed (at least in recent decades.)

KZfaq is like drunk Skeletor sometimes, it's problematic but fun.

In a weird way, knowing their father abused the other might have affected them deeply, not just cos their brother was being hurt, but because their father likely told them their warped relationship is "special".

That's what she said

Agreed. I didn't realise before this video exactly how their upbringing had stunted their development but holy crap. Their mother did their homework because she thought it was quicker and easier to help them with it? How was that supposed to help them long-term? It's completely unfair that Jose and Kitty basically prevented them from learning necessary life skills but then blamed them for not being able to do stuff like get good grades. Of course they were failing everything: they had no idea how to study or work at anything!

@@haeronalda4136 completely agree! The parents are honestly so f*cking stupid for expecting the boys to excel when they taught them 0 life or academic skills. For so so many reasons, this is one of the worst examples of parenting I've ever heard of.

You're welcome!

Does anyone give a shit? No.

And it is just so odd that the judge didn’t allow the abuse to be used as a defense. Shouldn’t the issue of abuse contributing to the murder be a question for the jury to decide?

Hahaha 1. Don't stunt at the funeral 2. At least try to look sad

But they were rich before. Has anyone ever studied their spending habits BEFORE the murder? Wikipedia says that family members claimed their spending habits didn't change.

The first trial had a a good portion of the defense case go into handling the spending. For example, their aunt Marta testified that the boys were shocked when she said they would get the money in the will (they were told in September of 1988 that they were out of it) and they knew their father didn’t have his insurance policy through work since he didn’t take the physical, and they didn’t know about the insurance policy Marta took out on Jose. Their uncle Carlos baralt who was the executor of the estate and testified that Jose told him in spring of 1989 that the brothers were out of the will. Many defense witnesses testified that the spending wasn’t that different and the boys looked to all these adults in their lives for permission or advice on what to do with their money. Even the Rolexes Lyle called Carlos in the store and asked if he and Erik could get them and if that would be a good idea. Their uncle Brian (kitty’s one brother and him and his other brother were the only family to testify for the prosecution) even suggested doing real estate stuff with Erik.