Which always strikes me as an odd oversight. Really? The Defiant's armour was not documented?

@@CertifiablyIngame my headcanon is that, after the Defiant was more easily taken out by the Dominion than expected in the season three opener, and suspecting changeling infiltration, Sisko ordered O’Brien to upgrade it stealthily with resources local to the Bajoran sector, and possibly even used Quark.

@@kaitlyn__LI think that fits perfectly for a time period where Founder/Changeling infiltrators was strategy used by the Dominion as both effective covert intelligence and to sow distrust between Alpha Quadrant powers (UFP, Klingon Empire, Romans, et. al.) and creating internal strife within those governments to the point where even Starfleet officers didn’t know of they could trust fellow officers and Klingons adopted cutting themselves with their D’k thag to prove they weren’t a Changling.

Or they lied giving them a legitimate reason why they didn't destroy them. Even with the armor though all they had to do was targeting the same spot over and over again. They just didn't after all can't show how inferior the defiant is in comparison to an older ship.

@Valor1 Omega That's like saying I can beat this guy if I keep punching him in the same spot over and over. It only works if the guy doesn't move. Same with the Defiant, it was constantly moving and was much more maneuverable. The bigger ship might hit hard, but if it can't find a weak spot, or reliably hit a location more than once to make it weak, the power behind the strike doesn't matter as much.

worf wasnt trying to destroy the lakota only disable

Two blasts from the underside saucer phaser banks reduced the Defiant's shielding by 40%. That's alotta juice for an old ship!

Well, use the warp core from the defiant class, then you have enough power even in an old excelsior class

​@darthrevan1281 The same worf that couldn't hit simple targets even with advanced Targeting computer that can hit a moving target the size of a football (well at least the original Enterprise could), that Worf? If he couldn't disabled a Borg tractor/cutting beam which wasn't shielded I don't see him being able to do much to this ship.

​@@WhydoIsuddenlyhaveahandle Can you imagine how better the Miranda class would be with the Lakota refit package? We wouldn't need the defiant at all.

Gut the entire stardrive for an enormous warp core, line it with as many phaser strips as possible, replace a good portion of the saucer with a Nebula’s torpedo module.

to be fair if you had enough of them and had them armed to the teeth and not crew and controlled by the computer or a command ship of another tougher and larger ship they would be overpowered in their sheer number to slow an enemy they were deathtraps but if enough armed torpedos were on board the damage done when one went boom at point blank range would cripple most if not all enemies of the Federation

HAHAHAHAHA are u kidding me HAAAH theres no way in HELLL the Oberth would stand a CHANCE in the Dominion war era let alone against a Dominion battleship HAH i mean hell you are dilusional if starfleet would ever utilize Oberth classes in the Dominion war compared to Enterprise B varients of the Excelsior class let alone Excelsior 2 classes XD let alone why the USS Lakota which was known as a sister ship of the Enterprise B truely proved her worth not only in the Dominion war but other parts of cannon as well as STO before most likely being retired and replaced. Hence why this Enterprise B varient of the Excelsior class was named in honor of the Lakota tribe

Exactly, and the Lakota had only fired its upgraded phaser banks at that point. It still had a complement of quantum torpedoes.

I see this ship class and I roll my eyes. But at least it isn't as bad as the defiant.

​@@wlockhart I wish they destroyed the defiant and killing everyone but worf.

They did a great job making the Excelsior look like a clear upgrade to the Constitution. As soon as you see it, you know its the future of Starfleet. I was always kinda disappointed that the Enterprise-A wasn't an Excelsior-class.

​@@Helbore When I first seen it I remember thinking, "that ugly massive garbage barge is suppose to replace the Connie?" "Look at all that wasted space and cut out in the engineering hull!" "What's up with the ribbed neck? They plan on doing laundry on it? And later on "My god that stupid ship managed to do what Khan and the Klingons couldn't, it killed Caption Kirk!" That's the true legacy of the class, it killed Kirk.

Everyone knows that

@@SparkyP The children in Africa don't. Did you think about them?? No! Because you only think about yourself!!!

I was never much into DS9 as it was too much of a boring soap opera imo for the first couple of seasons. It got much better after the Defiant arrived though.

@@DanakarEndeel I agree to an extent. The first two seasons had a few good episodes but it really picked up in season 3 when the Defiant was introduced. The last two seasons, which were the Dominion Wars were the true gem of the series imo. I love TNG too, my fav if I had to pick. I grew up on that basically.🖖

@@_Omega_Weapon Yeah, definitely. Once DS9 was able to actually go places with the Defiant was when it started picking up and I really loved the Dominion arc. Also, TNG is the only series I wanted to own on blu ray (the other box-set being the complete movie collection); and I still have a large TNG banner in my bedroom that's been hanging there for over 22 years now (prior to that it was hanging in my old bedroom at my parents house). 😉

@@DanakarEndeel If you ever want to sell that banner let me know 😅

@@_Omega_Weapon Haha, no chance. It's not even that special though and I just checked Ebay to see they're still being sold. Turns out that Ebay still has some of them available. One in the US (Texas) is only $7,87 plus shipping if you act fast. The rest are around $20-$50 or so. 😉

Somehow, I like this better than a "one big refit experiment". That one series of semi competent officers in the great peace. Take care of her, Mark. One day the Federationay need her.

The Ambassador strikes me as being a casualty of its own success, after a fashion. Given the era it operated in and the systems we saw it use, I've always suspected it was the first major recipient of a lot of the modern TNG-era systems like phaser strips and the LCARS-compatible computer hardware. All of the systems were a rousing success, but over the lifetime of the Enterprise-C and the other initial flight of Ambassadors, there were so many revisions and refinements to the systems the class that the Ambassador itself ended up having the same problem the Constitution did with the advent of the Excelsior; not modular enough to take easy upgrades, not powerful enough of its own accord to be worth a major rework or the extensive refits required to keep it relevant for another 50 years. Especially not during the period of relative peace Starfleet was in, where the events surrounding the Battle of Narendra III were basically the most exciting thing that happened during that entire era. An era that didn't end until Wolf 359, which we saw on screen as occurring firmly during the Galaxy-class' reign as primary exploration ship. I wish we had actually seen more Ambassadors on screen, especially in the Dominion War where every ship was needed, but it's not hard to believe that only something like 8 or 10 were ever made and over half of them were destroyed or decommissioned by the time the Galaxy had supplanted them.

@@MrMcSpiff I've always shared the same theory about the Ambassador class, but you put it into much better words than I would have

I would love this! I really wish TNG would've been the stories of the Enterprise B instead of the big glass palace of the E-D

What is you Neural Link ID for shared thoughts ?

Well production is clearly way easier in the Star Trek universe future then the present day, it costs alot to refit production lines in modern times, and for buidling ships you have to rework drydocks sometimes to build a ship type, the US eventually switched to modular construction methods thus we can keep even 50 year old vessels like the Nimits class aircraft carrier upgraded enough for modern tech and fighter launch systems. In STar Trek you have replicators and being built on land or in space rather then the sea makes starships way easier to build and maintain practically anywhere, you could just bring up the materials, replicate the parts and drydock arms or organic workers can then put them in place. Overall just way more modular construction methods and different environment, look at how often a gero ship like the Enterprise can just come into drydock, get a refit and in awhile be back out on the frontier, or take serious damage and in time be looking brand new, or how often engineers can find a major problem and rework computers and hard systems to fix the problem. Overall STar Trek ships just last much longer then modern day Earth sea ships, plus the very nature of Starfleet means it's constantly making new discoveries and upgrades which it either tests in a new kimited produced ship or finds a reason to mass produce certain types of ships.

no enterprise b was destroyed

@@jessihawkins9116 in beta Canon, maybe.

@@vic5015 no it happen on yesturday enterprize

@@jessihawkins9116 no, you’re thinking of the Enterprise-C; that was the ship featured in “Yesterday’s Enterprise”.

@@digitalrailroader no it got destroy by the romulan protection the outpost klingons

Never knew that. Cool little detail!

That’s Starfleet messing with its captains. Like when the Voyager holodeck cast Janeway as the French Maquis leader and Chakotay as the military captain in The Killing Game!

For some of us it's the Battle at Greasy Grass.

@@witchdoctor1394 Indeed! Pezi Sla.

The type of refit seems like it was a one off cause it was prob very intensive to do so.

@@braddl9442 yes but I thought it made sense, Leyton had the ship refit as part of his preparation for the dominion war ,( his motivation for everything) it took only as long as two episodes in the show, ( she delivered sisco, went into space Dock and was finished and fighting defiant in the next episode, ) weeks will have passed. But over 6 hundred starbases, and around 2 years till the war begins and over 2 more years of war , it would be logical to upgrade as many ships as possible, the ship yards were busy , it would be s strategic mistake not too , and it's not like star fleet was mass producting advanced star ships and war time variants of galaxy and nebula and pulling ships upgrading hundreds of ships from the moth ball fleet ( reserves) and they had a borg incursion and a klingon war before that . , I remember when the promethus was finished her regenitive shield system was made s fleet wide upgrade. , the federal is more than capable of it . Economicly. Time is the only variable. Time in spacedock or orbit of a star base . Or station . In 4 or 5 years why every excelsior class ship in the fleet could have been upgraded. Especially as star fleet militarised. The star fleet budget would be between 4 to 20 times its normal amount. , manpower resources, ect .

Agree with most of this video, too (except the launch date - more like 2333?)

@@shanenolan5625 There lots of things that we should have seen in DS9 that we didn't. For example the Defiant class Starship should have been mass produce given their effectiveness against Dominion ships. We should have seen some of the Federation newest ships engage in the battle of DS9, or at least a statement that Starfleet will only be committing their older vessels to the campaign.

@@DavidKnowles0 yes ? In the video he made about the defiant class. Or in beta Canon, they said star fleet, ordered defiant class vessels to get a mass produced, , or to build as many as possible, there was something about making 12 per year at utopia planeta. So 24 from that ship yards. But mention was made of antares or the other 2 two research and development shipyards or the other shipyards. ( in that video) . Like in nemesis, the battle group ( galaxy wing ) that was on the way to assistant enterprise. Had the uss valiant. ( defiant variant ) I'd argue they had several dozen battle groups. Each with one st least, and in voyager we see two escorting a akira , which makes sense. Nesr the romulan border, promethus was developed at antares, a small ship with around 50 crew , that was do effective against the jemhadar and klingons , and against the borg , I'd be building as many as possible, speard them out to protect starbases or convoy escorts or to mass for s borg incursion

Halo rightly demonstrated what a single photon torpedo sized antimatter warhead can do to a large orbital platform or unprotected capital ship. Now imagine a spread of them fired off like tic tacs spilling out of the container.

I remember one DS9 episode where Chief O'Brien recommend destroying an Iconian gateway with a full spread of quantum torpedos. I believe he said it would destroy everything in a 800 km radius. But this is just from my memory.

Star Trek sort of does this, but if enough tech changes at once you'll need to modify far too many internals to make it work so you may as well start from scratch. Just look at all of Voyagers new shiny things

Well, at some point, there's only so much you can do to modernize and update older vessels before you're better off starting over with a new design. The scale and scope of the overhauls becomes such that you might as well take the time and effort needed and build something new And the cost becomes prohibitive too.

@@vic5015 eventually new becomes cheaper than refurbished

@@M33f3r yup. If the needed upgrades are too extensive, it's no longer cost effective.

I think by STNG they were probably working on each frame lasting a average century or more. The Borg change that, an the Federation realise their galaxy class space frames which they use on the Galaxy and Nebula and California classes was in need for a upgrade already.

They were.

There were only two Excelsior class refits and the Enterprise -B was decommissioned.

Dockyard space limits what you can do

To ne fair, spaces has different physics, old the reasons for Naval designs doesn't exist in space. Not unless you want to make up some technobabble for subspace "aerodynamics", so to speak.

@@vic5015 quite right. Space and shape is so much different when physics are at play. But I do admire lines and angles on Excelsior. She reminded me of a WW2 rounded battlecruiser hull up a neckline to a very 80s styled catamaran linked upper hull.

The issue more than likely was that refitting a ship not designed for the phaser arrays would be too labor intensive as you would have to rebuild every place you fit a array along with redesigning the entire energy distribution system since each array is made up of dozens of phaser emitters.

no

Well, now that a Canon Exceksior II class exists, they may well retcon Lskota that way.

Most TNG era Excelsiors don't have quantum torpedo launchers, the extra warp coils, type 10 phasers, and enhanced structural intergrity grid so they definitely wouldn't have lasted as long against a Defiant class as the Lakota did in Paradise Lost.

@@tachyontee3877 Good point

@@tachyontee3877 how do you like the new design for the excelsior in STO

Pretty sure the model for the Enterprise-B has some modifications to rhe original Excelsior model. In fact, I heard that despite attempt to reverse the modifications. The visual effects people were unable to. And that, as a result, all post-Generations Excelsiors seen on screen are of the Enterprise-B subtype. Up until the later seasons of DS9, when they started using CGI models over old-school models miniatures.

all of Starfleet's ships are warships, they just don't think of them that way. Some ships are just better armed than others. A sensor system designed to examine spatial anomalies can scan for cloaked ships. Phasers can be used for mining if calibrated properly. all things can be weapons when used as weapons. Any ship at the receiving end of a barrage of phaser fire and photon torpedoes does not care if Starfleet ships are warship.

It will never be fully repaired

That's almost like the bullshit the makers of NuTrek say all the time. I call it lack of creativity.