You answered my question about short serves. Thank you for your explanation, this makes sense to me.

This is why you’re the Pro and we’re not!!! 😂 Thanks for sharing all this valuable information! I’m AMAZED by how many people (bangers) have never watched a PB training video. Trying to figure out all this strategy on your own is like reinventing the wheel!!! People are shooting themselves in the foot!!!

As a beginner, the main thing I got out of this video is to get to kitchen asap after return of serve. The other day I was playing against a guy who had a lot of spin on his serve and it was killing me on the return. I finally shortened up the distance some and got to the ball sooner to just get it over the net. But I did so and knew to continue to the NVZ. Again, main thing I got from the video is to get to the kitchen after returning the serve.

@@Bergarita yep, you’re correct. The main takeaway needs to be to get to the kitchen line every time. That’s the major problem we’re trying to solve here.

@@rjsophia3712 I agree, I see it all the time as well. Having an open mind and a learning mindset can be such a valuable skill in life. Even after 4 years I’m still learning new things about Pickleball everyday. That’s what makes it fun.

Love it! Keep crushing it out there 👍

I sure hope I can play as well as you when I get to 83. 😃

That’s awesome! I love it that you’d have an open mind enough to implement a new strategy in a tournament. I’m glad it helped out. Way to go 👏

Yeah, for sure. I’m with you in that one 👍

Thanks, I appreciate it 😊

Thanks AJ, I appreciate the support!

I sure hope so 😀. That’s my goal

Thanks so much 😊

Yeah, same here. Most courts I play on don’t have enough room so I’m usually backed up into the fence or curtain as much as possible.

Hitting long loopy returns is almost like having a cheat code that few people use. I hit backhand 2nd shots with side spin and forehands with top spin or little spin. They have to generate their own power for the 3rd shot drive and the bounce from a loopy return seems to move them back a step. All this allows plenty of time to get to the NVZ which is the entire goal. I used to enjoy trading baseline drives with the server but that is a 50/50 proposition at best. Getting to the NVZ while they are at the baseline gets me to 60/40 or better advantage.

Thanks Rick. I appreciate that. 😀

You got it!

Love it!! Glad to hear it’s making a difference. Some times little adjustments can make a big impact.

Hope it helps. 👍 I’m sure it will!

Thanks for watching! Happy to hear it helped you out 👍

Yeah, I definitely have to do that. I’ve been planning on doing those videos for a while and keep getting sidetracked.

You bet Rick! Thanks for watching

Let me know how it goes. You can do your own tweaking but it’s a good starting point to ensure your always moving forward.

Please see my response above.@@johncincolapickleball

Will do! Thanks 😊

That's Awesome! I live to hear it

Yeah, Eden is a beast. That was a super fun match. My partner Andre played great down the stretch!!

Agree 100%. Even if you then barely do return the short serve, it's a low to high return, giving your opponent a nice opportunity to slam his next shot.

Hey Thomas, I would definitely agree with the points that you made. Positioning is going to depend on level/ quality of opponents serve/ and mobility. In general I wanted the main takeaway to be to not stand in a spot where your first step has to be be back away from the court. If you’re doing that you’re going to struggle to get to the line even with a high floaty return. Always allow enough space for forward movement.

Thanks Ken!

Thanks Josh 👍

No problem!

Thanks Scott!! Yep I’m in Mchenry which is about 20 minutes south of the border.

Glad it was helpful!

Yeah, good question. For every other shot I would agree with this. As a matter of fact I’ve got a whole video on the subject of slowing down and pausing before each shot. The return is the outlier though. It’s crucial to get to the kitchen line behind your return so the risk reward is worth it. By taking a more compact swing and using your momentum to create the power you can get to the line quickly while still keeping a high level of consistency. Hope that makes sense.

@@johncincolapickleball Also, you’re hitting a return of serve off the bounce. All other returns may or may not be hit out of the air. Using a split step helps you prepare for the shot. But with a serve, you know it’s got to bounce and, more importantly, you know the serving side also has to let it bounce before sending it back. If you return with a deep loft, they can’t slam it back ‘unexpectedly’ from the baseline.

Thx for the Spinshot settings/machine placement. You’re the reason I purchased a Spinshot. Love your teaching style with the why and the how. You also seem great about answering questions. I will try the shorter backswing/ and keep my momentum moving forward in tomorrows P’ball match. As a 20 year tennis player it will seem strange but your purpose makes sense

Let me know how it goes. You can think of this as the equivalent of a chip and charge in tennis.

Fresh cut 😊

Thanks, John! It made a huge difference getting to the kitchen line.

That’s awesome Deanna! It’s usually a pretty easy fix that can have huge benefits. Glad to hear it helped 👍

Thanks Jorge!

You bet!

Yeah, find what’s comfortable. The main takeaway needs to be that you need to find a spot to stand that you Never have to step back as your first move.

Thanks 😊

Not really as far as positioning is concerned. For singles I usually hit my return as more of drive and a bit more aggressive. In doubles I’ll still hit deep but it’s ok to float the ball a bit more.

Hopefully it helps out. Stick with it!

@@johncincolapickleball it did! I did not get hit tonight haha, thanks John!

Yeah, I see that quite a bit as well. I don’t know if there’s enough there to warrant a whole video but the basic idea is you should be on the baseline or maybe even a step behind when the opponent is returning. A lot of times the momentum of the server will take them forward so they’ll actually have to take a step back after the serve.

@@johncincolapickleball Totally understand. I want to say that I really enjoy your video series. The information is practical and I like that I can put the tips to use the very next time I play. Thanks!

Really either can work. Kind of depends on your mobility and how quickly you can get to the net. Us is ally what I do is I have deep consistent return as my standard. If my opponents are making a run or in a good rhythm in their 3rds then I’ll try to apply a little more pressure with the return to mix it up.

@@johncincolapickleball I'm an aspiring (close) 4.0 player, and I watch a lot of 4.5 and 5.0 matches online; I notice very little effort at big serves and almost no effort to rip returns. Seems like top amateurs playing against each other have determined too much risk for very little reward, and they're basically just 'starting the point', knowing that by and large the quality of 3rd shots will be the most critical factor in gaining advantage or not. Is that what you see?

It is approximately 21 feet to cover, that is not very far at all, most men that is about 4 steps

When back that far you should be looking for that short serve. It’s possible to tell before that serve is hit by the back swing and arm speed then you can start moving forward

It seems like you’re giving up more space but since we start moving forward when the opponent strikes the serve you have forward momentum going which actually makes it easier to get to short serves.

Not with the spin I’ll have on it… Usain Bolt wouldn’t be able to get it

@@lymedog3176 that's just a lie, you cannot get much spin on it anymore without imparting it with your off hand before contact

The timing isn’t different. I did the whole thing in one take without changing any settings. When I demonstrate it the correct way I have the video slowed down so you can better see the technique. Where as when I show the wrong ones the video is regular speed. Try comparing the timing with the ones at the very end of the video. Those aren’t slowed down.

@@johncincolapickleball ok I couldn't tell. Sorry about the comment.

Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I forgot that. At the pro level we rarely see short serves. I know that my opponents are trying to go deep basically every time because they know short serves are ineffective

The return of serve is the only shot in Pickleball that your moving through like this. It’s the only shot that you want to get to the net regardless of the outcome of your own shot. When your transitioning as the serving you need to wait and see if your shot is good before deciding if your going to advance forward.

You could drop it short. It’s not a rule that it needs to be past the kitchen. However, you wouldn’t want to do this because then you’re bringing your opponents to the bet and giving away your advantage.

Yeah, I usually will go right at it and slide under it with my backhand and try to push it deep.

@@johncincolapickleball i really appreciate your instruction videos! Big thanks! 👍🏻👍🏻

You can always adjust you position if your having trouble getting to short serves. The main takeaway needs to be to put yourself in a position that you never have to take a step backwards to return a serve. You should position yourself that your only moving forward.

Well, now that I watch the rest of the video, I'm definitely going to try this. What I hadn't factored was starting the run early. I know the pros don't do this, but some of the rec league players serve with massive side spin that generates a huge kick to the side when the ball lands, including balls hit deep almost to the baseline. Maybe part of the solution is to be prepared to hit the ball extremely low with half-volley if you suspect it's going to kick hard off the floor, perpendicular to your established momentum. Or maybe I should play more often with opponents who practice any other part of their game.

I did go out and try standing 6 feet back from the baseline for return of serve, against a bunch of grizzled rec veterans who were determined to prove they could short serve until I gave it up. First observation: Holy smokes, did I ever gain the net fast! Second observation: It's a bit of an art form deciding how hard to launch at the time the serve is struck. Third observation: If you're being short served and the ball has enough kick to jump sideways, getting your initial line of sight in the right place really helps a lot. I was having more success anticipating the adverse kick when I was running pretty much directly toward the ball, on the ball's line of flight. Fourth observation: I had a bunch of my service returns go right through the paddles on the other side, because they weren't factoring in my forward momentum at the time I impacted the ball. This was in some other games against lower level rec players, who aren't great, but are good enough (normally) to never miss the ball entirely. Fifth observation: Once you prove you've got the wheels to exploit these short serves, they will stop testing you pretty quickly. But you need good wheels, and you need to be able to hit soft, angled, accurate chips from the top of your socks at a dead run. It's not that hard to do, especially if your opponent is frozen behind their own baseline for fear you will hit the ball much harder. The accuracy required is moderate, and the failure mode is not too severe. I was already getting the hang of this in my first test session. Meanwhile, my opponents were dialing in short serves with a sideways kick, landed to both front corners of my return-of-service court. The arms race was inconclusive. But honestly, I'm already facing their best stuff (from the short serve department) and I've barely dialed in my own technique. In the long run, this can only go my way.

Depending on mobility, where players stand may need to differ. Most set up too close I agree. The idea on position at return is mostly about making the first step lateral or ideally forward, never backward. Allowing less mobile players to learn to short hop the ball at or near the baseline is important to their success. The pace of the return needs to be related to the ability to get to the kitchen. Setup, first step, pace of ball, speed of player - all work together and the return isn't over until the player is at kitchen line in a stable position.

Yep, that’s exactly correct Kyle. The main takeaway should be to position yourself in a way that your first step never has to be backwards. If you’re playing a weaker server you could be further in.

Because you are starting forward when they are hitting the ball. It’s actually easier to get short serves because your already moving forward.

Perfect, then just keep doing what you’re doing. 👍

It’s there. Top link in the description box. Here it is again just in case. spinshotsports.com/discount/john

That’s understandable. You can always adjust your position based on the quality of the serve. If you start playing better players your going to see deeper severs more often.

Agree

You got it 👍

Ughh, I’ve been on more than a few courts like that. It’s tough.

If you are starting your forward momentum at the right time you should still be able to get those short wide ones pretty easily. This is where almost all pros/high level players stand and you can watch hours and hours of footage and probably never find a clip of someone getting aced or having trouble returning a short or wide serve.

@@johncincolapickleball maybe it’s just us 65+ folks that are getting too slow to get there (ha ha). I do notice that when I am playing younger people, like my 20 year old son, his reactions are so much quicker than mine. If I don’t place my shots perfectly (which is more common that perfect placement) he easily gets to them. I do find that many 65+ folks are pretty good at pace and placement. Thanks.

Yeah, normally that’s true. This is the 1 shot in Pickleball where I recommend you moving through the ball. We minimize inconsistency by compacting the swing and using our body eight to be the source of power. Go back and watch AJ at the beginning of my video and you’ll see what I mean. 👍

That’s a good question. I’m usually about a step behind the baseline after the serve. The reason you wouldn’t be further back like a return, is with a return you know you’re going to the kitchen line 100% of the time you can get full momentum towards that. As the server moving forward is dependent on whether or not you hit a good 3rd shot so you can’t really be just moving in no matter what. Hope that makes sense.

@@johncincolapickleball Im talking about the Server who usually ends with position right on the baseline waiting for the return at the baseline, which if the returner has the deep return causes issue. Maybe lineup to serve a foot or two from behind the baseline and give some room for a deep return?

Perfect, I’m hoping you serve it short. Makes it way easier for me to get to the kitchen line.

That really only works against boomers or fat people. Short serve makes it easier for me to pop off a nasty slice and be at the kitchen

If your opponent has good mobility, a short serve just doesn’t put that much pressure on them. Just invites them up to the kitchen line faster. Of course, if you are playing folks with limited mobility, then yeah, it would work.😊

Doesn’t work at the upper level. Why do you think we continuously see the top players go deep on the serve.

Short serve is death in advanced play. You might catch somebody by surprise sometimes but if they're advanced players they'll watch more intently and move up rapidly, have great shot placement opportunity from a short serve, and then they'll be completely prepared at the line in ready position for your third shot drop or drive or whatever.

🤣 sorry I let your secret out of the bag. Great to hear that it’s helping out. This can be a big change to try to implement sometimes.

You bet 👍