“Our beloved monsters. Enjoy yourselves.” I swear, that line feels like it’s meant for us.

looking back at that ending, I can easily see why people think Raiden was in a VR simulation for the entirety of the game. ArsenalGear crashes into the city, Solidus and Raiden have a sword fight and then Snake and Raiden have a conversation in the middle of the street still wearing sneaking suits and wielding guns and swords... but not one person shows them any attention. And I'm inclined to agree. Raiden and, by extension, the player wants to believe that they have won and that they are now free from AI control. they want it so much that they're willing to ignore the obvious discrepancies in their environment.

the music, along with the philosophical dialogue, always creeps the shit outta me

I love philosophical talks such as this. It's a big reason I like mgs as a whole. The ideologies and social commentaries are presented in a very interesting way.

I was 15 when I played this game for the first time. This conversation...actually the whole ending turned my whole virgin world upside down. An intense feeling i've never felt again since then and I fucking miss it :(

When I played this game for the first time when I was a kid I didnt understand any bit of the AI conversation because it didnt make any since to me at the time. But now I'm 25 years old and I understand every bit of the AI conversation.

Rose's subtitle 9:35 actually said "You have to beLIEve me" !!! The MGS games are terrific.

Find something worth to pass on... Even if reality is disheartening and ideals are flawed. I truly believe in the goodness of people to figure out what is right. This game will be one of my greatest inspirations.

Dude you should analyze the part when Rose and Raiden talk. VERY IMPORTANT! :p

I commented this elsewhere but I wanted to share my opinions here too: This cut scene makes me think a lot. About the truth behind free will, the capabilities of humanities, and extent of our ability to understand. Despite the overwhelming amount of information given, the most important thing, or to avoid contradicting myself, the easiest thing to interpret is the dangers of half truths. Interpreting something incompletely or only to fit one's needs is damaging to not only the growth of the person but society as a whole, and this type of mindset is everywhere. Despite people thinking that they are objective, media, organizations, and affinities they align with influence their decisions on what is they feel is important, without whole understanding what is presented. Even this behavior is present in interpretations of this scene, whether it be against political correctness, the belief that AI is vastly superior than human beings, or the presence of secret organizations in society. Doing exactly what they are preaching against incomplete interpretations. People chose what they deem to the most important to their point, mostly being the first 5 minutes of this sequence, only to present to their peers, with similar opinions, continuing to confide themselves in their gated communities. But what really made me think about this is what side is right in this conflict. Considering the context of this scene, the patriots thorough this game have been painted as the bad guys in this game, so should their speech be disregarded as radical nonsense and the AI gives this speech as their system is glitching out so is this the true intentions of the Patriots and an actual message from Kojima or just a glitch, or but with the proof of the patriots' presence and control throughout MGS, is it another example of our reality, our truth, not being true? Does it do this scene enough justice to put things into terms as basic as right and wrong, is it simply the AI's, a entity free from the detriment of emotions, observation of the flaws of humanity. However still the question must be asked for our simple interpretation of life, is complete freedom even attainable and is the method we do it correct. The AI criticized humans but AI, technology are only the extent of humanity, we build what we are able until we can make something greater to replace it. Humanity can adapt but at this moment most AI can only do what it is programmed to do. The Patriots' AI was built to analyze humanity the logical way, however that is only one way! Raiden asks a very good question that they do not answer, what defines what is the most important, does the one with the most results, however that is still only one way, there is still prevalence with emotion, feeling, and intuition. But we most remember the true context behind this information as this was created by men, incomplete creatures defined the AI and were influenced to created this analysis; however they could have made this as a critique for themselves as well. However in many was this analysis is incomplete and should not be considered the word of God. But there still is some truth to it, and it creates even more questions like is it even possible for humans to completely interpret information and what would be the result. Is Kojima telling us that it would create a superiority complex like the Patriots and their AI? Or is this whole wall of text just another half truth? Nobody truly knows but the men and women who created this themselves, however this may exercise one freedom we have. The freedom to interpret.

5:07 fission mailed !!

I've actually met him and tried to see if I could get an interview, he was on a tight schedule though so I couldn't really get him for a few minutes but he's a great guy and he actually seemed interested in talking about this role he did.

Someone has probably pointed this out already, but evolution doesn't mean improvement. This is a popular misconception. Evolution simply means change. If you swap out evolution for improvement, by what metric are you measuring these things? It's going to be fundamentally subjective, no matter what you think of (because you, a human, are thinking of it). Including strictly quantitative stuff like 'continued existence of the human family tree' or 'maximum utilisation of nearby solar energy'. Ultimately an AI, whether a copy of the human brain in structure, or an original creation, will be coloured by human nature or human intentions, which are of course... subjective. The argument that strong AI is suited to be world dictator based on their superior effectiveness at improving humanity is not tenable, because the idea of improvement is not natural, it is artificial (man made).

Their mentioning of free will was separate from their talking about self. They were illustrating the human ego, you don't have to be taught it, it just feels good when you're praised for doing things "by yourself" because we have things like self esteem that are based on if we're emotionally satisfied with ourselves. But of course we immediately dispense with that to try and blame other people if it helps us save face. It's just a crutch in a way to protect our self esteem.

These games SUBTEXTS were what made it great, and not their front story. I love the series as a whole but for a lot of the fans, lots of the subtext and messaging within each individual title is lost on them. From a Subtext and message stand point, MGS2 still stands as one of the best in its series. but 3 over all as a game is the best one in my opinion.

This is why I love MGS

Please continue to make content. This was a beautiful analysis

Wow I need to play this game again, it's amazing how different it seems as an adult, it makes a lot more sense now too.

Well here's a true test to this and it happened to me and many for some of you. --- When the malfuntioning a.i colonel said - turn the game console off right now? Weird as this may be, it's actually true through the use of digitized information through human senses. What i didn't expect was to see colonels face turned into a skull with the on-set of very weird calls, that... through fear and emotion consciously made me turn the console off as a young pre-teen. Does anyone follow?

Great videos man, part 1 and 2 were great. This reinvigorated my wanting to play through these again, Last time I played MGS2 was when I was like 11 years old. A lot of these concepts went right over my head, but I knew there was something there. I played it many times, and was upping the difficulty. Now I'm going to play to appreciate the ideas within the game. Thanks again for the videos they were great

"Our beloved monsters. Enjoy Yourselves!" (As the AI looks directly at the player and breaks the fourth wall). Every time I play through this game that part gives me chills.

Gotta say, this whole 2 part vids was rather intriguing. Thanks for this educational lesson.

Thank you for this. I played this game as a kid, and the ending melted my mind. I could not wrap my brain around that conversation and it left me speechless for the majority of the remaining day. Watching it now, really brings back a lot of good memories about this game, and really helped me finally understand what was going on here. THANK YOU!

This is a very well thought out and highly executed video. I hope you'll get to make more when you have the time.

I dont agree with telling people what they can and cant give their attention to, but damn those AI are asking the real questions! "Does something like a self exist inside of you?" They're giving an Eckhart Tolle-style breakdown of how the ego, or "self" works within us. Didn't know this game went that deep.

Yep this game was definitely intriguing to say the least.

Thank you KZfaq algorithms! Ebert was definitely wrong about games not being art. I was a kid when this game came out and was completely blown away by just this section. It was probably this very conversation between Raiden and GW that got me into philosophical concepts. It's a shame that people look at things without experiencing what it has to offer before judging it. This was my first entry into the Metal Gear/Kojima verse, and I had been hooked ever since. Love him or hate him, Kojima knows how to tell a story. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't directed a movie yet.

8 years have passed and this is still a big favorite of mine. Now I have to dig out my PSVita and replay all the MGS games I have on there.

Great video! I loved the entire metal gear series.

i was 11 when i first played mgs2 when it came out, i was like " cool... let me fight solidus". ten years later i played it again and my respect for mgs2 went even higher after that convo. i understood a number of the concepts discussed on their own, but how Hideo carefully and meticulously arranged them together in a cerebral exercise to conclude this underrated or forgotten chapter of the series. thank you for this video, you explain this better than my efforts to get my roommates to like this

AH! MY favorite Serie and still i am learning new things about it. Thank to you you helped me understand MGS 2 Better. And because of you i am gonna go replay MGS2 on my HD collection.

WOW!! This video is amazing. I myself have put alot of thought into this conversation that takes place in MGS2.

@ThanklessExpediency Always glad to get someone else interested in MGS. It's definitely my favorite game series.

I'm glad you mentioned Bunnyhops video man it's really interesting I watched it a few times in fact and I agree there's always that element of freedom of choice that Kojima gives the player so they can come up with their own theories. Also something to add to Rose's existence anyway is that she was a spy who completely changed the way she acted and looked to fit Raiden's interests so the persona of Rose is an illusion in more ways than one! Looking forward to how deep MGSV is going to be!

I consider this video a great example of what youtube videos should be, entertaining and educational. You are a man I would love to hang out and chat with, especially regarding AI, which I don't know a lot about lol. I look forward to more of your uploads :)

To be fair, Snake only told Raiden to find SOMETHING to believe in, and find it for himself. When Raiden asked him what to believe in, Snake just told him that's his problem. "Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself, and when you do, pass it on into the future." "Believe in what?" "That's your problem." Snake only helped Raiden with the first step. What came afterwards was up to Raiden to figure out for himself. In MGS4, Raiden chose the path of a soldier, even going as far as becoming a cyborg ninja. However Snake pulls a 180 and tells Raiden what he told him wasn't exactly what he meant. Snake was referring to passing on everything he learned as a child soldier to his family; making sure that his kids understood everything he went through so that his kids wouldn't have to go through the same trauma. A counter argument could be that Snake never knew Raiden would have a kid, but he still wanted the very best for Raiden and to settle his affairs with Rose. "No. There are still some things you need to take care first... And people you need to talk to." "I have no future. In a few months, i'm going to be a weapon of mass destruction. But you... You still have a family." "You still have your youth. Don't waste it! You can start over again. I... We torn the world apart, made your life a living Hell. It's my duty... to put an end to all of this." Snake wanted Raiden to have a life, something that a clone bred soldier could never have; he did try to live a normal life in Alaska, but he was called back out of retirement. As a clone bred specifically for war, Snake can never retire or find peace. This was Snake's meme: a soldier fighting for a future completely freed from nuclear tyranny. Raiden's meme was to protect his family and fight for his right to live as his own person instead of a tool.

@paocomovo Absolutely, Snake in MGS2 is really when he hits his stride and finds his purpose in life. I get the feeling Kojima projected his own feelings onto Old Snake in MGS4 which changed Snake's character dramatically. Kojima was tired of being forced to do the franchise and felt like everyone was telling him what they wanted explained so he just did to get it over with, Snake reflects that.

This video reminds me of how affected I was by this game when I first played through it with my friends when I was ten or eleven. It really bonded us, I think, to have these insanely deep and interconnected concepts to discuss at such an early age. We definitely recognized how this game provided something that we weren't going to get out of elementary school. Unfortunately high school was also a massive let-down in that respect. MGS2 and Ender's Game made me want to change school for the youth.

Thank you for going through this conversation so well. I am a huge supporter of MGS2 as the epitome of "art in video games" and have been making similar statements to yours to people I know who don't understand the medium past tetris/Angry Birds. Roger Ebert should be ashamed that he has never played Metal Gear Solid 2.

What a masterpiece MGS2 is. Everytime I get to the ending it blows my mind again and again It's crazy to think that this game is now more than 10 years old, especially since the thematics within it still hold true today and probably will for decades to come. It's truly a testament to how videogames can be more than just entertainment, that they can transcend even the greatest of books, films and music. And the most important part of course is that it's still a fun game and experience.

Incredible video! Keep up the good work!

You're correct. I wasn't clear in my original post. What I was referring to by taking it to it's "extreme" was what is often known as hard determinism, not simply determinism. There are those who ague that there is a form of determinism is compatible with free will; Compatibilism. I do agree that by accepting science you are implicitly accepting some form of determinism. I'd argue that in theory you could predict virtually any event if you had a sufficient understanding of the forces of nature

Man, i like your analysis about this conversation! i am a big fan of MGS series and the story! I will follow you! This it's the only scene in the series that you are face to face with the patriots! GREAT!!

I've listened to this Codec conversation a million times and I still get chills everytime.

Another neat detail is that when they talk about S3, a distorted version of the Theme Of Solid Snake from Metal Gear 2 (not this game, the 8-bit game from like 1990) plays.

One of the best explanations for one of, if not, the best philosophies i've ever encountered. I applause this video

im remember when i first heard this , it was so much truth behind it, i started to look at mankind somewhat different,hell i looked at myself differently .. glad u you took the time to make this ..

Hey Logo I just wanted yo say your videos are very good. When i first played MGS2 I was..13 I believe. So the whole conversation blew past me but When I replayed Mgs2 In HD I understood more of it but not all of it. Your videos allowed me to grasp what Hideo was talking about during this conversation. So thank you for making these videos and helping me to understand MGS2 and ,by extension, a bit more about the world.

Excellent video my friend!

Started watching it the first time you mentioned it, thanks.

This was a turning point in gaming. Just as 'Man with a movie camera' and 'The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman' did for Film and literature respectively, being the first standout pioneers of postmodernism in their respective mediums, MGS2 was the first standout title to excersise the idea of postmodernisim and is still the greatest to date. Whereas games such as Spec Ops: The Line and Stanely Parable are also great examples, nothing I have seen has yet topped the majesty of MGS2.

Want to play it again now that i understood the argument. Thanks for the videos!! 💞

10:31 thank you for acknowledging Twin Snakes and Portable Ops

thanks for the comment mate:)you're so right, i felt like raiden when i played the game especially when i came to this point, MGS series is an unbelievable gem

I was 12 when this game came out. I grew up with Hayter as solid snake. At 12 years old when I got to this part of the game it actually scared me. At first I thought someone seriously hacked into my ps2 somehow then I sat and listened to the whole thing. Crazy how I understood what it was getting at then and it has come to pass now... crazy....

When i heard this discussion on the game i didn't think it had so much meaning in it until now. This just practically blew my mind

Weirdly enough, everytime just before Steve starts talking, the choir raises!

@darthkahn45 You make a good observation. Considering everything it's not even possible to know for sure where one ends and the other begins. It does seem that the human rose at the end of the game after this conversation has knowledge of at least a good deal of the codec conversations, as to why an AI might have taken over, when, and how rose ended up there it's mostly just creative license on Kojima's part to resolve their subplot in a timely manner.

Wow, quite the analysis, my friend. Thanks for explaining this part of the game. I remembered when I first played this years ago, it scared the crap out of me hahaha. I wasn't used to a story that was this complex. Kojima-san is a genius. Thanks again for sharing this.

If by one light you mean on a certain level yes, and that's the point. The best villains ultimately are ones that are actually or at least arguably right although it's hard for some people to admit it. This is certainly the best example of that I can think of.

Of the canon MGS games it's probably the last one I'd recommend based on importance to the series and in general quality. You really didn't miss anything by skipping it, the only story event in it that even has any relevance to future events is that during it Big Boss meets Grey Fox for the first time and in the game it's mostly a minor detail anyway. The whole crux of the game was that the CIA and the pentagon were having a fight over the rest of the philosopher's legacy that wasn't found yet.

Fantastic interpretation

Great video. Subbed! This is a subject completely relevant to my interests.

Vary nice break down, I am impressed.

I was 9 when I played this game. I remember being frightened by the philosophy. Also the skull face added extra creepiness to the mix. I had only a tenuous grasp of what they were talking about then but now it's much more interesting.

Really interesting. I wish I could add something to the discussion but I honestly can't add anything at the moment. I can only say that when I first played through it, I wasn't as shocked about story and the discussions involved near the end. I guess it's because I've read up on similar topics as well as reading the classic"Nineteen-Eighty Four" novel. However, I do admit it took me awhile to fully understand it after replaying the game as well as watching similar videos to this one.

@gamephreak5 The argument that LogosSteve is trying to make about video games is the artistic reaction that it provides... similarily in the way that a book can provide entertainment and a moral effect or theme. In the case of Metal Gear Solid 2, the game doesn't act JUST as a tool of convenience to satisfy our entertainment needs, but makes the intellectually competent player realize that a story as psychologically compelling as this one can only be told through a video game. That is art.

thank you. thank you for making this :)

Kojima's greatest genius in writing really IS making the Patriots in 2 do what we consider the wrong thing that isn't really wrong and for the right reason.(2 doesn't actually necessarily dispute this). That's what makes good villains and that's what I think will be remembered as his finest moment, not any of that easy "AIs being rational caused all these problems" narrative I really get the impression he was forced to take in 4.

Granted I suppose it could be argued the cutscene that introduced the gameplay mechanic of recruiting people helped Snake develop into Big Boss but that's early on, you can watch cutscenes from the game on youtube anyway.

It's cool I understand, I finally graduate from college in just a couple weeks so I plan on (I can only hope) being able to post a video weekly on this channel as well as a couple other channels with completely different content, and I have a movie I'm going to write, direct and produce (small independent movie) while I save up money to go to LA.

LogosSteve, you are awesome!! THANK YOU!!

The game MGS, the way it's played out, is the version Raiden plays for training. The incident at Shadow Moses did go down, but MGS2 plays the original game off as the actual simulation.

You never realize how deep these Codec conversations are until now. When we were playing MGS2 in high school, all we cared about was the action. Now we understand all the cutscenes and codec conversations like this. Damn it's deep. A shame games like this are rarely made these days if at all and crap like CoD is shoveled out every year.

You're a fantastic commentator. Thanks for the vid.

They are saying that because we get to choose what we believe or don't believe, we can also CHOOSE who we want ourselves to be, or at least choose which aspects or portrayals of who we are that we wish to present to others. They are asserting that because we have control over "who" we are in terms of what other people see, nobody is actually genuine 100% of the time. In theory one could completely become somebody else in terms of what they decide to show people. Thus making "self" a mask.

@SqueakySamurai I think this really hits the nail on the head with respect to Metal Gear in general though, I picked what I thought was the best moment in the series to analyze and talk about. I might do something later about MGS3's themes or the reason that MGS4 was the way it is but I think there are other fish out there to fry.

@IronJackalTw You're forgetting the part where I consider the interactivity of video games itself to be art, it's just also nice to point out that they make skilled use of it in ways that has been done in the media before it to compliment the interactivity which is something even Ebert should be able to understand. When D.W. Griffith made Birth of a Nation which innovated narrative storytelling in movies he pointed to literature as inspiration and was told not to do it, look how that turned out.

This was amazing

@freshaca3 The video you're thinking of is the original youtube posting of just the conversation itself which does have that many views, the link's in the description.

Sony should buy the MGS franchise from Konami and let Kojima develop a new MGS6. But wait, is that even my idea? Who’s controlling me?

Something I never did get about this ending was Rose. Obviously Rose wasn't an AI all along as she talked to Jack about things only they would know and he sees her at the end of the game where she says "see me for what I am ok?" but 09:37 made me think she is like Campbell, being corrupted by the virus, therefore an AI not to mention attempting to lure him into the trap in AG by shouting "help!" plus being a part of campbells discussion. Where does Rose end and the AI Rose begin, if at all?

I'd have been interested in your take on Rose. As her existence (and the ramifications of the conclusion) is one of the central mysteries of MGS2. I'd request more testing thought than simply citing MGS4 (since MGS2 was a closed loop at the time and the arbitrary MGS4 has questions over it's creative integrity).

I always come back to this every once and a while first saw it at 16 I'm now 27.

Where are your other vids! i enjoyed that ! :)

Thanks for the video. Amazing that I played and beat this game at 12 not really understanding what was really going on.

yeah this was a great video and it ties in with another one i found on here a while ago explaining how solidus was the good guy in a weird way :)

@LogosSteve It would be really awesome if you made more videos analyzing the brilliance of MGS2.

I thank you for this Up clearing Video back then I didnt understand one thing when I played this and I was still too young to understand now that I have played it again on the HD series I kinda had a thoguh of what they were saying I really really thank you for clearing this out and explaining what thought process Kojima had when making this Conversation.Thank you

@SqueakySamurai Hah, yeah shoot I did say that didn't I? Well I appreciate the support and I will do more videos soon, for sure after I graduate in May I'll have no excuse not to make more videos on a much more regular basis.

@ErnestMas Thanks, I appreciate it.

@LogosSteve Ok, i think you're right. Another thing i noticed is Snake's character in this game, he is not a "pawn" anymore like he was in the first , his resolve and motivations he shows when "lecturing" Raiden makes his image very plausible. I didn't feel that in MGS4, most of the time he just stands there when other characters tell him what to do or explains the plot. That's one of the reasons i think MSG2 Snake's is the best, even though you don't play with him most of the time.

Holy crap,you got me thinking now. My brain will implode.

Am I the only one who caught the word scramble "fission mailed" to not be so innocent? Its far more scary than I thought when I first played the game.. Think about it, Fission.. (nuclear reaction),.. Mailed (delivered).. Holy. Shit.

@SolarFlare416 You're very welcome.

Nice analysis.

I like the way the speech itself can apply to many characters in the game. Individuals selectively develop convenient half-truths in order to make him/herself feel better or protect their own self-stem, the AI goes as far as saying there is no such thing as a "self". Fortune could have died whenever she wanted, but she was feeling so much pity for herself that she never truly tried. Olga could have retired and live with her son, but she couldn't let go of the battlefield. Raiden/the player.

This is the remake we need!!!!!!

I would be interested to hear from you an analysis of similar themes presented in the first Deus Ex game, released in 2000. I feel there may be some similarities and differences between the Patriots AI and the Helios AI that are worth looking at.

oh... I remember when Raiden said that he went trought the shadow moses simulation.